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View Full Version : Worst PrC EVAR contest (accepting nominations)



Darth Stabber
2009-04-08, 08:29 AM
Thats right Nominate the worst PrCs in the game for special recognition

Rules of nonimation -
-No truenammer PrCs, their issues are with their system, not the PrCs themselves.
-Published by WotC
-Must be mechanically bad, Good yard stick, would you rather take an odd lvl in fighter or another lvl in this.
-If it is a good dip, it doesn't really qualify, looking for PrCs that are just terrible from 1-10.

First Nominee
Witch Slayer - melee PrC that if focused on fighting binders and possessed creatures, Blech

FinalJustice
2009-04-08, 09:04 AM
From the top of my head:

Tempest - Screwing a TWFer even more? Rather keep taking Fighter for the feats.

Arcane Archer & Dragon Disciple - No caster progression? Really?

Shining Blade of Heironeous - Rather keep the sluggish paladin spell progression than spend 5 levels to light my beatstick 3x/day.

Rainbow Servant - Standard Sorcerer entry, following the FAQ recommendation of keeping it 6/10, sucks beyond measure. You give up four caster levels of your already slowed down progression to get some domains and the hability to add a few cleric spells to your list? Please.

Baalthazaq
2009-04-08, 09:18 AM
Are we only doing worst as in weak?

Otherwise I vote Radiant Servant of Pelor simply because if you have the prerequisites, there is never a reason to not take it. It's just Cleric... with more. You lose nothing.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-08, 09:19 AM
Greenstone Adept. Because hey, who needs a con score anyway?




Rainbow Servant - Standard Sorcerer entry,
You're not supposed to enter it as a sorcerer. It becomes pretty interesting when played with a Beguiler or Warmage. You mention "a few cleric spells" but that statement overlooks that you get all cleric spells.

Darth Stabber
2009-04-08, 09:40 AM
Otherwise I vote Radiant Servant of Pelor simply because if you have the prerequisites, there is never a reason to not take it. It's just Cleric... with more. You lose nothing.

Actually RSoP has a d6 hit die as opposed to d8, now this means very little, but strictly speaking you lose an average of 1hp per lvl.

Okay, so still no compelling reason not to take it. The reason that I think it got printed was to give people a reason to make clerics of pelor, because before that class saw print I never saw anyone pick pelor as a diety, not even NG characters with nothing divine on their sheet except the deity blank. Pelor is supposed to be one of the major gods for humans, so they printed a fairly buff PrC to give him the edge he needed to get back his flock.

And yes the point is to nominate mechanically bad PrCs.

FinalJustice
2009-04-08, 09:41 AM
You're not supposed to enter it as a sorcerer. It becomes pretty interesting when played with a Beguiler or Warmage. You mention "a few cleric spells" but that statement overlooks that you get all cleric spells.

Yeah, I am aware of the potential of the RS. What I was referring to was entering it as a regular Sorcerer, so that you can pick up cleric spells (and swap to cleric spells) at a loss of four caster levels. I have the feeling that the standard Sorcerer entry is the actual intention of the class, rather than the whole 'spontaneous casting all the Cleric spell list' of Beguiler or Warmage entry.

Edit: Ninja'd, adding quote for better clarity.

Faleldir
2009-04-08, 09:42 AM
Cancer Mage, not necessarily because of mechanics (I never played it), but because the name is misleading. It's not a spellcaster who gives people cancer, it's a filthy hobo with some once-per-days that can be done better with magic.

Albonor
2009-04-08, 09:49 AM
entropomancer still has a special place in my heart: give up 5 caster levels in exchange for doing 7d6 of damage and controling a specific artifact if you find one?

Please.

Otherwise, what is so bad with a tempest? No penalty to hit with two weapons, you get a few bonuses to AC, weapon feats apply to both weapons, tw-spring attack. It synergises amazingly well in a fighter8-exoticweaponmaster2- revenant blade 5- tempest 5 build. suuuuuure you need to be an elf....

jcsw
2009-04-08, 09:56 AM
Are we only doing worst as in weak?

Otherwise I vote Radiant Servant of Pelor simply because if you have the prerequisites, there is never a reason to not take it. It's just Cleric... with more. You lose nothing.

Planar Shepard.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-04-08, 09:58 AM
Greenstone Adept. Because hey, who needs a con score anyway?

I'm going to have to second that nomination.

Ryuuk
2009-04-08, 10:03 AM
Witch Slayer - melee PrC that if focused on fighting binders and possessed creatures, Blech

I'd just like to speak up of for the Witchslayer. Its smite might be situational, but that's not its only class feature. Slippery Mind and Mettle are decent, but its capstone is what really seals it for me. Once every five rounds, block a creature's Supernatural, Spell Like and Spellcasting abilities for 1 round as a swift action. The DC's not bad either, 20+Cha at level 10. If you're up against something that depends on magic and this lands (and even if it didn't, it was just a swift action), then 1 round is really all it takes.

Draken
2009-04-08, 10:07 AM
Witch Slayer is not really bad.

Witchborn Binder (MoI), on the other hand. Is terrible.

Incarnum Blades also add nothing to your character.

Green Star Adept is also bad in ways that shouldn't exist (You not only are losing your constitution score, you are also reducing your dexterity score)

But ever since I read the Necromancer Handbook in Wizard's forum I have special spite reserved for the Yathrinshee, possibly the worst dual caster ever made (if it can be called a dual caster).

JackMage666
2009-04-08, 10:10 AM
My favorite is Survivor, from Savage Species - Sure, you get Improved Evasions, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and all good saves for 5 levels, but you also get no spell progression, 0 BAB, a d6 HD (which kinda defeats the purpose.) and you don't even get to add any new class skills to your list (and have the lovely 2+Int/level anyway.)

The only thing I could see as fun with this class is a Commoner 1/Surviver 5, for that Commoner that just doesn't die.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 10:19 AM
True Necromancer. I want to stab whoever created it in the eye with a FORK. Mystic Theurge should never be a better option.

potatocubed
2009-04-08, 10:21 AM
The Greenstone Adept is humungously bad. You lose Con, Dex, spellcasting progression... you gain... a pleasing viridian hue?

I also think the Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty dreadful. You have to multiclass egregiously to qualify for it (bard/rogue/druid, right?) and then you gain... nothing you couldn't have gained better by staying in whatever class you were focussing on.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-08, 10:26 AM
Undead Hunter was pretty bad, if I remember right... No insentive at all about killing undeads...

Baalthazaq
2009-04-08, 10:28 AM
The Greenstone Adept is humungously bad. You lose Con, Dex, spellcasting progression... you gain... a pleasing viridian hue?

I also think the Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty dreadful. You have to multiclass egregiously to qualify for it (bard/rogue/druid, right?) and then you gain... nothing you couldn't have gained better by staying in whatever class you were focussing on.

That was going to be my vote if it was for mechanically bad, Fochlucan.

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 10:40 AM
Exotic Weapon Master from 3.0's Master's of the Wild.

Requirements: +7 BAB, 3 exotic weapon proficiencies
What you gain over 5 levels:
Proficiency with all exotic weapons
The ability to craft an improvised melee or thrown weapon that you take no penalties with, that does 2d6 damage.
Full BAB

These abilities are gains slowly. So when you are tenth level in this class, you get the ability to sit down for an hour and fashion an improvised throwing weapon out of twigs and rocks.

The sheer inanity of this class is overwhelming. Compare that to the Hexer in the same book, which has full divine progression, full BAB, and a bunch of uses of eyebite like effects.

What the hell is wrong with the people publishing these books?

Texas Jedi
2009-04-08, 11:15 AM
Exotic Weapon Master from 3.0's Master's of the Wild.

Requirements: +7 BAB, 3 exotic weapon proficiencies
What you gain over 5 levels:
Proficiency with all exotic weapons
The ability to craft an improvised melee or thrown weapon that you take no penalties with, that does 2d6 damage.
Full BAB

These abilities are gains slowly. So when you are tenth level in this class, you get the ability to sit down for an hour and fashion an improvised throwing weapon out of twigs and rocks.

The sheer inanity of this class is overwhelming. Compare that to the Hexer in the same book, which has full divine progression, full BAB, and a bunch of uses of eyebite like effects.

What the hell is wrong with the people publishing these books?

That and the Exotic Weapons Master had one of the ugliest drawings showing the PrC in a book full of ugly drawings.

The first attempt at a Bladesinger was horrible. I remember just reading it and saying that is crap. They recovered a little when they re-released in one of the Forgotten Realms books. I don't remember specifics but I think it gave you full BaB and the ability to use a sword while casting. I will have to pull the book out to truly remember how much it sucked.

arguskos
2009-04-08, 11:21 AM
I've voting for the Yathrinshee and the Greenstar Adept, classes SO bad that Hell itself spat them out and said "DA-YUM!! This **** be FAIL!" :smallcool:

I mean, REALLY, the Yathrinshee is the WORSE dual-progression PrC ever made, and dual-progression is typically terrible to begin with. Greenstar makes you PAY for the privilege of sucking harder than an Oreck vacuum.

Ascension
2009-04-08, 11:26 AM
My favorite is Survivor, from Savage Species - Sure, you get Improved Evasions, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and all good saves for 5 levels, but you also get no spell progression, 0 BAB, a d6 HD (which kinda defeats the purpose.) and you don't even get to add any new class skills to your list (and have the lovely 2+Int/level anyway.)

The only thing I could see as fun with this class is a Commoner 1/Surviver 5, for that Commoner that just doesn't die.

I was also going to say Survivor, but really it's just a gimmick to create a more durable commoner. I can see no reason for anyone to even think about employing one in a game ever. I think the bad PrC crown should go to something that at least looks like a good option initially.

lord_khaine
2009-04-08, 11:38 AM
i vote for Arcane Archer, i personaly find it worse then GTA.

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 11:56 AM
Agreed that Witch Slayer is fine. It gets a lot of bonuses against possessed creatures, and that's pretty darn situational, but the rest of the class is solid enough.

So yeah, here's the tier system for PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618) that I've been putting together this last month. For the lazy, here's the list of the worst PrCs we've covered so far....



Acolyte of the skin
Apostle of Peace (not broken, but blatantly contradictory text on material possessions)
Arcane Archer
Blighter
Cavestalker (Druid entry)
Defiant
Dirgesinger
Duelist
Entropomancer
Evangelist
Eye of Lolth
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips)
Green Star Adept
Incarnum Blade
Insidious Corrupter (Arcane Spellcaster entry)
Lifedrinker
Master of the Unseen Hand
Metamind (higher with abuse of the capstone)
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)
Ollam
Reaping Mauler
Spinemeld Warrior
True Necromancer
Wavekeeper
Witchborn Binder
Wonderworker
Yathrinshee

Starbuck_II
2009-04-08, 12:10 PM
Greenstone Adept. Because hey, who needs a con score anyway?



He said dip classes no count:

Greenstone is a dip class: take a level for some DR/Str/NA: really who finishes it?

