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Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 12:57 AM
I was invited to play in a 3.5 campaign coming up relatively soon. I am really excited about it. The group seems to be really fun and their world is very rich and interesting. I have one problem though, I've played about 8 minutes of 3.5 DnD.

I think I have decided on my build, and the rough outline for my character, but I don't know best how to pull it off. I want very much to play a Mystic Theurge, and like the Archivist (from what I can tell) or Cloistered Cleric for the divine side. Probably Wizard for the arcane half. I also like the fluff on the Dweomerkeeper, and would like to use that somewhere in there.

I was told that we are using a spell point system, instead of Vancian spell slots. I'm not sure how that affects this build, but I'm sure it's relevant.

In short, I need to know what to do to make this build work, level by level (feats, required skill point allotments, and spell suggestions would be much appreciated). Oh, and I want to stick with Human. No Ilumians or Grey Elves or anything like that.

Please let me know what book or supplement any class/feat/spell/whatever is from. I'm not sure what sources I will have available, but I am told that they are well stocked with books.

Thanks!

Edit: This is the stat array I was told we are using: 17, 15, 15, 13, 13, 11.

streakster
2009-04-11, 01:11 AM
Okay...just to start off, Mystic Theurge will be ...weaker, I suppose is the word. Not telling you not to play it, just making sure you know that, and are prepared for it.

Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860220) a guide to the class, that should help.

Keld Denar
2009-04-11, 01:18 AM
Yea...trust the community. MT is...weak. Stick with straight wizard or straight cleric (or better, Archivist!!!!!) and you'll be much much much better off. Trust us, you'll enjoy it better! More powerful spells means you'll get resisted much less and have lots more options! Its a good thing!

Talic
2009-04-11, 01:38 AM
There is something to be said for flexibility, however.

As a defensive buff-based character, theurge hits its sweet spot. When DC's are less important than having a lot of options at all time, and casting all sorts of spells in and out of combat is desired, Theurge is a decent, if not optimal, option.

Just remember, you've got no chance of casting all your spells in combat. None. So involve out of combat spells, or spells that normally wouldn't be precast, that you can.

For example, in high danger areas, have a 1 round/level spell up on someone at all times, rather than waiting until combat starts.

Starscream
2009-04-11, 01:39 AM
Yeah, outside a Gestalt campaign a Mystic Theurge is almost always weaker than a straight Wizard or Cleric 20.

Inside a Gestalt campaign a Mystic Theurge is cheating. :smallwink:

No reason not to play it though. Saying a class is weaker than Wizard is like saying water is wet, the sun is hot, and the Cubs aren't going all the way this year. It's a fun class, and you can keep casting all day. Just don't expect to be able to cast the world shattering spells you might otherwise get.

Not sure how the Spell Points variant will affect the class. Probably won't make much of a difference.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 01:44 AM
I understand that MT is weaker than straight Wiz or Cleric, but when I proposed the idea of playing a Mystic Theurge to the guy who invited me, his comment was "you'll probably be one of the more powerful characters in the group then". So uber-power is not really what I am going for here, since apparently I will already be above average. Although, I do appreciate the concerns for my fun and satisfaction. Honestly. I think my lack of skill and familiarity with the system will balance out the above-average power level of this character. I will be a 5th or 6th man in the party, so I wanted to go for versatility rather than power anyway.

More to the point: From what I can tell Human (with Precocious Apprentice) Archivist 3/Wiz 1/MT 10/Dweomerkeeper 6 is a legal and legitimate build. I very much like how that looks. Or rather feels, thematically. Is there anything special I should be considering for feats in this build?

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-11, 01:50 AM
Featwise, it depends on what you want to focus on. What are the other party members and are you planning on specializing as a Wizard? Also, you may want to check with your DM that using Precocious Apprentice is okay here (that can be seen as cheesy by a lot of people). What do Dweomerkeepers do?

streakster
2009-04-11, 02:01 AM
Huh. Odd. Mystic Theurge is normally a real power hit. Must be a low-power campaign, then. Good to know! Now we don't have to worry so much about finding you a way to stay alive.

Hmm. Let's see.

You're squishy. Really so. Very much so. Under no circumstances should you be within melee range of anything, ever, at all.

