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View Full Version : The Ancient Empire (WaXPs and SoD spoilers)



xyzzy
2009-04-10, 10:23 PM
So, I finally got the rest of the books today (yay!) and spent most of the day going through reading all the bonus material and staring wide-mouthed at the beautiful 430 spread.

And one of the last things I read was Stick Planet Travel Guide to the Southern Lands: Azure City which contained in the Laws section the following quote: "even nobles and the Lord himself is accountable to the law, a tradition established after the fall of the Ancient Empire."

A few searches of the forum and a recollection of everything I could remember from the comic produced no results; I even tried 'D&D "ancient empire"' on Google in case it was some obscure joke... nothing.

My first thought is that the AE has to precede basically the entire story so far; the only explanations for some random publication being the only thing that mentions it are that A)it's a myth that some Xeno Lovegood-like editor decided was a nice thing to believe is true or B)it's a piece of ancient history that no one really cares about any more.

The crazy editor option seems to be eliminated by the attention to accuracy in the rest of the article; the sticky note mentioning that a complete rewrite will be necessary and the editor's note that there's no "secret cabal of divine spellcasters" as a thoroughly researched fact (though one that's clearly false...) suggests that the magazine does put a strong focus on trying to be as accurate and up-to-date as possible.

And if the AE existed, what was its size/boundaries? It seems almost sure that Azure City was once part of it since one of its major legal standards dates back to it. It seems likely that the Hobgoblin City near Azure City wasn't part of the Empire since according to Redcloak's telling of history in SoD "the gods put their new races in the parts of the world that no one else wanted".

The largest city on the map in the travel guide besides Azure City is Blueriver Fort; I suspect this city served as a (the?) major mecca for human/goblin warring; we're told in the Round 4 commentary in WaXPs that the humans and goblins having been going at it for centuries, which means that all this took place well before the start of SoD (103 years ago) and even longer before the discovery of the first rift (65 years ago).

So, can we trust that this Ancient Empire even existed, and if so, what significance does it have on the overall story?

The Wanderer
2009-04-10, 11:20 PM
The mention of the AE might not have any tie in to the main story, it could be a bit of world-building or adding on local flavor with the hint that Azure City was once part of a larger kingdom that fell. (Ala various different regions from Alexander's Empire, or countries, kingdoms, and city state that were part of Rome before it fell, etc).

However, I can think of one possibility for a tie in to the main story: when the Dark One was assassinated, his followers went on a massive revenge spree in response. It could be that the Empire either fell to the horde (with Azure City perhaps having been spared by a more distant location, or perhaps by withstanding a siege where no one thought to use titanium elementals) or was so weakened by battles with the goblinoid horde that it collapsed afterward, with Azure city being one of the few areas that prospered in the aftermath.

David Argall
2009-04-10, 11:23 PM
The Ancient Empire existed, but just about all other facts are open to future discovery.

Presumably this was a large nation centered on Azure City that existed for quite some time, but given we see a fleet of refugees starting a city which may well cause itself New Azure City, and that a name like Ancient Empire is unlikely to be used while it was an empire, even these basic facts are speculation. It likely makes little difference for our purposes.

factotum
2009-04-11, 01:25 AM
Well, we don't actually know what starting point the years in OotS world use. We know it's 1185 at the moment, but is that the number of years since World #2 was created, or the number of years since this Ancient Empire fell, or what?

lothos
2009-04-18, 08:15 PM
Well, we don't actually know what starting point the years in OotS world use. We know it's 1185 at the moment, but is that the number of years since World #2 was created, or the number of years since this Ancient Empire fell, or what?

If you read this thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936) it says that rich has confirmed that the comic started in 1183. The thread also says we can assume that the world 2.0 was created in year 0. Though I haven't seen anywhere in the thread that says Rich has confirmed this, it does seem pretty likely to be the case.

Very good observation on the Ancient Empire reference..... while it might just be a bit of flavour, I have observed that many "incidental" things in the comic later turn out to be very significant. I really like that subtle foreshadowing that Rich often uses. He has often mentioned his admiration for the TV series "Babylon 5", which made considerable and in my opinion rather excellent use of foreshadowing.

I didn't spot that, so thanks for highlighting it ! It wouldn't surprise me if the Ancient Empire is mentioned again.... but if it isn't, I won't loose sleep over it :-)

factotum
2009-04-19, 06:17 AM
If you read this thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936) it says that rich has confirmed that the comic started in 1183.

How does that contradict what I said? The graph of Belkar's evil in #489 clearly shows that it was well into 1184 when Roy died, and it's been a goodly number of months since then--therefore I have no problem assuming it's now 1185 in the strip.

David Argall
2009-04-19, 03:56 PM
That would be early 1185 by the Northern Calendar. By the Southern Calendar, Roy died in January, and it is now October-December 1184.

lothos
2009-04-19, 07:02 PM
How does that contradict what I said? The graph of Belkar's evil in #489 clearly shows that it was well into 1184 when Roy died, and it's been a goodly number of months since then--therefore I have no problem assuming it's now 1185 in the strip.

I didn't mean to imply that it contradicted what you said. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Though it wasn't the main point of my posting, I was actually meaning my post to support your assertion that it's currently 1185.

The main thing about my post was to suggest that there is strong evidence that the world 2.0 was created in year zero.. though to the best of my knowledge Rich hasn't explicitly confirmed this. I was citing the other thread because it is consistent with your assertion that the current year is 1185 and because it assumes that year zero is when World 2.0 was created.

There are a whole lot of other things that concur with the year being around 1185.