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View Full Version : Which spells do you choose for Beguiler's Advanced Learning?



Eeezee
2009-04-10, 05:19 PM
You get to choose any arcane spell from the wizard/sorcerer list, but it it must be of the enchantment/illusion school and must not exceed the highest-level spell that you already know. What this means is you can pick any enchantment/illusion spell as follows:

level 3 - up to 1st level
level 7 - up to 3rd level
level 11 - up to 5th level
level 15 - up to 7th level
level 19 - up to 9th level

Here is the Beguiler spell list:

0 Level: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message,
open/close, read magic.
1st Level: charm person, color spray, comprehend languages,
detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage
armor, obscuring mist, rouse*, silent image, sleep, undetectable
alignment, whelm*.
2nd Level: blinding color surge*, blur, daze monster, detect
thoughts, fog cloud, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisibility,
knock, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, see invisibility,
silence, spider climb, stay the hand*, touch of idiocy, vertigo*,
whelming burst*.
3rd Level: arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, crown of
veils*, deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, glibness, halt*,
haste, hesitate*, hold person, inevitable defeat*, invisibility sphere,
legion of sentinels*, major image, nondetection, slow, suggestion,
vertigo field*, zone of silence.
4th Level: charm monster, confusion, crushing despair,
freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image*,
locate creature, mass whelm*, phantom battle*, rainbow pattern,
solid fog.
5th Level: break enchantment, dominate person, feeblemind,
friend to foe*, hold monster, incite riot*, mind fog, Rary’s telepathic
bond, seeming, sending, swift etherealness*.
6th Level: greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, mislead,
overwhelm*, repulsion, shadow walk, true seeing, veil.
7th Level: ethereal jaunt, greater arcane sight, mass hold person,
mass invisibility, phase door, power word blind, project image,
spell turning.
8th Level: demand, discern location, mind blank, moment of
prescience, power word stun, scintillating pattern, screen.
9th Level: dominate monster, etherealness, foresight, mass hold
monster, power word kill, time stop.

Given that you already have a vast number of enchantment/illusion spells, what would you pick? Here are my choices, I'm lazy so I'm just working with the SRD



level 3 - The only choices here that are not already in your spells known are Magic Aura or Ventriloquism. Lame, but I'd go with Ventriloquism.

level 7 - Heroism? Maybe Rage? Everything is still already on your spell list!

level 11 - Probably Illusory Wall or maybe Phantasmal Killer

level 15 - Shadow Conjuration Greater, no question

level 19 - Probably Greater Shadow Evocation, to be honest. Shades is the other choice, but not worth a 9th level spell slot. I'd rather cast Time Stop/Foresight all day, maybe even Dominate Monster.

Now you have a Beguiler who can cast almost any conjuration/evocation spell at 60% real and still gets all of the Beguiler spells.

Gnorman
2009-04-10, 05:33 PM
Standard choices, but still effective:

Level 3: Distract Assailant for Surprise Casting goodness, or Power Word: Pain if your DM allows you to take a spell that can singlehandedly break lower levels.

Level 7 (or 8 with the requisite Mindbender dip): Shadow Conjuration.

Level 11 (or 12): Shadow evocation's a decent choice if for nothing other than Defenestrating Sphere. Woo. But I like Freezing Glance a lot, too.

Level 15/16: Maddening Whispers is usually an "I win" button, much like the Enchanter's handbook says. But you can't go wrong with Greater Shadow Conjuration, either.

Level 19: Honestly? Could be anything. You already have Time Stop and Dominate Monster. I like Programmed Amnesia for the INCREDIBLE utility of the spell, limited only by your creativity. But if Mindrape is allowed (and no sane DM should allow it), Mindrape is even more fun. Also evil. But fun.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-10, 10:23 PM
You take a 1-level dip in Mindbender at 6th, delaying all your ALs by one level meaning you have a new level of spells for them. Then? Shadow Conjuration.:smallamused:

BenTheJester
2009-04-10, 10:28 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0

Saph
2009-04-10, 10:34 PM
Level 3: Not many good choices here. Ventriloquism or Magic Aura if you like playing tricks. Don't, don't, don't take Power Word: Pain. If you do the DM will read the spell description, laugh maniacally, and from now on every low-level character you play will be killed by a 1st-level kobold sorcerer.