Starscream
2009-04-08, 12:34 PM
Blighter, hands down. You don't get your daily spells unless you destroy a bunch of plants. It even makes a point of saying that places like deserts and ice floes do not count.

Gods forbid you're adventuring in any terrain that doesn't have tons of vegetation around. No caves, dungeons, cities. Nothing from Sandstorm, Frostburn, Underdark or Stormwrack (unless you can get to a ton of seaweed).

And what do you get in return for this huge, possibly campaign-halting sacrifice? Not a whole heck of a lot. You can turn into skeletal animals and talk to dead ones. Yeah, that's right, you can converse with roadkill. Whoop-de-doo.

Keld Denar
2009-04-08, 12:35 PM
I'm gonna vote again for Shining Blade. Worse than a Soulknife, your primary class feature is "has a weapon". To get it, you have to give up 1/2 casting?!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and its a standard action to activate your weapon, but guess how long it lasts? Not freakin long enough. And...what do you get? A shocking weapon. Shocking isn't really that good. Demons are immune to electricity, and most devils get Resistance5+ at least. Granted, Holy is slightly better, but think about it. If you had continued progressing in Paladin or Cleric, you could spend that same standard action to FREAKIN CAST ALIGN WEAPON, or better yet, Bless Weapon. Maybe if this class had its own fast Paladin progression like Pious Templar, it might be worth it for a general melee class to take, simply because it doesn't have the crappy feat requirements like Pious Templar does.

Ladorak
2009-04-08, 12:46 PM
Evangelist all the way, no freaking point at all...

Telonius
2009-04-08, 12:47 PM
Dwarven Defender. "Oh no, it's a Dwarven Defender! Walk away briskly!"

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 01:21 PM
I'm gonna vote again for Shining Blade. Worse than a Soulknife, your primary class feature is "has a weapon". To get it, you have to give up 1/2 casting?!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and its a standard action to activate your weapon, but guess how long it lasts? Not freakin long enough. And...what do you get? A shocking weapon. Shocking isn't really that good. Demons are immune to electricity, and most devils get Resistance5+ at least. Granted, Holy is slightly better, but think about it. If you had continued progressing in Paladin or Cleric, you could spend that same standard action to FREAKIN CAST ALIGN WEAPON, or better yet, Bless Weapon. Maybe if this class had its own fast Paladin progression like Pious Templar, it might be worth it for a general melee class to take, simply because it doesn't have the crappy feat requirements like Pious Templar does.
You mean those weapon boosts aren't permanent? :smalleek: Even if they were it's on the weak side, but... .wow. I'm AFB, but if that's true then it's definitely a major turkey.


Dwarven Defender. "Oh no, it's a Dwarven Defender! Walk away briskly!"
Seriously? I mean, the class still gets d12 HD, two good saves (and the two best good saves), a healthy AC bonus that stacks with everything, decent DR (as far as D&D DR is ever decent), and uncanny dodge. And Defensive Stance is still useful any time the Battlefield is at all Controlled, or when you're indoors, or in a dungeon, or on a bridge, or can anticipate a dangerous attack and could use a temporary boost to AC or saves. Also, it's a swift action to assume it and a free action to leave it, so you're not exactly trapped in the spot if the situation changes. Overall I'd say DD is at very least balanced compared to straight fighter, and probably somewhat superior if played well.

togapika
2009-04-08, 01:31 PM
Dread Witch....
So they have to cast a fear spell at me so I can.... cast a fear spell at them?

Zaq
2009-04-08, 02:04 PM
Dread Witch....
So they have to cast a fear spell at me so I can.... cast a fear spell at them?

I disagree. I've played a Dread Witch before, and the fear absorption is the least of their abilities. Adding fear effects to spells for free, tasty boosts to fear save DCs, and oh, what's this, the ability to punch through fear immunity? Yes please! Also, the enormous boosts to Intimidate checks are a lot of fun. I had the scariest gnome you've ever met!

I nominate Blighter (it'd suck even WITHOUT the deforestation requirement, but it looks so cool...) and Reaping Mauler (the grappling class that requires Medium or smaller! Woooo!) as my choices. Those are the easy ones, though... I know there must be others. Let me think. Dragon Samurai, from Miniatures Handbook, is pretty lame, but more in the sense of "absolutely nothing interesting" more than "actively bad." Storm Disciple (Complete Psionic) is pretty bad, but I don't know if it can compare to the Blighter. Holy Scourge (Complete Mage) imposes the paladin ass-stick on you and doesn't really give you anything in exchange. I recall a lot of the ones from Planar Handbook being bad, but I don't remember any details.

Kris Strife
2009-04-08, 02:05 PM
Fleshwarper: Needs houseruling to be playable, has a cross class skill requirement.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-08, 02:17 PM
I'm going to join in the pile-on against Green Star Adept. It makes you pay 9,000 gp for the privilege of losing Dexterity and Constitution and caster levels. It might not be weakest PrC - Survivor really is pathetic - and if you plan it out right (start with low CON and STR, and higher starting DEX than you want to end up with, so it saves you points on point buy) it's kinda workable, but playing it from the beginning as it slowly messes up your build and makes you pay for the privilege is just offensive.


entropomancer still has a special place in my heart: give up 5 caster levels in exchange for doing 7d6 of damage and controling a specific artifact if you find one?

Please.

Arrgh, that class is like a knife in my heart. I love its fluff so much, and its crunch is so terrible. I've seen fixes for it, though, like giving it full BAB and letting it summon a Sphere of Annihilation.

Zaq
2009-04-08, 02:25 PM
Ah yes, the entropomancer. I've always wondered why an entropomancer has to be non-good, but is perfectly free to be lawful. Entropy IS chaos!

Ladorak
2009-04-08, 02:41 PM
Seriously? I mean, the class still gets d12 HD, two good saves (and the two best good saves), a healthy AC bonus that stacks with everything, decent DR (as far as D&D DR is ever decent), and uncanny dodge. And Defensive Stance is still useful any time the Battlefield is at all Controlled, or when you're indoors, or in a dungeon, or on a bridge, or can anticipate a dangerous attack and could use a temporary boost to AC or saves. Also, it's a swift action to assume it and a free action to leave it, so you're not exactly trapped in the spot if the situation changes. Overall I'd say DD is at very least balanced compared to straight fighter, and probably somewhat superior if played well.

Totally agree, certainly not overpowered but weak? No way

Most melee fighter builds can be overcome by walking away from them after all, especially Dwarf ones

Mr.Bookworm
2009-04-08, 02:43 PM
Hospitaler.

You get Remove Disease 2/week, a weak Lay on Hands ability, all over ten levels.

Oh, and then you get saddled with a Code of Conduct.

Utterly worthless.

Person_Man
2009-04-08, 02:47 PM
I'm going to go with Illumine Soul, from the Complete Psionic (a book which is horrible in many, many respects). Requires that you have 3 levels of Soul Knife. Provides 3/5 BAB and some minor, once per day abilities against undead, all of which are weaker then low level Cleric spells. Even if you're playing in an all undead all the time campaign, it sucks.

Tokiko Mima
2009-04-08, 02:56 PM
I would say Risen Martyr. You have to be dead to take your first level in this class, and it blocks all advancement in any other PrC. You need a very specific useless Feat to enter (hope you took it before you died!) As it's capstone, you lose control of your character forever. Basically, it makes XP your enemy! :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 03:03 PM
I'm gonna vote again for Shining Blade. Worse than a Soulknife, your primary class feature is "has a weapon". To get it, you have to give up 1/2 casting?!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and its a standard action to activate your weapon, but guess how long it lasts? Not freakin long enough. And...what do you get? A shocking weapon. Shocking isn't really that good. Demons are immune to electricity, and most devils get Resistance5+ at least. Granted, Holy is slightly better, but think about it. If you had continued progressing in Paladin or Cleric, you could spend that same standard action to FREAKIN CAST ALIGN WEAPON, or better yet, Bless Weapon. Maybe if this class had its own fast Paladin progression like Pious Templar, it might be worth it for a general melee class to take, simply because it doesn't have the crappy feat requirements like Pious Templar does.

Agreed. I was looking at it, and was stunned at how awful it was. I just turned it into a martial class for crusaders.

Myou
2009-04-08, 03:05 PM
I would say Risen Martyr. You have to be dead to take your first level in this class, and it blocks all advancement in any other PrC. You need a very specific useless Feat to enter (hope you took it before you died!) As it's capstone, you lose control of your character forever. Basically, it makes XP your enemy! :smallbiggrin:

Wow, what book is that from? :D

wadledo
2009-04-08, 03:11 PM
I'm going to go with Illumine Soul, from the Complete Psionic (a book which is horrible in many, many respects). Requires that you have 3 levels of Soul Knife. Provides 3/5 BAB and some minor, once per day abilities against undead, all of which are weaker then low level Cleric spells. Even if you're playing in an all undead all the time campaign, it sucks.

As a dip(or finish) to a soulbow in an even moderately undead focused campaign, it's pretty decent.
It's either that or take more levels in soulknife, and that gets you nowhere.

Chronos
2009-04-08, 03:13 PM
I also think the Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty dreadful. You have to multiclass egregiously to qualify for it (bard/rogue/druid, right?) and then you gain... nothing you couldn't have gained better by staying in whatever class you were focussing on.It's kind of an odd case. The class itself gives you pretty much everything you could ask for: Full BAB, six skills, and full advancement of both arcane and divine spellcasting. If you qualified for it, you'd be a fool not to take it.

The problem, of course, is that you'd be a fool to qualify for it. OK, a bard/druid hybrid, that's kind of cool... But what the heck is that evasion requirement doing in there?

Myou, Risen Martyr is from Book of Exalted Deeds. While the class isn't really all that great, on the other hand, it's pretty clearly better than all of the other classes you'd qualify for at that point (being dead and all).

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 03:18 PM
Hospitaler.

You get Remove Disease 2/week, a weak Lay on Hands ability, all over ten levels.

Oh, and then you get saddled with a Code of Conduct.

Utterly worthless.

The version in the Defenders of the Faith splatbook (3.0) has full BAB, full divine casting, and only requires mounted feats to qualify for, which aren't that bad.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 03:20 PM
It's kind of an odd case. The class itself gives you pretty much everything you could ask for: Full BAB, six skills, and full advancement of both arcane and divine spellcasting. If you qualified for it, you'd be a fool not to take it.

The problem, of course, is that you'd be a fool to qualify for it. OK, a bard/druid hybrid, that's kind of cool... But what the heck is that evasion requirement doing in there?Ring of Evasion is the only reasonable way I can think of qualifying without sucking. What's the exact requirements again? There may be a way of doing it without needing one or the other of the classes.
Myou, Risen Martyr is from Book of Exalted Deeds. While the class isn't really all that great, on the other hand, it's pretty clearly better than all of the other classes you'd qualify for at that point (being dead and all).But the prerequisites are idiotic. The fact that you have the feat needed is probably why you died in the first place.

