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Bulwer
2009-04-11, 05:00 AM
I'm looking for a class anywhere in 3.5 that uses Constitution as a primary statistic. Homebrew is fine, too. I'm looking for a way to make a Mongrelfolk with decidedly poor stats be competent at something.

Talic
2009-04-11, 05:09 AM
If you go Dragonfire adept, you get a breath weapon. Combine with Dragonborn of Bahamut, and you get another. From there, you qualify for Metabreath feats (Draconomicon, etc). Breath weapons all use Con to determine Save DC, and Dragonborn gives a further boost to Con, above and beyond your mongrelfolk's impressive +4. Yes, a level 1 Dragonborn mongrelfolk with a base con of 18 has a 26 con.

Zincorium
2009-04-11, 05:15 AM
Incarnate, but you're more of a pale imitation of any class, but you can change which one on a daily basis.

Warlock is probably your next best bet, maybe even hellfire warlock. Druid (probably warshaper/master of many forms) and Barbarian should be playable in a relatively relaxed game, but you still need at least a base of other stuff. Warblade, with a focus on Diamond Mind, could also work at later levels, but you're going to have to play your maneuvers tight to your chest and ramp up constitution.

X stat to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1143941) lists a few benefits you can glean from high constitution, but it's mostly dips.

Bulwer
2009-04-11, 05:18 AM
My stat spread is a rather impressive 14/13/12/11/11/11. And I think I'd like to stay Mongrelfolk, but I like DFA. Are there any other options for using my Con?

Talic
2009-04-11, 05:30 AM
My stat spread is a rather impressive 14/13/12/11/11/11. And I think I'd like to stay Mongrelfolk, but I like DFA. Are there any other options for using my Con?

You can have dragonborn AND mongrelfolk.

Dragonborn is a template that costs 100gp and a non-evil alignment. It rewrites a few racial abilities, and gives you the option of a breath weapon with a 1d4 round cooldown. That's important, because it lets you qualify for metabreath feats, which require you have a breath weapon with a cooldown measured in rounds.

It does not, however, erase the old race's stat modifiers. It does add an additional +2 Con and a -2 Dex.

Bulwer
2009-04-11, 05:38 AM
No, I'm quite aware of Dragonborn and all of its benefits. I mean that I want to stay a proper Mongrelfolk, and not start off as a Dragonborn.

Of course, I may not have that luxury what with my stats, but I'd like to explore my options.

Talic
2009-04-11, 06:03 AM
In that case, there's either the full-blown Half-Dragon, or doing without metabreath. Metabreath, however, substantially increases the power of the breath weapon, at the cost of frequency.

With a 14 base, you'd have an 18 after Mongrelfolk. +4 modifier to breath weapon, for a DC of 14. Ability focus could get you a 16.

With a 14 base, a Dragonfire Mongrelfolk sports a 20, +5 modifier, for a DC of 15. Heighten Breath could take it all the way to a DC 20. Ability focus could take that to DC 22.

So there's a decent power gap there. Not counting the ability to maximize a breath, extend it to shoot crazy far, cause it to linger multiple rounds, or even with feats in other books, cause it to stick to enemies multiple rounds, damaging and entangling them.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-11, 06:50 AM
There's a Shugenja variant somewhere which uses other stats for casting depending on the element they use. (Earth types use Con, water= Wis, fire= Int and wind = Cha). I don't know where that variant can be found but it may help you here.

Harperfan7
2009-04-11, 11:08 AM
Psions in 3.0 used the score that correlated to their power, one of which was constitution. In 3.5, they all use Intelligence, but if your DM is cool with it, just be a psion who uses Con (I don't remember the name of the Con based power).

Chronos
2009-04-11, 11:28 AM
So there's a decent power gap there. Not counting the ability to maximize a breath, extend it to shoot crazy far, cause it to linger multiple rounds, or even with feats in other books, cause it to stick to enemies multiple rounds, damaging and entangling them.Entangling Exhalation is not a metabreath feat, does not increase the recharge time, and does not require a recharge time. You can (and should) use it even without Dragonborn.

Draz74
2009-04-11, 11:46 AM
Yeah ... don't worry about Metabreath or the Dragonborn template, you'll do just fine just as a Mongrelfolk DFA.

If you want more ways to use your CON, one thing you could do is still use Incarnum, via feats. It takes a lot of feats to get a decent amount of Incarnum "dipping," especially if you're not an Incarnum race, but that's ok, DFA is one of the least feat-starved classes in the game.

Graymayre
2009-04-11, 01:12 PM
You can go into that fists of the forests (class or PRC, not sure) thing that gives con to AC.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-11, 01:14 PM
Totemists are CON-dependent too, aren't they?

