PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Good scrolls for a fighter/warblade (exemplar) to carry?



Dire_E_Coyote
2009-04-11, 02:29 PM
At character level 11 and higher, a fighter/barbarian, warblade, or any martial character could use scrolls reliably by taking two levels of rogue (regular or fighter feat variant) during levels 1-10 to meet the prerequisites, then taking a level of Exemplar (complete adventurer) at character level 11, with focus on Use Magic Device skill.

The character loses 2 BAB and a few hit points, in exchange for boosts to reflex and will saves and, most importantly, the ability to use reliably any scroll of caster level less than or equal to character level. (Even with int/wis/cha all at 10. Just keep skill ranks in UMD at maximum.) That sounds like a good exchange in a campaign where opponents use lots of nasty high-level spells.

What are the best scrolls for such a character to carry? These are for emergencies, not for every single encounter (although true strike, enlarge person, and mirror images might see repeated use). Assume the party has an arcane and a divine caster, but sometimes they’re absent or incapacitated or busy trying to stay alive. Besides, the high level warblade / fighter hit by a forcecage or a maze wants to escape without help. And if he’s carrying one high-level offensive scroll, maybe every once in a great while he’ll try what Indiana Jones did in Temple of Doom when faced with a nasty fight that he just didn’t feel like dealing with.

Here’s a starting wish list, but I’m looking for improvements – either add important scrolls, or subtract unnecessary scrolls to shorten the list.

High priority –carry one or a few unless magic items make them redundant.
. Level 1: Cure light wounds, Enlarge person, Protection from evil/good, True strike
. Level 2: Align weapon, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror images, See invisibility, Wraithstrike*
. Level 3: Blink, Dispel magic, Fly, Magic weapon (greater), Neutralize poison
. Level 4: Cure critical wounds, Freedom of movement, Polymorph self*, Stoneskin
. Level 5: Plane shift, Teleport, True seeing
. Level 6: Anti-magic field, Brilliant Blade*, Disintegrate, Dispel magic (greater), Globe of invulnerability, Heal
. Level 7: Bite of the Werebear*, Teleport (greater)
. Level 8: Iron body, Mind blank
. Level 9: Freedom, Time stop*

(*non-core or “too good” – so these might be unavailable in some campaigns)

Nice to have, depending on the campaign:
. Level 0: Detect magic, Detect poison, Purify food/drink
. Level 1: Alarm, Charm person, Benign transposition*, Detect evil/good, Divine favor, Endure elements, Grease, Knock, Speak with animals
. Level 2: Baleful transposition*, Darkvision, Detect thoughts, Find traps, Hold person, Remove paralysis, Rope trick, Silence, Shatter, Web
. Level 3: Arcane sight, Gaseous form, Glibness, Haste, Nondetection, Phantom steed, Protection from energy, Remove curse, Remove disease, Stone shape, Tongues, Water breathing
. Level 4: Arcane eye, Black tentacles, Celerity*, Death Ward, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Invisibility (greater), Resilient sphere, Scrying, Shadow conjuration, Shadow jaunt, Solid fog
. Level 5: Break Enchantment, Contingent energy resistance*, Blink (greater)*, Hold monster, Overland flight, Raise dead, Righteous Might, Shadow evocation, Telekinesis, Wall of force, Wall of stone
. Level 6: Contingency, Find the path, Heroism (greater)
. Level 7: Arcane sight (greater), Energy Immunity*, Ethereal jaunt, Forcecage, Limited wish*, Resurrection, Shadow conjuration (greater)
. Level 8: Prying eyes (greater), Polymorph any object*, Shadow evocation (greater)
. Level 9: Dominate monster, Mage’s disjunction*, Shapechange*

Eldariel
2009-04-11, 09:23 PM
First, let's explore what you said of the dip a bit:
-You don't need Rogue to qualify. Every one of the classes you listed can either cross-class or in-class Diplomacy & has class skills, thus being able to max one. This means you lose only one point of BAB.
-We need to explore other options. Instead of Exemplar, which costs you a feat to enter, you could dip the said Martial Rogue (or standard Rogue, but for most Fighter-types, Martial Rogue is better as trying to qualify for Sneak Attack brings a load of hassle with it), or Factotum [Dungeonscape]. We need to weight the merits of each of these dips separately. For simplicity's sake, I'm not touching Bard right now as it offers a totally different set of abilities, though including Use Magic Device.
-Use Magic Device does much more than just allows you to use scrolls. More on that in a minute.
-Scrolls have severe limitations. More on this in a minute too.