RTGoodman
2009-04-08, 03:33 PM
What's the exact requirements again? There may be a way of doing it without needing one or the other of the classes. But the prerequisites are idiotic.

Well, it's supposed to mimic the original Bard from old versions of D&D, which had to have all that sort of Thief/Druid/whatever stuff.

The requirements are: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (Nature) 7 ranks, Perform (String Instruments) 13(!) ranks, Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Speak Language (Druidic); Neutral Good, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil alignment; ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells; Bardic Knowledge and Evasion abilities.


Yeah, I was gonna play one once, but that campaign never got off the ground. (It's probably best that way... :smallwink:)

Tokiko Mima
2009-04-08, 03:35 PM
Ring of Evasion is the only reasonable way I can think of qualifying without sucking. What's the exact requirements again? There may be a way of doing it without needing one or the other of the classes.

Complete Adventurer Excerpt: Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)


Requirements

To qualify to become a Fochlucan lyrist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 7 ranks, Perform (string instruments) 13 ranks, Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Speak Language (Druidic).

Alignment: Neutral good, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil.

Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane and divine spells.

Special: Bardic knowledge and evasion abilities.

Speak Language (Druid) means at least one level of Druid, because no other class has that. Perform (string) means you can't enter the class at a low level, and Bard or Rogue is highly recommended to do it before you hit Epic levels.

You also need to slip in a level of arcane spellcasting, which you can do with Bard, but that won't get you evasion. Ugh, these are some messy requirements.


But the prerequisites are idiotic. The fact that you have the feat needed is probably why you died in the first place.

Yes, but I will admit I like it from a Roleplaying standpoint. It's just mechanically a bad idea for anyone to voluntarily choose to advance their character as a Risen Martyr, and you have to choose it in advance by taking a feat. :smallamused:

Myou
2009-04-08, 03:38 PM
Thanks Cronos. I think I'd rather just make a new character than gimp myself with that awful, awful class.

You lose your con, and reroll all your hP, so effectively most classes other than spellcasters will end up with less HP, it doesn't progress your casting if you are a spellcaster, and the bonuses it gives are just useless. Immunity to electricity? Is that really your biggest problem? xD

Ladorak
2009-04-08, 04:00 PM
I would say Risen Martyr. You have to be dead to take your first level in this class, and it blocks all advancement in any other PrC. You need a very specific useless Feat to enter (hope you took it before you died!) As it's capstone, you lose control of your character forever. Basically, it makes XP your enemy! :smallbiggrin:

Nimbus is needed to pick up Stigmarta. Now if you've got a forgiving DM, he'll let you take temporery CON damage to the CON stat you don't have to full heal anyone (Aside from yourself) whenever you want...

Any sencible DM will ban this of course...

Chronos
2009-04-08, 06:57 PM
Ooh, I've got another contender: Master Inquisitive, from the Eberron campaign setting. The class's primary class feature is the ability to talk to people and maybe get useful information out of them if you pay them, and to enter, you need to take a feat whose only effect is that it lets you figure out clues. You do at least get six skill points per level, which is something... Or at least, it would be something, except that the class skill list consists of only eight skills (not even Craft or Profession).

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 07:06 PM
That prestige class that turns your badass warforged into a squishy pink fleshling was pretty underwhelming, as I recall. A good class if you're more concerned about roleplaying a Data-esque warforged instead of butchering the weak for the Lord of Blades as a Warforged Juggernaught (coolest class EVAR!).

chiasaur11
2009-04-08, 07:19 PM
That prestige class that turns your badass warforged into a squishy pink fleshling was pretty underwhelming, as I recall. A good class if you're more concerned about roleplaying a Data-esque warforged instead of butchering the weak for the Lord of Blades as a Warforged Juggernaught (coolest class EVAR!).

So, switching from the motives of cool modern Aaron Stack to lame classic era Aaron stack?

Lame.

Arcane_Secrets
2009-04-08, 07:56 PM
Although it's already been mentioned, I have to second the Arcane Archer just because it's so terribly built. You have to be able to cast spells in order to qualify for it, but it offers zero arcane progression otherwise. Most of the class features are only useful 1/day and are designed to track terribly into higher levels. Even if it was a better class (and it wasn't) you'd still have to be an elf to take it.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 08:15 PM
Shining Blade of Heironeous probably takes the cake. It actually manages to gain nothing worthwhile over all the 10 levels (although Greenstar Adept puts up a good fight actively making your character worse).

holywhippet
2009-04-08, 08:24 PM
i vote for Arcane Archer, i personaly find it worse then GTA.

Arcane archer is either a fairly good prestige class, or a really lousy one - it just depends on what direction you approach it from. From the perspective of a caster like a wizard or a sorcerer it's pretty crapptacular. No spell progression at all - the only reason to dip into it is the second level ability which lets you load area spells onto your arrows to increase their range.

From the perspective of a fighter though, the class is a whole lot more interesting. Every odd numbered level gives you another +1 enchancement to any arrows you fire. That's with a normal bow and normal arrows. You don't need to fork out hard earned loot to buy magical bows or arrows. A useful build would be bard 2/ranger 5/arcane archer X - getting the song of the bard, the archery feats of the ranger and the bonuses of the arcane archer.

Of course you'd need to be able to stay out of melee combat in order to take advantage of this class.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-08, 08:42 PM
Arcane archer is either a fairly good prestige class, or a really lousy one - it just depends on what direction you approach it from. From the perspective of a caster like a wizard or a sorcerer it's pretty crapptacular. No spell progression at all - the only reason to dip into it is the second level ability which lets you load area spells onto your arrows to increase their range.

From the perspective of a fighter though, the class is a whole lot more interesting. Every odd numbered level gives you another +1 enchancement to any arrows you fire. That's with a normal bow and normal arrows. You don't need to fork out hard earned loot to buy magical bows or arrows. A useful build would be bard 2/ranger 5/arcane archer X - getting the song of the bard, the archery feats of the ranger and the bonuses of the arcane archer.

Of course you'd need to be able to stay out of melee combat in order to take advantage of this class.

Second that. Also, setting is very important - in the low-magic style campaign I prefer, automatic magic arrows is a pretty big benny. If you can just walk over to WalMart and spend your DMG-approved treasure per level on whatever you want, then it's much less worthwhile.

A half-elf with a level or two of sorcerer works very well for this build - True Strike is a no-somantic element spell, so wear any armor you want and get a +20 to hit multiple times per day. Say "Good Bye Range Modifier".

To steal a line from Lois Bujold:

"Don't worry, they couldn't possibly hit us at this ra-"

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 08:44 PM
From the perspective of a fighter though, the class is a whole lot more interesting. Every odd numbered level gives you another +1 enchancement to any arrows you fire. That's with a normal bow and normal arrows. You don't need to fork out hard earned loot to buy magical bows or arrows. A useful build would be bard 2/ranger 5/arcane archer X - getting the song of the bard, the archery feats of the ranger and the bonuses of the arcane archer.
It's still just an enhancement bonus, which doesn't stack with whatever you actually put on the bow or arrows (meaning at least a wasted +1 if you want any special enhancements whatsoever). It might be worth considering if your campaign world is critically short of magic weapons or gold, but even then a +5 hit/damage is pretty underwhelming at level 17, anyone worth killing will almost certainly resist your Arrow of Death, and most of the rest of your class features are 1/day, which is seriously underwhelming for what little punch they add. There's also the fact that the class does nothing to resolve the weakness of archery in general (ie that it's seriously nerfed by anyone with Protection From Arrows, the Deflect Arrows feat, or the Buffetting Fist graft, and is completely negated by Wind Wall).

On the other hand, "Imbue Arrow" is a useful class feature to dip....

JackMage666
2009-04-08, 08:56 PM
It's still just an enhancement bonus, which doesn't stack with whatever you actually put on the bow or arrows (meaning at least a wasted +1 if you want any special enhancements whatsoever). It might be worth considering if your campaign world is critically short of magic weapons or gold, but even then a +5 hit/damage is pretty underwhelming at level 17, anyone worth killing will almost certainly resist your Arrow of Death, and most of the rest of your class features are 1/day, which is seriously underwhelming for what little punch they add. There's also the fact that the class does nothing to resolve the weakness of archery in general (ie that it's seriously nerfed by anyone with Protection From Arrows, the Deflect Arrows feat, or the Buffetting Fist graft, and is completely negated by Wind Wall).

On the other hand, "Imbue Arrow" is a useful class feature to dip....

Yes, but when you would need a +5 Brilliant Energy Bow, you now only need a +1 Brilliant energy bow, which is over half the cost of the former.

It basically takes away +4 enhancment bonuses that you would originally need to put on your bow to get that power.

Tengu_temp
2009-04-08, 09:10 PM
Second that. Also, setting is very important - in the low-magic style campaign I prefer, automatic magic arrows is a pretty big benny. If you can just walk over to WalMart and spend your DMG-approved treasure per level on whatever you want, then it's much less worthwhile.

A half-elf with a level or two of sorcerer works very well for this build - True Strike is a no-somantic element spell, so wear any armor you want and get a +20 to hit multiple times per day. Say "Good Bye Range Modifier".


It's worth noting that playing in such a low-magic setting where players get much less wealth than WBL is effectively a houserule, and houserules can make any crappy class good.
Also, even in a low-magic setting casters still know Greater Magic Weapon.

And True Strike is rarely worth it - you spend a turn casting it instead of full attacking, to make sure that your first attack the next round has a (usually) 95% hit chance. It's almost always better to just attack in both rounds.

monty
2009-04-08, 09:14 PM
It's worth noting that playing in such a low-magic setting where players get much less wealth than WBL is effectively a houserule, and houserules can make any crappy class good.

That's not how WBL works. It's a guideline, not a rule.

Starscream
2009-04-08, 09:18 PM
Arcane archer is either a fairly good prestige class, or a really lousy one - it just depends on what direction you approach it from.

I think that if I had a player who wanted that class I'd change it to Divine Archer, so that Rangers could get into it. It'd fit the class well, and Rangers can afford to give up a few caster levels much more than any arcane class.

Ascension
2009-04-08, 09:21 PM
Also, even in a low-magic setting casters still know Greater Magic Weapon

I've seen arguments all over these boards that you should never invest in more than a +1 enhancement bonus because of Greater Magic Weapon, but really, I don't see why. Greater Magic Weapon requires one of your casters to learn the spell, prepare it, and spend at least one standard action casting of it per weapon per day. Wizards don't have the spell slots to throw away all their level three spells just to make their friends' weapons viable and Sorcerers don't have the spells known to invest in GMW. I guess maybe if your party has a Paladin you could bum GMW castings off of him, but I really don't see how that's preferable to forking over the cash to buy better weapons.

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 09:29 PM
Yes, but when you would need a +5 Brilliant Energy Bow, you now only need a +1 Brilliant energy bow, which is over half the cost of the former.