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-11, 01:19 PM
Fist of the Forest is a PrC from Complete Champion which is a nature-based Monk which also gets a form of Rage which grants claws and a Dex boost (I think). I think all Magic of Incarnum classes focus on Con as well.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-11, 01:29 PM
They all do, but don't do a soulborn. They are largely considered to be crap.

Talic
2009-04-12, 02:14 AM
Yes, I know that entangling exhalation is not metabreath.

Still, metabreath is effective enough that the build DOES benefit from it considerably, considering the short range and low damage of the breath weapons involved. Being able to quicken an entangling exhalation breath while increasing the DC of ending it by +6? For 1 template and 2 feats? I'd say that qualifies as an improvement worthy of consideration.

Is it playable without? Yes. Is it effective? Not particularly.

The DC to escape his entangling exhalation without that is 14. Not very hard at all. Add in that combination, and it's a respectable 20.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-12, 04:00 AM
Totemists are CON-dependent too, aren't they?

They like a decent Str/Dex score though. Theoretically, he can build a Totemist version of the DFA standard builds, but it doesn't start working until 2nd level. Relevant thread. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4158.msg133791#new)

He can do something if he puts the 14 into Str and the 13 into Con, but most of his stat boosters will be going to his Str score if he even thinks about getting into melee combat.

@OP: 14, 13, 12, 11, 11, 11 is just barely above what the PHB says the DM should let you reroll. At the very least, ask if you can use the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). You end up with 2 dump stats instead of 3. You've effectively ended up with a 24 PB build, which is very weak for anything at all.

Why you would go with Mongrelfolk instead of something like Lesser Planetouched races or taking a +1 LA on a melee build is a bit odd. Those stats need boosters, badly.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-12, 04:48 AM
@OP: 14, 13, 12, 11, 11, 11 is just barely above what the PHB says the DM should let you reroll. At the very least, ask if you can use the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). You end up with 2 dump stats instead of 3. You've effectively ended up with a 24 PB build, which is very weak for anything at all.

I'm the DM of said game, and we've already rerolled his stats. He's now got a 16, 16, 14, 13, 12, and a 10. Much better, if I do say so myself. :smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-12, 04:51 AM
I'm the DM of said game, and we've already rerolled his stats. He's now got a 16, 16, 14, 13, 12, and a 10. Much better, if I do say so myself. :smallamused:

Now those are Totemist stats! 16 Str, 16 Con, 14 Int, 13 Dex, and whatever else he feels like.


Makes a very viable Warblade too.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-12, 10:27 PM
It's a little late now, but here's an idea. Crazy as balls though.

1 level in X.
3 levels in Stone Blessed. He can now count as a dwarf, or goliath or gnome for PrC's and items that require a particular race. Also gets most of hte racial bonuses, among them a +2 Con.

Dwarf paragon levels. (If there's a mongrelfolk paragon, you could probably take that before stoneblessed).
At teh end of this, you get full bab, good fort and wis, and a +2 Con.

Deepwarden: Level 2 grants you Stone warden. Con to Ac.

After this, jump to Pious Templar. Which grants you mettle, anything that requires a fort or will save for partial or half effects, if you succeed, you take no damage or effects whatsoever.

Mind you, I mostly just cribbed this off of a half-ogre half orc dwarven defender warhulk I made for fun. (ftr/stoneblessed3/ deepwarden 2/dwf defender1/dwf paragon/Pious templar4/warhulk) Though you only get 4 levels of warhulk before getting epic. And Warhulk had to go last, because he becomes unable to use any skill which requires Int,wis,cha except intimidate.

Baalthazaq
2009-04-12, 11:48 PM
You may, depending on your age, wish to check out the book of erotic fantasy for a couple of con based classes. None of them are completely con based though.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 08:23 AM
Something I've done before with a high CON is this(and it really depends on your groups opinion on the book savages species, as well as the generic classes.

20 CON
Toughness
FEAT: Roll with it(grants 2DR / - every time you take it and stacks with itself.
Two levels of expert gets you 2 feats
Four levels of warrior gets you 3 feats
1 Level of caster gets you another feat
Then dump all remaining levels into warrior for more and more feats.

Dont worry about armor, just get your DR as high as you can.

Expert1 Level 1-Toughness, DR2
Expert2 Level 2-DR4
Warrior1 Level 3-DR6, DR8
Warrior2 Level 4-DR10
Spellcaster1 Level 5-DR12
Warrior3 Level 6-DR14
Warrior4 Level 7-DR16

So on and so forth. If you're allowed flaws then you can easily get another 4DR. With this build you can get 26DR/- by level 10.

You also have a few skills from taking expert as your first class, and a couple 1st level spells to have a (small) bit of fun with.

Because you dont care about armor take a two hander and try to smash smash smash. If you can find a way to get SR, or spell immunity(which makes you immune to healing spells as well(the only place I've seen this is in the 'yuck' WOW D&D book)) you'd be on the path to damage immunity. And when you do take damage? You have a 20 CON, so you probably have plenty of HP.

