Limiting Wizards

[Eldan]

So, I've been thinking about spellcasters a lot lately, about how they are just a little too versatile, and how they can be limited. So, I came up with this:

Living Energy - A Guide to Wizards

Spell - such a simple word for such a complex thing. What is it wizards do? They take small pieces of planar energy, tear them out of the fabric of reality, and store them in their heads, to be shaped into spells. But it is not easy... a spellcaster soon realizes that this energy resists him. It wants to break free of the shackles that bind them to the wizards mind, they don't want to be forced into a specific form. Like water flowing down a mountain back into the sea, they long to return to the underlying energy of the planes from which they were taken.
A wizard has to be alert at all times... if they slip, if they lose control, the spells they have bound break free. If they go to sleep, nightmares haunt them. For a spellcaster, every hour, every minute is a battle against the forces he has called.
Is it easy? No. But the rewards... ah, they are greater than all you can imagine. The mage reshapes reality to his will. Mind and matter dance at his feet and kingdoms tremble at his wrath. He is a hero and a nightmare, all the forces of the planes bound to a single mind.
And so I ask you: will your mind be one of them?

-Sirion Kar, Archmage of the Eternal Order, to a gathering of potential apprentices

Spellbooks

Spellbooks are heavy tomes, holding on their pages long and complicated inscriptions for every spell the wizard knows, detailing how they are to be prepared and cast.
At level one, a spellbook holds all 0th levels spells, except those from the wizards forbidden schools, and three first level spells, plus one per point of intelligence modifier the wizard has. These three spells need to be from the wizards chosen school, while the bonus spells from high intelligence can be from any school that is not forbidden to the wizard.
Every time he gains a new level, the wizard can inscribe two more spells of any level he can cast into his spell book, one of which has to be from his chosen school.
The wizard can add more spells from scrolls to his spellbook, as detailed in the players handbook/SRD.


Schools:

Every wizard, upon first studying magic, has to choose one school as his prepared school and two schools as his forbidden schools. The wizard can under no circumstances cast spells from his forbidden schools, not even from scrolls, wands or similar items.
Wizards do not get additional school spells per day, but they gain a +2 bonus on spellcraft checks to learn or identify spells from their chosen school. Also, spells of their chosen school count as one level lower for the concentration checks needed to prepare, maintain and cast them.

((I also have made a few changes to schools at my game table: all healing and resurrection spells are necromancy, and all spells that directly deal energy damage, such as the orbs, are evocation, not conjuration.))


Preparing and casting spells:

Wizards can cast a number of spells per day, as detailed in the table in the player's handbook/SRD. To regain new spell slots, he has to rest for at least eight hours. However, there is a further limiation on their spells:

To prepare a spell, a wizard first needs at least minutes of quiet meditation. If, during this time, he is disturbed in any way, such as a loud noise, violent movement of his surroundings or an attack, or tries to engage in any task that requires him to move or to concentrate on anything except casting spells, the meditation fails.
After meditating, he can start preparing spells, a process that takes one minute per level of the spell to be prepared. He can prepare any number of spells in this way after meditating, but for every spell after the first, or if he already has spells memorized from an earlier meditation, he needs to make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10+the new spells level + the combined levels of all spells he has already prepared. If he fails this check, the spell is not memorized, but instead the spell slot counts as used up.
During any situation that is especially stressful to the wizard, such as a combat, he needs to make a concentration check every turn, or lose a randomly chosen spell of the lowest level he has prepared. The slot used to prepare that spell is wasted.
Whnever a wizard goes to sleep or falls unconcious while still having spells prepared, all these spells are lost and upon waking up, the wizard is fatigued.

To cast a spell, a wizard first needs to have that spell prepared. Then, he needs to make a concentration check equal to 10+the total number of spells he has currently prepared, including the one ot be cast. If he fails this check, the spell fails, but still counts as prepared, not using up a slot in the process.
If the wizard rolls a natural 1 on the concentration check, however, the spell is lost instead of being cast. The spell slot used to prepare it is wasted and the wizard takes one point of charisma damage per level of the spell, which can not be prevented in any way, such as items, spells or being of a creature type that is immune to ability damage.


So, thoughts?

[Nomad Pangolin]

By entry.

-Schools: So you are saying, in effect, that all "wizards" must be specialists. Do diviners still get to pick only one opposed school?

-Spellbooks: It's consistent with the idea of "no mages."

-Spell preparation and casting: Awesome if you want absolutely nobody to roll a wizard, ever.

So a first level wizard must have his secondary stat in Con - likely a 14; this supplies a +11 Concentration check (supplying a non-core +2/+2 that includes conc, and skill focus,) just fine for handling the one or two spell levels.