It basically takes away +4 enhancment bonuses that you would originally need to put on your bow to get that power.

When does one need a +5 Brilliant Energy bow so badly that it's worth trading 10 levels to get it? Put otherwise - is a +5 enhancement bonus and a few poor 1/day powers worth 5 Fighter bonus feats (plus more if you consider the bit of unfavourable multiclassing to get in)? Or, yet again - even in a low-gold campaign, I'd rather be a Kensai than an Arcane Archer, and I'd rather be a Soulbow than either.


...personally, I'd just replace it with a non-psi Soulbow.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-08, 09:30 PM
I've seen arguments all over these boards that you should never invest in more than a +1 enhancement bonus because of Greater Magic Weapon, but really, I don't see why. Greater Magic Weapon requires one of your casters to learn the spell, prepare it, and spend at least one standard action casting of it per weapon per day. Wizards don't have the spell slots to throw away all their level three spells just to make their friends' weapons viable and Sorcerers don't have the spells known to invest in GMW.

I guess maybe if your party has a Paladin you could bum GMW castings off of him, but I really don't see how that's preferable to forking over the cash to buy better weapons.

Because it is cheaper to buy a (lesser) Rod of Chain so everyone in party has a +5 enhancement to hit/damage; then buy a +5 weapon.

Chain means 1 spell affects every one equal to caster level.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 09:30 PM
It's those two partners in crime, Persistent Metamagic and Divine Metamagic, that form the basis of this plan.

JackMage666
2009-04-08, 09:33 PM
When does one need a +5 Brilliant Energy bow so badly that it's worth trading 10 levels to get it? Put otherwise - is a +5 enhancement bonus and a few poor 1/day powers worth 5 Fighter bonus feats (plus more if you consider the bit of unfavourable multiclassing to get in)? Or, yet again - even in a low-gold campaign, I'd rather be a Kensai than an Arcane Archer, and I'd rather be a Soulbow than either.


...personally, I'd just replace it with a non-psi Soulbow.

I didn't say it was the best option, but it's far from the worst.

monty
2009-04-08, 09:34 PM
I've seen arguments all over these boards that you should never invest in more than a +1 enhancement bonus because of Greater Magic Weapon, but really, I don't see why. Greater Magic Weapon requires one of your casters to learn the spell, prepare it, and spend at least one standard action casting of it per weapon per day. Wizards don't have the spell slots to throw away all their level three spells just to make their friends' weapons viable and Sorcerers don't have the spells known to invest in GMW. I guess maybe if your party has a Paladin you could bum GMW castings off of him, but I really don't see how that's preferable to forking over the cash to buy better weapons.

Rod of Chain Spell. And a standard action really doesn't matter much when you're casting it at the beginning of the day. Even at minimum CL, 7 hours means you probably won't need to cast it more than twice a day.

As a general rule: never spend a feat or class level on something you can get with money, and never spend money on something you can get with a spell - unless it's really cheap and/or a lot of spells, and this is neither.

Ograbme
2009-04-08, 09:40 PM
Swanmay. You gain the ability to turn into....


a swan.

I wonder how the writers kicked around that idea.
"Ok I have this class where you can turn into a duck 3/day, but it just needs something..."
"How about a swan?"

streakster
2009-04-08, 09:43 PM
Yes, it's the Pearl of Power level 3 and The Rod of Chain Spell! Buy them for the caster in your life today!

EDIT: Ninja'd. Hard.

Draken
2009-04-08, 09:57 PM
Speaking of pearls!

Kight of the Pearl!

Over the course of five levels this paladin prestige class manages to be roughly as good as Freedom of Movement for a water environment.

As a capstone, however, you gain the ability to use a turn attempt to either deal 4d6 damage to all evil undead within 30 feet, or heal 4d6 damage to all good creatures within 30 feet.

That's cool right?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 10:11 PM
Arcane Archer is bad, because the primary ability can be duplicate with a 3rd level spell

GSA actively screws your character, not only by nerfing his casting, but by reducing his defenses, and eventually screwing his Con score

However, there is one which is even worse...

The Forsaker, from Masters of the Wild (3.0).

Basically, you can't use any magic items. You get SR, but you can't turn it off to allow spells (like CURE) affect you. That Lesser Vigor spell the Cleric Persisted? Doesn't affect you at all.

It gets better.

To be able to actually do anything to critters which can only be affected by magic, you have to destroy magic items. Yep, that's right. Not only do you get crappy SR which does more harm than good, but you also have to screw over your party to be able to get any benefit from the class.

This just screams 'Epic Phail'.

Saph
2009-04-08, 10:16 PM
Because it is cheaper to buy a (lesser) Rod of Chain so everyone in party has a +5 enhancement to hit/damage; then buy a +5 weapon.

Chain means 1 spell affects every one equal to caster level.

But that requires a wizard, which not all parties have. And he or she needs to be about level 12 before it's worth the effort. Oh, and a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell is 13,000, IIRC. Not exactly pocket change unless you're of highish level as well.

So this combo works if your party is level 12+, is using the MiC, and has a wizard or equivalent caster able to buy the rod. Which would be maybe . . . 5% of parties? Probably less. Not something you really want to count on.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that Arcane Archer is a very bad class, because it's so much easier for an archer just to buy a good magic bow in the first place.

I've always thought a good houserule for Arcane Archer would be to let its arrows function off 3.0 rules. Ie, Arcane Archer enhancement bonuses stack with the bow's enhancement bonus. Maybe add in half-caster progression too.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2009-04-08, 10:19 PM
But that requires a wizard, which not all parties have. And he or she needs to be about level 12 before it's worth the effort. Oh, and a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell is 13,000, IIRC. Not exactly pocket change unless you're of highish level as well.

So this combo works if your party is level 12+, is using the MiC, and has a wizard or equivalent caster able to buy the rod. Which would be maybe . . . 5% of parties? Probably less. Not something you really want to count on.

Level 10 with a Wu jen (elemental metal Mastery for the win!): that was what I did at level 10 (who wouldn't want a +3 weapon).

Waspinator
2009-04-08, 10:20 PM
About Risen Martyr: if you want to bring back a dead character so badly, I'd rather use Ghostwalk and have him hang out as a ghost until he can get a resurrection spell.

lsfreak
2009-04-08, 10:42 PM
But that requires a wizard, which not all parties have. And he or she needs to be about level 12 before it's worth the effort. Oh, and a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell is 13,000, IIRC. Not exactly pocket change unless you're of highish level as well.

So this combo works if your party is level 12+, is using the MiC, and has a wizard or equivalent caster able to buy the rod. Which would be maybe . . . 5% of parties? Probably less. Not something you really want to count on.

Eighth level is all you really need for it to be worthwhile, since your second enhancement (at least in my experience) is generally something other than that extra +1 atk/dmg. Instead of dropping 10.000gp each to get up to +2 bonus (+3 effective), might as well spend 14000gp each for both a +2 bonus and another enchantment (+4 effective). Before 8th level or so, it's a nonissue because anything higher than +2 weapon enhancements are beyond what a character can afford.

Worira
2009-04-08, 10:54 PM
I love the art for the Risen Martyr.

Saph
2009-04-08, 10:58 PM
Eighth level is all you really need for it to be worthwhile, since your second enhancement (at least in my experience) is generally something other than that extra +1 atk/dmg.

Not really worth the effort for a +1 enhancement, IMO. And that assumes you can even find/afford the thing. Not everyone uses the MiC, not everyone plays in a world where you can easily buy powerful wonderous items, and not every spellcaster can be relied on to enchant your weapons on command. Bottom line, it's not something you should be counting on. You aren't always going to have every resource you want.

- Saph

kjones
2009-04-08, 11:07 PM
Arcane Archer is bad, because the primary ability can be duplicate with a 3rd level spell

GSA actively screws your character, not only by nerfing his casting, but by reducing his defenses, and eventually screwing his Con score

However, there is one which is even worse...

The Forsaker, from Masters of the Wild (3.0).

Basically, you can't use any magic items. You get SR, but you can't turn it off to allow spells (like CURE) affect you. That Lesser Vigor spell the Cleric Persisted? Doesn't affect you at all.

It gets better.

To be able to actually do anything to critters which can only be affected by magic, you have to destroy magic items. Yep, that's right. Not only do you get crappy SR which does more harm than good, but you also have to screw over your party to be able to get any benefit from the class.

This just screams 'Epic Phail'.

I love the Forsaker! It's so absurd it wraps all the way around and becomes wonderful. It joins the Frenzied Berserker on the list of "Prestige classes that will make your party hate you".

I'll bet you could get some serious cheese by combining Forsaker with Vow of Poverty.

monty
2009-04-08, 11:11 PM
I love the Forsaker! It's so absurd it wraps all the way around and becomes wonderful. It joins the Frenzied Berserker on the list of "Prestige classes that will make your party hate you".

But at least Frenzied Berserker can be controlled most of the time. Forsaker is basically "you will burn your party's stuff if you want to do anything."

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:12 PM
I love the Forsaker! It's so absurd it wraps all the way around and becomes wonderful. It joins the Frenzied Berserker on the list of "Prestige classes that will make your party hate you".

I'll bet you could get some serious cheese by combining Forsaker with Vow of Poverty.

Not really. You see, to be able to use the Foresaker, you need magic items. The moment you get a magic item, you have violated your VoP. Catch 22.

holywhippet
2009-04-08, 11:13 PM
There's three thing a lot of the arcane archer detractors are overlooking:

a) Not every DM is going to allow a player to drop into "adventurer mart" and buy a +5 bow. Some campaigns are specifically low magic/low magical item availability.

b) Even if you can buy such a thing, don't assume the DM is going to allow you access to enough wealth easily enough.

c) It works with any long/short bow you have the weapon focus feat for. If a normal fighter buys a +5 longbow and someone hits with successful sunder weapon attack or if a thief steals it while they are sleeping then it's bye bye +5 to hit and damage. (Assuming you don't get it fixed or catch the thief of course). An arcane archer can afford to have several spare bows and can just get a new one anywhere.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:16 PM
There's three thing a lot of the arcane archer detractors are overlooking:

a) Not every DM is going to allow a player to drop into "adventurer mart" and buy a +5 bow. Some campaigns are specifically low magic/low magical item availability.

b) Even if you can buy such a thing, don't assume the DM is going to allow you access to enough wealth easily enough.

c) It works with any long/short bow you have the weapon focus feat for. If a normal fighter buys a +5 longbow and someone hits with successful sunder weapon attack or if a thief steals it while they are sleeping then it's bye bye +5 to hit and damage. (Assuming you don't get it fixed or catch the thief of course). An arcane archer can afford to have several spare bows and can just get a new one anywhere.

a) Greater Magic Weapon negates this.

b) Who needs to buy it when you have GMW?

c) GMW works on any weapon. Period. It gets sundered, you get your caster to cast GMW on your next one. Problem solved.