Topic #1: Classes

There're three relevant options for UMD, or frankly four as Martial Rogue and standard Rogue are completely different classes.

1. Exemplar: We're looking at a Prestige Class (might be relevant for fools playing with favored classes) with all skills in class, 8+int skills & good Will-save. Maximum of a four level dip (since we have no reason to lose another point of BAB and the class is frontloaded), although one-three levels all make sense too. The relevant abilities:

Skill artistry: On levels 1 and 4, you gain +4 competence to a skill you have 13 ranks in. In English, this means you can pump your maxed skill even further. This is mostly useful for reaching very high checks. Unfortunately, this is competence. That's the bonus type virtually all magic items grant too, and since you can only take this in skill you've maxed, you'll probably have a magic item with a bigger payoff in that skill already. Might be relevant in Use Magic Device as magic items to boost that tend to be hard to find.

Skill mastery: The reason to take the class. Unfortunately, you can't benefit of this for Use Magic Device, and you only get 1+Int skills out of it. So if you're a high Int combatant (e.g. Warblade), this could very well be a reason to take this class.

Lend talent: Useful ability for some cases (e.g. Nanobots (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=458721)), but requires maxing the class and having Skill Artistry in some shareworthy skills. So not useful for you.

Bonus feat: Bonus feats rock. Only problem is that the only truly worthwhile feats in the list are Combat Expertise and Improved Initiative. This feat is much like Warblade's bonus feat list - filled with jank.

Sustaining presence: You're a melee fighter, you don't need this.


Good
-Skill Mastery (1+Int)
-Skill Artistry: Use Magic Device
-All skills in class (this will be explored further after individual class reviews)
-Bonus feat: Combat Expertise/Improved Initiative (unfortunately Expertise-types tend to have Expertise before level 14 and Improved Initiative isn't that high for melee in the end outside duels; gets better with retraining)
-Good Will-save

Bad
-Requires a weak feat to enter (Skill Focus, probably UMD)
-Can only be entered on level 11 (and thus no 4x skills from level 1).
-Costs you skillpoints for Diplomacy you might not otherwise take.


Conclusion: High Int types should consider Exemplar for the skill mastery it offers. Skill artistry: Use Magic Device can be somewhat relevant, but to get that before level 4, you need to be able to max Use Magic Device level 1, meaning either cross-class skills, retraining or 20 Int/18 Int + Human. The feat cost is massive (you could pick Able Learner instead and reap major rewards over the course of your career).


2. Factotum: Base class (might matter for fools with XP penalties) with all skills in class, 6+int skills and good Reflex-save. You're probably looking at three levels if you take any here.

Inspiration: Your currency for Factotum-abilities. Unfortunately limited for a dip character and probably not worth it to spend feats on maxing this. You'll have 3 points per encounter by level 3.

Cunning insight: Add your Int to a save, damage or attack roll with 1 Inspiration. Really, really handy for high Int-combatants - saves you from that Save or Die and can pierce the particularly tough defense.

Trapfinding: So you can be a trapmonkey. Congrats.

Cunning knowledge: When you really need to make a skill check. Of course, the bonus will be pretty small for a dip, but can still be handy. Costs inspiration though.

Arcane Dilettante: One level 0 spell per day for a point of inspiration. On level 3, this becomes a real ability as it becomes a level 1 spell. It's still just one spell, but never underestimate that key True Strike, Enlarge Person or Grease (note that Factotum-spells have actual save DCs thanks to being geared off Int).

Brains over Brawn: The reason to choose this dip over anything else: Add your Int to all Str & Dex checks and skills. Notables are Initiative, Tripping, Tumble, Balance & random physicals you might occasionally need.


Good
-All skills in class
-Can be taken on level 1 for 4x skills
-Good Ref-save
-1 level 1 spell per day
-Brains over Brawn! Oh, and add Int to anything few times per encounter

Bad
-No bonus feats
-Only 6+Int skills
-No Evasion for a good Ref-save class (reducing Ref-save's value)


Conclusion: The other option for high Int-types - much better than Exemplar for everything except Skill Mastery. Adding Int to stuff can often "make up" for that, but Exemplar can choose any skills for skill mastery and there're some pretty exotic skills you could really use Mastery in. That said, this option kicks ass and even if you can't fit all 3 levels, you get the bang for your buck - just make sure to take the first level as your first level overall.


