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View Full Version : Duskblade looking to get 9th level spells through multiclassing



Allerdyce
2009-04-12, 06:56 AM
It's all there on the tin. Basically, our party doesn't have an arcane caster. Well, except for me and the bard, and with us two and some cracker jacks, well we may have a magic decoder ring. So, basically, I'm thinking to take a couple of levels of Wizard and then switch up to Abjurant Champion and possibly (through some feats and what have you) Spellwarp Sniper. The DM's being a bit strict with prestige classing, so I'll have to justify my classes to him. So far Wizard's okay with him and I have tentative approval on the other two (he's a bit iffy on Sniper because I'll have to use some Tome of Battle feats to qualify for sneak attack).

Now, I could just take a level in rogue to get sneak attack damage that'd qualify, but as far as I can figure that'd put 9th level spells out of reach. As it is, with a tentative build I find I can get exactly one 9th level spell per day. So, anyone think they can help me tighten up the build or at least offer suggestions (either of the fluff or crunch variety) as to how to handle such a character?

Clarification on build so far: Third level Duskblade, 16 int, mostly been focusing on being one of our frontline fighters (we're a bit overloaded on divine casters). I'm away from sheet at the moment, but I can post the complete stats later if needed.

Neithan
2009-04-12, 07:08 AM
In any way, you need a wizard caster level of 17. That means you have to have at least 17 levels in classes other than duskblade.

Allerdyce
2009-04-12, 07:14 AM
That is essentially the plan. I'm looking for people to add in at least one more class that progresses spellcasting and something above base wizard BAB if possible that I could possibly find a way to justify.

Failing that, build advice is always good. He's pretty good at fighting, but I know magic like I know the GNP of Tanzania.

olentu
2009-04-12, 08:01 AM
Well it might be easier for the bard to get ninth level casting through sublime chord. Also since you have the phb 2 if you could use the character rebuilding stuff to change out one level of duskblade you could do something like Duskblade 2/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 which should let you cast as a level 17 wizard and give a BAB of 17.

If however you are stuck with the 3 levels of duskblade then without some looking through books nothing better comes to mind then going wizard and tossing on some abjurant champion unless for some reason you happen to have very good charisma but as a duskblade that seems unlikely.

In theory if you did have good cha on your character you could take 7 levels of bard (or bard 1 and enough levels of other classes to get level 3 spells and fulfill the skill requirements) and then go into sublime chord. But with the sublime chord having cha based casting this might not be so great if your cha is not so high.

Eldariel
2009-04-12, 08:01 AM
Heh. Duskblade 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3. The only problem is that Sublime Chord is a Charisma-based caster. You could build a Beholder Mage, I suppose, but that's just wrong in so many different ways.

But yeah, the above has BAB +17 and full Sublime Chord-casting on level 20. You miss out on full attack channeling though.

Allerdyce
2009-04-12, 08:51 AM
Well it might be easier for the bard to get ninth level casting through sublime chord. Also since you have the phb 2 if you could use the character rebuilding stuff to change out one level of duskblade you could do something like Duskblade 2/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 which should let you cast as a level 17 wizard and give a BAB of 17.

If however you are stuck with the 3 levels of duskblade then without some looking through books nothing better comes to mind then going wizard and tossing on some abjurant champion unless for some reason you happen to have very good charisma but as a duskblade that seems unlikely.

In theory if you did have good cha on your character you could take 7 levels of bard (or bard 1 and enough levels of other classes to get level 3 spells and fulfill the skill requirements) and then go into sublime chord. But with the sublime chord having cha based casting this might not be so great if your cha is not so high.

Pretty much, I'm stuck with the three levels of Duskblade. Basically, what it comes down to is we had a cleric who was thinking of going Mystic Theurge so I wasn't too worried about it, but we just got the crap kicked out of us by traps that would have been easily taken care of by even the lowliest of wizards, and he's since changed his mind. Our Bard is focusing on being a skillmonkey and thus is entirely uninterested (and as a pretty new player, would probably have problems with) being our arcane caster. So far, I figure I can take Abjurant and with some fiddling about with Tome of Battle could qualify for Spellwarp Sniper at the cost of two feats, I think. So basically I'm looking for something that has full caster progression for four more levels (I figure I'll probably need 3 levels of wizard to qualify for stuff) with mid to full BAB.