The problem with the class is that a single spell obviates almost everything about it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 11:25 PM
But that requires a wizard, which not all parties have. And he or she needs to be about level 12 before it's worth the effort. Oh, and a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell is 13,000, IIRC. Not exactly pocket change unless you're of highish level as well.Before about level 12, you probably only have +2 worth of enhancements, generally +1 and Keen, Flaming, or something similar. GMW isn't worth investing in, no, but you aren't likely to have +2 either even with AA until level 10. Past that point, though, you have more than enough cash to afford the Rod. 55k per person, generally 3 people in a party have a weapon, the Rod is essentially pocket change. Even if you don't, it's a 3rd level slot. You have about 8 of those by that point. And how many parties lack any sort of spellcaster? Paladins, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Wu Jen, someone has it on their spell list.

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 11:33 PM
There's three thing a lot of the arcane archer detractors are overlooking:

a) Not every DM is going to allow a player to drop into "adventurer mart" and buy a +5 bow. Some campaigns are specifically low magic/low magical item availability.

b) Even if you can buy such a thing, don't assume the DM is going to allow you access to enough wealth easily enough.

c) It works with any long/short bow you have the weapon focus feat for. If a normal fighter buys a +5 longbow and someone hits with successful sunder weapon attack or if a thief steals it while they are sleeping then it's bye bye +5 to hit and damage. (Assuming you don't get it fixed or catch the thief of course). An arcane archer can afford to have several spare bows and can just get a new one anywhere.
ShneekeyTheLost just about nailed it, but... okay, so let's say you're in a mystical world where GMW doesn't exist. Congratulations - you've just traded 10 levels of class features for a +4 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls, using a combat style that is easy to negate and doesn't really do much even when it's working (since you can't use it with Power Attack, or charges, or lockdown, and you don't gain SA or Skirmish or Precise Shot or anything else to boost damage to reasonable levels).

So that's what, roughly along the lines of a 2nd level ToB Maneuver? And a bunch of 1/day things that are roughly in line with 1st level ToB Maneuvers that could have been used 1/encounter or more? Don't you feel special.

monty
2009-04-08, 11:36 PM
Also, outside of core at least, the cleric does it better anyway.

ericgrau
2009-04-08, 11:43 PM
arcane archer & dragon disciple: try it in a martial build not a caster build and they work out. The dragon disciple is especially powerful, for core anyway. Well worth the BAB you lose to gain the stats, d12 HD, and two good saves.

For high archery damage, try rapid shot, haste, bow with damage enchantments, the ability to stack arrows onto the bow (like any bane arrow you want, or a +1d6 for a relatively low cost vs. going from +7 to +8 on your bow), pick arrows of any metal type for DR, and every attack is a full attack, for starters. Add the strategic value of range, then the extra ways to boost AB like bracers & the PBS feat and the ability to get all the damage mentioned without sacrificing much AB and turning your "damage" into a ton of misses. This may surprise you, but a lot of people in actual games like to play archers and they are far from crying themselves to sleep at night.

My nomination: I nominate the duelist for worst PrC evar since I've tried to find a way to make it work and haven't been able to. At 1st level you give up all armor and gain... +1 AC... if you paid the MAD ahead of time. That's followed by a +2 to initiative, double mobility bonus, and +2 to reflex saves. Finally you get a damage bonus, but only when using a lower damage weapon (what?). It gets only slightly better from there, when you finally get the only semi-worthwhile abilities after paying 6 levels of bleh. With full BAB and d10 HD, each of these levels might be worth slightly more than an odd level of fighter, but the real entrance cost at first level blows all these pittances away.

holywhippet
2009-04-08, 11:45 PM
a) Greater Magic Weapon negates this.

b) Who needs to buy it when you have GMW?

c) GMW works on any weapon. Period. It gets sundered, you get your caster to cast GMW on your next one. Problem solved.

The problem with the class is that a single spell obviates almost everything about it.

GMW requires a wizard/sorcerer to know the spell and to actually cast it. That's a level 3 slot gone that could have been used for something else. It is vulnerable to a dispel magic attack and I can easily see a GM trying this to cancel the party's precast buffs.

On top of that, the + bonuses don't match up. GMW gives +1 every 4 caster levels. Which means the wizards levels/bonus given look like this:

Wizard level bonus
5 1
8 2
12 3
16 4
20 5

The arcane archer's bonuses per level look like this:

AA level bonus
8 1
10 2
12 3
14 4
16 5

It's even at level 12 - but after that the AA gets their enchantment bonuses faster.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:48 PM
GMW requires a wizard/sorcerer to know the spell and to actually cast it. That's a level 3 slot gone that could have been used for something else. It is vulnerable to a dispel magic attack and I can easily see a GM trying this to cancel the party's precast buffs.

On top of that, the + bonuses don't match up. GMW gives +1 every 4 caster levels. Which means the wizards levels/bonus given look like this:

Wizard level bonus
5 1
8 2
12 3
16 4
20 5

The arcane archer's bonuses per level look like this:

AA level bonus
8 1
10 2
12 3
14 4
16 5

It's even at level 12 - but after that the AA gets their enchantment bonuses faster.

At least until you have a Cleric with a Karmic Bead cast it for you, in which case they both level out at level 16...

wizards and sorcerers aren't the only ones who get GMW, yanno...

Oh, and you still have to beat a caster level check to dispel. So either you are high enough level that I would prefer you try to Dispel my GMW rather than Disintegrate me, or you aren't high enough level to beat me on a caster level check. After all, I can always recast my GMW.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 11:51 PM
GMW requires a wizard/sorcerer to know the spell and to actually cast it. That's a level 3 slot gone that could have been used for something else. It is vulnerable to a dispel magic attack and I can easily see a GM trying this to cancel the party's precast buffs.

On top of that, the + bonuses don't match up. GMW gives +1 every 4 caster levels. Which means the wizards levels/bonus given look like this:

Wizard level bonus
5 1
8 2
12 3
16 4
20 5

The arcane archer's bonuses per level look like this:

AA level bonus
8 1
10 2
12 3
14 4
16 5

It's even at level 12 - but after that the AA gets their enchantment bonuses faster.At it's best, you get +1 over GMW for 4 levels. That's the absolut highest. And you're setting levels on fire to do so. It's nowhere near worth it.

ericgrau
2009-04-08, 11:55 PM
You get other abilities too and don't rely on having a GMW. With full BAB and two good saves. It's still marginally better than an odd level of fighter.

Draken
2009-04-08, 11:55 PM
Hmm...

Actually Greater Magic Weapon caps at caster level 16. It says "+1 plus +1 for every four caster levels".

So...

CL 4 = +2
CL 8 = +3
CL 12 = +4
CL 16 = +5

If it only started working starting at level 8, it would say "for every four caster levels past level four". And if it worked that way, Greater Magic Weapon would be pointless over normal Magic Weapon until you reached caster level 8.

ericgrau
2009-04-08, 11:57 PM
Hmm...

Actually Greater Magic Weapon caps at caster level 16. It says "+1 plus +1 for every four caster levels".

So...

CL 4 = +2
CL 8 = +3
CL 12 = +4
CL 16 = +5

If it only started working starting at level 8, it would say "for every four caster levels past level four". And if it worked that way, Greater Magic Weapon would be pointless over normal Magic Weapon until you reached caster level 8.



This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).

Nope. Just +1 per 4 caster levels.

Saph
2009-04-08, 11:57 PM
And how many parties lack any sort of spellcaster? Paladins, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Wu Jen, someone has it on their spell list.

Clerics get GMW, yes . . . as a level 4 spell. That means no Lesser Rod of Chain Spell. Paladins have very few spells/day and a poor CL. Sorcerers have to blow a valuable spell-known on it. Wu Jen would work fine, but I've never ever seen someone play one.

So that leaves, mainly, wizards. And not everyone has a wizard on call who'll cast spells for you. Look, no-one's saying that this can't EVER work. It's just a bad idea to assume that it'll ALWAYS work.

- Saph

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 11:59 PM
You get other abilities too and don't rely on having a GMW. With full BAB and two good saves. It's still marginally better than an odd level of fighter."Slightly better than an NPC class" is in no way a recomendation.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-09, 01:19 AM
Swanmay. You gain the ability to turn into....


a swan.

I wonder how the writers kicked around that idea.
"Ok I have this class where you can turn into a duck 3/day, but it just needs something..."
"How about a swan?"

I just googled this, and... my God. You're serious. It's... it's a ranger, with all good saves, and reduced BAB, and fewer skill points. Who turns into a swan. Which has rather a lot of drawbacks as compared to human form. And she can't even do it without a special magic item; the Swanmay's capstone is getting to use her ridiculous class feature without needing the magic item. Oh, and she's required to be a human female. Being able to enter this PrC at 3rd level sounds like an advantage, but why would you want to enter it?
I really think we have a winner here. Swanmays make Arcane Archers look like Incantatrixes, power-wise.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-09, 01:22 AM
Clerics get GMW, yes . . . as a level 4 spell. That means no Lesser Rod of Chain Spell. Paladins have very few spells/day and a poor CL. Sorcerers have to blow a valuable spell-known on it. Wu Jen would work fine, but I've never ever seen someone play one.

So that leaves, mainly, wizards. And not everyone has a wizard on call who'll cast spells for you. Look, no-one's saying that this can't EVER work. It's just a bad idea to assume that it'll ALWAYS work.

- Saph

Clerics don't need metamagic rods. They DMM Chain it :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I have never been in a party that didn't have SOMEONE that had GMW after about level 8 or so.

The problem is that you are spending 10 levels to do something that it takes one spell to duplicate. This is phail. The abilities are jokes, and only 1/day anyways. Improved Precise Shot is decidedly better than Seeking Arrow, because it is not limited to number of times per day. The number of times you will use Phasing Shot is so minuscule that you may as well not bother. Death Arrow will NEVER land, with its flat DC. The only thing it is good for is shooting AMFs at casters to shut them down.

arguskos
2009-04-09, 01:24 AM
Wooooow. Ok. That... wow. I mean... wow. Just god damn. That class is the worse PrC in all of existence. Ever. Period. For any reason whatsoever. :smalleek:

Thread over, Swanmay HAS to win.

JackMage666
2009-04-09, 01:32 AM
Swanmay only needs to be Female, not necessarily Human.

She also gains Full BAB, d8 HD, decent skills, Spell Resistance (12+Class level), 9/10 spellcasting (druid or ranger, only, though), Charm Person (3/day), Speak with Plants and Speak with Animals (at-will), and Charm Monster (2/day), and the capstone is Fey transformation (become Fey, with DR 10/cold iron.)

It's really not all that bad. It's just not great. Yes, you do get a really weak Wildshape ability, that turns you into a swan, but the other abilities are pretty solid (plus, you don't really lose much spellcasting at all.) The only pre-requisites that are even slightly hard to get are Wild Empathy and Speak with Animals (as a spell)

Chronos
2009-04-09, 01:32 AM
I'd just like to call attention to Master Inquisitive again, here. A human Master Inquisitor with 14 Int (which one would think would be your primary ability score) literally must have cross-class skill ranks, because you've run out of class skills to spend them on. And the class and its prerequisite feat give you abilities that every character ever, in every role-playing game ever devised, already has.