Like I said, this build depends heavily on your groups opinion of savage species and the generic classes, but it can be fun. My DM allowed me to take spell immunity as a 1 level adjustment(no heals, no buffs, no benefit from magic weapons/items, etc balanced it) I took high ranks in bluff. When someone in the party went to heal me(because I had taken 1 damage from a dinosaur who critically bit me, making my character scream in pain) I rolled spellcraft(because I had high points in it from expert), and yelled out in pain, claiming that she had used the wrong kind of healing, and that I needed the 'other kind'. She wasted more spells on me(negative energy this time), and I said thank you and ran off before she could examine the wound.

The party was convinced I was undead the entire campaign, and I constantly made the cleric waste mana to 'heal' me.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-13, 08:49 AM
I like the Generic classes, but I don't think I'd let a player multiclass like that solely for the extra feats (I tend to think PC class training should take quite a long time, so suddenly leveling in a class you haven't been trained in). Combat Vigour, which needs Combat Focus and 13 Wis, would help if you got hurt when using that sort of build. ( http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Combat_Vigor,PH2 .)

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 10:00 AM
Oh, I agree. I would never allow someone to multiclass so freely(with the generic classes anyway).

It's just that that DM loves game breaking stuff, and I occasionally take advantage. I cant tell you how often he's come to me while I DM and said:

Powergamer: "Hey, can I use X book from X system with our 3.5 campaign"

Me: "Why? That's not an official book, so it probably breaks something"

PG: "No, no no....it doesn't break anything. It just uses this concept which I think is really cool"

Me: "That is ok I guess....what were you going to use it in conjunction with?"

PG: "Oh, this and that and that and this so that I have infinite AC, and 23 attacks per round each doing 234d12 damage".

Me: "No, that is broken"

PG: "NO IT"S NOT"

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 12:33 PM
Con-dependent base classes....

Dragonfire Adept - Brilliant BC with the right feats, some damage-dealing, very Warlock-esque

Totemist - Flexible class with some good damage-dealing combos, can totally change its specialty given 24 hours.

Binder - Flexible class with some good tanking combos, can totally change its specialty given 24 hours.

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 12:43 PM
Something I've done before with a high CON is this(and it really depends on your groups opinion on the book savages species, as well as the generic classes.

20 CON
Toughness
FEAT: Roll with it(grants 2DR / - every time you take it and stacks with itself.
Two levels of expert gets you 2 feats
Four levels of warrior gets you 3 feats
1 Level of caster gets you another feat
Then dump all remaining levels into warrior for more and more feats.

Dont worry about armor, just get your DR as high as you can.

Expert1 Level 1-Toughness, DR2
Expert2 Level 2-DR4
Warrior1 Level 3-DR6, DR8
Warrior2 Level 4-DR10
Spellcaster1 Level 5-DR12
Warrior3 Level 6-DR14
Warrior4 Level 7-DR16

So on and so forth. If you're allowed flaws then you can easily get another 4DR. With this build you can get 26DR/- by level 10.

You also have a few skills from taking expert as your first class, and a couple 1st level spells to have a (small) bit of fun with.

Because you dont care about armor take a two hander and try to smash smash smash. If you can find a way to get SR, or spell immunity(which makes you immune to healing spells as well(the only place I've seen this is in the 'yuck' WOW D&D book)) you'd be on the path to damage immunity. And when you do take damage? You have a 20 CON, so you probably have plenty of HP.

Like I said, this build depends heavily on your groups opinion of savage species and the generic classes, but it can be fun. My DM allowed me to take spell immunity as a 1 level adjustment(no heals, no buffs, no benefit from magic weapons/items, etc balanced it) I took high ranks in bluff. When someone in the party went to heal me(because I had taken 1 damage from a dinosaur who critically bit me, making my character scream in pain) I rolled spellcraft(because I had high points in it from expert), and yelled out in pain, claiming that she had used the wrong kind of healing, and that I needed the 'other kind'. She wasted more spells on me(negative energy this time), and I said thank you and ran off before she could examine the wound.

The party was convinced I was undead the entire campaign, and I constantly made the cleric waste mana to 'heal' me.
Hey now, that's my "Henry the Indestructable" (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-996334) build! Or at least what it evolved into (see "edit2").