At fifth level, the check is +15... so the last spell has a 25% chance of failed preparation, as fifth level has 10 base spell levels.

At level 7, the check is +17, but we have 20 base spell levels. The last spell prepared has a DC 30 in this scheme - you might not lose potential, but chances are you will lose some.

At level 11, the check is +21 (maybe with item bonuses,) and there are 52 spell levels --- the success chance minimises at 31 levels, with a loss of nearly half of the wizard's default potential.

At level 15, the check is +25 (before item bonuses.) The table gives these wizards 100 base spell levels. Thus, your wizards at this level are 1/3 as powerful as they should be.

And finally, at level 20, the check is +30 before item and aging modifiers, and there are 180 spell levels: the mighty reality-shaping mage isn't even a quarter-shadow of the core assumption.

And that's preparing the spells. Casting them is the same temptation of Fate. So is wading into situations where casting would require Concentration checks, for which you impose the requirement of making them every round for the sake of simply holding onto spells.

No one in their right mind would play a wizard - and no one in their wrong mind would either.

[keeganknorr]

By entry.

-Schools: So you are saying, in effect, that all "wizards" must be specialists. Do diviners still get to pick only one opposed school?

-Spellbooks: It's consistent with the idea of "no mages."

-Spell preparation and casting: Awesome if you want absolutely nobody to roll a wizard, ever.

So a first level wizard must have his secondary stat in Con - likely a 14; this supplies a +11 Concentration check (supplying a non-core +2/+2 that includes conc, and skill focus,) just fine for handling the one or two spell levels.

At fifth level, the check is +15... so the last spell has a 25% chance of failed preparation, as fifth level has 10 base spell levels.

At level 7, the check is +17, but we have 20 base spell levels. The last spell prepared has a DC 30 in this scheme - you might not lose potential, but chances are you will lose some.

At level 11, the check is +21 (maybe with item bonuses,) and there are 52 spell levels --- the success chance minimises at 31 levels, with a loss of nearly half of the wizard's default potential.

At level 15, the check is +25 (before item bonuses.) The table gives these wizards 100 base spell levels. Thus, your wizards at this level are 1/3 as powerful as they should be.

And finally, at level 20, the check is +30 before item and aging modifiers, and there are 180 spell levels: the mighty reality-shaping mage isn't even a quarter-shadow of the core assumption.

And that's preparing the spells. Casting them is the same temptation of Fate. So is wading into situations where casting would require Concentration checks, for which you impose the requirement of making them every round for the sake of simply holding onto spells.

No one in their right mind would play a wizard - and no one in their wrong mind would either.

you entirely missed the point of this thread. And a wizard at 1/4 strength is going to be stronger then a core vanilla fighter at level 20.

[Eldan]

Basically, it's not something I'm sure I'll ever include, just an idea I've been tossing around. But the idea is just about what you described: I don't want wizards to run around with a head full of spells, blasting around left and right. Instead, they should prepare a necessary handful of spells at high levels and then memorize others when they are necessary. If done carefully, they'll still be able to hold their one against fighters without too much difficutly.
Also, you have to consider that school spells are easier to cast (if only a little), meaning that wizards will focus on one school more.

Also, a feat (the name "Spell mastery" would be useful, but that's already taken)

Favored Spell

Requirements: Wizard

When taking this feat, choose a single spell of your chosen school. When preparing and casting spells, this spell does not count against spell levels already prepared, and casting and memorizing this spell takes no concentration checks.

[RandomFellow]

you entirely missed the point of this thread. And a wizard at 1/4 strength is going to be stronger then a core vanilla fighter at level 20.

Yes but that doesn't mean alot of players would want to play someone with very little combat endurance.

@OP

Personally, if you feel you need to nerf casters that much...I'd suggest playing E6 or E8. Casters / non-casters are better balanced at low levels in D&D.

[Eldan]

As I said, just an idea I had. It's probably too hard on casters, as you all said, so should be made simpler.

[Kylarra]

So under this system, are sorcerers royally screwed or do they become the new wizards?

What about the divines?

[Nomad Pangolin]

you entirely missed the point of this thread. And a wizard at 1/4 strength is going to be stronger then a core vanilla fighter at level 20.

I missed nothing, unless the point was to be a parody of insane nerfs --- my detect parody checks are kinda low.

The fact remains that with these systems in place, there is no reason to play a wizard. If a 20th level wizard can prepare and cast only 40 spell levels' worth of spells IF LUCKY, and a sorcerer can know 153 spell levels (and cast at least 270,) then it is clear that the wizard has been nerfed into tapioca pudding.

[Eldan]

Good questions both. Now, implementing this system would, of course, also require rewriting other spellcasters. Except maybe bards.
The way I see it, Sorcerers could probably drop the 15 minute meditation and gain another way to cast a lot of spells, perhaps by choosing an array of spells they can cast automatically.
Clerics I have no idea how to handle. Probably quite similarily to wizards.