FMArthur
2009-04-09, 04:29 AM
I just read up on the Master Inquisitive class (Eberron Campaign Setting), and I am overwhelmed with the stupidity of the whole class's concept. Major class ability: knows people. Well, a person at first (you know 3 people by the end!!!). Who may be able to provide useful information, can only be contacted once per week and requires payment and favours in return. So this is an incredibly weak class feature dedicated to... well, provide basic plot hooks the DM would have given you more easily. I guess it could be useful when playing under a DM who refuses to include helpful NPCs or plot hooks in their campaigns.

Other notable class abilities: Zone of Truth, Discern Lies, and True Seeing, all only once per day. Two bonus feats that must be selected from (and this is not a joke) Alertness, Deceitful, Heroic Spirit, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Negotiator, Persuasive, Recognize Impostor, Research, Toughness, Track, and Urban Tracking.


This, and Survivor (which many of you have discounted as being an NPC class when it is in fact intended to be a fully-playable class for human players, and the Commoner's easy entry was unintentional) are the worst classes I have ever seen. I think Risen Martyr is decent competition for the fact that its capstone is in fact the most harmful thing that could happen to a character (removed permanently from the campaign), but otherwise nothing else in this thread has come close in my opinion.

Roderick_BR
2009-04-09, 08:43 AM
Hospitaler.

You get Remove Disease 2/week, a weak Lay on Hands ability, all over ten levels.

Oh, and then you get saddled with a Code of Conduct.

Utterly worthless.
As it was pointed, the 3.0 version gains full spellcasting progression, it just lacks the information on the table, but it's in the text. Better to take it as a cleric to gain Lay on Hands, bonus feats, and full BAB. You just lose turn undead progression and level-based granted powers progression.
It's like WarPriest: No spellcasting progression for full BAB, and the ability to cast some spells as spell-like abilities a couple times again, spells that you could use dozens of times if you stayed cleric all the way. Better to take as a paladin if you don't mind losing high level paladin spells.

Another bad one: I don't remember the name, but I think it's from BoVD: A warrior class that scarres himself to gain special abilities, that could have been gained with itens, if you stayed fighter or barbarian. These effects are immune to dispelling, but still.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-09, 08:51 AM
What, the Warrior of Darkness? No restrictions on magical item use, so you got your infusions and your magical gear. Next to all these, it seems downright delectable.

Darth Stabber
2009-04-09, 09:05 AM
So far the Ballot looks like
Swanmay (swan Ranger)
Survivor (The thing that lives, doesn't do much else, but you live)
Master Inquisitive (useless)
Greenstone adept (sucks up caster levels, and actively makes your character worse in the process)
Forsaker (wow, cant be healed, and must break stuff)
Hospitalier (just bad)
risen Martyr (dead is a prerequisite i try to avoid)
Fochlucan Lyrist (requires a large degree of bad character design to get in, and doesn't give you anything for doing it)
Yathrinshee (duel progression gone wrong)
Pious Templar (just bad)
True Necromancer(duel progression gone wrong)

Am I missing any that are obviously worse than what is on the list

Douglas
2009-04-09, 09:26 AM
Pious Templar does not belong on that list. It's not that good for taking all the way through, but it has Mettle at level 1. That by itself makes it an excellent 1 level dip for many builds.

Telonius
2009-04-09, 09:43 AM
Reforged always seemed a little silly to me. For the low, low price of a three-level PrC, you can turn into a human without the extra feat or skill bonus! (Though the FAQ does state that a Warforged Juggernaut can take the PrC and retain his bonuses, still).

Kesnit
2009-04-09, 09:52 AM
I mean, REALLY, the Yathrinshee is the WORSE dual-progression PrC ever made, and dual-progression is typically terrible to begin with. Greenstar makes you PAY for the privilege of sucking harder than an Oreck vacuum.

What is a Yathinshee?


The Forsaker, from Masters of the Wild (3.0).

Basically, you can't use any magic items. You get SR, but you can't turn it off to allow spells (like CURE) affect you. That Lesser Vigor spell the Cleric Persisted? Doesn't affect you at all.

It gets better.

To be able to actually do anything to critters which can only be affected by magic, you have to destroy magic items. Yep, that's right. Not only do you get crappy SR which does more harm than good, but you also have to screw over your party to be able to get any benefit from the class.

This just screams 'Epic Phail'.

I don't know the class, so don't know the exact details of destroying magic items. But I don't see the issue with buying small, cheap items to carry and destroy as needed. No need to touch the party's stuff. The items come out of your WBL, but if you can't use magical items, you won't have much need for WBL.

Not being able to accept healing magic would suck, though.



and you don't gain SA or Skirmish or Precise Shot or anything else to boost damage to reasonable levels).

You get SA if you are within 30' (close, but not unreasonable, esp in a dungeon where things are likely to be cramped). I don't have my books, but seem to recall you can get Skirmish with ranged.

Texas Jedi
2009-04-09, 10:17 AM
I don't know the class, so don't know the exact details of destroying magic items. But I don't see the issue with buying small, cheap items to carry and destroy as needed. No need to touch the party's stuff. The items come out of your WBL, but if you can't use magical items, you won't have much need for WBL.

Not being able to accept healing magic would suck, though.



I think the item has to scale with your level. You can't buy the cheapest item you can get and hope it works at the highest level of the class. I also think you do gain fast healing or some type of regeneration though to make up for the SR that can't turn off.

Douglas
2009-04-09, 10:25 AM
I don't know the class, so don't know the exact details of destroying magic items. But I don't see the issue with buying small, cheap items to carry and destroy as needed. No need to touch the party's stuff. The items come out of your WBL, but if you can't use magical items, you won't have much need for WBL.
It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe there is a minimum amount of magic items you have to destroy, measured by value. And this minimum is per day (I think), increases as you gain more levels in the class, and is significantly large. Try destroying at least 1000 gp worth of magic items per day (and any extra because you couldn't find something worth exactly that is just wasted) and see how long your WBL lasts you.

Still, that's not the worst problem with the class. The real problem is the total ban on using magic, and the fact that the class features intended to make up for it are nowhere near powerful enough to match the equipment you are giving up. Even Vow of Poverty gives better bonuses, and that only costs two feats - and even that cost is less than just the prerequisites for Forsaker (Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will if the information google found for me is correct).

sonofzeal
2009-04-09, 11:26 AM
So far the Ballot looks like
Swanmay (swan Ranger)
Survivor (The thing that lives, doesn't do much else, but you live)
Master Inquisitive (useless)
Greenstone adept (sucks up caster levels, and actively makes your character worse in the process)
Forsaker (wow, cant be healed, and must break stuff)
Hospitalier (just bad)
risen Martyr (dead is a prerequisite i try to avoid)
Fochlucan Lyrist (requires a large degree of bad character design to get in, and doesn't give you anything for doing it)
Yathrinshee (duel progression gone wrong)
Pious Templar (just bad)
True Necromancer(duel progression gone wrong)

Am I missing any that are obviously worse than what is on the list
There's also that whole list I posted earlier. Here's a few exerpts I'm personally familiar with.

Blighter (requires at least five dead levels, and stinks horribly anyway)
Duelist (terrible at the combat style it tries to master)
Entropomancer ("doing 5d6 damage as a standard action is worth losing 9th level spells, right?")
Evangelist (just.... yeah.)
Master of the Unseen Hand (for Wizards specializing in telekinesis, and makes you worse at it than a straight Wizard)
Metamind (in theory, trades "powers known" for extra power points... but puts you so far behind the curve you lose out in power points too)
Mindbender (for Wizards specializing in enchantment, and makes you worse at it than a straight Wizard)
Ollam ("hey, getting basic Bard abilities is worth losing some Cleric spellcasting, right?")
Reaping Mauler (Because a grappler that loses access to his PrC when enlarged is just ever so useful)
Wonderworker (yet another spellcasting PrC that doesn't advance spellcasting FOR THE LOOOOOSE)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-09, 11:33 AM
Mindbender (for Wizards specializing in enchantment, and makes you worse at it than a straight Wizard)It's pretty good as a Dip, though, so I wouldn't put it on the list. Telepathy 100' for one level is nothing to sneeze at, especially with the feat to turn that into Mindsight. It's only level 2, where the class looses spellcasting, that it sucks.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-09, 11:36 AM
Actually, I'd like to dispute Master of the Unseen Hand...as a straight Sorcerer or Wizard entry, it does fail. But it's not really meant for a caster, as shown by the fact that it's in Complete Warrior and doesn't advance any spellcasting. However, if you slap a few levels of MotUH on a creature with innate telekinesis (Ghosts come to mind, some demons/devils, others) it turns TK into a fairly useful and effective weapon.

sonofzeal
2009-04-09, 11:44 AM
It's pretty good as a Dip, though, so I wouldn't put it on the list. Telepathy 100' for one level is nothing to sneeze at, especially with the feat to turn that into Mindsight. It's only level 2, where the class looses spellcasting, that it sucks.
Yeah, but that means the class itself is still fail, merely that it's a rather exploitable fail.


Actually, I'd like to dispute Master of the Unseen Hand...as a straight Sorcerer or Wizard entry, it does fail. But it's not really meant for a caster, as shown by the fact that it's in Complete Warrior and doesn't advance any spellcasting. However, if you slap a few levels of MotUH on a creature with innate telekinesis (Ghosts come to mind, some demons/devils, others) it turns TK into a fairly useful and effective weapon.
True... but a lot of things become better with odd entries. In my system, I go by "logical entry", which for MotUH is Sor/Wiz. Darth Stabber may measure differently.

Fishy
2009-04-09, 11:56 AM
The Fochlucan Lyrist is a little bit less terrible if you get in through Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle. You'll basically need to be human with Able Learner, but you get some nice healing-related abilities, spontaneous heal, and the powers of an 11th level bard stapled to 19th level druid casting. Not terrible. Not very good, but not Forsaker.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-09, 12:10 PM
The Fochlucan Lyrist is a little bit less terrible if you get in through Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle. You'll basically need to be human with Able Learner, but you get some nice healing-related abilities, spontaneous heal, and the powers of an 11th level bard stapled to 19th level druid casting. Not terrible. Not very good, but not Forsaker.You could make a decent one using a Bard with Obtain Familiar and a Ring of Evasion heading into Bard/Druid/Arcane Heirophant/Fochlucan Lyrist. It's beyond convoluted, but doable, which alone means it's better than most of the classes on the list.

JackMage666
2009-04-09, 12:14 PM
I still contend that Swanmay should not be on the list at all. Look it up on the Book of Exalted Deeds, it's really not bad at all (I don't know where SurlySeraph got his version from, but it's not the published version.)

