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Godskook
2009-04-10, 09:09 PM
Okay, I'm building a Mystic Theurge for a game, and I'm reading through the rules, and I really need help with this: Why is it that a Mystic Theurge is explicitly worse than its parent classes at epic levels?

An epic cleric gains bonus feats every 3rd level, and so does the epic wizard.

That means, if I have all three classes at epic(wiz20/clr20/Mystic10), I can take 3 levels of cleric and 3 levels of wizard, gaining *all* the bonuses of 6 levels of mystic theurge, *and* 3 levels of familiar increase, 3 levels of improved HD(clerics get d8s instead of d4s), and finally, an extra bonus feat. What was WotC puffing when that decision was made?

On a related note, could someone explain to me the epic rules concerning epic multiclass characters with pre-epic levels in their classes. The SRD is silent on this exact issue, at least concerning spells per day. For instance, a fighter 20, who decides to multiclass into wizard surely gets spell per day progression as a normal 1st level wizard(otherwise, whats the point?) On related point, lets say I have a clr 5/wiz 5/mystic 10. If I gained 6 levels of wizard from that starting point, do I gain 1 bonus feat or 2?(A level 5 wizard advancing to level 11 gains only 1 bonus feat, while an epic single class wizard always gains 2 bonus feat over that distance).

TheLogman
2009-04-10, 09:11 PM
The power in most spellcasting classes comes not in the bonus feats, which answers the first part. Yes, feats are very strong, even more strong in epic levels, but the true power lies in Caster Level (Which is lower for the Mystic Theurge, meaning their spells are weaker), and higher spell slots (Which are also lower for the Mystic Theurge, meaning other spellcasters get more powerful spells more often.)

As for Multiclassing in epic levels, I can't help you there.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-10, 09:22 PM
Because they hate Theurges. That's why Mystic Theurge is worse pre-epic too. Of course, it's really terrible in Epic, as you noticed. But don't worry about it. 99.999% of the time, you don't even want to get into Epic, because the Epic rules are made of fail. The .001% is when you have someone who's been playing forever, is a certified genius, and has gone through and thoroughly houseruled every section of the epic rules until they have practically no resemblance.

Godskook
2009-04-10, 09:39 PM
Because they hate Theurges. That's why Mystic Theurge is worse pre-epic too.

The theurge may be worse for the munchkin out there, but it is alright pre-epic. You sacrifice high-level slots for more low-level spells. If the DM likes pushing players to their limit with larger enemy parties, a theurge will outlast a single-class caster. Hence, its a trade-off. Also, a theurge that reaches epic levels gets 3 times the epic spells per day than a single-class arcane caster and 50% more than a single-class divine caster is capable of getting, meaning a theurge starts getting more powerful at epic levels, as long as he stays away from epic-theurge levels.

(Which raises another interesting question: Why is Epic Spellcasting worded so poorly that any divine caster can qualify under both the druid and cleric requisites, simultaneously? I understand the cumulative part, but they should've worded it so that it differentiated between natural divine spells and religous divine spells)

Godskook
2009-04-11, 02:19 PM
*CURE THREAD*

Ok, I admit I was ranting a bit, but I was also asking some serious questions too. I really do want to know what the rules are for epic multi-class characters with non-epic levels in certain classes(Ex: Does a wiz5/ftr15 gain a wizard bonus feat every 5 or 3 levels over the next 15 wizard levels she takes? More importantly, does she gain access to 9th level spells at wiz17/ftr15?).

Eldariel
2009-04-11, 03:14 PM
Actually, Mystic Theurge rocks on epic. Just not the epic progression. But see, provided you can find a bridge class (such as Arcane Hierophant) to finish off with both classes at 9th level spells, your first epic feat is obviously Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting) (as it is for every serious epic character).

Now, if you read the prerequisites, it requires Knowledges & the ability to cast 9th level divine/arcane spells. Each of the core casters can only fill one of those requirements by 21. However, Mystic Theurge has all knowledges in class (thanks to Wizard) and arcane and divine casting, qualifying for all three qualifications on 21. In other words, you get thrice the epic spells compared to everyone else!

EDIT: Wow, overlooked that this had been stated before.

Chronos
2009-04-11, 03:15 PM
(Which raises another interesting question: Why is Epic Spellcasting worded so poorly that any divine caster can qualify under both the druid and cleric requisites, simultaneously? I understand the cumulative part, but they should've worded it so that it differentiated between natural divine spells and religous divine spells)Well, neither of the core divine classes has both Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Nature as class skills, so there's at least some difficulty in qualifying for both. Of course, a Mystic Theurge (or a Cloistered Cleric or a Archivist, or several others) gets all knowledge skills as class skills, so they can double-up on the divine easily.

