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afroakuma
2009-04-08, 09:44 PM
Well, Uber-caster 20, anyway. Even Incantatrix.

Can a 20th level standard caster (9th level spell access, in other words) be killed without overoptimization, core-only?

Can a 20th level standard caster be killed without overoptimization, given all first-party 3.X resources?

Overoptimization: relying on enough damage to melt the victim into a molecular puddle in a single hit, relying on a cheesed-out strategy (Omniscifier, Pun-Pun), relying on the same stuff your opponent has and a better initiative role (any other full caster), relying on a questionable rules interpretation (Crusader's killer shuriken, locate city nuke) or anything else that would either break the game (some examples (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-897351.html)) or is noticeably far above "comparable" core power levels and comes from a non-core source.

So ideally, avoiding using another wizard or another full caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, archivist, what have you) or artificier (considered around par with these) and without exploiting cheese such as candle of invocation loops, shape changing to wacky monsters, gated armies of solars or Diplomancying a god to do it for you, is there any way to accomplish either of the above goals?

And I do mean anything (short of the Epic Level Handbook). Dragon with class levels? Good to go. Chronotyryn? Have at it.

chiasaur11
2009-04-08, 09:50 PM
Well, Ao and the Lady of Pain could do it.

Or...

Duh.

A Wizard 21.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 09:56 PM
In Core, it isn't even especially difficult - sure, there'll be the Contingency to deal with and probably some manner of Divination-effects (giving the Wizard an idea to expect you) and Moment of Prescience and so on, but getting him within a Dimensional Lock and surprising him should get the job done.

Dimensional Lock disables most of the Wizard's easy defenses, forcing him to use Walls, Fogs and so on without the ability to be anywhere he chooses to. Of course, this is provided that the Wizard isn't utilizing some Astral Projection/Plane Shift trickery, but as Genesis isn't Core, he'd technically be mortal while doing this too as someone can just find his real body and go postal.


But yeah, a Core-only Wizard can die. An all-sources Wizard...well, you'd need some seriously powerful things, like an overdeity to hunt one down. Basically, if you have the power to destroy entire planes, it should be possible. Pinpointing him would most likely not be.


I'd like to point out that e.g. Great Wyrm Red Dragon is basically a Sorcerer 19 Gish, and thus it's easily within its capabilities to kill a Core Wizard as it has access to all the same tricks, along with a bunch of epic feats and what have you.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-08, 09:59 PM
Abusing non-associated class levels seems to be the easiest core option. A Stone Giant is CR8 base, with 14 Giant HD. Using the Elite array and adding 14 levels of Wizard pushes it up to CR15, at which point you can add another 5 levels of Wizard before hitting CR 20. End result is a Stone Giant Wizard 19 with 14d10+19d4 HD. Putting the 15 from the Elite array into Intelligence and spending all 4 stat boosts in Int gets Int 19 and the ability to use 9th level spells. Plus, he has the potential to take up to 4 Epic feats because he breaches 21HD after 6 levels of Wizard, all at only CR20.

monty
2009-04-08, 09:59 PM
In core, it's possible, but difficult. Out of core, with persisted everything and a lot more defensive spells, it's probably impossible against a sufficiently prepared caster.

Also, it seems everyone is missing the qualifications, like "not using another caster against it."

The Glyphstone
2009-04-08, 10:02 PM
That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 10:02 PM
In Core, it isn't even especially difficult - sure, there'll be the Contingency to deal with and probably some manner of Divination-effects (giving the Wizard an idea to expect you) and Moment of Prescience and so on, but getting him within a Dimensional Lock and surprising him should get the job done.

I assume you're getting a rogue or bard to supply the dimensional lock, since no full casting classes are allowed in this challenge?

And what about time stop?


But yeah, a Core-only Wizard can die. An all-sources Wizard...well, you'd need some seriously powerful things, like an overdeity to hunt one down. Basically, if you have the power to destroy entire planes, it should be possible. Pinpointing him would most likely not be.

What specifically would you need to eliminate from all-sources to limit such a wizard? Besides genesis, for obvious reasons...


That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

In which case your answer is not "X kind of caster," it is "no."

monty
2009-04-08, 10:08 PM
That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

The question was "Can you beat a level 20 wizard without using another full caster?" Your answer was "Yes, but with a full caster." This is not an appropriate answer.

And ninja'ed by the OP.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-08, 10:12 PM
The question was "Can you beat a level 20 wizard without using another full caster?" Your answer was "Yes, but with a full caster." This is not an appropriate answer.

And ninja'ed by the OP.

That would be because I missed the line that said 'without using a full caster' until after I had made a response, at which point I edited/reposted.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 10:19 PM
I assume you're getting a rogue or bard to supply the dimensional lock, since no full casting classes are allowed in this challenge?

And what about time stop?

Time Stop is no problem if they never get to cast it. Most important function of Dimensional Lock is to pre-empt most Contingencies. And yeah, UMD Dimensional Lock - expensive, but bleh.


In core, it's possible, but difficult. Out of core, with persisted everything and a lot more defensive spells, it's probably impossible against a sufficiently prepared caster.

Also, it seems everyone is missing the qualifications, like "not using another caster against it."

It was specifically stated that a Dragon is a fair game. That said, yea, having CL 19 casting feels like breaking the terms.


