[PrC] Collaborative Effort: Master Tactician

[Fax Celestis]

The following is a collaborative effort between myself and The Logic Ninja. Presenting! The Master Tactician.
[hr]
HD: d8

Requirements: BAB +5, Knowledge (Tactics) 4 ranks, Combat Expertise, any one Tactical feat

{table]
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special

1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Master of Tactics, Insightful Defense, Bonus Fighter Feat

2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Insightful Fighting, Tactical Delay (5' Step)

3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Uncanny Dodge

4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Tactical Delay (Swift)

5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Bonus Fighter Feat

6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Tactical Delay (Move)

7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Improved Uncanny Dodge

8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Tactical Delay (Standard)

9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Bonus Fighter Feat

10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Tactical Delay (Full-Attack)[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Tactics), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble

Proficiencies: The Master Tactician does not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies.

Master of Tactics (Ex): The Master Tactician has a pool of action points. At the end of each of his rounds, he gains one action point, up to a maximum of his class level. He may expend points from this pool as an immediate action to receive bonus actions.

1 point: swift action
2 points: move action
3 points: standard action
5 points: full-round action.

At the beginning of each encounter, a Master Tactician may make a Knowledge (Tactics) check DC 10 as a free action. If he succeds, he gains one point for his action pool, plus another point for every 5 points he beats the DC by.

Insightful Defense (Ex): A Master Tactician adds his Intelligence bonus to his Armor Class as an insight bonus. This bonus cannot exceed his Tactician class level.

Bonus Fighter Feat: At first, fifth, and ninth levels, a Master Tactician gains a bonus feat as a fighter would.

Insightful Fighting (Ex): Starting at second level, a Master Tactician gains a +1 insight bonus made to any opposed roll made in combat for every four ranks he has in Knowledge (Tactics).

Tactical Delay (Ex): At second level, as a free action, a Master Tactician can forego one round's 5' step to gain a second 5' step in the following round. At fourth level, this improves so that a Master Tactician can forego one round's swift action to gain a second swift action in the next round. At sixth level, this improves so that a Master Tactician can forego one round's move action to gain a second move action in the next round. At eighth level, this improves again, so that a Master Tactician can forego one standard action to gain a second standard action in the next round. At tenth level, this improves one last time, so that a Master Tactician can forego one full-attack action to gain a second full-attack action in the next round. He may use this ability (in any form) a number of times equal to his Intelligence bonus per encounter. The Master Tactician must take no action in the first round that would have prevented the delayed action (two move actions when delaying a standard action, etc.).

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At third level, the Master Tactician gains the benefits of Uncanny Dodge. If he already has uncanny dodge, he instead gains improved uncanny dodge.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At seventh level, the Master Tactician gains Improved Uncanny Dodge.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

The idea was totally mine! ;D The execution was equal parts both of us, though.

I really like this. I now want to play one.

[Goumindong]

IMHO it needs to be toned down, its too good as a dip for any casters, or anyone with powerful swift actions.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

I didn't think of high-level casters dipping it; 5' step and swift action should be switched.

Insightful Fighting should be limited by level is a good point.

Changing Tactical Delay to be able to ready actions would probably make it more balanced, although I think the INT bonus/encounter cap will stop it from complete abuse?

I don't see how making it not get a point back when it uses one until 5th level (like you said in the other thread) would help, though.

[Goumindong]

I didn't think of high-level casters dipping it; 5' step and swift action should be switched.

Insightful Fighting should be limited by level is a good point.

Changing Tactical Delay to be able to ready actions would probably make it more balanced, although I think the INT bonus/encounter cap will stop it from complete abuse?

I don't see how making it not get a point back when it uses one until 5th level (like you said in the other thread) would help, though.


The point was that for fighters, the extra swift action/round isnt so powerful as it is for casters. And for casters a 5 level dip to get two spells would pretty much break the point of getting the extra swift action for spells(as now you are 5 levels behind).

I was thinking of getting rid of the int bonus cap and just let it be a tactical ability. The int bonus isnt much of a cap anyway, i mean, you will want as high an int as you can get and most battles wont last more than 10 rounds, making the cap almost meaningless.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

A fighter type won't necessarily have that high an INT, though. You could do pretty well in this class with an INT of, say, 14. I do like the "readied action" thing for Tactical Delay--it's more, well, tactical. However, that makes Tactical Delay(Standard) meaningless, as you can already ready standard actions as standard actions. I think that replacing Tactical Delay (Standard) with the ability to beam the actions into the future by expending 1 action point would be fairly balanced.

You now need to take 4 levels to get Tactical Delay (swift), which denies casters the use of high-level spells. This stops working in epic, but let's face it, epic is broken no matter what, epic casters in particular, and outside of epic games, it isn't a concern.

