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View Full Version : [3.5] Mana Spellcasting Variant



Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 06:28 AM
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/359/blueenergy.jpg


Ive been thinking of a Mana system for spellcasters, similar to psionic power points or spell points from unearthed arcana, and another thread was talking about it recently, so it intruged me to toss out this idea ive been juggling for a good while.

In midnight, all spellcasting classes were merged into a single class - the Channeler, which could use arcane, divine, druidic, whatever, all from 1 spell list as arcane spells. However, they had the most limited spells they could cast per day in the world, considering it was a low-magic system after all.

Their system was simple: You get 1 Spell Point X Channeler Level + Int, Wis, or Cha (whichever you pick) bonus. So a 20th level Channel with 22 Intelligence would have 26 Spell Points.

Spell points were simple - they didnt regenerate except from 8 hours of rest, and spells cost a number of spell points equal to their spell level. Adding metamagic feats increased the spell level by a number of points as to what core metamagic feats would by levels - a Maximized Fireball would cost 6 SP.

Problem with this system was the incredible lack of power. At the most, by 20th level you could get a handful of mid-level spells off, alot of low-level spells, or 2-4 high level spells per day, and you were out. They balanced this by giving the channel average base attack, d8 hit dice, 4 + int skill points - bt that does not matter.

My idea -

I was thinking of a similar system along these lines; spellcasters get X amount of SP each level based on their class, plus a set bonus amount equal to their spellcasting ability modifier. Spells cost their spell level in SP, and metamagic can be applied as a increase to SP (but not beyond a number of SP above the limit you can normally cast).

Example SP each level;
Wizard: 3 SP
Sorcerer: 5 SP
Cleric: 3 SP
Druid: 3 SP
Paladin: 1 SP (at 4th+)
Bard: 2 SP
Ranger: 1 SP (at 4th+)

Im thinking as a rule of the thumb you can cast a number of cantrips each day at a base cost of 0 SP (can be modified to cost SP if metamagic is applied) equal to your spellcasting ability modifer - afterwords they cost 1 point each.

So a 4th level Wizard with 19 Intelligence would have about 16 SP. Enough to cast 8 level 2 spells, or 16 level 1 spells, or 20 cantrips, or some mix thereof.

A level 20 sorcerer with 30 charisma would have about 110 SP, enough to cast 12 9th level spells, 13 8th level spells, 15 7th level spells, OR 18 6th level spells, etc. But this is if they focus on purely a single level of spell; for example they could also cast a single 9th level spell and toss around ten 3rd level spells, and 10 cantrips for only 39 SP (not including metamagic).

Now, the best part about this is a caster can 'dim their flame' and last longer, casting spells a few levels under their highest spell level they can cast to preserve their energy for long durations of battles, etc. Or, during emergencies.. they can KABLAMO! And just go 9th level spell spam on an enemys ass, but burn out after a few rounds and cant even cast mid/low-level spells once their energy is out. This gives casters much needed staying power in a fight - if they can learn to balance their 'budget' and keep some self restraint. Just because you hit level 5 and got that new fireball spell means your ready to toss it around like fire crackers! (5th level wizard, 19 int = 19 SP, enough for 6 fireballs, but after that your done for an entire day, no second level or 1st level spells!)

Feats like "Extra Spell Slot, etc" could just be redone in a Toughness like theme - Mana Capacity, requires spellcasting level 1st+, gives +3 Mana to the character, can be taken multiple times. Or something even that lets you regenerate it - Fast Regeneration, you can recover a number of mana/sp equal to your ability modifier each hour, or 1-2 mana every 10 minutes, etc.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?


Edit -;

As for different spell pools, etc, id consider giving them different names/types, Wizards/Sorcerers use Mana, Clerics/Druids can use Spirit Energy, etc. A cleric's spell list and druid's spell list could both be used with the same type of energy due to the singularities of the source of power (faith/worship based), same with wiz/sorc with raw arcane energy, but your spell 'pools' would be separate if you went into Wizard and Druid for example.

Bulwer
2009-04-11, 06:50 AM
I love it. I'm already trying to think of an excuse to use it somewhere.

I also think that cantrips should be way easier to cast. Maybe caster level+stat bonus would be a better number to go with for number of "free" cantrips a day?

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 06:55 AM
I would just say "they cost 0 energy all the time unless metamagic augmentation is applied to them" but, id get complaints from the ZOMG INFINITE SPELLS complaint department for even considering it. I suppose theirs nothing wrong with Caster Level + Ability Modifier cantrips free a day, but only if it applied to all cantrips, even from other spellcasting classes.

Bulwer
2009-04-11, 07:53 AM
Paizo's Pathfinder has infinite cantrips, and the only real modification they made was to change Cure and Inflict Minor Wounds into Stabilize and Bleed, so as not to provide infinite healing.

TSED
2009-04-11, 08:04 AM
Swords & Sorcery put out a variant of 3E (EverQuest RPG) where the casters used mana.