Note that if you do it that way, you end up.... less than useful. A way to make it substantially more playable is to go Rogue20, using the Rogue "Special Ability" feat option to grab extra Rolls. You get less than with the Generic classes, but more than most other options, and end up entirely effective. I've actually played this way, and used Poison Dusk Lizardfolk as the base race, with a small dip into Swordsage for Assassin's Stance, and then UMD'd a Minor Schema of Nightstalker's Transformation. Was glorious. :smallcool:

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-13, 01:01 PM
Another CON based feature is Spellfire from Magic of Faerun. It's 3.0 and from Forgotten Realms, but its only worth a feat and can add extra versatility to your character. I made a Spellfire weilding mongrelfolk half-iron golem once, that went warlock and to heal himself with infinite spell levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-13, 01:18 PM
Dragon Shaman from PH2 could be a decent choice, medium armor and shield proficiency with d10 HP and a decent breath weapon. Touch of Vitality won't be great due to your low Cha, but it's not really worth much until level 11+ and by then you can have a +4 cloak. Start out middle-age, go Str 12, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9, at level 4 boost Con, level 8 boost Cha, and everything else into Con after that. Get Shield Specialization (PH2), Shield Ward (PH2), Recover Breath (Draco), Ability Focus: Breath (MM), Double Draconic Aura (DM), and after that probably get Entangling Exhalation (RotD) and/or some metabreath feats (Draco) such as Maximize Breath and Clinging Breath. In the very late game you'll want to wear Mithril Full Plate with +6 Gloves of Dex (or Belt of Magnificense from MHB). Maybe also pick up Combat Reflexes once your Dex is higher and get an animated shield with a reach weapon, which is especially good with Entangling Exhalation.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 01:47 PM
@sonofzeal

Too efficient.

The build I had could hurt things slightly(2d8+6), and aside from that was there to make a ruckus. I used lots of rope in battle to cause mayhem and such, as well as draining the clerics SP on heals(or harms as it were) that did nothing.

Most of the people I played with at that point weren't that good at making characters, and rather than make something ridiculous I tend to just play something as weak as them. This character had staying power, that's for sure. I even took the prestige class 'survivor' from savage species once i hit 20 DR because, well, why not?

Though for an NPC in my current campaign, adding some combat capabilities, and maybe even some fast healing would be nice and mean.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 02:01 PM
Though for an NPC in my current campaign, adding some combat capabilities, and maybe even some fast healing would be nice and mean.Fireball. And then a bit more Fireball. Maybe an Orb of Fire, if we're getting crazy. But really, damage spells ignore DR. That alone is enough to kill him, let alone a SoD.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 02:07 PM
Fireball. And then a bit more Fireball. Maybe an Orb of Fire, if we're getting crazy. But really, damage spells ignore DR. That alone is enough to kill him, let alone a SoD.

(Not that I would actually do this, but my original character that I had been talking about did).

My DM let me take the race from the WoW rpg that made me spell immune. If it can be stopped by SR, it's stopped from working for me.

If it's a conjuration spell then it would hurt him, and that would work well.

Like I said though, I wouldn't do that in my campaign, as I think no sane DM should allow books other than D&D3.5 by wizards. I'd just give him evasion/improved evasion as some of his bonus feats :)

EDITED:
Or I could make him a half-golem and keep the whole spell immunity thing without having to use third party books.

Or if he wasn't spell immune, give him items that grant elemental protections/immunities, as well as evasion/improved evasion. Maybe even some SR....

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 02:16 PM
(Not that I would actually do this, but my original character that I had been talking about did).

My DM let me take the race from the WoW rpg that made me spell immune. If it can be stopped by SR, it's stopped from working for me.

If it's a conjuration spell then it would hurt him, and that would work well.

Like I said though, I wouldn't do that in my campaign, as I think no sane DM should allow books other than D&D3.5 by wizards. I'd just give him evasion/improved evasion as some of his bonus feats :)Hence, Orb of Fire. Or just Reverse Gravity, Flame Arrow, CloudKill, or something. There's a lot of ways to kill things that don't require actually doing anything to them.

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 02:38 PM
@sonofzeal

Too efficient.

The build I had could hurt things slightly(2d8+6), and aside from that was there to make a ruckus. I used lots of rope in battle to cause mayhem and such, as well as draining the clerics SP on heals(or harms as it were) that did nothing.

Most of the people I played with at that point weren't that good at making characters, and rather than make something ridiculous I tend to just play something as weak as them. This character had staying power, that's for sure. I even took the prestige class 'survivor' from savage species once i hit 20 DR because, well, why not?

Though for an NPC in my current campaign, adding some combat capabilities, and maybe even some fast healing would be nice and mean.
Well, the basis of my variant ("High Con Rogue using all spare feats and Special Abilities for Roll With It") isn't particularly optimized or efficient. The Swordsage/Nightstalkers portion is entirely unrelated, and is something that works just fine on pretty much any Rogue (though multiple natural attacks help). I wasn't suggesting you break the game, just that Rogue20 is a more playable vehicle for the "Henry" theme than the Generic classes, at higher levels. But it's amusing either way. :smallsmile:

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 02:55 PM
Hence, Orb of Fire. Or just Reverse Gravity, Flame Arrow, CloudKill, or something. There's a lot of ways to kill things that don't require actually doing anything to them.