You've got spells to burn, so do so. A spell left at the end of the day is wasted. On the flip side, your save DC's are lower, so try to use no save spells, when possible.

You're entering as an Archivist - if you can, you might want to ask your DM about scrolls. You need them to learn more prayers - so are they rare? Common? How hard will tracking down a specific scroll be? Essentially, are there magic shops to buy them at, or not?

Keep your spell and prayerbooks guarded. Losing them is very bad. Depending on how paranoid you are, there are varying levels of protection.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-11, 02:05 AM
streakster, when you said about save DCs being lower, are you refering to the fact that the spells he casts will be a few levels behind what a pure Archivist or Wizard would be able to case? (I just wanted to check due to not being able to think of anything else that would affect the save DCs).

streakster
2009-04-11, 02:07 AM
streakster, when you said about save DCs being lower, are you refering to the fact that the spells he casts will be a few levels behind what a pure Archivist or Wizard would be able to case? (I just wanted to check due to not being able to think of anything else that would affect the save DCs).

Oui, oui!

Although now I think about it, if it's a lowpower campaign, that might not be so bad. Still wouldn't build around them, but hey.

Good catch there.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 02:11 AM
I am wanting to mostly focus (like Talic suggested) on party buffs and defensive spells. A little control here and there, but mostly I want to play a support character.

I will check on Precocious Apprentice. If that doesn't fly, then Archivist3/Wiz3/MT10/Dk4 will be the build. Not a huge change, either way for me.

Dweomerkeeper, from the fluff, "blurs the line" between arcane and divine magic, which is precisely what I want this character to be about. It can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). As far as the crunch goes, it gives "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" per level. At odd levels, it allows the player to choose a spell (either arcane or divine) and spontaneously convert equal or higher level spells into that spell. You gain Arcane Sight at-will at 2nd level. At 4th, and even levels after, the player can treat one spell prepared per day as if it were cast as a supernatural ability. At 10th level (which I won't get to), all metamagic costs are reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1 (+0 metamagics remain +0).

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-11, 02:13 AM
Thanks for clarifying. I don't think the DCs would be low enough for that to really be a problem. I'm guessing Mauril wants to play as a human for the bonus feat, but if he things save DCs may be a problem and the DM allows homebrew races, my Fenneckin race would help a bit due to their Int bonus: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-104140.html .

That link seems to lead to a PrC called the Nightcloak rather then the one you mentioned. (I can't open the file either. :smallfrown:)

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 02:23 AM
Yeah, Nightcloak is the one listed below, but the Dweomerkeeper is the first PrC in the .pdf file, if you can open it.

Talic
2009-04-11, 04:56 AM
Two things affect the Save DC's. One is that your most powerful spells are lower level. The other is that you're a bit more dependent normally on two attributes. Archivist will negate one of those, not much can be done about the other.

Look for spells that have in and out of combat applications. Haste, for example. The combat boosts it gives are amazing. However, the +30 foot move can come in handy anytime a jump is needed... And it applies to more than one person, IIRC.

Control is another great aspect. Obscuring mist, Solid fog. Great non-save spells that affect your enemy's visibility (and movement, potentially). Even Web is good, as it sucks even if you pass your save.

Cure spells could supplement a lack of cleric in the party, or there are traditional cleric buff spells. Protection from X is a must. Very few low level spells can trump a 9th level Dominate Monster spell. That's one. Bless isn't bad, as it affects multiple people.

Chronos
2009-04-11, 11:43 AM
Huh. Odd. Mystic Theurge is normally a real power hit. Must be a low-power campaign, then. Good to know!Or it could be that the DM is a bit confused about the relative power level of various options. Maybe the other spellcaster in the party isn't getting all of those great cleric spells, too, and is avoiding all those high-powered damage spells, to boot (I mean, seriously, giving up the option of doing 10d6 damage? Who's crazy enough to do something underpowered like that?). In the real world, where not everyone hangs out on forums like this one, it's quite possible for a DM to think that a blaster is more powerful than a Batman, and that a Mystic Theurge is more powerful than either.

Other advice:
There's a feat somewhere (I think it's from a Dragon magazine) called Alternate Source Spell, that requires that you be able to cast arcane and divine spells, and lets you treat arcane spells as divine, and vice-versa. Like Precocious Apprentice, this could be used for early entry to Mystic Theurge, but unlike Precocious Apprentice, continues to be useful even after you've qualified.