Level 7: Ray of Dizziness from the Spell Compendium is probably the most effective, but a bit on the overpowered side. Heroism is a safer choice, and will make you very popular with your party members.

Level 11: The game probably won't get this far, so I don't bother worrying about it. :)

- Saph

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-11, 03:33 AM
Level 7: Ray of Dizziness from the Spell Compendium is probably the most effective, but a bit on the overpowered side. Heroism is a safer choice, and will make you very popular with your party members.

Level 11: The game probably won't get this far, so I don't bother worrying about it.

You know, you aren't the sole arbiter of D&D. You could actually give advice based on the conditions people are in instead of the ones you want. Or just admit you don't have suggestions.

Zincorium
2009-04-11, 03:51 AM
You know, you aren't the sole arbiter of D&D. You could actually give advice based on the conditions people are in instead of the ones you want. Or just admit you don't have suggestions.

And we could all stand to do a little less hair-trigger overreacting.

As for your bonus 5th level, I'd say Retributive Image from complete mage. 'I disbelieve that! OW!'.

Saph
2009-04-11, 03:59 AM
You know, you aren't the sole arbiter of D&D. You could actually give advice based on the conditions people are in instead of the ones you want. Or just admit you don't have suggestions.

Um . . . The title of the thread is "Which spells do you choose for Beguiler's Advanced Learning?" He's asking for what other people do, and I don't have suggestions for level 11+ because I find most games don't go that far (so I don't pay high-level stuff so much attention). If you find the opposite, there's nothing stopping you from making some suggestions of your own.

- Saph

KIDS
2009-04-11, 04:39 AM
When observed core only, Beguiler's advanced learning indeed looks like it's pointless since you have everything already. Its purpose is to let Beguilers grab spells from new sources as they are released, but limit it to only a few spells to avoid Clerics or Wizards whose 1st level spell list now consists of 29236 spells due each book granting them more and more.

Therefore, Spell Compendium and such is your best bet. You shouldn't have trouble approving just a few individual spells either.
The suggestions here are all good, I'd only add Superior Invisibility to lvl 19.

Chronos
2009-04-11, 11:45 AM
When observed core only, Beguiler's advanced learning indeed looks like it's pointless since you have everything already.With the notable exception of the shadow spells.

Flickerdart
2009-04-11, 11:53 AM
You can also Eclectic Learning, which, I believe, opens up all spells but at a +1 to spell level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-11, 11:59 AM
With the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, you can spend two of your highest level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) than you could otherwise cast. Since a Beguiler automatically knows all the spells on their list of every level they're able to cast, this gives you the entire next level of spells known. This increases the level of your Advanced Learning spells by one across the board, and with the Mindbender dip you can get up to a 5th level spell at Beguiler 7, a 7th level spell at Beguiler 11, and a 9th level spell at Beguiler 15 and 19. Plus the feat adds quite a bit of versatility in how you can spend your spells/day, and you can take it at level 1 and start out able to cast 2nd level spells.

Here are my choices, assuming Versatile Spellcaster and Mindbender:
Beguiler 3: Ray of Stupidity
Beguiler 7: Shadow Form
Beguiler 11: Greater Shadow Conjuration
Beguiler 15: Superior Invisibility
Beguiler 19: Greater Shadow Evocation or maybe a Power Word spell

Morty
2009-04-11, 12:16 PM
For my Goblin Beguiler, I chose Serene Visage on 3rd level and I'm unsure as to what to take next - since it's a PbP campaign, I have a lot of time to think. It might not have been quite an optimal choice though, even if it does pump by Bluff check into the stratosphere.