Well, first off, I'm not saying the character is completely invincible. You will be able to come up with something that could destroy him.

But, some of those are manageable too.

Reverse gravity for falling damage I assume? Make it a flying creature.
Cloudkill, I'm sure I could find an easy way to find poison immunity for.

I already granted conjurations spells in my previous post(flame arrow, orbs), but those dont do a whole lot of damage, and I'm talking about a character who has potential fast healing here as well, as well as very high HP, so unless this mage is very tricksy(and very knowledgable about the person he's fighting) he'd be able to take out a party mage before he could get taken down, and then the rest of the party would be left hoping for high damage crits for the most part.

Once again, not saying this guy is invulnerable, just that he's very efficient at staying alive.

I've never gone for an especially broken build of this but I'm thinking it would be something close to:

Maybe raptoran for flight, and also half-troll for fast-healing(+2 CR) for base, with half-minotaur(+1 CR) followed by applying half-golem(+3 CR) for spell immunity

Building him up to CR 20 you could probably get him 20 DR / - fast healing / spell immunity, and possibly take exotic weapon proficiency in the minotaur greathammer(I think that's what its called). Theres also a faerun variant that says if you have a weapon made of gold or platinum it's heavier and therefore counts as one size larger(requires a specific exotic weapon proficiency feat to use, but I wouldn't anyway, just cause I hate the faerun books for the most part).

Something like Fighter 2(for toughness and exotic weapon), expert 2(for 4 DR), and 8 warrior(for another 10 DR). And two flaws for 4 more DR, and 6 feats from leveling for another 12DR.

So,
30 DR
Spell Immunity
Extremely high CON(so high HP)
Fast healing from being half-troll
Flight from Raptoran

Now, this thing is pretty much never going to happen, was just pointing out the potential behind the build. I never built in poison immunity, but meh, it's doable.

This would never happen though just because it's too far out there. Just the same way as most OP builds are(batman, punpun, etc.) It would however probably be able to smash a single mage before that mage widdled him down.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 03:22 PM
Wait, CR 20? Scratch all of the Wizard stuff. Barbarian/Ranger. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Lion's Pounce. 30 Str, +5 Flaming Frost Shock Acidic Holy Greatsword(GMW), Boots of Speed. 140 damage, 5 attacks in a round, non-optimized(at all, it emberesses me to post this, it's only slightly better than the ECL 5 one I made recently).

Figure you have 30 Con and d10 HD with 14 associated levels, means 217 HP. If he makes 2 of his 5 attacks on a charge, you die. Through DR, through high Con, you die, no save. The Wizard stuff I was posting was how to get rid of something with regen, Spell Immunity, and DR 20 at ECL 10-15.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 06:09 PM
You bring up good points, and are obviously better at making op characters than me.

However, I've failed to explain, or you've failed to grasp what I was getting at.

If my DM through that thing at me and my part I would get up and leave. If a player tried to play one of those I would laugh at him.

If I was in a level 16 party and had to fight what I created it would be a fun challenge.

If I was allowed to play one, it would be fun, but not unstoppable.

Yours is better, mine is playable.

Maybe you guys actually allow things like that, but not all of our players can build ridiculous things. So we do things like this, because it's still fun, and it's not breaking the rules.

Very nice build though :)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 07:39 PM
But it's not remotely OP or optimized. I built it in under 2 minutes, using 3 feats and a fraction(~1/7th) of a 20th level character's starting gear. A basic damaging Wizard will likely use an Empowered(via rod) Split Orb of Cold and an Empowered(via Rod) Quickened Orb of Cold for 235. Again, this is in no way optimized. It has no metamagic reducers, no max-damage increases. Its simply an application of metamagic to toss as many dice as possible in one round with no real work, and doable at level 15. DR is no sort of defense at that level, and SR just means your Cleric has trouble buffing you, while offenses are simply changed.

Heck, what are your saves? Heightened Glitterdust+Gate/Well of Many Worlds/empty Portable Hole takes care of the trouble with no need for killing.

Talic
2009-04-13, 09:21 PM
Not to mention environmental hazards such as suffocation, non-magical elemental damage, etc.

Heck a fire giant could likely easily pull off a grapple and a dunk in lava. It's in keeping with the tactics and lair descriptions of Fire Giants, too.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 09:34 PM
Does your dm actually make encounters based around fighting you guys when your melee characters can do 700 damage per round? Four of those would be 'a party' and should be able to take on a CR 20.

Isn't the tarrasque CR20?

Doesn't he have 860ish HP? So a party that's supposed to be able to fight CR 20s can take them down in under 1 round?

May not be completely 'optimized', but it's more than you would get by the end of a normal campaign.