At any rate, to touch upon the problems outside Core:
-Astral Projection + Plane Shift allows you to act perfectly normal while being immortal for all practical purposes.
-Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank effectively make you undetectable (subject to some dissent - Nondetection has also been thrown around, but it's not reliable as it allows for a CL check)
-Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have contingent Celerities/Time Stops/whatever equal to your HD made to trigger either on speaking (free action, can be done wherever) or "hostile action towards you", or some such. Point being, 20 extra contingencies is kinda overkill.
-Celerity+Foresight means that the Wizard goes first against everyone without access to Celerity. Moment of Prescience further means that Wizard wins initiative against everyone without.
-Contact Other Plane means that he's effectively prepared for whatever is gonna happen. As there're no natural 1s on ability checks, as long as he has 40 Int, he's never gonna go dumb talking to Greater Deities (although he could arrange a contingent restoration even if he did risk it), and with Spontaneous Divination he'll always be able to cast the spell a few times and do a few lines of questioning on which spells to prepare tomorrow.


Those are the worst offenders off the top of my head. There're certainly others though, but if that bunch was controlled, the Wizard may be at a slight risk of death.

You may be interested in Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0)-thread - it covers most of the common combos a Wizard runs. Some discussion on whether it were theorethically possible to kill one here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3576.0). During this discussion, I grew an entirely new respect towards Weapons of Legacy as they allow martial characters to replicate many of Wizard's tricks.

Draz74
2009-04-08, 10:24 PM
What specifically would you need to eliminate from all-sources to limit such a wizard? Besides genesis, for obvious reasons...

Mind Blank (so that you can fight divination with divination)
Celerity (& co.)

I think those would be the two biggest offenders.

Of course, instead of eliminating Mind Blank, you could just make more effects that specifically pierce it. That's not out of line for 9th-level effects, as demonstrated by the Metafaculty psionic power (which, even if there's no house rules to help out, should be one of the staple tools for anyone planning to go on high-level-wizard-hunts).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 10:26 PM
Hmmm...

I don't see how it will be done, as long as Foresight, Contingency, and Time Stop are in the picture.

About the best I can do is use a Rogue with a Scroll of Dimensional Anchor (better than DimLock, because the Rogue is most likely going to be able to hit on a RTA from concealment, and prevents the wizard from Time Stopping and running out of the area to teleport out). However, there is no way to prevent Time Stop from occurring. Without Time Stop, the Rogue can try to use a Scroll of Disintegrate and kill the Wizard that way. Or you can try the Gatling Thrower which uses Rogue/Swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower to dish out extremely obnoxious number of attacks with loads of Precision-Based Damage. Failing that, a Wand of Scorching Ray also works to load on precision-based damage.

If the rogue is able to attack from surprise in a surprise round before the Wizard can act, with a Dimensional Anchor, and remain hidden, then he has a chance. In Core, he doesn't have access to Contingency Celerity -> Time Stop combo.

So in Core, a Rogue, using Hide and Move Silently, using Magic Aura to conceal any traces of magical items auras, might have a chance, depending on how the Contingency was worded, and if the Wizard had Foresight up.

Out of Core, there is no way. Period. Contingency Celerity -> Time Stop = Win Button that cannot be averted.

monty
2009-04-08, 10:36 PM
It was specifically stated that a Dragon is a fair game. That said, yea, having CL 19 casting feels like breaking the terms.

That and you're using a CR 26 monster against him, which should be extraordinarily difficult for a level 20 party, and you've probably at best given him an equal challenge.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 10:39 PM
Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

Crow
2009-04-08, 10:39 PM
You'll have to goad the wizard into staying around long enough to lay down a dimensional lock. In CORE, you can contingency teleport with a trigger of "When I cast feather fall", which combined with foresight means the wizard can leave at any time he likes.

Psions have a similar ability in detect hostile intent and catfall.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 10:42 PM
Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

Superior Invisibility still means that the Wizard can never be found ever. And Craft Contingent Spell means that the Wizard acts first 20-100 times if anyone dares bother him. Those two should at least get axe.

RandomFellow
2009-04-08, 10:46 PM
Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 10:47 PM
Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

And no Invoke Magic, which allows casting in an AMF. Seriously, why Grapple if you get him into an AMF? Shouldn't you just kill him then? I mean, Wizards don't exactly have triple digit AC or hundreds of HP in AMFs.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 10:48 PM
Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

If we get rid of Time Stop, Foresight, and Contingency, then he can be beaten in Core. Otherwise, he will know something bad will happen with Foresight, then Teleport away.

Out of Core, he still has too many win buttons and 'no' buttons.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 10:48 PM
True seeing beats it, but I can see the concern. Craft Contingent Spell is far too rife for abuse, so that's definitely banished.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 10:51 PM
True seeing beats it, but I can see the concern. Craft Contingent Spell is far too rife for abuse, so that's definitely banished.

It's not unreasonable to rule that True Seeing loses to Mind Blank, that's the problem (the opposite ruling is defendable too, though, but easier just to get rid of Superior Invis). Mind Blank blocks Divinations and True Seeing is a Divination.

Also, you basically need to be something with permanent True Seeing to truly threaten a Wizard with Persisted Superior Invis, and that's provided that you're getting a favourable ruling there. Really, that spell shouldn't exist. Technically you can beat it with an Epic Spot-check (something like DC 60), but really, it just shouldn't exist, period.

streakster
2009-04-08, 10:51 PM
Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

Sadly, no. Foresight means no surprise round. Various spells and feats mean that he can fight just fine in an AMF.

I tried something like that once, so trust me here. It's annoying as all heck.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 10:53 PM
To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

Beating Mirror Image will be more difficult, you WILL need True Sight for that.

Crow
2009-04-08, 10:55 PM
Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

monty
2009-04-08, 10:56 PM
To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

I assume you meant Superior Invisibility, in which case no, because it explicitly ignores both of those spells.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 10:56 PM
To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

No they don't. That's the very problem.