I believe you got ( [class] * [ability modifier] * 2 ) spell points, though the paladin and shadowknight were probably lower (it's been a while since I looked). The various spells were both level-restricted and mana-cost variable (so 'better' spells of the same level would be more worthwhile, and amusingly enough it fixed evocation).

Problem is, you'd have to go through and redo every spell. Big time sink if you're looking to play with regular D&D spells. And I doubt it'd work to just translate since there were like 8 full casters.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 08:06 AM
I have the Everquest RPG book - im not touching its spellcasting with a 50 foot pole - heck, their spells go up to 14th level. -shivers-

Satyr
2009-04-11, 09:28 AM
I am using a spell point based magic system for years, and I found it to be more intuitive and flexible for the spellcasters and a good way of balance against the necessary limitations for magic to limit the sheer overkill of magic in the basic game.
Free cantrips aren't problematic either, but some kind of counterweight - like a skill check for succesful spellcasting and increased casting time used in Serpents and Sewers - is obligatory. Okay, it is obligatory if you do not use a mana system, but the combination works better than the standard sytem n every single regard.

arpin
2009-05-10, 05:40 AM
We need a way for sorcerers to still have a good reason to go past level 20.

No new spells. I definetly like it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-10, 01:06 PM
Just use Psionics and reflavor it to be magic.

Flickerdart
2009-05-10, 01:11 PM
We need a way for sorcerers to still have a good reason to go past level 20.
More like past level 5, when they can PrC into something useful.

Justin B.
2009-05-10, 01:13 PM
A 4th level wizard being able to cast 8 second level spells per day. This is a Bad IdeaTM for anyone concerned about Wizard power. You've just doubled their capacity for spells.

Sonar009
2009-05-10, 11:07 PM
You've just doubled their capacity for spells.

Correction: You've doubled their capacity for second level spells and disabled everything else.

Draz74
2009-05-11, 12:53 AM
Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

It's similar to what I'm working on, except I make mana available on a per-encounter basis rather than per-day. Your idea still has "15-minute workday syndrome" built into it (although there are plenty of players who aren't bothered by that).

Still, that's my suggestion: cut mana down sharply, but make it easy to recharge in between fights. Recharging it will eventually give you fatigue conditions and whatnot, though, so it's still not "infinite spells/day."

Kosjsjach
2009-05-11, 01:36 AM
It's similar to what I'm working on, except I make mana available on a per-encounter basis rather than per-day. Your idea still has "15-minute workday syndrome" built into it (although there are plenty of players who aren't bothered by that).

Still, that's my suggestion: cut mana down sharply, but make it easy to recharge in between fights. Recharging it will eventually give you fatigue conditions and whatnot, though, so it's still not "infinite spells/day."

Can you post what rules you have so far? I'm intrigued by all of this, and I'd like to see a few alternatives/variants.

(I also like the idea of infinite cantrips with the Pathfinder fix.)

arkol
2009-05-11, 01:40 AM
If you make it that lvl1 spells cost 1 whatever, and lvl 2 spells cost two whatevers and so on, the system will be broken, because no two lvl1 spells are worth a lvl2 spells, no two lvl2 spells are worth a lvl3 spell etc...

Even spell points work a bit differently from that and still is not right.

Draz74
2009-05-11, 02:24 AM
Can you post what rules you have so far? I'm intrigued by all of this, and I'd like to see a few alternatives/variants.

Difficult, because

I haven't gotten very far with it :smallredface:
I don't have a lot written about it yet; it's mostly in my head
it's entangled with a lot of other crazy stuff I intend to do


But here are the basic ideas.


Make some kind of spellcasting system that's a hybrid between Fax's Spellweaving System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103250) and the Psionics rules. To cast a spell, you need to use up Magic Points (MP).
Spellcasters have Magic Points equal to their caster level plus the relevant ability modifier. This is really not very much. This means a high-level caster who throws out a single spell with maximum augmentation has probably used up over half of his magic for the encounter already. (At low levels, things are a little more forgiving, because ability modifiers are bigger compared to caster levels.)
Adventurers "running out of steam" and having to rest for the night is governed by a Reserve Points system. Reserve Points work a lot like 4e Healing Surges, except that there aren't really any ways you can burn more than one of them up within a single encounter in order to "nova" your various special abilities. Oh yeah, and they also can't magically heal you from actual serious wounds.
To recharge your MP to their full amount, you require a Short Rest. You must also make a Will Save or lose 1 Reserve Point whenever you recharge your MP like this. This Will Save is DC 20 or so ... pretty tough at low levels, reasonable but hardly automatic at high levels.
Note that all of this is happening in an "E8" framework (i.e. character level can't get higher than 8).
There will be various special abilities that let you stretch, but not break, the harsh limits this puts on casters within a single encounter. Feats that give you an extra 2 MP ... feats similar to Overchannel that let you cast even when you're out of MP, but you'll probably knock yourself unconscious ... Pacts that let you regain 2 MP every time you cast a fire spell that costs you at least 2 MP ... that sort of thing.



(I also like the idea of infinite cantrips with the Pathfinder fix.)

Besides Cure Minor, the other SRD cantrip that causes semimajor problems with infinite access is Create Water.