Another thing no DM I've ever had do is say "you're level 20, with X amount of loot, buy what you want". We level up to that point winning battles and getting random loot.

Off the top of my head I'm not familiar with a couple of the things you listed, but I'm guessing you know what you're talking about.

In as system where the tarrasque is supposed to be a fun, hard challenge against a party of level 20s, my build would be fun against a party of level 16s, which is what I said I would use mine against.

Prove as often as you want that you can break it/destroy it, but I'm just going to look at what I've 'actually' seen come up in campaigns, both from DM perspective, and as a player.

If I was going to use this against my party I would use it when they were around level 16. If I was going to play it I would play something similar to the build I listed, but would change a couple things(not going to go up against a mage who knows exactly how to take me down), so a different base race, and maybe a different template or two.

My build = basic D&D
Your build = takes down the tarrasque singlehandedly(minus the necessary wish) in 2 rounds = broken

EDITED
And for the record, what you have may not be broken or OP by normal standards. This is the way my group plays, and my intent was to answer the TCs question of 'what's fun to play with a high CON'.

For my players this is a good example. If you guys play more towards the mechanics of having lots of power, then more to you.

My players are as follows:

"Cleric who doesn't heal party, but is impressed when by himself when he does damage"(10-18 per (very rare) hit)
"Dual wielder who never hits, because he tries to do too much"(5-12 when he hits)
"Knight who does decent damage when he hits"(20-30 sometimes)
"Archer who gets 3 attacks per round each doing fair damage"(12-18 per arrow)
and something from the tome of battle that gets high damage. I hate that book.(25-40)

This is at ECL 10 for them.

I can make broken things too. Probably not as well as a lot of people, but I've made strong things before. If I threw something like what you built at my party it would not be fun for them because my party, and in my experience 'most parties', don't operate towards high-power.

My dms have made me retire characters before because they did too much damage.

Chronos
2009-04-13, 09:44 PM
The tarrasque is seriously overrated, due to its lack of anything interesting to do other than survive. If you want a better CR 20 to compare parties against, try a Pit Fiend or a Balor. Or, for that matter, a 20th-level character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 09:55 PM
There's a reason level 20 is considered broken. Like I said, those have nothing applied beyond the bare minimum. I essentially posted a 15th level Wizard with 2 feats, no multiclassing, and something like 20K(10% of WBL) spent. If the game is broken with that, there's a problem.

As to the Terrasque:There's builds that kill it at level 12. A Wizard is immune to it by 5th level if he knows it's coming. It's the weakest CR20 monster out there, and tactics against it come down to "hit it from out of reach".

Waspinator
2009-04-13, 10:25 PM
They really should have the full way with the Godzilla homage and made the Tarrasque able to breath fire. That way, people who can fly wouldn't be essentially immune to it.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 10:34 PM
There's a reason level 20 is considered broken. Like I said, those have nothing applied beyond the bare minimum. I essentially posted a 15th level Wizard with 2 feats, no multiclassing, and something like 20K(10% of WBL) spent. If the game is broken with that, there's a problem.

As to the Terrasque:There's builds that kill it at level 12. A Wizard is immune to it by 5th level if he knows it's coming. It's the weakest CR20 monster out there, and tactics against it come down to "hit it from out of reach".

I very much agree with you on this. Parts of it at least.
The build you listed is legitimate(as far as I know) and is very good. I also think that it's broken, but like you said = that's a flaw in the system, not in the build.

And as I've said I can make broken things, and it's fun to make builds that I'll never use.

But my friends and I play to the intent of the system, not to the capabilites. Builds like the ones you posted would not be allowed because they circumvent the scope of power. We want the tarrasque to be a challenge. We want level 20 to be fun, and not just the wizard doing everything.

I assume you mean the wizard has fly? Grantd, if he knows the tarrasque is coming, and isn't afraid of it throwing something at him he's fine.

Yes, level 20 is a joke. WBL is an interesting concept, and I'm curious: Do you actualy create characters who have full choice of gear according the wealth they're allotted, or do you start at low levels and roll for loot? When we start at higher levels the DM tends to hand out equipment, or at best. roll until we reach the same amount we should have.

For the most part though you've completely missed the point I've been tryign to make though.

If my party of 4 level players can fight a CR20 and have it be the challenge it's supposed to, and yours can fight a CR20 and demolish it in one round, one of us is playing D&D, and the other is doing math and writing the results in a character sheet.

If that's how you play - fine. 140 damage 5 times per round from a melee is not how we play.

Anyone whose good at math, and can read is a person who can optimize, or do lots of damge. There is no thought behind it beyond simple math.

We play for fun. This build is fun. It's a good challenge for the way we play. I thought it might be of interest to the TC.

Break it as many times as you want, kill it in as many ways as you want. My party will nto kill it in one round because they dont know how.