Gnorman
2009-04-12, 04:45 PM
For my Goblin Beguiler, I chose Serene Visage on 3rd level and I'm unsure as to what to take next - since it's a PbP campaign, I have a lot of time to think. It might not have been quite an optimal choice though, even if it does pump by Bluff check into the stratosphere.

Basic rule of the beguiler: if it makes any sort of progress towards allowing you to trick the gods themselves, it's optimal. This + Glibness = significant progress.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 07:19 PM
It's just a shame that Voice of the Dragon is a transmutation.

monty
2009-04-12, 11:16 PM
It's just a shame that Voice of the Dragon is a transmutation.

Eclectic Learning?

Tedesche
2010-06-21, 06:56 PM
With the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, you can spend two of your highest level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) than you could otherwise cast. Since a Beguiler automatically knows all the spells on their list of every level they're able to cast, this gives you the entire next level of spells known.

I believe you're misinterpreting the ruling you linked to. From my reading of it, it's basically saying that you can use the feat in conjunction with a metamagic feat to cast a spell from a spell level to which you already have access at one level higher than your highest spell level. Hence, if the highest spell level you have access to is 3rd, the Versatile Spellcaster feat would allow you to cast a silenced 3rd-level spell (making it a 4th-level spell) by sacrificing an additional 3rd-level spell slot. However, it would NOT give a beguiler access to all of his 4th-level spells for the purposes of casting them with 3rd-level spell slots or for choosing other spells via Advanced Learning. If you don't have access to 4th-level spells, you don't know those spells; thus, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't apply to them. The exception the rule is outlining is based on the fact that you do know all your 3rd-level spells, and can thus sacrifice two of those slots to fabricate a 4th-level slot (which you do not actually have) to apply a +1 level metamagic effect to one of them.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-21, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure about the fluff text for Beguiler (never played one), but I do know that the fluff text for WarMage very clearly states that a level 1 WarMage knows all his spells... even up to level 9 spells. He just lacks the skill and experience required to cast them.

PId6
2010-06-21, 07:12 PM
I believe you're misinterpreting the ruling you linked to. From my reading of it, it's basically saying that you can use the feat in conjunction with a metamagic feat to cast a spell from a spell level to which you already have access at one level higher than your highest spell level. Hence, if the highest spell level you have access to is 3rd, the Versatile Spellcaster feat would allow you to cast a silenced 3rd-level spell (making it a 4th-level spell) by sacrificing an additional 3rd-level spell slot. However, it would NOT give a beguiler access to all of his 4th-level spells for the purposes of casting them with 3rd-level spell slots or for choosing other spells via Advanced Learning. If you don't have access to 4th-level spells, you don't know those spells; thus, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't apply to them. The exception the rule is outlining is based on the fact that you do know all your 3rd-level spells, and can thus sacrifice two of those slots to fabricate a 4th-level slot (which you do not actually have) to apply a +1 level metamagic effect to one of them.
This is ambiguous:


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.
What does "gain access to a new level of spells" mean? Does that mean able to cast spells of that level? Then you can never learn any new beguiler spells without Heighten or something similar, since you need to learn the spells before you can cast spells of that level. Does it mean that you learn them as long as you are able to cast them? Then Versatile Spellcaster teaches you the next level of spells. Does it mean that you learn them only when you have spell slots of that level? Possible, but there isn't much support by RAW for that interpretation.

Either way, Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell unambiguously allows you to learn higher level spells via Advanced Learning, since a Color Spray Heightened to 2nd level really is a 2nd level spell. If you throw Sanctum into the mix, that adds an even higher level of spells into it.

Salbazier
2010-06-21, 07:15 PM
Most DM probably would not allow it though, at least (if I ever got a chance to DM) I would not.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 07:26 PM
{Scrubbed}

PId6
2010-06-21, 07:29 PM
{Scrubbed}