Shpadoinkle
2009-04-09, 12:25 PM
Blood Magus from Tome and Blood is pretty awful... You lose FIVE caster levels, you can sacrifice blood (hit points) in order to cast a spell with a material component (which is great for a class with a d4 hit die, right?), some crappy variations of the Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion feats, which only allow the scrolls and potions you create to be used by yourself. You also get a sort of metamagic feat that can be applied on the fly a la the way sorcerers do it, and adds a whole... +1d6 point of damage. This never goes up.

He also gets DR 1 (OMFG HOW AWESOME TO HAVE AT LEVEL 12 AT THE EARLIEST!), the ability to create a homunculus, which while sturdier than the ones in the MM, still sucks because it's a damn homunculus, and the ability to teleport any distance... but he has to "exit" via a living creature. To be fair, there doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of times this can be used, and if he wants he can cause damage with it (16d6 points,) but he has to make a fortitude save or take 2d4 damage himself. While by this point the save DC for this is negligable, especially since he gets a good Fortitude save, but damn.... losing five caster levels to get something like that is a pretty steep, and by the time you can get this ability (level 15 at the earliest), long-distance travel shouldn't be a huge deal anyway. Losing ninth level spells (and eighth level, if you go in as a sorcerer) is worth that kind of power, right?

mikej
2009-04-09, 12:37 PM
I'll second ( third? ) the Blighter, some dark version of the Druid that failed badly. I'll continue the hate for the Green Star Adept. Worse PrC in my opinion. Once had a player think it was the greatess thing since sliced bread, but warn them once and if that doesn't work...let them discover the truth for themselves.

I'd like to mention the Pyrokineticist, it's just really mundane and completely out done by any blaster-type caster. One of my fellow players thought it would great to mix CW Samurai with this garbage. Ahh, brings back horrible memories, since the same player was an competitive loudmouth. The same type of person who thinks he can beat anyone at the table.

Myrmex
2009-04-09, 12:59 PM
But that requires a wizard, which not all parties have. And he or she needs to be about level 12 before it's worth the effort. Oh, and a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell is 13,000, IIRC. Not exactly pocket change unless you're of highish level as well.

So this combo works if your party is level 12+, is using the MiC, and has a wizard or equivalent caster able to buy the rod. Which would be maybe . . . 5% of parties? Probably less. Not something you really want to count on.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that Arcane Archer is a very bad class, because it's so much easier for an archer just to buy a good magic bow in the first place.

I've always thought a good houserule for Arcane Archer would be to let its arrows function off 3.0 rules. Ie, Arcane Archer enhancement bonuses stack with the bow's enhancement bonus. Maybe add in half-caster progression too.

- Saph

Inside core, everyone just pays 9k for a pearl of power 3. Rod of chain spell is also in Tome & Blood and complete Arcane.

And for the 12k for the rod? Presuming at least two of the party uses a weapon, it only costs 6k per person, which is considerably cheaper than a +2 weapon.


The problem with the class is that a single spell obviates almost everything about it.

That's the single biggest problem with the wizard.


Blood Magus from Tome and Blood is pretty awful... You lose FIVE caster levels, you can sacrifice blood (hit points) in order to cast a spell with a material component (which is great for a class with a d4 hit die, right?), some crappy variations of the Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion feats, which only allow the scrolls and potions you create to be used by yourself. You also get a sort of metamagic feat that can be applied on the fly a la the way sorcerers do it, and adds a whole... +1d6 point of damage. This never goes up.

He also gets DR 1 (OMFG HOW AWESOME TO HAVE AT LEVEL 12 AT THE EARLIEST!), the ability to create a homunculus, which while sturdier than the ones in the MM, still sucks because it's a damn homunculus, and the ability to teleport any distance... but he has to "exit" via a living creature. To be fair, there doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of times this can be used, and if he wants he can cause damage with it (16d6 points,) but he has to make a fortitude save or take 2d4 damage himself. While by this point the save DC for this is negligable, especially since he gets a good Fortitude save, but damn.... losing five caster levels to get something like that is a pretty steep, and by the time you can get this ability (level 15 at the earliest), long-distance travel shouldn't be a huge deal anyway. Losing ninth level spells (and eighth level, if you go in as a sorcerer) is worth that kind of power, right?

While I agree with most of that, the ability to pay costly material components with blood is awesome. You just cast the spell "hide life" before hand, which lets you go as negative into the hp as you like. Then you animate your undead horde for free (while spraying blood like a shook up six foot can of blood soda), heal yourself up, and you're good to go raid some villages.

Chronos
2009-04-09, 11:28 PM
Wonderworker (yet another spellcasting PrC that doesn't advance spellcasting FOR THE LOOOOOSE)On the other hand, it's a pretty good choice for when you finish Apostle of Peace. You can't get any higher level spells because you've already got 9th level spells, but you can get more of those 9th level spells. If you took some spontaneous arcane class before your Apostle of Peace levels, you can do the same thing with Dragon Disciple, too.

sonofzeal
2009-04-10, 12:08 AM
On the other hand, it's a pretty good choice for when you finish Apostle of Peace. You can't get any higher level spells because you've already got 9th level spells, but you can get more of those 9th level spells. If you took some spontaneous arcane class before your Apostle of Peace levels, you can do the same thing with Dragon Disciple, too.
Well yes... but then you're an Apostle of Peace. And good luck figuring out if you're allowed to wear that shiny Amulet of Natural Armor or not, given that the "armor" section says you can, but then you break your Vow of Poverty. And why do you have that in the first place? In any case, while a strongly support the viability of "Vow of Peace" if played well, even someone who already has that vow can usually find better things to do than take levels in AoP (I've always wanted to see a VoPeace Beguiler). Honestly, I'd rate AoP among the worst PrCs too.

That said, if you've finished a (slightly better) fast-advancement PrC, I can see how Wonderworker fits in naturally, so I'll give it points there.

Frosty
2009-04-10, 02:09 AM
DD can be decent if you enter it from Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade. You have to stand still, but you can throw maneuvers at enemies all day long!

quick_comment
2009-04-10, 03:00 AM
Wonderworker isnt that bad.

Wizard 17/Wonderworker 3 gets an extra 8th level spell over a straight wizard.

But its true beauty is at epic levels. The bonus slots can give you slots in your higher than 9th spell levels.

Waspinator
2009-04-10, 05:26 AM
DD can be decent if you enter it from Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade. You have to stand still, but you can throw maneuvers at enemies all day long!

A good point. Making your melee attacks have range makes many limited-mobility melee builds a lot better.

Arcane_Secrets
2009-04-10, 12:52 PM
As it was pointed, the 3.0 version gains full spellcasting progression, it just lacks the information on the table, but it's in the text. Better to take it as a cleric to gain Lay on Hands, bonus feats, and full BAB. You just lose turn undead progression and level-based granted powers progression.
It's like WarPriest: No spellcasting progression for full BAB, and the ability to cast some spells as spell-like abilities a couple times again, spells that you could use dozens of times if you stayed cleric all the way. Better to take as a paladin if you don't mind losing high level paladin spells.

Another bad one: I don't remember the name, but I think it's from BoVD: A warrior class that scarres himself to gain special abilities, that could have been gained with itens, if you stayed fighter or barbarian. These effects are immune to dispelling, but still.

The Warrior of Darkness is the one I think you're considering. Looking at it again, you have a good point; it is pretty bad. Nothing about it really tracks all that well, and it's a lot of effort for some fairly small bonuses.

Doug Lampert
2009-04-10, 02:02 PM
To steal a line from Lois Bujold:

"Don't worry, they couldn't possibly hit us at this ra-"

She stole it from Maj. Gen. John Sedwick. Whose actual last words were:
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Often presented as
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...." but I believe the first hand accounts indicated that he got out the whole sentance prior to being shot dead in the face.

Keld Denar
2009-04-10, 02:44 PM
There is a use for Dragon Disciple! Well, kinda...

You take it after you finish your Suel Arcanamach spellcasting (usually Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1) and it continues to give you 5th level spell slots and some pretty slick stat increases! 4 levels are totally worth it at that point.

Also, if you want to mitigate your blood loss from Blood Magus, you can nab the feat Minor Shapeshift from Complete Mage. As long as you keep a 4th level or higher spells from the Polymorph subschool memorized, you can spend a swift action to gain CL temp hp which can then be bled out to pay for your Force Cages and Animate Deads. Might be good if you could do it in Gestalt to make up for the spellcaster level loss or if it was simply houseruled to be a full caster.

woodenbandman
2009-04-10, 03:21 PM
First Nominee
Witch Slayer - melee PrC that if focused on fighting binders and possessed creatures, Blech

Whut? Witch Slayer is a good PrC and here is why:

For any class based on charisma (paladin, Marshall, Samurai), this class offers you good stuff. Not just your standard good stuff. Real good stuff. Paladins clearly get the most out of this because they get mettle at level 2. That's downright nigh-on IMMUNITY to anything requiring a fortitude or will save, because you certainly have, like, +20s. Also, it has 2 good saves, a good hit die, and full base attack bonus. The Smite attacks are lame, for sure. but look at level 4: Slippery Mind. That combined with divine grace, force of personality, and mettle, ensures that you will never be mind controlled, even when the wizard is.

Final thing: Momentary Disjunction is AWESOME. You have just Antimagic Fielded the BBEG, except the druid's still a giant hairy bear eating his face, the Cleric is still huge and wailing on him, the Wizard's summons are still here. This is the most awesome ability any beatstick could ever dream of, it has the DC of a 10th level spell starting at level 10, and it can be amped up with Ability Focus. It only lasts a round, but a round of unbuffed wizard can be all you need sometimes. This prestige class is very good because it makes the tank more tanky and it gives him something to do while he's tanking.

Yo, dawg. I heard you like tanking, but we put abilities on yo tank so you can be useful while you tank!

I nominate the Vigilante prestige class from Complete Arcane. It wants to be batman so badly.

Seconding the Blighter, but I disagree with the sentiment that Evangelist is bad. It's got some abilities in it that make a diplomancer (a perfectly legal and sensible way to combat your foes) really really good.

Fizban
2009-04-10, 03:52 PM
I'd like to point out that the 3.5 Blood Magus only loses 2 levels of casting, at 5th and 10th. Still not very good, but not nearly as bad. I'm pretty sure they also changed it so even free spell components cost 1hp, but it also gives you a +1 DC on any spell you use it with. AFB but I think they put it in Complete Arcane.

Draken
2009-04-10, 04:25 PM
Tes, but the new blood magus can't use his blood to pay for a costly material component (more than 1 gp).

Eeezee
2009-04-10, 05:03 PM
Blood Magus (complete arcane) isn't so bad. Someone mentioned that you're a d4 caster, but the Blood Magus is actually a d6 HD. The one thing that is truly lame about it is that you have to be an arcane caster who has been killed and brought back to life, and the feat requirements suck (Toughness is +3hp, what an awful feat). And you get fewer skills than even a sorcerer.