And for people STILL listing ways to kill this thing - I never said he was invincible. This is about the 4th time I've said that. He would be a fun challenge. If I presented him as a boss, and the party dropped him into a fire pit, then yes he would die, and that would be a party using ingenuity, and fun to kill a boss. Not math.

EDITED:
Yes, I understand I was still using tarrasque and that that's a bad example by your guys standards, I was just using it as an example.

And for the record, I'm not trying to win any argument here. I'm trying to explain that me and you are different kinds of players, and we play with differnet kinds of people. My build is legitimate based off the way we play, and yours is probably legitimate based off of the way you play.

But you never did answer any of the questions I asked throughout thi post:
1. Do you play in parties where people all do things like this(the 5 attacks each doin 140 per round)
2. Does your dm allow you guys to build high level characters with free reign of WBL?
3. Do you guys regularly fight against things that do this kind of damage(or better since you have a party), or does your DM use mosnters from the books?

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 10:46 PM
They really should have the full way with the Godzilla homage and made the Tarrasque able to breath fire. That way, people who can fly wouldn't be essentially immune to it.
Breath weapons generally have a fairly limited range, but this could work. Perhaps some Lavos-esque spines that it could shoot?


Typewriter - I entirely support optimizing to match the group you're with. I've played a VoPeace Healer (yes, the really pathetic base class, not just the party role) before, and enjoyed it a lot. On the other hand, I think at least moderate powergaming makes the game more fun, as the party can face more dynamic challenges. If your ECL10 group would struggle against a few Ogre Barbarians, and lacks tactical options in combat, then that limits what the DM can throw at them, and combat becomes... less fun. RP can still be a riot a minute, and in some groups that's more than enough, but I do think there's a happy median where characters are strong enough to be dynamic and fun without being omg-teh-oooberz. Oh and on that note, I love ToB because it makes melee combat way more fun to play ("I swing my sword at him again" vs "burning blade causes fire to spring from my sword as I use flashing sun to make a flurry of attacks! Woooo!").

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 11:05 PM
Breath weapons generally have a fairly limited range, but this could work. Perhaps some Lavos-esque spines that it could shoot?


Typewriter - I entirely support optimizing to match the group you're with. I've played a VoPeace Healer (yes, the really pathetic base class, not just the party role) before, and enjoyed it a lot. On the other hand, I think at least moderate powergaming makes the game more fun, as the party can face more dynamic challenges. If your ECL10 group would struggle against a few Ogre Barbarians, and lacks tactical options in combat, then that limits what the DM can throw at them, and combat becomes... less fun. RP can still be a riot a minute, and in some groups that's more than enough, but I do think there's a happy median where characters are strong enough to be dynamic and fun without being omg-teh-oooberz. Oh and on that note, I love ToB because it makes melee combat way more fun to play ("I swing my sword at him again" vs "burning blade causes fire to spring from my sword as I use flashing sun to make a flurry of attacks! Woooo!").

I'm glad that you get what I mean :)

We have one DM who when he runs things he lets me go all kinds of OP, and he'll do things like give all kinds of templates to the other players if I(or someone else) gets too overpowered.

I would do things like that too, but some of my players are very against anything happening to their characters.

I agree with your statement about balance. I think that for the most part DR 30 on a villain at CR20 isn't powerful enough to be fun for most parties, though for mine it would be. Balancing power with the parties capabilities is rough. I just need to get them there. And I dont care what anybody says: Having high DR, and spell immunity was awesome to play, because no one knew it, and I could claim whatever kind of BS I wanted. "Cast buffs on me, I took damage, cure it with negative energy, etc. etc."

They're not completely ineffective. I sent them against a CR12 party this weekend(when only 4 of them were around) and they got through it with little problem. Would have been a lot better for them if the party cleric had healed them instead of constantly casting cure spells on the undead....

and I dont hate ToB outright, it's just that whenever any player uses it he becomes 10x more efficient than the rest of the party. So he excels, and nobody else tries to do something to improve themselves, except maybe roll up a ToB character for their next toon...

And combat is horribly unfun with this party. This is by far the worst party(powerwise) I've ever DMed, but probably the best RPers I've dealt with. It's an interesting tradeoff.

I've implemented a random encounter spreadsheet in my campaign to supply them with more than just combat. Think I'll make a thread real quick about that to see what people think....

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 11:29 PM
and I dont hate ToB outright, it's just that whenever any player uses it he becomes 10x more efficient than the rest of the party. So he excels, and nobody else tries to do something to improve themselves, except maybe roll up a ToB character for their next toon...

And combat is horribly unfun with this party. This is by far the worst party(powerwise) I've ever DMed, but probably the best RPers I've dealt with. It's an interesting tradeoff.