You can make a pretty good theurge-style character with just straight Archivist 20, depending on what spell sources your DM will allow you access to. Almost all of the good spells appear on some domain or another, or on the druid or adept spell lists, so it's possible to get most "wizard" spells as divine. Also note that you don't need to find the scrolls, you can make them: Find a cooperative adept somewhere, and the two of you can collaborate on making a magic item, so long as all of the prerequisites are met by someone or another. The adept contributes the ability to cast, say, Web, and you contribute the Scribe Spell feat and maybe the XP, and you end up with a divine scroll of Web you can transcribe into your prayer book.

If you do go Dweomerkeeper, tread carefully: The class has the potential to be terribly, horribly broken. Do not choose any spell that has expensive material or XP components to turn into a supernatural ability: That kind of power may look nice, but it will very quickly cease to be any fun for anyone in the group, you included.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 06:45 PM
I'm sure by the time we get to level 14 or 16, I'll have a better feel for the group's power and will know better which spells I can or cannot (Su).

I will check on Alternate Source Spell, to see if the DM will allow it. The DM is rather experienced, from what I can tell, having played 3.5 since it came out (converting from 2e). Most of the players though are primarily concerned with roleplay and secondarily concerned with power.

Anything else a must have for a Theurge?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-11, 07:36 PM
Another option to consider as an end-cap rather than Dewomerkeeper (which is an awesome PrC, by the way) is Geomancer (NOT Geometer) from Complete Divine. It allows you to further blur the lines between arcane and divine, allows you to treat spells of a certain level or lower (starts at 1st level spells at level 2 of the class, able to do 9th level spells at 10th level of class) as either arcane or divine, whichever is more beneficial to you.

Now here's where we bring out the cheeze...

Divine Metamagic is a feat which specifically applies to a metamagic feat, and allows you to blow turn attempts in order to not have to make it a higher level spell slot. However, Errata says only works in Divine spells.

How would you like to DMM Chain arcane buffs on the party?

I believe there was a PrC somewhere or another which let you cast Personal spells at range... this can combo nicely with DMM Chain. How about the whole party getting Mirror Image?

Another handy one is War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. It's only a 5 level PrC, which fits in nicely with your level scheme. It lets you prepare a weave for the party and cast any spell with a range of Touch or greater into the Weave, allowing it to affect your whole party. Downside to this is it is capped by War Weaver level -1, so maximum of 4th level spells. However, that is Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Protection from Evil, and one other buff of choice (like, say, Resist Energy if you know you are facing Blastomancy, or +4 Con for general all-purpose more hit points) as a move action. Then you take, as a standard action, Haste. Your party is now Uber.

Godskook
2009-04-11, 08:13 PM
Practiced spellcaster is another good feat. Gives +4 caster level, capped at ECL, except when you multiclass into prestige classes that give caster progression. At that point, the feat applies before the prestige class bonus does, meaning that a wiz3/clr3/MTheurge2(ECL = 8) that takes the feat twice(cleric and wizard) casts spells at 9th caster level.

Assassin89
2009-04-11, 08:50 PM
I think I can help you set up stats.

Archivist/Wizard
Str 11 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 13 Cha 13

Cloistered Cleric/Wizard
Str 11 Dex 13 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 15 Cha 13

Due to not being involved in melee combat, strength is a safe dump stat. Constitution is the second highest stat in order to offset the low hit die for the wizard. Intelligence and wisdom are given the higher stats due to being the main stat for spell casting.

Keld Denar
2009-04-11, 10:18 PM
Ok...ultimate Mystic Theurge buff machine!

Wizard3/Archivist1/MT2/WarWeaver5/SpellguardofSilverymoon4/MT+5

One of the many early entry methods to get into MT early. Ok, what do we get? 18th level wizard casting, 10th level Archivist casting, and catch this....


Spellguard (Su): At 4th level, the spellguard of Silverymoon may cast any personal range defensive arcane spell on another character with a touch. For this purpose, a defensive spell is one that improves AC, increases a saving throw modifier, or grants additional hit points (either by healing wounds or by bestowing temporary hit points).