EDIT:


Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

It's a bit complicated. Generally it depends on what you're doing. IT doesn't need to detect you to detect that his lung is about to be punctured or that he's about to end up in an anti-magic field.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 10:57 PM
It's not unreasonable to rule that True Seeing loses to Mind Blank, that's the problem (the opposite ruling is defendable too, though, but easier just to get rid of Superior Invis). Mind Blank blocks Divinations and True Seeing is a Divination.

It's this kind of RAW failure that I hate. It technically allows dimension door in an antimagic field, which is just silly.


Also, you basically need to be something with permanent True Seeing to truly threaten a Wizard with Persisted Superior Invis

Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell? :smallconfused:

streakster
2009-04-08, 10:57 PM
Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

I don't believe it does... after all, Foresight just says flat "You are never surprised or flat-footed." Nothing about other creatures there at all. I could be wrong though.

monty
2009-04-08, 10:59 PM
Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell? :smallconfused:

Incantatrix, or an artificer ally (if you cast it from an item), or probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:00 PM
Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell? :smallconfused:

There're tons of ways to persist spells without adjustment. The easiest is Incantatrix - all you need is a Spellcraft check to Persist it.

EDIT: Ninja'd twice in a row. Way to go monty, way to go. I think I'll give you Ninja of the Month-award. Happy?

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 11:01 PM
*sigh* I forgot... the wonderful world of brokenness.

monty
2009-04-08, 11:03 PM
EDIT: Ninja'd twice in a row. Way to go monty, way to go. I think I'll give you Ninja of the Month-award. Happy?

Yes, quite happy.

RandomFellow
2009-04-08, 11:03 PM
And no Invoke Magic, which allows casting in an AMF. Seriously, why Grapple if you get him into an AMF? Shouldn't you just kill him then? I mean, Wizards don't exactly have triple digit AC or hundreds of HP in AMFs.
I meant Core Only.

The reason for the grapple is the Wizard can walk out of an AMF against a Rogue 18 + Choker and live long enough to cast Timestop.


Sadly, no. Foresight means no surprise round.
Which only lasts ~3 hours / day.

He can't keep it up 24/7 every day.



Various spells and feats mean that he can fight just fine in an AMF.

I tried something like that once, so trust me here. It's annoying as all heck.
No. Core only Wiz 20 can't break AMF if he is grappled in it.

streakster
2009-04-08, 11:04 PM
There's some Binder vestige taht gives Mindblank as an ability, I believe. That should at least take care of that requirement easily enough.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:07 PM
Which only lasts ~3 hours / day.

He can't keep it up 24/7 every day.

He can use Contact Other Plane to determine when he needs to keep it up each day. Also, with a Greater Rod of Extend Spell, he can technically keep it up all day (3 castings lasts ~22 hours given CL 22 from Ioun Stone & Ring).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:08 PM
Outside of Core, the Joker Bard I have listed has a good chance at inconveniencing him. He's impossible to find, and can readily convince significantly large groups of people that the wizard needs to die using Mass Suggestion with his Bardic Music ability.

However, if the wizard actually figures out which individual the Joker Bard is, he's dead.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:12 PM
There's some Binder vestige taht gives Mindblank as an ability, I believe. That should at least take care of that requirement easily enough.

You can also get it from a Weapon of Legacy. As I said before, they're really great for this. You get:
-Cunning (never flat-footed - hooray for our own immediate actions, like Island in Time!)
-Moment of Prescience (we're actually game for that initiative check!)
-Personal Mind Blank (obvious)


Really, I'd build an Eternal Blade Archer much like the one I used in the mage hunt with Talic, Solo, Turcano, Sam & al. I'd get him some Phase Arrows and ability to go Incorporeal and a Weapon of Legacy with some choice Legacies (Creature Compass can be used to detect people hiding inside walls) - it'll save you the price of Ring of Mind Blank and so much more.

Should prolly make it a Gauntlet or Dagger or some auxillary weapon though as using Legacy-abilities to enchant it takes valuable slots and makes it frankly poor for the purpose at hands, so you should have a standard magic weapon as your actual weapon, and Weapon of Legacy as a tool to provide you with everything else.

streakster
2009-04-08, 11:13 PM
Wait, I just forgot. The wizard is wearing a hat that is a Shrink-Itemed adamantine cone.

We can't use AMF to take him out.

Who came up with that trick, anyway?

Occasional Sage
2009-04-08, 11:13 PM
How about a build based around the Suel Arcanamach (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829) PrC? I've always thought these look tasty, although I haven't gotten around to playing one yet.

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:16 PM
How about a build based around the Suel Arcanamach (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829) PrC? I've always thought these look tasty, although I haven't gotten around to playing one yet.

They're good for caster monster (take Demons, for example) killing, but actual spellcasters unfortunately have them vastly outgunned due to their superior casting ability and their ease of keeping you from reaching them - means you can't use your Dispelling Strikes and all that.

Basically, they're decent Duskbladeish characters, but mage slayers they ain't.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:18 PM
How about a build based around the Suel Arcanamach (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829) PrC? I've always thought these look tasty, although I haven't gotten around to playing one yet.

That is still using a caster, which is kind of against the rules of this test.

afroakuma
2009-04-08, 11:18 PM
So how do you deal with an Incantatrix who's ready to Split Chain enervate your entire party? Or crack off an orb of fire lethal enough to slay a 40th level raging barbarian?

monty
2009-04-08, 11:23 PM
So how do you deal with an Incantatrix who's ready to Split Chain enervate your entire party? Or crack off an orb of fire lethal enough to slay a 40th level raging barbarian?