The real problem I'm having is trying to keep the number of PrCs to a minimum, since the DM is heavily frowning on dipping and is requiring an in character explanation for justification to take a class. So far, it looks like Abjurant Champion is fine, and Spellwarp Sniper isn't being glared at horribly. I think I might be able to convince him to allow a level of Spellsword (he's already stated that Abjurant won't work with Mage Armor) but even if I can pull that off, I'm still lost as to what would give full progression without hurting BAB too much. :/

Learnedguy
2009-04-12, 08:58 AM
Maybe you could simply do without? Talk with your DM so he remember to work his adventures around the fact that you don't got a Reality-violator in your party.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-12, 09:15 AM
Pretty much, I'm stuck with the three levels of Duskblade. Basically, what it comes down to is we had a cleric who was thinking of going Mystic Theurge so I wasn't too worried about it, but we just got the crap kicked out of us by traps that would have been easily taken care of by even the lowliest of wizards, and he's since changed his mind. Our Bard is focusing on being a skillmonkey and thus is entirely uninterested (and as a pretty new player, would probably have problems with) being our arcane caster. So far, I figure I can take Abjurant and with some fiddling about with Tome of Battle could qualify for Spellwarp Sniper at the cost of two feats, I think. So basically I'm looking for something that has full caster progression for four more levels (I figure I'll probably need 3 levels of wizard to qualify for stuff) with mid to full BAB.

The real problem I'm having is trying to keep the number of PrCs to a minimum, since the DM is heavily frowning on dipping and is requiring an in character explanation for justification to take a class. So far, it looks like Abjurant Champion is fine, and Spellwarp Sniper isn't being glared at horribly. I think I might be able to convince him to allow a level of Spellsword (he's already stated that Abjurant won't work with Mage Armor) but even if I can pull that off, I'm still lost as to what would give full progression without hurting BAB too much. :/
The best route? Convince the Bard to take Sublime Chord. You lose out on: Two skill points per level (not too bad), good Reflex, good BAB, some Bardic abilities. You gain: Full Spellcasting, a few more interesting bard songs.

Alternately, get your character killed, and come back with a Druid, going for at least one level of Contemplative (Complete Divine) and picking up the Magic domain (possibly trickery as well, if you're willing to lose six levels of wildshape progression). That gives you a melee character (the animal companion - you want either the Ape, or one of the cats), you have healing (full casting, healing spells on the list - make sure to pick up Natural Bond somewhere along the way), the ability to use wands without a roll (pick up utility spells - Spider Climb, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Fly, Extended Rope Trick), and lots of decent attacks (by Wildshaping into something with lots of attacks, and getting a decent Strength score from Wildshape, and your inherent 3/4's BAB).

ZeroNumerous
2009-04-12, 09:17 AM
Failing that, build advice is always good. He's pretty good at fighting, but I know magic like I know the GNP of Tanzania.

16.18 billion (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GNP+of+Tanzania&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=).

Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is another way to go. You only end up with 14 BAB, but you gain wizard 17/Duskblade 10 casting and the ability to sacrifice spells to metamagic others without increasing the spell level. If you add in Arcane Strike and other attack bonus buffs you'' make up the BAB loss. Certainly a very flexible gish.

EDIT: And it has the benefit of only requiring two prestige classes(and is entirely justifiable in character)

Chronos
2009-04-12, 10:25 AM
Note that with Ultimate Magus, you'd need Practiced Spellcaster to make sure you got full wizard casting out of it.

Pyron
2009-04-12, 10:35 AM
Clarification on build so far: Third level Duskblade, 16 int, mostly been focusing on being one of our frontline fighters (we're a bit overloaded on divine casters). I'm away from sheet at the moment, but I can post the complete stats later if needed.

When you say you're overloaded on divine casters: how many divine casters are there and what's the composition? Depending on the party's make up, each person can use their resources to overcome the lack of a dedicated spellcaster.

