Prestige Classes and Spell Progression

[AngelOmnipotent]

I've never fully understood the wording used in any source book when mentioning a Spellcasting-based Prestige Class.

For example from the SRD: Arcane Trickster -
Spells Per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Now I read this as gaining spells per day as if you gained a level in your spellcasting class even though you haven't, gaining caster levels for the purpose of spell effects, but not actually gaining new spell levels. For example a (Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5) can cast 3rd level Arcane spells at CL 10.

However by looking at any examples of characters, and by using common sense, this isn't the case. A (Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5) would be able to cast 5th level spells with a CL of 10.

Then I look at Prestige Classes such as Arcane Hierophant and think to myself "Why the hell would people take that" unless, of course, they gain access to higher level spells from both classes.

Can someone put me straight as to whether or not you gain access to higher level spells without taking levels of your base spellcasting classes with spellcaster-based prestige classes? Or does it only happen like that with some prestige classes and not others? :smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

This has been brought up before. Do note that a wizard can learn spells from means OTHER than leveling up, such as scribing scrolls, copying spellbooks, or idependant research. A druid/cleric automatically knows all spell each level, so he gains knowledge when he reaches the apporpriate spellcaster level. That just leaves sorcerers and bards (and similar spells known classes) getting boned.

I really think this was just a copy/paste + editing mistake. Sorcerers already walk in the shadow of their big brother, the wizard, no need to beat them up as well just cause some idiot at WotC with a double digit IQ and a triple digit income has issues with the drag and drop interface.

I've always just ignored that fact. If a caster gets +1 spellcaster level from a PrC, they get spells known acording to what there level in the spellcaster class would be, including spell swaps if applicable.

[Ernir]

Also, this is not universal, it seems. From the SRD too, on the Archmage:

Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

This is repeated for the few CArc PrCs I checked, at least. Looks to me like the Arcane Trickster was either the victim of a copy-paste mistake or an awful, awful nerf. :smalleek:

[Ashdate]

I'm preemptively calling 'ninja'd'...



Now I read this as gaining spells per day as if you gained a level in your spellcasting class even though you haven't, gaining caster levels for the purpose of spell effects, but not actually gaining new spell levels. For example a (Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5) can cast 3rd level Arcane spells at CL 10.

However by looking at any examples of characters, and by using common sense, this isn't the case. A (Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5) would be able to cast 5th level spells with a CL of 10.

Here's what is says for the Arcane Trickster (and most prestige classes that add to a character's magical power):


Spells per Day

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

What it's telling you is that your caster level IS being increased, but that is simply a side-effect of gaining better spellcasting ability. Essentially what this paragraph is telling you is to take a spell-casting class you know. Your spell per day is equal to your base class + Arcane Trickster level.

The "as if you gained a level in your spellcasting class" encompasses not just Caster level (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) for that explanation), but learning new spells and spells/day. Note that a prestige class doesn't lift conditions; A Conjuration Specialist wizard who dropepd Enchantment and Necromacy with a 14 int would still be unable to cast Enchantment or Necromacy spells, nor cast level 5 spells.

Thus, a Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5 would gain spells and be able to cast spells as if he had gained 10 levels in wizard.


Then I look at Prestige Classes such as Arcane Hierophant and think to myself "Why the hell would people take that" unless, of course, they gain access to higher level spells from both classes.

Can someone put me straight as to whether or not you gain access to higher level spells without taking levels of your base spellcasting classes with spellcaster-based prestige classes? Or does it only happen like that with some prestige classes and not others?

This might be where your confusion comes in, because not all prestige classes actually ADVANCE spellcasting.

An Assassin for example, adds just a number of 'spells per day' according to the prestige class; previous magical ability is completely ignored.

A Dragon Disciple is an even weirder case; You need spellcasting ability to get into it, and you get a bonus spell every level except levels 3, 7 and 10. these bonus spells however DO NOT increase your spellcasting progression; You're simply getting the ability to cast an extra spell from any level of spells you can currently access.

Essentially? Read the prestige class. If you see a description that says something like "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" you're increasing your spellcasting as if the base class you chose while entering the prestige class. anything else and you're probably getting something entirely different.

Also, one last warning: Some prestige classes specify the type of casting (arcane, divine, spontaneous, etc.) that the prestige class improves. Archmages for example add "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" (thus it can't advance a character's divine casting). Strangely, an Arcane Trickster can advance Divine spellcasting (but you still need to be able to cast a 3rd level arcane spell and Mage Hand to enter).

That was long-winded.

- Eddie

[Chronos]

Gaining spells per day as if you had gained levels in the other class covers getting access to higher level spells. For instance, a 9th-level wizard has one fifth level spell per day, so a 5th-level wizard/4th-level PrC also has one fifth level spell per day.