You forgot that they're also doing this while flying, super-invisible, immune to practically everything...

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:24 PM
So how do you deal with an Incantatrix who's ready to Split Chain enervate your entire party? Or crack off an orb of fire lethal enough to slay a 40th level raging barbarian?

Have DM ban Incantatrixes. That's always a good plan. If that isn't an option, hit first. If that fails, have him miss (against casters, it's always pivotal to pump your Touch AC to high heavens so they need to use True Strike, and preferably so high that even that isn't a guarantee).

If possible, have some manner of ray deflection/negative energy immunity/generic defensive magic online (or even just a total immunity to everything for a turn - there's an item in Magic Item Compendium named Scarab of Invulnerability that grants that), and pack Revivify-type abilities in the party to revive a fallen comrade.


If I have a Cunning Weapon of Legacy and Island in Time, when he casts his spell, I can activate Island in Time and respond by turning him into swiss.

EDIT: Or at least to activate one Contingency. Now with that gone, if he's still detectable somewhere, I can keep turning him into swiss cheese.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:24 PM
So how do you deal with an Incantatrix who's ready to Split Chain enervate your entire party? Or crack off an orb of fire lethal enough to slay a 40th level raging barbarian?

If he doesn't have Foresight up? It's called Hide and Move Silently. His Spot and Listen checks are going to be lousy compared to any Rogue. Heck, a Rogue can take a -20 to a Hide check, if he is good, and use the Snipe rules to remain hidden while popping shots.

You can't shoot what you can't find...

Demons_eye
2009-04-08, 11:29 PM
Mindrape his best friend and have him do it?

Eldariel
2009-04-08, 11:32 PM
If he doesn't have Foresight up? It's called Hide and Move Silently. His Spot and Listen checks are going to be lousy compared to any Rogue. Heck, a Rogue can take a -20 to a Hide check, if he is good, and use the Snipe rules to remain hidden while popping shots.

You can't shoot what you can't find...

Wouldn't that just cause him to Gate something with infinite Spot/Listen and a really mean temper, or teleport out, have his Contingency resolve or cast Wind Wall between you two (provided that the shots are coming from afar)? Definitely go for lethal in one turn - long fight means that the Wizard's superior bag of tricks wins out.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-08, 11:36 PM
Wouldn't that just cause him to Gate something with infinite Spot/Listen and a really mean temper, or teleport out, have his Contingency resolve or cast Wind Wall between you two (provided that the shots are coming from afar)? Definitely go for lethal in one turn - long fight means that the Wizard's superior bag of tricks wins out.

Nothing in Core he can gate in like that very easily.

Teleporting is handled by your first shot being with a UMD Scroll of Dimensional Anchor. Wind Wall won't stop your Wand of Scorching Ray.

You *could* try to one-round KO him with a Scroll of Disintegrate, but that isn't a guaranteed kill, depending on what the effective caster level is.

streakster
2009-04-08, 11:40 PM
Would permanent Arcane Sight allow the wizard to see the auras of the equipment of the hidee?

It think there was just a thread like that.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-08, 11:43 PM
People are forgetting the most powerful Wizard defensive buffs in Core:Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) and Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm). You may win for a couple hours, while he sits in his Impenetrable Fortress of Doom(TM) and puts that 34 Int to use, but you're probably dead before you finish your first celebratory drink.

Occasional Sage
2009-04-08, 11:44 PM
That is still using a caster, which is kind of against the rules of this test.

Not a primary caster, though, which in the OP was the thing to dodge:



So ideally, avoiding using another wizard or another full caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, archivist, what have you) or artificier (considered around par with these)

The Arcanamach is designed to kill primary casters, from exactly the "disadvantageous" position Afroakuma is positing.

chiasaur11
2009-04-08, 11:54 PM
People are forgetting the most powerful Wizard defensive buffs in Core:Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) and Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm). You may win for a couple hours, while he sits in his Impenetrable Fortress of Doom(TM) and puts that 34 Int to use, but you're probably dead before you finish your first celebratory drink.

Ah, you forget.

These are adventurers. They get get sloshed in less time than most people take to blink.

VirOath
2009-04-09, 01:21 AM
It's a bit complicated. Generally it depends on what you're doing. IT doesn't need to detect you to detect that his lung is about to be punctured or that he's about to end up in an anti-magic field.

About foresight, that's the thing. It can measure intent and give a glimpse into the future, but it will not give a PC an outcome or creation of intent, just only an existence.

By that I mean that if a Rogue type character walked upto the Wizard after tracking him down just to talk with him about a few matters, Foresight won't protect him from fudging the social interaction, which is quite likely due to that PC's of that level get big headed and arrogant, hence the reason why they are problems in the first place.

Foresight would only come into play the moment that the NPC's attitude and intent changes, at which point he is always acting. And it's a simple ruling to say he casted an AMF from a ring of spell storing.

Even required init checks are possible to win. A Dex Based rogue with the right PrC gets an insane init modifier, above 20 to the roll if I remember right.

Foresight might protect them from walking into danger that already exists, like an ambush or AMF already in place, but it doesn't do jack against possible danger, otherwise it would flare up against every peasant that looked at them and drive them batty to the point of uselessness.

Social hooks and queues are the best way, with the proper magic items and preparation in case things go wrong, is the way to nuke them. Strip them of their own preparations and they are as weak as a new born baby.

Edit: And about the clone problem, that's easy. There is a material for weapons and armor in one of the source books, can't remember where, but it's a non magical effect that traps the soul of anyone that dies while touching the metal in the metal itself. It can only hold one soul, and while that soul is in the item it cannot be brought back, even by True Res or Wish.