I've implemented a random encounter spreadsheet in my campaign to supply them with more than just combat. Think I'll make a thread real quick about that to see what people think....
I get what you mean about ToB. To be fair, I think that's because {a} the type of person who'd get the book and learn the system is the type who'd manage to be considerably stronger than these guys even purely inside core, and that {b} ToB is actually pretty "balanced", in that almost any ToB character is going to be just about as strong as any other ToB character, meaning that even a mediocre optimizer can be making top-tier combatants.

If it helps, I find that with newb players like yours, ToB is an excellent tool behind the scenes, by way of Martial Study and Martial Stance. "Oh hey, here's a feat which lets you heal someone when you land a hit, once every five minutes!" "Here's a feat that makes enemies take a -4 if they're adjacent to you and swing at someone else!" "Here's a feat that lets you make a free jump every five minutes!" Stuff like that. Newbies tend to be terrified of books they don't own, and especially of whole combat systems they haven't seen before, but a feat... a feat is something they can wrap their head around, and don't mind adding to their character. And a Martial Study feat can make most melee builds a lot better. It's a good equalizer.

With your group, I'd bring this up and at least discuss the possibility of trading older, non-functional feats for a smattering of ToB, which won't revolutionize combat but might help things along. Dual Wielder gets pointed to Desert Wind and Tiger Claw, Cleric and Knight get their pick from Devoted Spirit and White Raven, or maybe some Stone Dragon. It could even be a plot point, where some divine emissary grants them special power for the tasks ahead. The Archer's doing fine and wouldn't benefit from ToB much, but a homebrew "Ranged Power Attack" feat, or an upgraded bow, might pacify him/her.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 11:42 PM
See that's one of the bad things about it.

The multi-wielder knows how to build characters, but he decides hes going to be 'just like some character from ________ anime' and he makes something useless. He'll look through every book to find exactly what he wants, but it's always completely useless.

The knight can make really good characters but for some reason wanted to be a knights, and is second only to another player in efficiency.

The archer is a good build. He's a centaur with levels of targeteer. Good build so far, most consistent damage by far. Not really familiar with the system, just build whatever people tell him to build(he gets advice from me, the knight, and the ToB).

The ToB character is efficient(especially compared to the rest of the party). That players only problem when creating character is he refuses to 'corrupt' his concepts. If he plays a rogue, its a rogue the entire way. Maybe a PrC. If he's a monk, it's all monk(I know monks suck, but the way we play they can be balanced well with the party).

The cleric though....oh man is that guy new. I think I'll do what you said and point him towards this other book. He has no idea how to play, and no memory at all. I tell him the same things every week. I have no idea why he wanted to be a cleric. He almost never heals, he's inefficient at combat(most of the time). It's really bad.

I'm thinking the next campaign'll be better. I'm going to drop one of the players in favor of another who's very familiar with the system(as long as I can keep him on track, and not breaking any rules-he has a tendancy to 'misread' feats and the like).

Him, the ToB, and the knight will all make decent characters. The archer may be gone by then(leaving the area), the cleric probably'll be dropped. All I'll have to do is get the anime-replicator up to snuff.

Waspinator
2009-04-14, 12:22 AM
More about the Tarrasque: I believe I saw a thread awhile ago that buffed up it by changing it's feats, partially to Tome of Battle ones. Also, the "of Legend" template can give it a breath weapon.

About introducing the Tome of Battle, that's why I like this homebrew:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531
Hand one of those weapons to a player and you can give them a taste of what the ToB is like.
Also, ToB archery is something that I can't believe was left out. Thank Gygax for homebrewers:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707

sonofzeal
2009-04-14, 02:30 AM
The cleric though....oh man is that guy new. I think I'll do what you said and point him towards this other book.
I wouldn't do that exactly. Like I said, chances are it'll either go over his head or he'll decline for other reasons. I've given ToB to several players and it rarely sticks; all my "successes" with newbies are when I take ToB maneuvers out of context.

Alternatively, you could offer him (in plot) the option of becoming an "avatar" (or some more appropriate term) of the god he worships, making it clear that it'll change his character's powers significantly; if he accepts, narrate some fancy ritual, then hand him a new character sheet that's as similar as possible, but with Crusader levels instead of Cleric. If he refuses, well, go with the feats, or just tough it out.

Person_Man
2009-04-14, 09:41 AM
My stat spread is a rather impressive 14/13/12/11/11/11. And I think I'd like to stay Mongrelfolk, but I like DFA. Are there any other options for using my Con?

With those cruddy stats, I suggest you go with Wildshape Ranger (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm). Take Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape or head into the Master of Many Forms PrC (or just stick with medium animals, and enjoy being a dinosaur).

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-14, 09:52 AM
With those cruddy stats, I suggest you go with Wildshape Ranger. Take Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape or head into the Master of Many Forms PrC (or just stick with medium animals, and enjoy being a dinosaur).

Didn't you read my post? He got a reroll, and did much better the second time around.