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Salt_Crow
2009-04-13, 02:41 AM
Hello fellow Playgrounders- I was surfing around the net when I found the Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a).

I mean, seriously, what's the deal with their CR? Say, an ancient steel dragon casts as a 19th-level sorcerer and has physical abilities on par with any other true dragons- with CR of 15. So it's saying it's easier to handle than a 19th-level human sorcerer (CR 19), even though it has all the abilities of the human except being more powerful.

Hey wait, why don't we give him Polymorph spell-like ability? So at juvenile age (CR 5) it's polymorphing into firbolgs and wartrolls.

Is there any existing fix to this? I mean, this article's over five years old!

I'm just wondering why I haven't seen it that often along with '12-headed hydras' and 'that damn crab'.

Much appreciation to anyone who could shed a light on this conundrum :)

BlueWizard
2009-04-13, 03:44 AM
These are awesome! :smallcool:

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-13, 03:59 AM
Reprinted in Dragon #339, as the Greyhawk Dragon. CR of an ancient Greyhawk Dragon, casting as a 19th level sorcerer: 20. It still has polymorph as a wyrmling up, but seriously. It's a dragon. The benefit of polymorph is greatly reduced when you already have an absurd fly speed, ridiculous natural armor and lots of natural attacks. Juvenile CR is 8.

Enjoy the slightly less ridiculous version?

Salt_Crow
2009-04-13, 04:12 AM
Ah, thank you Tam O'Connor! It looks much better now :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-13, 04:52 AM
Challenge Ratings: Wyrmling 2; very young 4; young 4; juvenile 5; young adult 7; adult 8; mature adult 11; old 12; very old 13; ancient 15; wyrm 16; great wyrm 18.
There's no way both those age categories are at the same CR, it's obviously a typo. Everything from Juvenile up should be moved down one category, to be young 5; young adult 8; adult 11; mature adult 12; old 13; very old 15; ancient 16; wyrm 18; and great wyrm would probably be 20 or 21. Even then, it's an extremely powerful and resilient spellcaster at a much lower than normal CR.

bosssmiley
2009-04-13, 05:15 AM
All dragon CRs are 2-4 below what they should really be. Readjust accordingly.

The b0rked CR is supposedly something to do with 3E dragons being designed as a 'nigh impossible' encounter for equal CR parties, instead of merely a 'challenging' one (i.e.: everything else in the MM).

I've heard various explanations for where this flawed design choice originated:
dragon fanboi-ism in the 3E design staff
a belief in dragons as game-enders inherited from the M:tG card game (of all places!)
WotC staffers being confused by what the CR system means ("math is haaaaard!")

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-04-13, 05:26 AM
Nah. Most dragons as given are CR-appropriate for a good but non-optimised party when played intelligently. Because equal CR means you have to spend 20% to 25% of your resources to win. So a dragon facing a cleric, a wizard, a rogue and a fighter must do the following;

1) Require 20% of a wizard's and cleric's spells to defeat. That's at least 5 spells from each.
2) Be able to soak up 3-4 attacks from both rogue and fighter in addition to those spells.
3) Be able to take out 1/4 of the party's HP before dying.

And if your group optimises...

Morty
2009-04-13, 05:27 AM
Dragon fanboi-ism in the 3E design staff


Dragon-fanboyism is an inherent part of D&D design, it seems.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-13, 07:24 AM
Gee... it's not like the system is called Dungeon and Dragons or anything, right? XD

Oslecamo
2009-04-13, 07:32 AM
Dragon-fanboyism is an inherent part of D&D design, it seems.

And what's the problem with that? Dragons are suposed to be the ultimate enemies in D&D, the big bad monster awaiting at the end of the cave that'll rape the party unless they're playing really seriously.

If there's something I don't like about dragons, it's when they're depicted as just another mook wich happens to breath energy but really doesn't give more fight than the others. Dragons are one of the mythical iconic monsters of all times, and they deserve to be fanboyed.

(altough indeed the steel dragon it's under CRd, but hey, reserve it against those super otpimized parties)

RebelRogue
2009-04-13, 07:34 AM
And what's the problem with that? Dragons are suposed to be the ultimate enemies in D&D, the big bad monster awaiting at the end of the cave that'll rape the party unless they're playing really seriously.
Hmm... I guess that explains all those half-dragons! :smallwink:

However, I've sometimes wondered, that the CR was set slightly low to compensate for the massive treasure hoards that dragons tend to have. Pretty silly, but it's crossed my mind.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-13, 07:37 AM
I really don't want to know too much about how half-dragon black pudding was made or something. Obviously playing with one's food has more than one meaning in a draconic society. Yech :smallyuk: