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Myrmex
2009-04-07, 01:23 PM
Are there any fixes to the CR system out there? In an optimized druid, cleric, wizard, skillmonkey party, NPCs without caster levels are severely over CRd, as are monsters that don't fly or don't get multiple actions/round.

RandomFellow
2009-04-07, 01:26 PM
I've never seen any good ones.

My advice is test encounters when dealing with optimized players.

Pile on the NPCs (or optimize caster-monsters like Nagas) until characters start dying in the test encounter and then back off.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-07, 01:31 PM
I never use the CR system, I just estimate for my players...They usually end up with some pretty good fights. I only use CR for estimation purposes.

Myrmex
2009-04-07, 01:37 PM
I never use the CR system, I just estimate for my players...They usually end up with some pretty good fights. I only use CR for estimation purposes.

Neither do I, but a set of guideline would be nice.

Eldariel
2009-04-07, 01:41 PM
It's possible to reconstruct the CR system to be relatively accurate, but that would require "pricing" every spell at a given caster level, and overall all the special abilities of the monsters. Still, you could just build some logarithmic table that basically just makes a proportionate reduction to the CR of opponents without magical abilities over a certain point - say CR5.

So something like "cut the CR of every non-caster opponent of over CR 5 to 3/5th of the original value, to the minimum of 5" might work. That said, I find whole CR to be wholly unnecessary - just toss things that fit the story and the environment at the PCs and they'll cope. Some challenges may be too much, but that'll just give PCs drive to try even more, and generally they can escape or use non-combat means to survive such encounters anyways.

Deepblue706
2009-04-07, 01:53 PM
I suggest that you consider what monsters of appropriate CR do, in fact, provide fair challenge for the group, and use what you can observe from them to your advantage in creating further encounters. Creatures with immunities might endure a lot of the punishment your group can dish out, and customizing them to the proper CR may provide a reasonable challenge.

This link might be useful: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

If non-caster NPCs are unable to provide enough challenge under normal circumstances, I also suggest giving these opponents tactical advantages; which do not translate into CR, but might still make a seemingly pitiful enemy into rather dreadful (look up Tucker's Kobolds).

Eldariel
2009-04-07, 02:14 PM
If non-caster NPCs are unable to provide enough challenge under normal circumstances, I also suggest giving these opponents tactical advantages; which do not translate into CR, but might still make a seemingly pitiful enemy into rather dreadful (look up Tucker's Kobolds).

Actually, MM states that auxillary factors making the fight more difficult than normal (such as ranged opponents attacking from barricades/cliff or the party being surrounded by melee types in the start of the encounter), or opponents being more difficult for this particular type of PC (such as undead vs. Rogue) should be treated as a 1-point (generally) CR increase.

Myrmex
2009-04-07, 02:16 PM
You know how the classes break down into tiers? I was thinking something like that. Casters tend to be really good against most monsters that come right out of the book, since they have a bunch of lame feats and don't fly, were built with 15pb, and don't have any class levels.

Replacing stuff like cleave with lifesense, mindsight, or martial study makes monsters way more dangerous.


Actually, MM states that auxillary factors making the fight more difficult than normal (such as ranged opponents attacking from barricades/cliff or the party being surrounded by melee types in the start of the encounter), or opponents being more difficult for this particular type of PC (such as undead vs. Rogue) should be treated as a 1-point (generally) CR increase.

Sure, that's what the MM states. But it's a flawed system, everyone know it, so why bring it up? This is from the same people who recommend you take toughness or dodge.

If the party is going to get extra experience from non-magical creatures cleverly defending their lair, then you should dock the wizard xp for spamming solid fog or glitterdust every encounter.

Chronos
2009-04-07, 05:23 PM
...NPCs without caster levels are severely over CRd,...This is really just another symptom of the problem that casters are more powerful than noncasters. Fix that first, and then we can take another look at the monsters.

Deepblue706
2009-04-07, 08:43 PM
Actually, MM states that auxillary factors making the fight more difficult than normal (such as ranged opponents attacking from barricades/cliff or the party being surrounded by melee types in the start of the encounter), or opponents being more difficult for this particular type of PC (such as undead vs. Rogue) should be treated as a 1-point (generally) CR increase.