BUT you only lose two caster levels and in exchange can trade 1 HP to boost a spell's CL by 1. He's never required to lose health, it's just an option. He also gets a huge boost on concentration checks from damage, becomes automatically stable on death checks (a Fatespinner ability), a Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion variant (you inscribe the scroll/potion into your flesh/bood, this causes no damage, useless but cool), Death Knell 1/day (pretty good for a 3rd level ability), and a few other useful tricks. You can transfer damage from yourself to your homonculus making it a walking blood bank. And at 9th level you get a permanent +2 Con score.

Yes, it's certainly not the best PrC, but it's far from being the worst. It's almost decent if you're a non-Wizard arcane spellcaster, such as a Bard or Beguiler.



I also don't see the problem with Swanmay. It's far from the worst PrC ever. I'd rather be a Swanmay than a True Necromancer. The first level gives you the stupid Swan transformation, but if you just think of it as a travel form (60ft fly) with DR 5/cold iron then it's not so bad. Your class features include SR, you only lose one CL, you get full BAB, and you get a bunch of Charm and Speak with X abilities. The capstone is actually DR 10/cold iron, not bad at all.

Again, it might not be the best PrC, but it's far from being the worst.

Draken
2009-04-10, 05:09 PM
The Toughness prerequisite doesn't have to be such a problem. I remember that one of the books with Improved Toughness (Either Libris Mortis, Complete Warrior or another), has a sidebar saying that you can use that feat as if it were Normal Toughness for pre-requisites.

---

And Swanmay is not bad, just silly.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-10, 05:30 PM
And Swanmay is not bad, just silly.

very very very silly but yes, the BoED version is perfectly workable and hey, it's not like it's even close to the most redonkulous thing spit out by the well adjusted wizards down by the beach.

Tengu_temp
2009-04-10, 05:36 PM
I'd like to point out that the concept of swanmays is at least as old as middle ages, if not older - Wizards have not created it.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-10, 05:40 PM
I'd like to point out that the concept of swanmays is at least as old as middle ages, if not older - Wizards have not created it.

Like historical accuracy has ever stopped the stupidity, if fact the stuff they just dragged wholesale out of the lead poisened minds of some sex starved illinformed medivael monk that has never travelled more than twenty miles from his home hovel has always been the most hilariously bizarre. (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm)

Chronos
2009-04-10, 06:59 PM
The Toughness prerequisite doesn't have to be such a problem. I remember that one of the books with Improved Toughness (Either Libris Mortis, Complete Warrior or another), has a sidebar saying that you can use that feat as if it were Normal Toughness for pre-requisites.That, and if you dabble in incarnum, you can also use Azure Toughness and at least get a point of essentia out of it.

mostlyharmful, I sort of thought that that link was going to go to the buer. Most of the things on that page are from the diseased imaginations of 20th-century game designers, but Buer the starfish-shaped lion thing is genuine 100% medieval monk diseased imagination.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-10, 07:04 PM
mostlyharmful, I sort of thought that that link was going to go to the buer. Most of the things on that page are from the diseased imaginations of 20th-century game designers, but Buer the starfish-shaped lion thing is genuine 100% medieval monk diseased imagination.

I rather thought that was my point. They are the absolute worst posible bunch of crap any real company ever came up with and the worst of them all (in my opnion at least) is the god awful concoction that has actual historical background.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-10, 07:24 PM
I rather thought that was my point. They are the absolute worst posible bunch of crap any real company ever came up with and the worst of them all (in my opnion at least) is the god awful concoction that has actual historical background.

Those of us who enjoy folklore and mythology feel differently.

People all over the world have stories of people that can turn into animals and vice-versa. They tend to be animals that are respected for the danger, beauty, cleverness, etc - Were-hyeana in Africa, Fox Fairies, in Japan, etc. The Swan Maiden is a pretty cool one, in my opinion.

Oh, and btw, the DnD Swan Maiden is also rooted in the modern fantasy classic Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson. A swan maiden was one of the main characters, and the book was one of Gygax's big sources of inspiration when creating the 1st Edition, though the swanmay itself didn't make it into the rules until MM2 as a creature, not a class.

As for it sucking/not sucking as a class, think of the transformation as an at will Overland Flight combined with a disguise spell, neither of which can be dispelled. Not too useful if you're dungeon crawling all the time, but great for outdoor settings.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-11, 02:07 AM
I still contend that Swanmay should not be on the list at all. Look it up on the Book of Exalted Deeds, it's really not bad at all (I don't know where SurlySeraph got his version from, but it's not the published version.)

I got it at the first Google result, here (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Tower/8841/3rdedition/swanmay.html).
On reflection, it's not as terrible as Survivor. I still say it's worse than Ranger, but it's definitely not as bad as Survivor. Or Green Star Adept, for that matter.
It's still very, very silly though.

@V: But laziness is my friend! Besides, I assumed it was just a 3.0 class; I had no idea it was in the BoED.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-11, 02:18 AM
I got it at the first Google result, here (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Tower/8841/3rdedition/swanmay.html).
On reflection, it's not as terrible as Survivor. I still say it's worse than Ranger, but it's definitely not as bad as Survivor. Or Green Star Adept, for that matter.
It's still very, very silly though.

That seems to be a fan made class, and I don't think it's 3.5(the ranger abilities don't work that way, it uses 3.0 skills). Plus, it doesn't match the crystalkeep version at all(different skills, different abilities, different prerequisites, different BaB, etc.). Might want to check these things more carefully.

Quietus
2009-04-11, 02:43 AM
Dunno if they've been mentioned yet (no time to read the last three pages), but... Order of the Bow Initiate and Reaping Mauler are both pretty terrible. One gives up a full attack to do a few extra d8's of damage. The other focusses on grappling, but can't enlarge itself without losing its class abilities.

Zincorium
2009-04-11, 02:50 AM
Reaping Mauler loses access to clever wrestling. It doesn't lose the feat.

If you actually enforce chains like that, yeah, they suck horribly, but just the loss of clever wrestling isn't that bad. And it's a decent class if you just replace that feat requirement with something else.

Kantolin
2009-04-11, 04:35 AM
I also question 'Reaping Mauler' being put in there. Nobody in their right mind would enforce the 'you lose your class abilities when enlarged' motif, and it's alright for a grappler otherwise.

Only other class I can think of that really helps a grappler is something like bear warrior to get a huge strength bonus, but that requires you to go barbarian. A fighter/Reaping Mauler can grapple well enough.

May I question the Risen Martyr? I mean, the class's abilities are actually kind of neat, but when you look at this list:

- No spellcasting progression at all.
- 2 + intelligence skill points
- Poor (Wizard-like) Base attack Bonus

So net/net, uh. Who actually wants to be in this class? Fighter-types hate the stab to the BAB, Caster-types hate the loss of spellcasting, skill-types hate the loss of skills, and when you hit level 10, you die.

Although you can probably get away with a dip, as level 0 (Heh) Risen martyr gives you +2 to will saves, and while it removes your con score, it lets you reroll all your hit die as d12s, which could be an increase depending. And at level 1, it boosts your charisma while giving you charisma to AC.

But the class does state that once you start taking RM levels, you cannot take any other class levels until you're done with it... and let's be honest here. >_>

I love the flavor of it, though, and thus have played a risen martyr anyway. But it's certainly not much of a class.

KIDS
2009-04-11, 04:44 AM
I nominate the Holy Spirit/Scourge from Complete Mage and Nightmare Spinner, also from Complete Mage. First is a warlock anti-evil PrC that gives up most of your invocations and progression to add 5-10 dmg to a few attacks against evil creatures a few times per day, just depressing. Nightmare Spinner looks cool, but almost all of its effects have the clausule "creature who was affected or resisted once is immune afterwards", making it fairly pointless for its meager caster levels.

Truth be told, I was surprised to see brokenations such as Abjurant Champion, Smoky Conjuration and Residual Metamagic in the book filled with so many crappy PrCs.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-11, 05:55 AM
Those of us who enjoy folklore and mythology feel differently.

People all over the world have stories of people that can turn into animals and vice-versa. They tend to be animals that are respected for the danger, beauty, cleverness, etc - Were-hyeana in Africa, Fox Fairies, in Japan, etc. The Swan Maiden is a pretty cool one, in my opinion.

If I didn't agree with you it wouldn't bug me so much. There's almost no end to the great stuff that mythology and folklore have come up with, certainly decades worth of output from any PRG company but there's also a big bunch of very very weak idiocy out there too. The stuff you're talking about I'd put in the first camp, the lion-seven-legged-wheelie-thing I'd put in the second and get annoyed by because it's wasted space that could have gone to something better.

Quietus
2009-04-11, 09:07 AM
Just because most DMs won't ENFORCE the fact that losing Clever Wrestling = losing benefits of Reaping Mauler doesn't mean that, by RAW, this is how it works. I agree, hell, I wouldn't even remove the feat for them being enlarged in the first place, but AS THINGS AS ARE WRITTEN, the moment someone casts Enlarge Person on you, your grapple modifier doesn't change (Or may actually go DOWN, due to loss of Improved Grapple and the +1/2 grapple bonus), and you totally forget how to use a sleeper hold. Whut?


Nimbus is needed to pick up Stigmarta. Now if you've got a forgiving DM, he'll let you take temporery CON damage to the CON stat you don't have to full heal anyone (Aside from yourself) whenever you want...

Any sencible DM will ban this of course...

Am I mistaken, or for undead, doesn't ability damage to con go to Charisma instead, the way that for normal people ability damage to a physical score gets sent to con if that score is 0?

Zincorium
2009-04-11, 02:10 PM
Just because most DMs won't ENFORCE the fact that losing Clever Wrestling = losing benefits of Reaping Mauler doesn't mean that, by RAW, this is how it works. I agree, hell, I wouldn't even remove the feat for them being enlarged in the first place, but AS THINGS AS ARE WRITTEN, the moment someone casts Enlarge Person on you, your grapple modifier doesn't change (Or may actually go DOWN, due to loss of Improved Grapple and the +1/2 grapple bonus), and you totally forget how to use a sleeper hold. Whut?

You aren't losing the feat- it's still on your character sheet, you simply can't use it. If not using it means you don't have it for the purposes of PrCs, that's a house rule and not RAW. If you LOST the feat, it would be different. And it still sucks to be enlarged due to a loss of +4 when it really would be nice to have.


Am I mistaken, or for undead, doesn't ability damage to con go to Charisma instead, the way that for normal people ability damage to a physical score gets sent to con if that score is 0?

Concentration gets based off of charisma rather than constitution, otherwise there's no specific rule for it.

In any case, undead are simply immune to damage to their physical ability scores and immune to ability drain outright.

monty
2009-04-11, 02:14 PM
Am I mistaken, or for undead, doesn't ability damage to con go to Charisma instead, the way that for normal people ability damage to a physical score gets sent to con if that score is 0?

I don't recall ever seeing a rule of this sort. Maybe it was different in 3.0, or maybe you're thinking of a houserule.