While it may seem like an evil weapon or armor, it actually protects the user from soul stealing weapons since your soul will go into that item instead of the soul sucker. It also reduced the cost of resurrection if your soul was contained in an item like that, you lost less Exp.


Edit edit: Or if you really want to have some fun... Place a geas on one of the big bad "Run like a sissy school girl from this thing." Monsters that states it needs to kill that caster.

Or custom monsters.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-09, 01:30 AM
I think I just found a use for Arcane Archer!

Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability + Anti-Magic Field. Shoot wizard. Wizard's abilities shut down moments before arrow lands (the 10' area around the arrow hits before the arrow does), thus thwarting any contingency or other protectives.

Of course, said arcane archer can't actually do anything to HURT the wizard, who can pull the arrow out next turn, so you need a confederate, probably an Ubercharger build to turn the Wizard into a greasy smear before he can pull the arrow out.

It's an inventive use of an otherwise useless class, anyways...

Fishy
2009-04-09, 01:34 AM
I've been wondering about the Silver Key PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) for your mage-slaying needs. The 10th level ability lets you walk directly into your wizard's extradimensional hiding place. Contingency Teleport To The Other Side Of The Planet doesn't work inside a sufficiently small quasiplane, and Foresight or no, you can't act while asleep.

Of course, first you have to actually find him while beating his counter-divinations. So, nevermind.

VirOath
2009-04-09, 03:29 AM
Of course, first you have to actually find him while beating his counter-divinations. So, nevermind.

Not really. Gather Information checks to track the Wizard's location, Divination on the past for information pertaining to his travel, asking outsiders and divine beings.

You don't have to do divination directly on his hideout, you can gather information to piece to his hideout.

And the same anti-detection magic he puts on his fortress is open to you no matter your class, you just have to pay for it. And it can be put on permanently as well. So unless the player thinks things through, his divinations won't work.

Magic is powerful on paper, but no matter how completely it is written it pales to a creative mind. Hence why skills are so important.

lord_khaine
2009-04-09, 04:06 AM
-Moment of Prescience (we're actually game for that initiative check!)
have there ever been anything official on Moment of Prescience? because by the wording on it i dont belive it can be used on initiative.


People are forgetting the most powerful Wizard defensive buffs in Core:Astral Projection and Clone. You may win for a couple hours, while he sits in his Impenetrable Fortress of Doom(TM) and puts that 34 Int to use, but you're probably dead before you finish your first celebratory drink.
Yesterday 11:40 PM


actualy, if he is using Astral Projection it only becomes easyer to kill him, then all you have to do is to get a Joker bard to keep him occupied while you sneak into his Fortress of Doom and slays him.
(there is actualy a decent adventure in this)
then after he is dead you just have to either soul bind him, or track down any clones he might have growing somewhere.


Wait, I just forgot. The wizard is wearing a hat that is a Shrink-Itemed adamantine cone.

We can't use AMF to take him out.

not true, we just need a team to do it now, like fx a gnome rogue riding on the shoulders of his human monk friend.

the rogue makes sure not to use his AMF scroll before they are on grapple position, and then the wizard is suddenly caught inside his own hat.

and yes, that might be a bit silly, but then again i also think the hat trick is a stupid idea that is just as likely to get the wizard killed when his own hat suddenly grows a trillion time as heavy as it used to be.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-04-09, 04:23 AM
How about you devise a master plan?
Like be a bard, have cohorts spread a rumour about how the wizard eats babies for breakfast, gain massive public support, openly(and with a huge PR-campaign) embark on a journey to kill the evil monster, run up to the guy swords a-swingin', get violently murdered, become a martyr, unleash an angry lynch mob.
which, in turn, will get violently murdered by the wizard who just wants his peaceful ultimate arcane power.
then gods will have to intervene and strip the wizard of his magical abilities.
you won't be there to celebrate, but the job will be done.

Talic
2009-04-09, 04:29 AM
Here's the easiest way.

Can a 20 Fullcaster be killed without overoptimization, or other fullcasters?

Yes.

Involves numbers. Force the wizard to engage enough times, over and over, in the same day, and you'll find that a wizard's spells are finite. Especially when he's burning through Time Stops, Foresights, etc.


Alternately, the example character the book gives for hulking hurler, taken out to level 20, should be able to one shot any wizard. Now, as for one shotting dragons? That's a bit harder.

All it takes is a situation where the wizard doesn't know the hurler is there... and chances are, the hurler can one shot a 200-250hp target.

Bear in mind, asking if an character that's not "overoptimized" can take on a wizard that is? Pointless. Only way to do it is run the mage out of spells. But assuming a non-overoptimized wizard (nothing off the list of broken... celerity, shivering touch, etc).

For those that suggest hulking hurler is "overoptimization"... It's being compared versus Incantatrix, which was used in the OP's 1st post.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-09, 04:33 AM
Bard, high diplomacy and maybe bluff...

Say to a Council of Elder Uber Wyrms that the wizard said they stink.

Sit down and UMD to conjure popcorn.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-09, 04:58 AM
Here's the easiest way.

Can a 20 Fullcaster be killed without overoptimization, or other fullcasters?

Yes.

Involves numbers. Force the wizard to engage enough times, over and over, in the same day, and you'll find that a wizard's spells are finite. Especially when he's burning through Time Stops, Foresights, etc.

How? Short of being a likewise fullcaster the mage has the tactical adn strategic mobility advantages not to mention things like Superior invisibility, Ghostform, Shapechange and what have you that let him just ignore most of the things you can send against him.