[Goumindong]

A fighter type won't necessarily have that high an INT, though. You could do pretty well in this class with an INT of, say, 14. I do like the "readied action" thing for Tactical Delay--it's more, well, tactical.


yea, but then you add items. Remeber you get int to AC, and you need combat expertise(13 int required), so you are going to end up around 20 int or more. This means that fighter types planning to go into this class can dump dex(which they probably already do, but now they can do it near completly) and put the rest into int and sill get good bonuses.

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My other comments.

with changes. I see it having too many ways to build up actions, and too many ways to abuse it.

If the delayed action were changed to be similar to readied actions that would be better.

I.E. a master tactician can ready a 5 foot step(to be used before his next action) by using up his 5 foot step for the round. Or he could ready a move action by using up his move action for the round.

That in itself is very strong, but making it a delay (so that it can be used in conjunction with the next round) is just too good.

Insightful Fighting should be "for every 5 ranks not to exceed the insighful fighters level" I.E. You cant level dip 2 levels at lvl 18 to get a +4 bonus to all, it would cap at +2.

Master of Tactics needs a change too.

1. Tactical points only increase during encounters.

2. You get extra points for every +10 you beat the DC by, +5 is too much.

3. The action to gain extra points is a swift action.

4. If a tatical point is used, you do not gain another tactical point at the end of the round.

5. At level five you gain a new tactical point regardless of whether you used a point that round.

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Basically, i think the class is too strong, especial for level dips. I mean, a wizard can get into the class for two tactical feats and gain an extra swift action/round.
That is the equivelent of an Epic feat for casters. Now imagine Clerics with that power.

As the one limiter to most classes is limited actions, any class or ability that grants more actions is always circumspect.

To classes who have less swift actions or swift action spells it isnt as important, but as swift actions become more prominient(though spells from the completes as a good example) it becomes a much stronger abilitiy, espeicaly as a dip.

Ill let you take it, but with the above changes. There is one stipulation, if anything gets ridiculous, i have the leverage to make further changes. However, you will have the ability (as we are testing something out) to change anything as if you had known about the change before hand, changes will not occur until it becomes a problem, and will not occur in the middle of any encounter.

[asromta]

Shouldn't there be a note under Insightful defence that it does not stack with Canny Defence from a Duelist?

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Nope. Each is limited by levels in that particular class; a Duelist 5/Master Tactician 5 would get 10 AC if he had 30 INT somehow, as would a Duelist 10 and a Master Tactician 10

[asromta]

But if you have a int of 14, you could get +4 on your AC from that.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Yeah, you could. You'd be giving up the higher-level abilities of both classes, though, so I'm not too worried.

[Goumindong]

But if you have a int of 14, you could get +4 on your AC from that.


Yes, but it requires two PRC's and 4 levels.

Two PRC's that have conflicting entry requirements.

One has:
Dodge/Mobility/Weapon Finesse + 5 ranks in tumble and 3 in perform.

Both of which are cross class for fighters.

The other: 4 ranks of knowledge(tactics), Combat Expertise, and a tactical feat(most of which require more than just combat expertise as a pre-requisite).

So in order to get into both classes it will take just about all of your feats and will eat up just about all of your skill choices.

And even then the ability isnt so powerful (+15 total AC at level 20? Strong, but not STRONG!)

[asromta]

You are right, I thought it was not meant to stack.

[amanodel]

TLN, you're already playing one in Athkatla :) Just imagine what would happen if your fighter took this PrC. He would rock. Even more than he does now.


At the beginning of each encounter, a Master Tactician may make a Knowledge (Tactics) check DC 10 as a free action. If he succeds, he gains one point for his action pool, plus another point for every 5 points he beats the DC by.

If it was me I'd made the check DC depending on the encounter. At later levels, beating 10 is not an issue, even if you only give rewards for every 5 points. It's like giving him a bonus full-round action for free. I'd make it an opposed roll, the villain could use a d20+attack bonus, bluff or somthing similar.

Insightful defense is really better than the canny defense, here's no restriction on the armor. Again, it's like +2 AC for free.

Insightful fighting simply rocks the hell with the trippin' - feintin' - disarmin' combat monkeys. Poor monsters and villains are usually low on these, the "improved x" gives you +4 advantage, as well a good weapon also gives you +2 or 4. So now your ahead of the monsters by +7. And the master tactican adds a further 3-4-5 bonus. It's okay, but if you use it together with the action delaying stuff, every villain in the battlefield will be flat-footed, prone and disarmed by the end of the first turn. Even oozes.

What else is left to say about? I love it :)

ps: To make him a demi-god, add the duelist's ability about +4 AC versus AoO's.