Wow...that opens things up a lot. Now you can put Divine Power through the Weave. Awesome! But wait, it gets better. Factor in Races of the Wild. There is a feat, Magic of the Land, that when in a natural setting, heals the target of a buff for 2 hp/spell level as long as you can make a Knowledge Nature check (DC 15+spell level). Now every spell you cast grants additional hit points, and thus qualifies to be cast at touch range, which qualifies it for War Weaver.

Check this out! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)

Yea, you can learn that spell as an Archivist. As long as you have that spell active, you are considered in the wilderness. Now, as long as you make it back to a forest every week or so, you'll always take a little bit of the forest with you every where you go, allowing you to pull this off wherever you go.

So....what can we do with this? Daily buff, you can put up Heart of Air, Heart of Earth, and Heart of Water on all your friends! You can't get Heart of Fire though, sadly. What else....Divine Power. Yea, you too can give all your friends full BAB and CL temp hp and +6 Str. What else? Wraith Strike! Let the lulz continue! Alter Self? Done and done! Mirror Image? Pass it around! Divine Favor? Not personal anymore! All that good stuff!

Seriously, the potential is unlimited! Almost all the best buffs are personal only. Not anymore. If one of your friends is an Incantrix, you can get them all Persisted too!

Citation (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016735)

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-11, 10:46 PM
Sadly, Keld, while your build seems awesome, setting specific books are out. Were we playing in FR and not a homebrew world, I would definitely look into that.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 12:59 AM
Quoth Godskook:
Practiced spellcaster is another good feat. Gives +4 caster level, capped at ECL, except when you multiclass into prestige classes that give caster progression.Where are you getting this exception? The feat doesn't say anything like that.

Keld Denar, doesn't Spellguard of Silverymoon have some sort of requirement of having to participate in the militia once per week? That could be hard to work into an adventuring schedule.

Godskook
2009-04-12, 01:30 AM
Quoth Godskook:Where are you getting this exception? The feat doesn't say anything like that.

Here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061120a

Unless I'm reading that horribly wrong.

tyckspoon
2009-04-12, 02:00 AM
Here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061120a

Unless I'm reading that horribly wrong.

I think that works with Ultimate Magus in particular because the Arcane Spellpower feature is specifically a bonus to your caster level, and as such you apply the general principle of ordering your own bonuses however you want. "+1 level of existing class", on the other hand, is usually treated as if you had never left the original class for purposes of spellcasting (which is why such classes can't themselves be advanced by +1 level classes, among a few other technicalities.) A wizard 3/Cleric 3/Theurge 2 wouldn't have CLs of 3+2 and 3+2 that could be re-ordered by inserting Practiced Spellcaster; it'd be CL5 and CL5, with the same normal limit for Practiced Spellcaster.

That said, I can see how your interpretation can be constructed, but I wouldn't try it in anything other than theory; the FAQ and Sage Advice should only be used as reference if the intent of the rules is in doubt, and applying Practiced Spellcaster in this fashion seems to be against the intent of both Practiced Spellcaster and "+1 existing spellcasting" classes.

Myou
2009-04-12, 03:53 AM
Quoth Godskook:Where are you getting this exception? The feat doesn't say anything like that.

Keld Denar, doesn't Spellguard of Silverymoon have some sort of requirement of having to participate in the militia once per week? That could be hard to work into an adventuring schedule.
Unless you retire from active service.

Lamech
2009-04-12, 11:36 AM
I think that works with Ultimate Magus in particular because the Arcane Spellpower feature is specifically a bonus to your caster level, and as such you apply the general principle of ordering your own bonuses however you want. "+1 level of existing class", on the other hand, is usually treated as if you had never left the original class for purposes of spellcasting (which is why such classes can't themselves be advanced by +1 level classes, among a few other technicalities.) A wizard 3/Cleric 3/Theurge 2 wouldn't have CLs of 3+2 and 3+2 that could be re-ordered by inserting Practiced Spellcaster; it'd be CL5 and CL5, with the same normal limit for Practiced Spellcaster.