But, if you are willing to forsake Duskblade progression for arcane spells then I'm going to agree that Duskblade / Wizard / Abjurant Champion / Eldritch Knight is the best route to go. There's also Duskblade / Wizard / AC / Sacred Exocist. Both PrC combo can be justified in-character.

Although you won't get ninth level spells you might consider a Duskblade 16 / Mage of the Arcane Order 4. That'll give you a spellpool for levels 1-6, which can help a lot. But, it will be pretty feat intensive.

This final build is a little off-tangent, but a Duskblade x / Sandshaper 1 might give you a little arcane flexibility without sacrificing your duskblade progression too much.

Eldariel
2009-04-12, 11:48 AM
16.18 billion (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GNP+of+Tanzania&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=).

Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is another way to go. You only end up with 14 BAB, but you gain wizard 17/Duskblade 10 casting and the ability to sacrifice spells to metamagic others without increasing the spell level. If you add in Arcane Strike and other attack bonus buffs you'' make up the BAB loss. Certainly a very flexible gish.

EDIT: And it has the benefit of only requiring two prestige classes(and is entirely justifiable in character)

One problem: You need level 2 spells from Wizard to enter. Therefore you need either a level of PrC before Ultimate Magus, the only one you qualify for being Spellsword. Alternatively, you could use Precocious Apprentice, but with the given level progression, the feat is unavailable.

That said, this is a fairly solid build. You'll be using a lot of Quickened True Strikes, but beyond that you're fine (and you've got the fuel to cast the said True Strikes as long as you transfer True Strike to the Duskblade list - the drawback to this arrangement is that due to the low level casting you get in Duskblade, you'll have a severely impaired ability to metamagic Wizard-spells).


I'd consider Knowledge Devotion if going this road. You have all Knowledges in class as Wizard and Ultimate Magus, so it could be a very worthwhile buff and would slightly decrease your reliance in True Strike and Arcane Strike (it's Insight just as True Strike though so they don't stack - however, as it also offers a damage bonus and doesn't require spell levels to use, you should be ok).

You could also slam in Arcane Disciple: Anything With Divine Power (War out of Core-options) and provided you've got 14 Wis, get your BAB up to par (find a way to Persist it - failing that, you can always Quicken). But as Arcane Channeling is a Standard Action, the extra attacks frankly matter little to you. That said, +6 BAB does mean a minimum of 12 extra points of Power Attack (a combination of Strength, True Strike, Arcane Strike & Greater Magic Weapon (Wraithstrike if feeling evil) should handle hitting regardless so you can afford it much of the time), which is a pretty solid damage buff.


You do have Use Magic Device in class, but frankly, it's kinda waste of actions to UMD Divine Power here. That said, you should probably max Use Magic Device regardless - the powers it offers are just too handy (use Beads of Karma on arcane spells? Yes plz!).

Allerdyce
2009-04-12, 12:56 PM
When you say you're overloaded on divine casters: how many divine casters are there and what's the composition? Depending on the party's make up, each person can use their resources to overcome the lack of a dedicated spellcaster.

We currently have two druids, and one cleric. I forget which, but either the cleric or one of the druids (possibly both; the cleric seems to be dithering a lot) is going into summoning or binding things. The other druid seems to be focused on hitting things a lot, and doesn't seem to be too great at it so far, but that could just be his rolls. On top of all that, we have a paladin, but, y'know, not REALLY a caster. So tons of divine. I'd thought the whole arcane thing was settled with the cleric going theurge, but since he didn't, a lot of relatively minor things have really messed us up. Mostly trap doors and poor save rolls, but animate rope or feather fall or other basic spells would pretty much eliminate our current problems. The only reason I'm really trying to max out casting is because I'm pretty sure magic is only going to become more useful to us, since we seem to be cursed with very crappy rolling. Oh, and aside from the divine guys, there's me and the bard. Unfortunately, we all have ill-defined roles since the guy who is usually the leader of the party in most campaigns (the cleric) has decided not to and is playing a weird character to be weird, pretty much.


Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is another way to go. You only end up with 14 BAB, but you gain wizard 17/Duskblade 10 casting and the ability to sacrifice spells to metamagic others without increasing the spell level. If you add in Arcane Strike and other attack bonus buffs you'' make up the BAB loss. Certainly a very flexible gish.