[Goumindong]

Deft opportunist is a feat you can pick up with no prereq... It gives +4 attack to AoO's.

[amanodel]

I wasn't aware that it's included as a normal feat in somewhere. It's Complete Warrior or PHB2?

[Goumindong]

I wasn't aware that it's included as a normal feat in somewhere. It's Complete Warrior or PHB2?


CWar.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

The duelist's ability is +4 AC vs. attacks of opportunity provoked by moving; Deft Opportunist in Complete Adventurer gives *you* +4 AB when you make attacks of opportunity.

This would actually be a worse choice for Rache than pure Fighter if Complete Warrior and a few other things were availible, Amanodel; AoO battlefield control builds normally don't worry about # of actions, because AoOs are their bread and butter, thanks to Karmic Strike (AoO when someone hits you) and reach. You should've seen the battlefield controller I had in an Eberron sky-pirates game. :P At one point I tripped and disarmed eight people in a single round. After taking my own action. :)
The purpose of this PrC is to, well, give more tactical options in combat, to make a tactical fighter rather thank one focused on raw tanking/damage.

Right now I'm looking at:
-redoing the "Tactical Delay" ability into readied actions (ready a 5' step instead of a 5' step, ready a move action instead of a move action--with the ability gained instead of Tactical Delay(Standard) to spend action pool points to send the actions into next rounds; normally, you can only ready standard actions as standard actions)
-changing how many action pool points the MT starts each encounter with
-making use of the Master of Tactics ability a swift rather than an immediate action: this would mean that the MT would have to ready a swift action with Tactical Delay if he wanted to interrupt someone else's action with Master of Tactics gained-actions.

Those should tone down the PrCs abilities somewhat.

[amanodel]

The ready action sounds good.

Tactical defense and tactical fighting is the major issue with this build. One could easily get +10 +12 advantage versus a non-combat-expertise-built character of the same level. Even in a slight advantage versus a large creature.

"Graaauugh! Me mighty ogre barbarian with even mightier greataxe! I charge at you puny halberd-man."
*some d20 rolling*
"Graaauugh! Me mighty ogre barbarian laying in the ground without weapon!"

And the Knowledge check vs DC 10 earns you an extra standard action on avarage. If you make it to the surprise round, win initiative, and succeed in the knowedge check, you can easily brutalize a whole hobgoblin army before the encounter even starts.

But that's what PrC's are good for, anyway. Combat expertise is a very strong build for a fighter, and strenghtening it further without any restriction (like it was done with duelist. I mean there were restrictions.) makes a one-man army.

Oh, and I'm notoriously judging everything based on the phb. I'm making a habit of not buying supply books. :)

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Insightful Fighting grants a maximum of +5 at level 20 with 10 levels of this PrC. That's good, but that's what the class does (and there are noncore feats/abilities that give you +4 on trip checks, etc); you give up BAB and 3/4. Like I said, it's a tactical fighter, not a straight-up damage dealer.

[Fax Celestis]

What about making the Know (Tactics) check be against DC 10+Class level?

[amanodel]

Yeah, either 10+CL or 10+attack bonus. But something along that line. The only thing that bothers me about that: What if the players encounter an ogre and his kobold sidekick?

I'd probably say 10 or 15 + Encounter level.

[martyboy74]

You should've seen the battlefield controller I had in an Eberron sky-pirates game. :P At one point I tripped and disarmed eight people in a single round. After taking my own action. :)
How did you get that kind of a dexterity score? That's at least a 40 dexterity!

[The_Logic_Ninja]

How did you get that kind of a dexterity score? That's at least a 40 dexterity!

It was 8 AoOs. 24 dex is actually enough to make 8 AoOs, since it's +7, and you get 1 + DEX bonus with Combat Reflexes! Improved Trip to trip them, disarm them with the free attack.

[I_Got_This_Name]

This looks like a good, solid class. It has a few problems, though.

First, spenidng points for actions is an immediate action. I think you meant free; an immediate action is a swift action that you can take when it isn't your turn. As a free action, this lets you spend five points to take two full-rounds on a single turn. As an immediate action, buying a swift action is useless, and buying a full-round action lets you do ridiculous things, like full attacking to interrupt a spellcaster.

Also, Tactical Delay probably should have it noted that it does not stack with itself; you shouldn't be able to, for example, Tactical Delay a full round action, then delay both on the next round, to take 3 (4 with Master of Tactics) on the third round. It could also be worded better. Perhaps make it that the first one is "in place of taking a 5' step, you may give yourself an additional 5' step in one round," then make the swift action delay simply a swift action that gives you another swift action next round, then make the move action delay a move action, and so on.

Also, what does Knowledge (Tactics) do, other than power this class's abilities? What can you know with it?