That said, I can see how your interpretation can be constructed, but I wouldn't try it in anything other than theory; the FAQ and Sage Advice should only be used as reference if the intent of the rules is in doubt, and applying Practiced Spellcaster in this fashion seems to be against the intent of both Practiced Spellcaster and "+1 existing spellcasting" classes.
Umm... the normal limit of practiced spellcaster is HD. So a wiz3/cleric3/MT2 would have eight HD, and the practiced spellcaster would raise it to eight. Are you saying it would be 5 + practiced spellcaster, or are you saying practiced spellcaster can't raise it past five?:smallconfused:

Godskook
2009-04-12, 04:45 PM
I'm also basing it on this:

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Practiced_Spellcaster

Which is where I originally got the idea from. Admittedly, I'm not sure what that site is for, exactly, so I'm not sure how relevant it is. Thing is, even the most strict DM ruling would still give +3 caster level on a standard entry.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 07:21 PM
That just says that in that particular computer game, there's a bug that makes it operate that way. Humans, however, have different programming than computers, and we can change our programming on the fly when we find a bug.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-12, 09:29 PM
Heh. Thanks guys for the optimization advice, but I think I am wanting to have a useful and versatile character, not "Teh Uber Castar!!1!".

I don't think I will go for an early entry method, especially one that requires a dubious interpretation of the rules. As I will be mostly playing a support character, buffing my allies and tossing out some Save or Suck control spells.

Aside from Alternate Source Spell (which fits my flavor nicely), what other feats are a must have for an arcane/divine buffer?

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-12, 09:32 PM
Heh. Thanks guys for the optimization advice, but I think I am wanting to have a useful and versatile character, not "Teh Uber Castar!!1!".

The point is that being an early entry Mystic Theurge makes you a useful and versatile caster, instead of a useless, pidgeonholed caster, which is what a non early entry type is.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-12, 09:36 PM
Hrm. Fair point. What is the least legally questionable way of doing that then?

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-12, 09:57 PM
Hrm. Fair point. What is the least legally questionable way of doing that then?

Focused Specialist + Precocious Apprentice is one absolutely legal way.
So is Illumian with Krau Sigil.

But the one that probably fits most types best is Alternative Spell Source.

You could be a Wizard 3/Cleric 1 or a Cleric 3/Wizard 1.

It's definitely not the Uber caster, and it's really balanced. You can still only cast one spell a round in combat, and you cast worse then a Wizard with a Cleric Cohort in both ways.

Lamech
2009-04-12, 10:05 PM
Doesn't the earthen spell trick work? Get heighten spell, earthen sense, and earth spell. (The last two are from races of stone.) A Hieghtened spell counts as a higher level spell for all purposes right? It gets you in at as soon as you have the skills. (Of course you might need to be standing on the ground to not lose the prereq's for the first couple levels.) And if psionics are allowed, consider getting psychic reformation cast on you.

Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.The only quibble is does what does "effective" mean? If one can get it to count for prereq's your in.

P.S. One of these people may have a better method, but I don't see why the hieghtening wouldn't work.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-04-15, 12:52 AM
Alright, so Archivist3/Wizard1 using Alternate Spell Source to gain entry to Mystic Theurge at level 5 seems to be the way I am going to go.

However, I would much appreciate any other advice on feats and items. I really don't know how feats work in this edition (having played only 1e and 4e), so recommendations on which ones to pick up and when would be nice. Also, I do not have Ye Olde Magick Shoppe available, but I am told that WBL will be followed rather closely. I'm pretty sure that there aren't restrictions on which books I can use, but the more common books are more likely to be present around the gaming table for me to look from. I would like help with starting equipment, some low level items I should look out for/ask about, and some higher level items I should keep an eye on for the future.

Again, I would like to reiterate that this a mid-to-low power campaign. I am asking for advice because this is my first 3.5 campaign and I really have no idea what I am doing. Thanks again!

Keld Denar
2009-04-15, 01:22 AM
I'd take Practiced Spellcaster for your Wizard side, at least, since that side is losing 3 levels. Other than that, a bit of metamagic like Extend Spell or eventually Quicken Spell. Maybe something like Improved Toughness for a few extra hp or Improved Init so you can be going quicker to have a bigger impact in combat before your enemies do.

For gear, other than your +int item, your gear is pretty open. Maybe try to aquire a couple Metamagic Rods and possibly some Pearls of Power, a +resistance item, and other misc gear. A real prize would be if you can get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with +int on it. That would be great, as it would allow you to cast more of the low level spells you have so many of per round a couple times a day.