[Kylarra]

In that case you should probably just pretend they don't exist. Replace your clerics/druids with paladins/rangers and your casters with your bards.

voila a system that doesn't require a million concentration checks to be rolled every single day.

[Nomad Pangolin]

Good questions both. Now, implementing this system would, of course, also require rewriting other spellcasters. Except maybe bards.
The way I see it, Sorcerers could probably drop the 15 minute meditation and gain another way to cast a lot of spells, perhaps by choosing an array of spells they can cast automatically.
Clerics I have no idea how to handle. Probably quite similarily to wizards.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the game is currently balanced on certain assumptions:
That given a party that consists of four characters (a main warrior, a secondary fighter-type such as a monk, a healer, and a mage) with appropriate wealth for level, an encounter of CR = the party's level should be dangerous enough to use up about 1/4 of the party's daily potential. It could be more or less depending on how effectively an encounter counters you in the situation (such as, say, a red dragon using an illusion to bait you into using Anti-Magic Field and then dropping a Rod of Cancellation onto the bubble.)

Reducing the party's daily potential in an absolute manner - or even reducing the party's per-encounter potential - will require a broader look at encounter-balancing.

And minimising dice rolls is always a boon.

[Eldan]

Right. Idea dropped, then. I'll probably leave in the part where they have to specialize in schools, though.

[Fizban]

An idea that could mesh with your "only so many spells in your head" concept:

Standard day is four encounters. Optimized wizards are often portrayed as defeating (or, "making their main contribution to") a fight with a single top level spell. As such, a wizard should have only enough high level spells to do that. Limiting a wizard to his top 2, 3, or even 4 levels of spells would take away all though extra spell slots that enable auto-win combos and all day buffs while still allowing him to participate in every fight, and with more than the top 2 levels, every round in every fight. Considering that all other classes (at least in core_) have to depend on gear for defense, making the casters do the same wouldn't be that bad (and this would have to apply to all casters. Even if you wanted to keep your original idea, applying it only to wizards would just mean that people would play sorcerers and clerics/druids). If nothing else it could help with people that are indecisive about what to prepare, cutting down on low level spells that are either useless and interchangeable or way more useful than they should be.

[MeklorIlavator]

Of course, the flip side is that now casters really can't afford to help any deadweight in the party, as they effectively have to prepare the best stuff that they can in order to remain useful.

[But Not Tonight]

I think the concentration check for each encounter is a bit much, and maybe the check for casting, but I like the basic preparation idea, and the fact that you achieved specialisation without nerfing the other schools, but just by boosting the easyness of the main school.

One question though:
Say it has been a hard day, and my wizard has used up all his spells prepared, but still has spell slots unused, does that mean he can rest for a half-hour to prepare a few low level spells that might help get the party out of the dungeon (expeditious retreat, maybe a sleep or a knock) without suffering the huge DC caused by the previously-prepared-but-now-used spells?

[BlueWizard]

Boo limiting wizards.


-BlueWizard picketing the thread...-

{in jest}

[boomwolf]

Limiting wizards need a better solution then that.
Actually, we need something ALL caster will be limited on.

Natural spell fail chance equal to 5%*spell level will be simple, and give all casters trouble depending only on spellcasting to get everything done.

[TheGrimace]

I absolutely ADORE the idea for this thread, and feel said that the idea was "dropped" instead of revised. The goal is for a Wizard to keep his per day viability, but reduce his per encounter viability, basically taking away from the "Wizard dominates this encounter, then casts rope trick" schtick.

I was then inspired by Fisban's writing



Standard day is four encounters. Optimized wizards are often portrayed as defeating (or, "making their main contribution to") a fight with a single top level spell. As such, a wizard should have only enough high level spells to do that. Limiting a wizard to his top 2, 3, or even 4 levels of spells would take away all though extra spell slots that enable auto-win combos and all day buffs while still allowing him to participate in every fight, and with more than the top 2 levels, every round in every fight. If nothing else it could help with people that are indecisive about what to prepare, cutting down on low level spells that are either useless and interchangeable or way more useful than they should be.

So what if a Wizard can only have prepared a number of spell levels equal to his class level. He can still prepare the same number in a day, just not at one time.

Or (this seems Crusaderesque, but I have never owned tome of battle, so yo no se)

You prepare all your spells, but at the start of a battle you only have access to X spell levels (maybe your class level again). Each round you gain access to one more floating level, and when you have as many floating levels as a spell you want to cast, you can cast it using those levels even if it isn't in your original selection.

[BlueWizard]

The Wizard Council is groaning.