As for epic class levels and bonus feats, the way that makes most sense is that you continue in the normal, non-epic version of the class until you have a total of 20 levels in it (or whatever the maximum is, for a prestige class), and after that you can take the epic version of that class (or multiclass to something else). The epic version of the class does not advance most class features, but as compensation, gives you bonus feats (in addition to the 1/3 levels everyone gets). In any event, though, once you hit character level 20, all classes get the same attack bonus progression (and don't gain any more iterative attacks) and save progression, no matter what the class normally gives.

Douglas
2009-04-11, 03:25 PM
Spellcasting progression and bonus feats (and most class features in general) care only about your class level, not your character level. A Wizard 5/Fighter 15 who takes 15 more levels of Wizard will, at level 35, be casting as a level 20 Wizard and will get 3 bonus feats over those 15 levels, all of which must be metamagic, item creation, or Spell Mastery. They may be spent on epic metamagic or item creation feats that the wizard qualifies for, but any feats not in those categories are off limits for these bonus feats even if they are on the Wizard epic bonus feat list. That list is only for those bonus feats gained from having more than 20 levels in the Wizard class.

A Wizard 5/full casting PrCs 15 who goes back to taking Wizard levels in epic will continue to advance in caster level, but his spell progression has already maxed out. His bonus feat progression will have the same speed and limits as the Wizard/Fighter above. It is usually a much better idea to keep going in one of the PrCs, even if you've dipped so much you don't have 10 levels in any one class, because you will reach the epic progression and start getting epic bonus feats much sooner. Just for a very simple example, a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 who advances in Wizard will have to go through 10 levels before even starting the Wizard epic progression. If he advances Loremaster instead, he'll be starting that class's epic progression immediately.

Kobold-Bard
2009-04-11, 04:24 PM
Well, neither of the core divine classes has both Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Nature as class skills

Cleric with the Animal or Plant Domain does.

monty
2009-04-11, 04:28 PM
Cleric with the Animal or Plant Domain does.

Or Knowledge.

Chronos
2009-04-11, 05:07 PM
Yeah, I'd somehow forgotten that you could take the Knowledge domain without being cloistered. Still, that was probably the reasoning behind the epic spell requirements, even if it doesn't actually work out that way.

Godskook
2009-04-11, 06:38 PM
Arcane Hierophant

Where is that?


However, Mystic Theurge has all knowledges in class (thanks to Wizard)

Um what? Mystic Theurge doesn't get K(Nature) in the SRD, and I don't see anything saying it keeps class skills of the entry classes. Is that rule explained elsewhere?

(The DM of the game I'm joining seems to be saying that a skill is only counts as a class skill for the class levels you have that have it as a class skill. I.e., a clr3/wiz3 can only have 6 ranks in heal before it is considered cross-class)


and don't gain any more iterative attacks

This, to me, sounds of suck. So a fighter 20 who starts leveling as a wizard has a higher BAB(and thus, more attacks) than a wizard 20 who takes levels as a fighter?

---------------------------

Thanks douglas, I think you covered my more serious questions completely.


It is usually a much better idea to keep going in one of the PrCs, even if you've dipped so much you don't have 10 levels in any one class, because you will reach the epic progression and start getting epic bonus feats much sooner.

With the glaring exception of Mystic Theurge, which gains epic features so slowly that taking more levels in it after 10 is stupid by almost any measure. The feat progression is slower than a wizard's non-epic feat progression, and the caster level progression becomes staggered, making it always worse than going back to the originals. I mean, an epic player with (clr5/wiz5/theurge10) taking pure cleric levels only sacrifices 2 feats in the short term before getting to epic cleric levels and then being completely better than the theurge, and that only gets worse for the epic theurge if you consider wizard levels or other prestige classes.

Douglas
2009-04-11, 07:26 PM
Where is that?
Races of the Wild. It's designed specifically for Druid on the divine side, though. It's possible to get around that with alternative sources of the "Druid-only" prerequisite (Trackless Step, see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842) for a list), but not without a tradeoff that probably isn't worth it unless you're building specifically for epic.


Um what? Mystic Theurge doesn't get K(Nature) in the SRD, and I don't see anything saying it keeps class skills of the entry classes. Is that rule explained elsewhere?

(The DM of the game I'm joining seems to be saying that a skill is only counts as a class skill for the class levels you have that have it as a class skill. I.e., a clr3/wiz3 can only have 6 ranks in heal before it is considered cross-class)
Once a class skill, always a class skill - for purposes of maximum ranks. How many skill points getting another rank costs depends on what class the skill points come from, but the maximum number of ranks does not. A Mystic Theurge would have to spend 2 skill points for each new rank in Knowledge (Nature) but, assuming a standard Wizard entry, he would be able to spend those 2 skill points at every level, keeping it at the maximum for a class skill and high enough to satisfy Epic Spellcasting's prerequisite at level 21.