EDIT: And it has the benefit of only requiring two prestige classes(and is entirely justifiable in character)

I'd considered something like this, and basically I came here to see if I could do better with the help of the playground. Although yours definitely is more elegant than my initial idea of going that route was.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 07:39 PM
That said, you should probably max Use Magic Device regardless - the powers it offers are just too handy (use Beads of Karma on arcane spells? Yes plz!).Due to the peculiar wording of the String of Prayer Beads, I don't think you actually can UMD them. They don't trigger off of being able to cast divine spells (which UMD can emulate), but on having actually cast a divine spell (which UMD can't emulate).

On the other hand, if you have an overload of divine casters in your party, it shouldn't be too hard to bum an Imbue with Spell Ability off of one of them, via which you could cast a divine spell and wake up your prayer beads. And the description of the prayer beads doesn't say how long they stay woken up once you've cast the required divine spell, so you could argue that it remains usable by you indefinitely.

tyckspoon
2009-04-12, 08:38 PM
On the other hand, if you have an overload of divine casters in your party, it shouldn't be too hard to bum an Imbue with Spell Ability off of one of them, via which you could cast a divine spell and wake up your prayer beads. And the description of the prayer beads doesn't say how long they stay woken up once you've cast the required divine spell, so you could argue that it remains usable by you indefinitely.

I don't think it requires any particular argument; it's how the text reads. You have to cast a divine spell to receive the knowledge of how to activate the beads, but once you've done that you just have to be "capable of casting divine spells", which as you noted is one of the things you can explicitly fake with UMD.

There's also the Activate Blindly option, which is a DC 25 check to randomly fake a prerequisite that you don't know about. Success on that would arguably trip the 'cast a divine spell' clause and let you know that you need divine spellcasting to use the bead, which you would then UMD normally. If not, well, you'll just have to repeat the check every time you want to use the Bead, which shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as your minimum UMD check is 15 or better (to avoid the mishap chance.)

Waspinator
2009-04-12, 08:47 PM
If your DM won't let you retrain to take the most efficient method, you could just make a new character. If your current guy can either get killed or find some excuse to leave the party, replacing him with a full-blown wizard might be the easiest remaining option.

ZeroNumerous
2009-04-12, 09:01 PM
Alternatively, you could use Precocious Apprentice, but with the given level progression, the feat is unavailable.

That's easily fixed by staggering via Duskblade 2/Wizard 1/Duskblade +1/Wizard +1/...

Alternatively, drop off a level of Abjurant Champion for a level of Spellsword, converting the level progression to Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 4. Same end result, but you just have to spend a feat on Practiced Spellcaster(Duskblade).

EDIT:


Note that with Ultimate Magus, you'd need Practiced Spellcaster to make sure you got full wizard casting out of it.

Not true, actually. Ultimate Magus boosts the lowest caster level, unless two classes are even. With Duskblade 3/Wizard 2 and Precocious Apprentice to qualify, you end up with Duskblade 3/Wizard 3 at Ultimate Magus 4, which is the final +1 for lowest so you're allowed to pick Wizard. The build progress emulates Practiced Spellcaster without having to actually need the feat.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-12, 09:21 PM
Duskblade is a solid class in its own role, especially if you take Arcane Strike. Trying to multiclass into what you think the party needs will probably end you with a character who isn't very good at either role. I would build your character the way you want to, and have someone get Leadership for a Wizard cohort if necessary. Between the Druids and the Cleric, your party should have plenty of high-level spellcasting already. That party will probably be able to handle just about anything even without an arcane spellcaster.

Thurbane
2009-04-12, 09:28 PM
Duskblade 9/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10?

...although, if you're already loaded up on divine casters...

Pyron
2009-04-12, 10:46 PM
I would build your character the way you want to, and have someone get Leadership for a Wizard cohort if necessary.

I agree, this is the best course of action. Get a cohort wizard to play the role of buff and support then it'll be a win-win.

Tensu
2009-04-12, 10:56 PM
like I know the GNP of Tanzania.