I must have missed that bit! Although admittedly I was already doing that. Maybe I did read it a long time ago and simply forgot, and presumed it was my idea to begin with. :smallconfused:

In any case, I do believe this principle works to some extent (else I would not advocate it); the DM will, however, need detailed knowledge of the PC's capabilities when determining what kind of scenarios are most appropriate. I have little doubt the developers would not have made the idea more specific than "generally" a CR boost of 1 due to the variable strengths of individual party members as well as the group's overall power; bowmen firing off of a cliff will obviously matter little when the wizard has overland flight, the paladin is riding in on his giant eagle, and the rogue is flanking from atop a flying carpet. However, if only the wizard can reach them, then things might go awry, and the wizard may end up having to spend more resources than the encounter would typically require.

Myrmex
2009-04-07, 09:13 PM
This is really just another symptom of the problem that casters are more powerful than noncasters. Fix that first, and then we can take another look at the monsters.

Ehh, I'm not really a fan of 4e.


/rimshot

Chronos
2009-04-07, 09:49 PM
Ehh, I'm not really a fan of 4e.I didn't say to make everyone the same weird hybrid of caster and non-caster; I'd like a system where both exist but are balanced.

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 12:29 AM
I didn't say to make everyone the same weird hybrid of caster and non-caster; I'd like a system where both exist but are balanced.

Me too. But that would require a lot of work. I've been thinking a lot about how to make everyone good. It basically requires the ditching of huge amounts of spells, or moving them up 1 to 5 levels.

I was more thinking this could be useful for describing actual encounters in regards to a discussion of the efficacy of a particular build:

Person A: "This build is really great at this and this!"
Person B: "What if the DM uses that instead?"
Person A: "Then he does that with a previously unmentioned this...."

And so on.

Juggernaut1981
2009-04-08, 12:49 AM
Most monsters were built with a tactic in mind.

As the DM you should be pushing the chosen tactics of the monster. Plenty of my playgroups learned to fear the concept of a band of Kobolds in a forest, even at 5th or 6th level... Why?

Kobolds make half-assed borderline randomised traps. These may include: pit traps, acid traps, arrow traps, poison traps, net traps, thunderstone traps... etc, etc, etc. Any half-ass quarter-baked idea that will require basically a piece of string, something that hurts and maybe a nail is Kobold Tech (TM). So, you set up a ****e-load of the damned things in an area and have the Kobolds run around taking pot-shots at the party while they avoid losing their barbarian to a pit trap, their wizard because something more dangerous than a House-cat attacked it and their Rogue (who has been shot at several times because he said the words "I'll make a Search check" during combat... [insert 10 combat rounds here])


If you play a Kobold like its a Frost Giant... bye bye Kobold.

Chronos: I sat my ass down and started doing it. Might post it up here once I've PDFd it and finished more of the spells. Still need to write about 120+ spells and designed a whole suite of common magic items.

Chronos
2009-04-08, 01:39 AM
Me too. But that would require a lot of work. I've been thinking a lot about how to make everyone good. It basically requires the ditching of huge amounts of spells, or moving them up 1 to 5 levels.Or playing up the vulnerabilities the spellcasters already have. The biggest balancing factor in 2e, for instance, was that spellcasters could have their spells disrupted, but between the change to the initiative system, the Concentration skill, and the five-foot-step, that's become basically impossible in 3e. I have had a few ideas for putting it back in, though, which could be implemented more or less regardless of what spells are in play.

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 10:30 AM
Or playing up the vulnerabilities the spellcasters already have. The biggest balancing factor in 2e, for instance, was that spellcasters could have their spells disrupted, but between the change to the initiative system, the Concentration skill, and the five-foot-step, that's become basically impossible in 3e. I have had a few ideas for putting it back in, though, which could be implemented more or less regardless of what spells are in play.

That's not necessarily the biggest issue casters have. It's that at level 9, they get Fabricate. It's still taking me a week to make a suit of armor. Mages should get Fabricate about the time I routinely make DC 40 craft armor checks. For every class feature in the game, there's a spell to emulate it, at a lower opportunity cost. This needs to change.

Satyr
2009-04-08, 10:43 AM
I didn't say to make everyone the same weird hybrid of caster and non-caster; I'd like a system where both exist but are balanced.

Me too. But that would require a lot of work. I've been thinking a lot about how to make everyone good. It basically requires the ditching of huge amounts of spells, or moving them up 1 to 5 levels.

While I cannot give a better solution for the CR problem than " just use it as a suggestion and come up with XP amounts bound on how difficult one particular fight was and how smart the player fought, I can at least offer a solution for the vast difference in power between casters and mundane characters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102346)

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 11:19 AM
While I cannot give a better solution for the CR problem than " just use it as a suggestion and come up with XP amounts bound on how difficult one particular fight was and how smart the player fought, I can at least offer a solution for the vast difference in power between casters and mundane characters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102346)

Looks promising. I'll give it a read through later. Thanks for that link.