If he's got a tower on the moon that he teleports or planeshifts to and from then no Gather Info check will ever let you know where he lives or what he's like, if you start pinging the Divinations either he'll be so shielded against them that likewise, no good inel received, or he'll detect it in which case you've lost the element of surprise and opened yourself up to scry'n'die.

Once you pin him down to a tactical location (somehow or other, best bet being a fullcaster unfortunately, or at least burning through so much cash with UMD you might as well have been) then you've got to deal with him Dimdooring and teleporting around the place riding a flying horse with a 240' move rate...... while invisible..... and intangible..... :smallannoyed:

So how do you propose, short of pulling bizarre End-of-the-World stuff, to tie him down to these waves of encounters? And how many do you think will be needed to drain him enough to give anyone a chance at fighting him? And how are we keeping his teleporting, flying, incorporeal, shapeshifting ass around when he's starting to run low?

Also, at this level almost every Wizard going is always under a Shapechange effect. Rod of Extend + pumped CL + control of when they fight and when they don't means this is always on and it gives access to plenty of attacks that don't run out, change into a shadesteel Golem or a dragon or a twelve headed pyrohydra and you can mow down mooks all day long.

Thrud
2009-04-09, 05:00 AM
Here's the easiest way.

Can a 20 Fullcaster be killed without overoptimization, or other fullcasters?

Yes.

Involves numbers. Force the wizard to engage enough times, over and over, in the same day, and you'll find that a wizard's spells are finite. Especially when he's burning through Time Stops, Foresights, etc.


Yep, easiest way. Send hordes and hordes of grunts. Eventually spells will run out. Of course, then that just brings up the whole 'I escape to my earlier prepared extradimensional hidey hole'(hmm, now if I just had enough active brain cells right now to remember how to make a little trademark symbol. . .). Of course, eventually the caster will have to become so paraniod that they pretty much live in their hidey hole and no longer adventure.

Then caster uses magic to track down person who is making their life miserable and kills them, etc, etc, etc. There is just no way to solve this sort of problem, due to the lack of specifics stated on the original caster. Honestly speaking, in any game I have ever run, players are just not going to have access to every single spell in existence because wizards jealously hoard their knowledge and don't share, especially high level spells. So their knowledge of high level spells is going to be severely limited, and they are not going to have exactly the perfect selection of spells to make them gods, or even necessarily know how to do it themselves since characters are limited but players who read all the rules are effectively omniscient. But in a thought experiment like this the limits that are put onto characters in real campaigns by good DMs do not come into play, so any example one person comes up with, another will be able to come up with the perfect combination of spells to counteract.

Still, I did have fun in a campaign once with a player who played a wizard who thought he was all that, and he was almost brought to the end of his rope by a guy with a couple thousand Kobolds that he armed with loud drums, and any time the wizard tried to sleep, another kobold would show up and start banging away preventing him from relearning his spells.

And yes, I know there are ways around that too, it was just an example.

Brock Samson
2009-04-09, 06:21 AM
How about this?
"Hey! Hey you! Wizard! Hi! Yes, this is your mother whom I have a knife to the throat of inside this anti-magic field. And she will die unless you trade me your life for hers. And believe me, I can pierce any illusion you can create, I can tell what's a clone and what's not. Now, touch that small orb over there, it will simply trap your soul, making it mine to play with, and your mother will go free, unharmed."

So with an uber-bluff role (and what wizard has a high sense motive?) he gives himself up. Sure, there's a lot of tricks he could try to pull, but is he going to risk her life when he now truly believes he can save her life with 100% certainty, whereas if he does anything else there remains the chance that something could go wrong, that maybe there's other casters waiting for him to try time-stopping, who knows? Paranoia...

Alternately, bluff a diplomancer into convincing the wizard to give up magic, then kill him later.

Learnedguy
2009-04-09, 06:41 AM
A sleeping person is helpless, so you probably want someone who could coup-de-grace the wizard while he's sleeping.

Now this of course present another problem, because wizards naturally do not sleep in beds, but in the safe compartments of their unbreakable fortresses.

Thus, you need someone who'll be able to enter those compartments. And who's that? His friends/lovers (depends on the wizard. Being his lover is the sure shot though) of course. So you need someone capable of convincing the wizard that he's a friend, and that he wizard can trust him unquestionably.

Unfortunately, this leads to another problem. Because of all the crazy divinations a wizard can pull, it's impossible to lie to a wizard. Unless you have some way of fooling all his means of detection.

So, what class can persuade a wizard to become his friend while simultaneously by passing the wizard's divinations?

Answer: The Spymaster from the Complete Adventurer Handbook.

Well, that would be my best bet at least. God knows it's impossible to get close to the omniwizard:smallannoyed:

lesser_minion
2009-04-09, 06:45 AM
hmm, now if I just had enough active brain cells right now to remember how to make a little trademark symbol. . .

You can get some pretty weird symbols by just opening up a word processor, using Insert Symbol and then copy-pasting.

On-topic:

I'm not a particular expert on wizard builds, but there are ways to deal with quite a few of the main wizard defences.

A psychic warrior has access to both Personal Mind Blank and Shatter Mind Blank, although I'm not sure how he would survive to use the shatter effect, and there is an ML check involved.

Also, that's an all-splatbook entry, so it might be pretty difficult. It could be the start of a plan, though.

As for the various AMF-effective scams, does the wording specifically say "anti-magic field". With transparency, you might be able to loophole in a null psionics field (full manifester or not, I don't think Wilder is really a problem)

Also, how does Dimension Door work in an antimagic field?

