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View Full Version : [3.5] Making touch/ranged touch spells less broken



Myou
2009-04-08, 02:28 PM
A Shivering Touch does 3d6 dex damage, no save, a Ray of stupidity does 1d4+1 int damge, no save.

Since effects like this are just so broken I'm considering requiring spells that allow no saving throw to allow a save, but a save of the caster's choice.

For example, when his by the aforementioned ray the victim must make a reflex, fortitue or will save, but which is up to the caster.


Do you think that works?

Should it only apply to ability damage spells?

RTGoodman
2009-04-08, 02:36 PM
I don't think that the caster should get to pick the save; I think you should just pick by spell. Ray of stupidity should probably use a Will save, while shivering ray would use Reflex.

That would still make them usable spells, since it's such a huge effect and, well, it's not like you're going to be missing that initial touch attack much anyway.


EDIT: Or what Keld Denar says - I was just looking up ray of exhaustion to see how it worked when he posted anyway.

Keld Denar
2009-04-08, 02:37 PM
Honestly, with those 2, I'd just make em exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumisiness. Non-self-stacking penalties that can't reduce the stat to less than 1. Still good? Yes. Game breaking? Not any more so than RoE and RoC.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-08, 02:37 PM
Don't do it to any spells. Ranged Touched Spells are much weaker then spells that have saves, Shivering Touch is a problem, but it's seriously just that one spell.

If you give these things saves, they just become straight worse then versions that already exist.

Myou
2009-04-08, 02:41 PM
Honestly, with those 2, I'd just make em exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumisiness. Non-self-stacking penalties that can't reduce the stat to less than 1. Still good? Yes. Game breaking? Not any more so than RoE and RoC.

Wow, that's a much better solution! Thanks SuperKeld! =D


/thread xD

monty
2009-04-08, 02:42 PM
Don't do it to any spells. Ranged Touched Spells are much weaker then spells that have saves, Shivering Touch is a problem, but it's seriously just that one spell.

If you give these things saves, they just become straight worse then versions that already exist.

This. People always seem to underestimate the difficulty of making touch attacks at low levels (and at high levels, wizards are broken in so many other ways that it doesn't matter). Wizards get low BAB, generally have other stats to prioritize over +hit, and aren't likely to be getting an enhancement bonus to their attacks. Sure, you may be hitting against AC 10, but when you're only getting +2 to +3 on your attack, it's no more reliable than a save-based spell.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-08, 04:13 PM
Don't do it to any spells. Ranged Touched Spells are much weaker then spells that have saves, Shivering Touch is a problem, but it's seriously just that one spell.

If you give these things saves, they just become straight worse then versions that already exist.

The only problems I have with Shivering Touch is Metamagic and the Wyrm Wizard PrC+Duskblade's Full Attack Arcane Channeling.

Oh, and the spell is poorly written.

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 04:34 PM
People always seem to underestimate the difficulty of making touch attacks at low levels (and at high levels, wizards are broken in so many other ways that it doesn't matter). Wizards get low BAB, generally have other stats to prioritize over +hit, and aren't likely to be getting an enhancement bonus to their attacks. Sure, you may be hitting against AC 10, but when you're only getting +2 to +3 on your attack, it's no more reliable than a save-based spell.

Yup. Most people also forget that you get -4 to ranged attcks vs. anything in melee combat with your allies.

If you take the time and resources to use a (quickened) true strike, that's fine, imo. You also could have used two color sprays, glitterdusts, etc. instead and gotten the same, if not better results.

TWF rogue + glitterdust = a level 1 fireball. It's insane how good glitterdust is when there's sneak attack damage in the party.

Talic
2009-04-08, 04:46 PM
Ranged Touch spells? Perhaps. Dex isn't usually a dump stat for casters. They're no more accurate against most foes than a bow. They're more limited, and more powerful. OK, if a spell is too strong, look at it, evaluate it, and nerf it. Excellent idea on the non-stacking penalty.

Melee touch? Mages need so many defensive spells up to make melee a safe proposition... You're not looking at the one spell. You're looking at everything they need to cast to get there.

Cause if they don't have the defense, they die just as quick to attacks, as they kill to spells.

Chronos
2009-04-08, 06:46 PM
TWF rogue + glitterdust = a level 1 fireball. It's insane how good glitterdust is when there's sneak attack damage in the party.No, that's a second-level fireball. A first-level fireball would be Grease and a rogue.

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 06:51 PM
No, that's a second-level fireball. A first-level fireball would be Grease and a rogue.

Yeah, I wanted to fix that, but the forums weren't working good.

But, um, precocious apprentice?