This, to me, sounds of suck. So a fighter 20 who starts leveling as a wizard has a higher BAB(and thus, more attacks) than a wizard 20 who takes levels as a fighter?
By RAW yes. I, personally, would either houserule this out completely or let you pick the best 20 levels for your pre-epic bonuses (Fighter would gradually replace Wizard levels for calculating BAB and fort saves), but by RAW a Fighter 20/Wizard 20 has 10 more BAB, 6 higher fort save, and 6 lower will save than an otherwise identical Wizard 20/Fighter 20.


With the glaring exception of Mystic Theurge, which gains epic features so slowly that taking more levels in it after 10 is stupid by almost any measure. The feat progression is slower than a wizard's non-epic feat progression, and the caster level progression becomes staggered, making it always worse than going back to the originals. I mean, an epic player with (clr5/wiz5/theurge10) taking pure cleric levels only sacrifices 2 feats in the short term before getting to epic cleric levels and then being completely better than the theurge, and that only gets worse for the epic theurge if you consider wizard levels or other prestige classes.
Well, yes, it's hard to get more deserving of the term "epic fail" than the epic Mystic Theurge progression. You'd still be better off taking a PrC, though, just not Mystic Theurge. Even with the clr5/wiz5/theurge10, going more cleric takes 15 levels to get to the epic progression while starting a completely new PrC only takes 10. With a more sensible (from an optimization perspective, at least) clr3/wiz3/theurge10/PrC4, you're only 6 levels away from the epic progression of whatever other full casting PrC you chose.

Chronos
2009-04-11, 07:28 PM
Huh, for some reason I remembered Mystic Theurge as having all Knowledges in-class, like the wizard. That kind of stinks that they don't.

Godskook
2009-04-11, 10:10 PM
but not without a tradeoff that probably isn't worth it unless you're building specifically for epic.

Well, I'm mostly stuck with what I got, as far as clr/wiz entry, but I'm building him with epic in mind, in case I can get the DM to take us that far.


Once a class skill, always a class skill - for purposes of maximum ranks. How many skill points getting another rank costs depends on what class the skill points come from, but the maximum number of ranks does not. A Mystic Theurge would have to spend 2 skill points for each new rank in Knowledge (Nature) but, assuming a standard Wizard entry, he would be able to spend those 2 skill points at every level, keeping it at the maximum for a class skill and high enough to satisfy Epic Spellcasting's prerequisite at level 21.

Do you have a link to a ruling on that? I know the DM doesn't see it that way in the game I'm starting in.

If you have that right, dip levels into K(Nature) friendly class would save on CC skill point spending. Just make sure to bring K(Nature) up to speed whenever you drop back to wizard or some such.


Well, yes, it's hard to get more deserving of the term "epic fail" than the epic Mystic Theurge progression. You'd still be better off taking a PrC, though, just not Mystic Theurge. Even with the clr5/wiz5/theurge10, going more cleric takes 15 levels to get to the epic progression while starting a completely new PrC only takes 10. With a more sensible (from an optimization perspective, at least) clr3/wiz3/theurge10/PrC4, you're only 6 levels away from the epic progression of whatever other full casting PrC you chose.

My point was, cleric levels were the absolute worst alternative, and even that costs only 2 delayed feats, and gains d8 hit dice in the progression.

Douglas
2009-04-11, 10:22 PM
Well, I'm mostly stuck with what I got, as far as clr/wiz entry, but I'm building him with epic in mind, in case I can get the DM to take us that far.
If you're a good or chaotic elf or half-elf and have the feat and skill points to spare, 1 level of Wildrunner (Races of the Wild) will let you qualify for Arcane Hierophant, though Wildrunner itself does not advance casting at all. Really, though, I'd just point out to your DM just how ridiculously bad epic Mystic Theurge is and ask if he'll house rule it better. Just be careful to avoid giving the impression of trying to powergame too much.


Do you have a link to a ruling on that? I know the DM doesn't see it that way in the game I'm starting in.

If you have that right, dip levels into K(Nature) friendly class would save on CC skill point spending. Just make sure to bring K(Nature) up to speed whenever you drop back to wizard or some such.
Skills Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm).

In particular, note the final sentence:
"Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3."

And yes, you can neglect a skill for a while and then dump a bunch of skill points into it when you take a level in a class that has it again.

This information is on pages 61 and 62 of the PHB.

ken-do-nim
2009-04-12, 08:06 AM
I see the mystic theurge as a really great NPC BBEG class. It gives you the DM the chance to have a badguy who is a full 5 levels above the pcs, who never runs out of spells, yet doesn't have anything too powerful that would take them out in one blow. Also, it's a nice surprise when the pcs think they are taking on a wizard but he starts throwing out cleric spells. There are also some nice spell combos you can't do otherwise (like when the BBEG casts vampiric touch to get a bunch of temporary hit points, then goes invisible and casts shield other on his pet minotaur).

Godskook
2009-04-12, 04:34 PM
I see the mystic theurge as a really great NPC BBEG class.

Well, I'm not complaining about the theurge. I'm complaining about the epic-progression of the epic-theurge. I'll stop now, I think I've beaten the dead horse enough.