Why do I get the impression that afro is about to write a wizard fix?

Zerg Cookie
2009-04-09, 07:02 AM
An assassin with very high int
Only a natural 20 will save the puny wizard :smallamused:

afroakuma
2009-04-09, 07:11 AM
Remember, sending someone else to do it, employing diplomancers or relying on a hulking hurler's massive damage for a one-hit kill are all against the terms.

That said, I see some good ideas here.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-09, 08:02 AM
Remember, sending someone else to do it, employing diplomancers or relying on a hulking hurler's massive damage for a one-hit kill are all against the terms.

I see... the temptation of a Bard saying "He said you stink. STINK! How he dared?" Was too big.

Apologies.... *bows*

Llama231
2009-04-09, 09:25 AM
Remember, sending someone else to do it, employing diplomancers or relying on a hulking hurler's massive damage for a one-hit kill are all against the terms.

That said, I see some good ideas here.



How about anyone with a maxed out diplomacy?
DC 50 to win.

afroakuma
2009-04-09, 09:57 AM
Again, no. We're looking for straightforward, do-it-yourself kill. No Diplomacy.

Eldariel
2009-04-09, 10:49 AM
Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability + Anti-Magic Field. Shoot wizard. Wizard's abilities shut down moments before arrow lands (the 10' area around the arrow hits before the arrow does), thus thwarting any contingency or other protectives.

Of course, said arcane archer can't actually do anything to HURT the wizard, who can pull the arrow out next turn, so you need a confederate, probably an Ubercharger build to turn the Wizard into a greasy smear before he can pull the arrow out.

Oh, Arcane Archer is actually great - Imbue Arrow is a wonderful ability even if the rest of the class ain't worth a jack. I don't see why you couldn't kill him - just pepper him with a rain of arrows and he should go away. You can have buffs on, after all. However, that again means we're sending a caster after him as you need to be able to cast AMF for this to work out.

But yeah, this breaks the terms of the challenge. Worse yet, in Core-only, AA can't get 9th level spells and 16 BAB - Eldritch Knight requires martial weapon proficiencies, which Arcane Archer does grant, but it requires 6 BAB to enter, too much for a straight Wizard thus necessitying the Fighter/Ranger-dip, costing you a level of casting leaving you with 16 on level 20.


have there ever been anything official on Moment of Prescience? because by the wording on it i dont belive it can be used on initiative.

Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) is a Dexterity-check. Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) can be used on ability checks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-09, 11:08 AM
actualy, if he is using Astral Projection it only becomes easyer to kill him, then all you have to do is to get a Joker bard to keep him occupied while you sneak into his Fortress of Doom and slays him.
(there is actualy a decent adventure in this)
then after he is dead you just have to either soul bind him, or track down any clones he might have growing somewhere.How do you find his Fortress of Doom? At the very least, it's in the center of the moon and your only clue as to it's location is him having to cast Teleport to get there. Probably it's his personal Genesis plane, that is completely immune to all methods of entry by anyone other than him, cannot be scried, where Gate simply doesn't work, and where time moves at 50x normal rate. His Clones have similar levels of protction.
"Hey! Hey you! Wizard! Hi! Yes, this is your mother whom I have a knife to the throat of inside this anti-magic field. And she will die unless you trade me your life for hers. And believe me, I can pierce any illusion you can create, I can tell what's a clone and what's not. Now, touch that small orb over there, it will simply trap your soul, making it mine to play with, and your mother will go free, unharmed."Orb of X to kill you. Once you're dead, Wish(or hire a Cleric) for True Resurection to revive mommy. Next attack?

lesser_minion
2009-04-09, 11:12 AM
Actually, the spell description only allows opposed ability checks, and I think initiative is different enough in this case that it is open to DM interpretation (there may be a reason why it has a different name).

In this case it's up to afroakuma, but I think RAI favours "Moment of Prescience on Initiative checks is Cheese".

Zen Monkey
2009-04-09, 11:35 AM
How about a rogue or fighter or assassin or something similar with a locking garrotte? The classes are core, but I suppose the (nonmagical even) item is from Song and Silence. It's basically a metal equivalent of a modern zip tie. Once in place around the throat, the wearer is going to start dying pretty well unless they can make a good strength check or escape/locks (I forget which) check. Wizards tend to be bad at all of these things, especially when the item gives penalties because you're dying and panic has set in. So, one sneaky attack roll to get the weapon in place, and the wizard is in trouble. Persistent damage, panic, and lack of air tend to make casting difficult. Even if there is a contingent teleport ready, then he's still in the comfort of his own home and still essentially drowning in his own living room.

Sure, it requires one surprise attack. Maybe the attacker hires an obviously weak 'threat' to attack the wizard so that any of the spider-sense type of spells are set off with the fake threat but because the danger is small enough the wizard doesn't flee. Or bluff the wizard into a fake sense of security or friendship before slipping on the zip tie of death. The best answer for this pesky little obscure weapon is to have friends ready to hold you down and help you, which the mighty lone wizard is not said to have.

Xenogears
2009-04-09, 11:37 AM
How bout the spell ummm loves pain i think? From BoVD. Only a 3rd level spell (although a corrupt one....) So even a partial caster or UMD would be fine with using it. So find (or potentially raise someone) who loves the wizard more than anything in the world and cast it a couple of times. The wizard gets no save or SR can be anywhere even other planes and the damage can only be prevented by the wizard actually being in an AMF.

lord_khaine
2009-04-09, 11:39 AM
Actually, the spell description only allows opposed ability checks, and I think initiative is different enough in this case that it is open to DM interpretation (there may be a reason why it has a different name).

yes, this was my thoughts as well, i dont see initiative as a opposed check, eliminating the use of MoP.