3. Martial Rogue: Base class with a solid skill list and 8+Int skillpoints. The real selling feature here are the Fighter-feats; while pumping your skill list, you also improve your combat ability. Like Fighter, this is generally a two-level class.

Trapfinding: Yeah, you can be a monkey should you so decide. Tradeable for Poison Use [Drow of the Underdark], arguably only for Drow Rogues though.

Evasion: Hooray! Your Ref-saves suddenly became useful!

Bonus feat: The real reason to take this class - while the above options focus their class features on improving your skill use, Martial Rogue keeps improving your combat ability giving you two very worthwhile feats over two levels. As every long-standing player knows, outside Core you can never have enough feats.


Good
-8+Int skills
-Feats!
-Evasion+Good Reflex-save
-You get all the good stuff with only a two-level dip, the optimal amount for a martial adept Initiator Level-wise.
-Possible Poison Use (although poisons cost)

Bad
-No skill-related abilities
-Limited skill list


Conclusion: Not much to say here, übergood for low Int-types, kickass for everyone who wants to excel at more than one thing and happens to give you Evasion too. Definitely one of the better dips available.


4. Sneak Attack Rogue: Ah yes, the classic! Base class with 8+int skills, good skill list, some bonus damage (two-weapon fighters should consider this if they weren't feat-starved 'cause the feat chain costs you a ****ton of feats) & kicking ass. You're looking at either one or three levels. Probably three if you want to make something out of your Sneak Attack.


Good
-Sneak Attack
-8+Int skill points
-Penetrating Strike (alternative class feature from Dungeonscape, trades Trap Sense for the ability to sneak attack normally immune creatures when flanking)
-Trapfinding (same trade as before available)
-Good Reflex-save + Evasion

Bad
-No bonus feats
-No skill-related abilities
-Limited skill list


Conclusion: Two-Weapon Fighters should consider this. Most of the others are better off with the other classes, and two-weapon fighters need to weight Sneak Attack vs. bonus feats (tip: latter generally wins out). Qualifies you for Craven [Champions of Ruin], which vastly improves your Sneak Attack damage, and gives you ability to SA anything though so if Sneak Attack is easily available in your party, this should be considered.


Topic #2: Skills

That's the four candidates. Now, one more thing; what does the "Limited vs. Unlimited Skill List" truly mean? In Core or even Core+Completes+PHBII, not much. The skills you'd want to max are Rogue class skills anyways. However, there are more exotic skills in other books that boost Factotum and Exemplar (especially the former as you can take one level on level one thus easily affording the skill points to max the said exotic skills).

Most relevantly, Iaijutsu Focus can directly translate into superior combat ability. Autohypnosis is a rather potent skill too, and if they're kept separate, having access to both, Use Psionic Device & Use Magic Device can be very worthwhile. More on the subject:
Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) - a build that makes heavy use of obscure skills in a Factotum-shell
The Factotum Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436) - a treatise dealing with all the aspects of a Factotum, including their unconventional skill options; could use an index and is unfinished, but has something in it.
The 3.5 Expanded Skill List (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=755273) - all skills published in 3.5.


Now then, what do we get? Well, first of all, high Int types should gravitate towards Factotum & Exemplar, while low Int types (and two-weapon fighters) should gravitate towards the Rogues. Out of Factotum and Exemplar, Factotum wins out easily unless you have specific skills you want/need Skill Mastery for.

Out of the two Rogues, Martial Rogue wins out most of the time unless you need sources of bonus damage. Martial Rogue and Exemplar are the better classes if you can only fit one-two levels though. Finally, taking two of the classes without fractional saves/BAB in the picture is practically never vindicated - you just shouldn't bother losing extra BAB for no reason - that means worse Power Attack, worse hitting and worse everything else. Lose few points and you'll soon be looking at wasting an action on Divine Power (that you can't quicken) in the start of every encounter. If you want more skillpoints, just take extra levels in your chosen dip class. With fractionals in the picture though, multiclass freely although remember that Factotum & Rogue both have great abilities on level 3.