[Eldan]

Well, then, a few more ideas:

What about, as a basic limiter to wizards, making them choose schools and then limiting them only in spells that are not part of their school? Something like the mentioned spell failure, reduced caster level, some kind of check or something?

Another idea would be perhaps doing something similar to the original proposal, but only for the strongest two spell levels, and less restricting? Like, a wizard 20 prepares spells of levels 1-7 normally, but is restricted on spells of levels 8 and 9?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

One thing my group has tried before is making wizards have 4 prohibited schools. They get various benefits in their other schools as they level (like at-will energy blasts or minor ongoing defenses or the like), and they have fewer spells per day (around 3/4 the standard allotment), adding a bit of continuous power while cutting down their burst power by a good margin.

[Nomad Pangolin]

A couple of campaigns that I played in had a different approach to limiting mages (in second): ethos restrictions. Using fluff to balance mechanics is bad as a general policy, but fine for specific campaigns.

Basically, these campaigns had the notion that most mages belonged to religious orders, who channelled the power of the ethereal plane through faith in the gods just as clerics channel sacred power - and developed magic in accordance with their patron gods' ethoi.

For example, worshippers of Turi, god of war, favoured lightning, summoning, and battlefield support magic; whereas mages of Hechtert, god of the sea, preferred spells of water and wind.

Mages that developed their ability outside of this framework were called "hedge mages," invariably evil, contractually bound to demons, and many of their spells required bloody rituals to cast. Naturally, they tended toward using summoning, enchantment, and necromancy.

---

For limiting clerics... unfortunately, third edition removed an extremely powerful tool for customising the cleric class, and replaced it with domains. Each spell belonged to one or more spheres of influence that could be granted with major (up to maximum 7th level) and minor (only up to 3rd level) access.

By choosing which spheres a Power could grant - and by adding or changing granted powers and base mechanical aspects - the DM could build suitable and unique priest-classes. Indeed, the druid's spell list was built this way. (In 1e, there were actual druid spells as in 3e.)

If you wanted to go this way, it'd take a bit of work to put every cleric and druid spell into the domains, but then using major (L9,) intermediate (L6) and minor (L3) access, you could use that to customise and limit priesthoods. Only recommended for a long-term campaign. :smallsmile:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

For limiting clerics... unfortunately, third edition removed an extremely powerful tool for customising the cleric class, and replaced it with domains. Each spell belonged to one or more spheres of influence that could be granted with major (up to maximum 7th level) and minor (only up to 3rd level) access.

By choosing which spheres a Power could grant - and by adding or changing granted powers and base mechanical aspects - the DM could build suitable and unique priest-classes. Indeed, the druid's spell list was built this way. (In 1e, there were actual druid spells as in 3e.)

If you wanted to go this way, it'd take a bit of work to put every cleric and druid spell into the domains, but then using major (L9,) intermediate (L6) and minor (L3) access, you could use that to customise and limit priesthoods. Only recommended for a long-term campaign. :smallsmile:

A friend of mine and I are reworking 3e (like everyone else, I know, I know) to try to bring back some of the 1e/2e flavor and feel. One part of that is bringing back spheres for clerics, so we're going to classify all of the 3e cleric spells, as well as some upconverted ones from 1e/2e, into spheres (or die trying). If we ever finish, I'll post them up for people to use.

[Yakk]

Regardless of anything else... the above has too many rolls.

A proposed simpler version:
A Wizard has an Arcane Capacity equal to their Concentration skill modifier plus their Intelligence score plus their Wizard level.

A Wizard may have prepared at any one time a number of spell levels equal to their Arcane Capacity. Spells whose duration is ongoing count towards this limit until dismissed.

A Wizard may cast a spell directly from their spellbook or other arcane mnemonic. Doing so extends the casting time to by one full round per spell level (so a level 1 standard action spell takes one full round, plus a standard action), and requires you have sufficient spare Arcane Capacity.

Preparing a spell from your spellbook takes 10 minutes per spell level, minus your Arcane Capacity (min 1 minute).

The number of spells per day a Wizard may cast is still limited by the standard chart.

So a level 1 grey elf with 14 con and 20 int and 4 concentration skill: 4+2+5+1 = capacity 12.

A level 20 grey elf wizard with 25 con and 31 int and 23 concentration skill: 7+10+23+20 = capacity 60.

Not e that the above rule set just turns wizards into gadgeteers -- scrolls etc become the way the wizard has a full set of options, rather than having a huge set of spells ready to cast. Some changes to stuff like scrolls is probably a good idea (ie, casting from a scroll consumes arcane capacity?)

Also note that items of +concentration skill become quite powerful.

It does reduce the amount of 'state' a given wizard has.

It also extends reasonably well to a system for divine classes.