12.73 billion dollars (when checked in 2005)

there. know you know everything about magic save any large changes in the last four years.

Chronos
2009-04-12, 11:49 PM
Quoth tyckspoon:
I don't think it requires any particular argument; it's how the text reads. You have to cast a divine spell to receive the knowledge of how to activate the beads, but once you've done that you just have to be "capable of casting divine spells", which as you noted is one of the things you can explicitly fake with UMD.Reading over it again, you appear to be correct: The casting a spell bit does not enable a character to use them; it lets the character know how to use them. So an "activate blindly" UMD check would still work even without a spell. And I also hadn't noticed the "must be able to cast divine spells" requirement further down in the text, so just having received an Imbue at some point in the past would not be sufficient to allow continued usage of the item (though it would bump the UMD check down from "activate blindly" to "emulate class feature").

Almn
2009-04-25, 07:58 AM
Have you looked at jade phoenix mage? I believe that it is a class that grants spellcasting and manuvers, although I don't remember any more than that. And it can explode, which adds to the awesome.

Frosty
2009-04-26, 12:48 AM
How about dipping a level into Prestige Bard, and then taking Sublime Chord? That'll get you 9th level casting.

RMS Oceanic
2009-04-26, 01:37 AM
I have a semi-related question: Outside of Gestalt, taking the equivalent of 11 cleric levels and Arcane Disciple (Destruction), which my DM has ruled won't work, is there a simple way for a Duskblade to learn Harm? I think it and the Inflict spells make good channel targets.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 02:15 AM
Thread necromancy?



I have a semi-related question: Outside of Gestalt, taking the equivalent of 11 cleric levels and Arcane Disciple (Destruction), which my DM has ruled won't work, is there a simple way for a Duskblade to learn Harm? I think it and the Inflict spells make good channel targets.

Arcane Disciple can't get Harm with a Duskblade because you only get up to 5th level spells. You could try Ur-Priest 5+ or even Divine Crusader 5+ with the right domain, both from Complete Divine. If you're going to multiclass for a strong touch spell, you may as well go something like Duskblade 13/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 6 and get Otto's Irresistible Dance, which with Whirlwind Attack and a spiked chain will disable every opponent within reach and they'll even provoke an AoO every round.

Fishy
2009-04-26, 02:28 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your party's problem is 'stepping on trapdoors and failing reflex saves', shouldn't you ask the bard to take on level of Rogue?

Yes, Celerity/Timestop/Forcecage is certainly *one* way around getting over a hole in the floor...

Thurbane
2009-04-26, 04:48 AM
Thread necromancy?
I don't know if I'd call a little under 2 weeks necromancy...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 05:10 AM
It wasn't on the first page any more, it had been twelve days since anyone posted in it. You have to go to page six to find a thread that nobody's posted in since twelve days ago. I think that should definitely count as necromancy.

only1doug
2009-04-26, 05:42 AM
It wasn't on the first page any more, it had been twelve days since anyone posted in it. You have to go to page six to find a thread that nobody's posted in since twelve days ago. I think that should definitely count as necromancy.

Nope, someone might have had it on a watch list of posts and not had a chance to respond sooner, thread necromancy is defined in by The Revised and Expanded Rules of Posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=30&a=1) as follows
Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from “the dead.” If a thread has fallen to page three and hasn’t been posted in for a month and a half, don’t post to it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.

Bluebeard
2009-04-26, 04:32 PM
With 2 Druids, a Cleric, a Bard and a Duskblade, I'd think the party was more than fine.
Druids are fine in the 'God' or 'Controller' role.
Duskblades can do plenty of damage on their own.
The Bard can turn Summoned monsters and Paladins into real threats.
And two full casters are left to do whatever it is they want to do.
4 members of the party can use wands of Cure Light or Lesser Vigor without a roll and the Paladin has free healing daily,

For 9th level Wizard spells, I'd Second Pylon's SE recommendation.
Duskblade 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is a pretty solid Gish: CL 17, BA 16, good HD all around, synergistic casting/melee abilities and Intelligence as both casting stats. In a party so centered on divine casters, SE fluff requirements shouldn't be hard to get.