Topic #3: Use Magic Device

First of all, most of those scrolls are too expensive to actually use much of the time, others of little use. Anything that offers a save should be discounted outright as Scroll Save DC lacks the stat boost and thus is always too low to matter (exception being spells that screw people even on a successful save, such as Grease and Web). You should also remove ones reliant on caster level as chances are, you're not making the check (unless you invest in the really expensive high CL scrolls, which is practically never worth it).

The real workhorse of UMD are Wands. Rogues have been Wandcasting since PHB came out and it's not a bad place to be at. Of course, as the martial classes the topic is for don't have Sneak Attack, they don't quite get the same punch out of spells as Rogues do (much of Rogue's Wandcraft is based around ensuring sneak attacks, performing them at range and with touch attacks), but there's still a number of Wands worth thinking of provided that your casters don't have that ground adequately covered (or you want some personal buffs).

Scrolls of Cure X Wounds are very uneconomical. They're also worthless in combat, and pretty worthless outside combat too. Much better to get one Wand of Cure Light Wounds (or even better, Wand of Lesser Vigor [SpC]) and UMD that. Scroll Revivify [Spell Compendium] and Heal [PHB] instead - those spells are worth casting in combat and potentially the money you spent on that scroll, 'cause not having it will cost you much, much more. Every character being able to act as an emergency "Cleric" definitely helps.


You shouldn't bother scrolling 24 hour buffs - either you receive them from a caster or you make do without them and have permanently enhanced magic items instead - it gets expensive really quick to use them every morning especially since they tend to be Caster Level-dependent meaning you need new Wands periodically (or tons of money on the scroll). So all that chaff needs to leave.

Finally, 1 round/level buffs aren't really worth it from scrolls. You spend a lot of money to something you might never get to use and even if you do, might end up gaining no mileage out of since your opponents left.


All that said, I need to point you towards:
Rogue's Spell List (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-380454) (UMD compilation)

It's got the work done, although with Rogues in mind - mostly you want the same stuff, except not the Sneak Attack-related ones and not the ones mitigating for medium BAB (mostly just Divine Power).


Best of luck.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 01:29 AM
Excellent answer from Eldariel, and I can't contradict anything he said. I will, however, mention that you should also look into eternal wands (Magic Item Compendium) and Minor Schemas (Magic of Eberron). The former is like a normal wand, but you can use it twice a day, every day forever, and the latter is like a scroll, but usable once per day forever. Either can be very useful, depending on when you expect to be using certain spells. The ideal case would be something with a duration of 24 hours, so you always know you'll be wanting to cast it exactly once per day.

Dire_E_Coyote
2009-04-13, 06:59 PM
Eldariel, thanks for the feedback. Lots of useful stuff there. Two things to clarify what you said.

1) I believe that the examplar's skill mastery (always take-a-10) should work with UMD skill. Here's my reasoning: The core rule that you can't take a 10 on UMD (or any skill under stressful circumstances) was written first, and the examplar was written later, and I was under the impression that rules written later trumped rules written earlier. Also, the ability to take-a-10 on a skill when ordinary mortals can't seems to be almost the whole reason for the exemplar's existence, and the text does not explicitly forbid the UMD skill. Also, the warlock class is explicitly allowed to take-a-10 on UMD, so I don't see why exmplars shouldn't be able to do so as well.

2) You make a good point that it's not very useful to carry attack scrolls that allow a save, or buff scrolls of 24-hour duration (unless planning a solo adventure). You say that scrolls are expensive, but 30 scrolls cost the same as a wand of the same spell level, so there's a trade-off of versatility versus raw number. I suspect that a martial character would be better off with 5 Align weapon, 5 Glitterdust, 5 Invisibility, and 15 Mirror images scrolls than a wand of mirror images -- although of course it depends on the campaign. I agree that high level scrolls do get expensive. But I wouldn't want my high-level martial character to go around without one scroll of disintegrate, one of teleport, and one of plane shift. Because escaping from a forcecage, maze, or unwilling trip to an alternate plane ... priceless.

Chronos: nice idea about those Minor Schemas for 24-hour protections / buffs.

Chronos
2009-04-13, 08:36 PM
Exemplar's (or rogue's, for that matter) skill mastery ability lets you take 10 even when distractions like combat would ordinarily prevent you from doing so. So an exemplar can use his skills just as reliably in combat as out of combat. But you can't take 10 on UMD outside of combat, either, as an inherent property of the skill. Now, the Warlock and the Artificer both get abilities that explicitly override this, but the Exemplar ability does not explicitly override it.