How do you find his Fortress of Doom? At the very least, it's in the center of the moon and your only clue as to it's location is him having to cast Teleport to get there. Probably it's his personal Genesis plane, that is completely immune to all methods of entry by anyone other than him, cannot be scried, where Gate simply doesn't work, and where time moves at 50x normal rate. His Clones have similar levels of protction.

well, this was actualy in a reply to the core situation, where he cant hide on his own plane, and even if its on the moon i belive enough Legend lore spells will let you find out where the fortress is hidden.
after that its just a question of sending a good enough ninja in.

even when allowing the Genesis (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineNewSpells.html) spell, then i cant find the place where it blocks all access to the place, or for that matter the place where it says he can accelerate the flow of time inside the plane.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-09, 11:40 AM
How about a rogue or fighter or assassin or something similar with a locking garrotte? The classes are core, but I suppose the (nonmagical even) item is from Song and Silence. It's basically a metal equivalent of a modern zip tie. Once in place around the throat, the wearer is going to start dying pretty well unless they can make a good strength check or escape/locks (I forget which) check. Wizards tend to be bad at all of these things, especially when the item gives penalties because you're dying and panic has set in. So, one sneaky attack roll to get the weapon in place, and the wizard is in trouble. Persistent damage, panic, and lack of air tend to make casting difficult. Even if there is a contingent teleport ready, then he's still in the comfort of his own home and still essentially drowning in his own living room.

Sure, it requires one surprise attack. Maybe the attacker hires an obviously weak 'threat' to attack the wizard so that any of the spider-sense type of spells are set off with the fake threat but because the danger is small enough the wizard doesn't flee. Or bluff the wizard into a fake sense of security or friendship before slipping on the zip tie of death. The best answer for this pesky little obscure weapon is to have friends ready to hold you down and help you, which the mighty lone wizard is not said to have.Ignoring the fact that you still have to get one attack(which is the main problem with facing a Wizard), no, he doesn't have friends. He does, however, have Animated Skeletons, Mindraped slaves, and Planar Bound Demons. One of them can make the check. And even if they can't, you still only killed his Astral Projection.

Edit:
well, this was actualy in a reply to the core situation, where he cant hide on his own plane, and even if its on the moon i belive enough Legend lore spells will let you find out where the fortress is hidden.
after that its just a question of sending a good enough ninja in.Sorry, I was considering SRD core. And yes, a Moon Base is discoverable with enough Divinations, which is why it is the weakest defense.
even when allowing the Genesis spell, then i cant find the place where it blocks all access to the place, or for that matter the place where it says he can accelerate the flow of time inside the plane.You get to set the Planar Traits. Time Flow, what spells work, and you can make it so the plane is cut off to everyone without a proper key. Then by banning Divinations, the key becomes impossible for anyone to figure out.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-09, 11:46 AM
well, this was actualy in a reply to the core situation, where he cant hide on his own plane, and even if its on the moon i belive enough Legend lore spells will let you find out where the fortress is hidden.
after that its just a question of sending a good enough ninja in.


If you had said Rogue, Assassin, or any class besides Ninja, I'd be questioning how they got to the MOON without the aid of another full caster (which are banned for the challenge). Ninja, however, are just That Awesome, so this is valid.:smallcool:

Alternatively, he can use Dracula's teleporter, or just jump.

lesser_minion
2009-04-09, 11:56 AM
I'm pretty sure Astral Dragons (from one of the Dragon magazines) have a nice little countermeasure to "you only killed his astral projection" called Severing Bite.

I don't know of anything else that can sever the silver cord from astral projection, but I think you can see it with See Invisibility. Which makes finding the wizard a lot easier. Just follow the cord (assuming that you can UMD the necessary spells).

Or ask the DM how else you can cut the cord. In theory it's just an incorporeal piece of silver with some extra bit of protective magic around it.

Eldariel
2009-04-09, 12:02 PM
lesser_minion: The Silver Swords of the Githyanki can sever the silver cords of astral travelers. It's in the Planar Handbook, I think.

Fishy
2009-04-09, 12:15 PM
Ah, genesis. The spell says that the plane is produced coterminous with the Ethereal Plane- which means that an ethereal Silver Key could walk there, automatically bypassing all of the guards and wards around the portal.

Again, finding the thing is going to be a pain, and getting past an entire universe filled with paranoia-induced non-automated defenses is going to suck.

lesser_minion
2009-04-09, 12:32 PM
As for Genesis - I beleieve there may be a spell called "Precipitate Complete Breach" that might be able to get around all of those defences attached to a demiplane.

I only know of the spell through it being a cornerstone of Pun-Pun's invincibility plan, but you can probably still UMD it from a scroll.

I think the Prismatic Sphere/Wall of Stone combo may merit a mention as one of the other defences a wizard could be packing. I think the idea is that psions lose to it, although I'm pretty sure that you can use Null Psionics Field with impunity even against non-AMF-suppressible spells (assuming transparency)

lord_khaine
2009-04-09, 12:58 PM
You get to set the Planar Traits. Time Flow, what spells work, and you can make it so the plane is cut off to everyone without a proper key. Then by banning Divinations, the key becomes impossible for anyone to figure out.

well, the spell description i linked in my last post only mentions being able to control the environment of the demiplane, and does not mention planar traits in any way.


Alternatively, he can use Dracula's teleporter, or just jump.

well, the main plan was to use a scroll of greater teleport, if that fails he could get his Hulking hurler friend to throw him :smallsmile: