"Start of Darkness" and comic #115

[Haven]

I just noticed something odd. By the end of "Start of Darkness", Xykon's trapped the souls of Dorukan and Lirian in a gem in his pocket. But in #115, his body is destroyed in a massive explosion, and his bones are sent flying--so I would imagine his clothes are too. (And Redcloak just keeps a spare set of robes for him on-hand or obtained them, since he was able to produce three sets for the "dopplegangers"). Later on, the entire dungeon blows up.

However, Xykon later shows he has Dorukan's headband, meaning that he was able to escape with at least some of his possessions.

So, what do you think: was the gemstone destroyed? Personally I hope it was, because that means that Roy accomplished SOMETHING by throwing Xykon at the gate...and those two deserve a good afterlife.

[The Blackbird]

No that would be bad, Dorukon and Lirian would have there souls devoured by the Snarl then. I think Xykon gave it to Redcloak before the fight.

[Salt_Crow]

Just couldn't be bothered to spoiler bits and pieces...

The headband of Dorukan was not worn by Xykon because (quite presumably) he wanted his bad-ass crown in his head slot. Since Cloister spell obviously doesn't need to be cast every so often, he might as well have just given it to Redcloak for safekeeping.

Black Sapphire, however, doesn't take up any body slot (pocket, maybe?), so it is equally likely that Xykon may have kept it on his person. In which case we could hope for a happy ending- at least for the two epic adventurers.

A complication in this happily-ever-after scenario is that Soul Bind is a spell that Xykon doesn't use in a regular basis. He certainly didn't use for non-epic opponents as of yet. Also its use is quite limited to post-battle only, which means he could've gave it to Redcloak along with the headband (so it'd be Redcloak rolling for Search check not Xykon). A likely scenario since we (and Xykon/Redcloak etc) are familiar with how Xykon can be rather forgetful (whether purposefully or not) and needs his secretary:smallamused: to remind him every now and then.

[with an e]

We see that Redcloak call the soul of a goblin that was through into the gate back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), and that it was the rune that zapped the goblin. We also see that the energy is depicted as coming from the rune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). Thus, it is likely that Xykon simply had his body destroyed by Dorukon's protective rune. Regardless of whether (SoD):
the gem was on Xykon at the time, we need not worry about whether Dorukon and Lirian's souls were destroyed.

[The Blackbird]

We see that Redcloak call the soul of a goblin that was through into the gate back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), and that it was the rune that zapped the goblin. We also see that the energy is depicted as coming from the rune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). Thus, it is likely that Xykon simply had his body destroyed by Dorukon's protective rune. Regardless of whether (SoD):
the gem was on Xykon at the time, we need not worry about whether Dorukon and Lirian's souls were destroyed.

So Dorukon can destroy Xykon instantly with a protective rune, but he can't beat Xykon when preparing his spell list for him for over a year?

Also talking to the goblin may have been a plot hole, same with Fyron not having a son thing.

[ZeroNumerous]

So Dorukon can destroy Xykon instantly with a protective rune, but ...

Epic Spell: Protection Rune. Destroy seed. Deal [ArbitraryNumberGreaterThan100]d6 damage to creature that tries to pass under it.

I would imagine so, yes. Epic spells kind of throw out the rules like that.

[The Blackbird]

Epic Spell: Protection Rune. Destroy seed. Deal [ArbitraryNumberGreaterThan100]d6 damage to creature that tries to pass under it.

I would imagine so, yes. Epic spells kind of throw out the rules like that.

Is that a real spell? How do you know that the sigil was epic?

And still Dorukon could not beat Xykon even though he was preparing for a year.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, it's kind of a retconny answer, and a bit too retconny for my tastes, but it is possible Redcloak stopped by Xykon's junk drawer on his way out of the dungeon. Said drawer might contain the headband, the black gem, and any other small goodies Xykon has both before and after the explosion. (And yes, we have no way of knowing if he does still have the gem, but the point is that if he can still have the headband, he can still have the gem.)

[Dagren]

I love how everyone seems to be assuming that Xykon carries everything he owns around in his pockets. How many of you carry all your worldly possessions on your person?
Well, it's kind of a retconny answer, and a bit too retconny for my tastes, but it is possible Redcloak stopped by Xykon's junk drawer on his way out of the dungeon. Said drawer might contain the headband, the black gem, and any other small goodies Xykon has both before and after the explosion. (And yes, we have no way of knowing if he does still have the gem, but the point is that if he can still have the headband, he can still have the gem.)The alternative is that Redcloak abandoned all the group's treasure when he sneaked away.

[Green Bean]

And still Dorukon could not beat Xykon even though he was preparing for a year.

Look at it this way; Dorukan had however many decades there were between the creation of the gates and his death to upgrade the rune, but only a year to prepare for Xykon.

[Kyronea]

My impression was that Dorukun's epic spell knowledge was limited to defensive spells involving the Gate, and that otherwise his spell list was non-Epic.

And doesn't it take longer than a year to create an Epic-level spell anyway? (I'm not that familiar with D&D rules yet.)

[Silverraptor]

I'd like to say that epic lichs are hard. And Durokon's spells weren't all that affective. The prismic spray was cancelled because of the Black and White art work. He also summoned a bunch of celestials with lower hit dice then some big uber bad-ass one. And finally, Xykon used energy drain on Durokon that prevented him from using high levels spells.

[The Bookworm]

The stone does appear (albeit subtly) in comic #532. (It's either a lame hippie hairband, or the material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever. Probably both. - Xykon, Panel 7, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html ) It's likely to be used again, since the Giant did bring it back.

[Silverraptor]

The stone does appear (albeit subtly) in comic #532. (It's either a lame hippie hairband, or the material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever. Probably both. - Xykon, Panel 7, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html ) It's likely to be used again, since the Giant did bring it back.

That was a flashback.

[Starscream]

So Dorukon can destroy Xykon instantly with a protective rune, but he can't beat Xykon when preparing his spell list for him for over a year?

That's exactly why Xykon and company camped outside the castle for a year rather than simply invading outright. Even a guy who considered his tropps to be entirely expendable (and has a rather short attention span) would rather wait for a year to draw the wizard out than fight him on his home turf.

Edit: looked it up. Here are his actual words:

"By all accounts, this Dorukan is an epic level wizard who has been preparing his castle for sixty years to defend against exactly the sort of threat we pose to the gate in its dungeon. It's probably dripping in obscure warding spells and magical traps. Far better to get him out in the open and kill him before trying to crack it."

[with an e]

So Dorukon can destroy Xykon instantly with a protective rune, but he can't beat Xykon when preparing his spell list for him for over a year?

Also talking to the goblin may have been a plot hole, same with Fyron not having a son thing.
Advance a few strips from the goblin strip. You will see Xykon discussing how to unseal the gate with Redclock. Obviously, Dorukon could erect protective spells that Xykon could not undo.

We have two contending explanations, which have the following difficulties:
1. Xykon was destroyed by the Snarl. We have to consider the strip with the goblin and all strips that discuss Xykon's attempt at unsealing the gate to be plotholes.

2. Xykon was destroyed by Dorukon's protective rune. We have to assume that Dorukon lost a duel against an epic lich sorcerer, even though he could put up a rune that can destroy the same lich sorcerer.

Number 2 is obviously the less problematic explanation.

[The Blackbird]

Advance a few strips from the goblin strip. You will see Xykon discussing how to unseal the gate with Redclock. Obviously, Dorukon could erect protective spells that Xykon could not undo.

We have two contending explanations, which have the following difficulties:
1. Xykon was destroyed by the Snarl. We have to consider the strip with the goblin and all strips that discuss Xykon's attempt at unsealing the gate to be plotholes.

2. Xykon was destroyed by Dorukon's protective rune. We have to assume that Dorukon lost a duel against an epic lich sorcerer, even though he could put up a rune that can destroy the same lich sorcerer.

Number 2 is obviously the less problematic explanation.

Bah, fine:smallyuk:

I'd say your correct:smallamused:. It just annoys me that Xykon manage to win against Dorukon through a year of preparation becuase he did'nt thank of any anti-energy drain tactics especially when he seems to specilized in protections (probably a specilist abjurationist). Plus if Dorukon could invent a super rune epic spell, then why could'ent he invent a super own teh Lich spell. You got me, though this still shows Dorukon should have done better.

EDIT: Also your idea explains why Xykon was not destroyed forever by the Snarl when he got thrown in, his soul might have been destroyed before retreating to the phlactory(most likely spelled wrong). Which also supports your argument.

While on the Start of Darkness subject, anyone ever consider that Xykon's Strength score is really high for a sorceror?

He beat master Fyron in with a wizzy award, he was able to carry Lirian as a zombie, Right-Eye, and Redcloak while flying, he manage to pin Right-Eye to a wall with no hope of escape. Pretty damn strong for a spellcaster.

[Silverraptor]

While on the Start of Darkness subject, anyone ever consider that Xykon's Strength score is really high for a sorceror?

He beat master Fyron in with a wizzy award, he was able to carry Lirian as a zombie, Right-Eye, and Redcloak while flying, he manage to pin Right-Eye to a wall with no hope of escape. Pretty damn strong for a spellcaster.

Well sorcerers don't need to study for years to develop their magic, it comes naturally. They can divert their time instead to training and become proficient in all simple weapons and probably working out a bit.

[Pyron]

Well, it's kind of a retconny answer, and a bit too retconny for my tastes, but it is possible Redcloak stopped by Xykon's junk drawer on his way out of the dungeon. Said drawer might contain the headband, the black gem, and any other small goodies Xykon has both before and after the explosion. (And yes, we have no way of knowing if he does still have the gem, but the point is that if he can still have the headband, he can still have the gem.)

I propose another explanation could be that Xykon made a new headband focus for the Cloister spell. Assuming the headband is something straight forward, like a silver circlet with a gemstone worth +20,000 gp, then it seems likely.

[Tempeststurm]

But Dorukan didn't fight Xykon on his own terms, behind his defences and fully prepared. He fought on Xykon's terms, because he rushed out to save Lirian's soul. Besides, Dorukan might not have been preparing for this fight for a year. More likely was that he was content to ignore Xykon while he was outside and was confident enough in his epic defences to hold Xykon, and focus on, say, epic scrying for Lirian's soul. Dorukan wasn't prepared, and Xykon was.

[Studoku]

I propose another explanation could be that Xykon made a new headband focus for the Cloister spell. Assuming the headband is something straight forward, like a silver circlet with a gemstone worth +20,000 gp, then it seems likely.
I doubt it is. It's an item that is capable of casting an epic spell- I'm not even sure if creating them is even in the rules.

[The Blackbird]

But Dorukan didn't fight Xykon on his own terms, behind his defences and fully prepared. He fought on Xykon's terms, because he rushed out to save Lirian's soul. Besides, Dorukan might not have been preparing for this fight for a year. More likely was that he was content to ignore Xykon while he was outside and was confident enough in his epic defences to hold Xykon, and focus on, say, epic scrying for Lirian's soul. Dorukan wasn't prepared, and Xykon was.

But Dorukon specifically said "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived on my doorstep."

EDIT:
Well sorcerers don't need to study for years to develop their magic, it comes naturally. They can divert their time instead to training and become proficient in all simple weapons and probably working out a bit.

Ya but the average person, even if they work out can't carry 3 people at once. Though that explanation makes since. This was more of a comment wondering if other people noticed that, not another argument starter.
Also he snapped the neck of an epic level druid, thats pretty damn strong

[raphfrk]

I propose another explanation could be that Xykon made a new headband focus for the Cloister spell. Assuming the headband is something straight forward, like a silver circlet with a gemstone worth +20,000 gp, then it seems likely.

Maybe the phylactery rebuilds the body with all possessions intact?

[JJ48]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but aren't the gates made from both arcane AND divine magic? The Order of the Scribble traveled all over, and sealed the gates, using the arcane and divine magic. Only THEN did they disband and decided to PROTECT the gates in their own ways. The reason I point this out is that, while Xykon may have been able to easily defeat Dorukan, and been more than a match for his powers alone, the combined strength of Dorukan's and Lirian's magic on the gate was too much for him.

[Pyron]

I doubt it is. It's an item that is capable of casting an epic spell- I'm not even sure if creating them is even in the rules.

Correction.

:xykon: "It's either a lame hippie hairband, or the material focus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) for the most powerful abjuration ever."

[SoC175]

And finally, Xykon used energy drain on Durokon that prevented him from using high levels spells.
Which is also a disgrave for an epic character, since at epic level you simply are proteced against this spell. It's such a basic protection that you just have it as an epic level caster

But Dorukan didn't fight Xykon on his own terms, behind his defences and fully prepared. He fought on Xykon's terms, because he rushed out to save Lirian's soul. Besides, Dorukan might not have been preparing for this fight for a year. More likely was that he was content to ignore Xykon while he was outside and was confident enough in his epic defences to hold Xykon, and focus on, say, epic scrying for Lirian's soul. Dorukan wasn't prepared, and Xykon was.
But didn't need rush out, he was certain that she would endure it. He came out because he thought himself capable of dealing with Xykon, otherwise he could have waited a while longer since. Seeing where she was finally gave him a reason for going outside, but not an immediate reason. Now that he knew where she was, he could have prepared a day longer

[The Linker]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but aren't the gates made from both arcane AND divine magic? The Order of the Scribble traveled all over, and sealed the gates, using the arcane and divine magic. Only THEN did they disband and decided to PROTECT the gates in their own ways. The reason I point this out is that, while Xykon may have been able to easily defeat Dorukan, and been more than a match for his powers alone, the combined strength of Dorukan's and Lirian's magic on the gate was too much for him.

I don't think that's quite true.

From the last panel here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) we can see that Dorukan and Lirian worked together to constuct the gates -- but all the gates did was lock the rift and keep it from spreading. If it was left as a simple gate, it could be VERY easily destroyed, as a certain deranged paladin proved. The defenses on Dorukan's gate were all him, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) after the party had split up. That's what killed people, not the gate itself -- remember, Xykon wanted Elan to touch the gate so that the sigil would be deactivated, and Xykon and Redcloak would be able to manipulate the gate.

[Haven]

While on the Start of Darkness subject, anyone ever consider that Xykon's Strength score is really high for a sorceror?

He beat master Fyron in with a wizzy award, he was able to carry Lirian as a zombie, Right-Eye, and Redcloak while flying, he manage to pin Right-Eye to a wall with no hope of escape. Pretty damn strong for a spellcaster.

I assumed all that meant that he gained super-strength as part of his transformation into a lich. That's not how it works in D&D, I don't think, but the Giant's taken liberties with this sort of thing before. Or maybe he researched a 1 hour/level version of Bull's Strength, just so he could do crap like that all the time.