[Basic D&D] Elves and immunity to ghoul paralysis

[Zenos]

So, my brother was reading through the red basic D&D book, and then he started wondering why exactly elves have immunity to paralysis from specifically ghouls, so I decided to ask the forum if they have any knowledge or opinion on why the elf class in Basic D&D has the ability.

[Tam_OConnor]

The explanation I've heard (over at RPG.net somewhere) is that swarms of cheap ghouls were destroying much higher cost elven units, so elves gained immunity to ghoul paralysis.

[Eldariel]

It's really that simple. Elves were being utterly destroyed by the undead, so they were made immune to the thing that was destroying them.

[avr]

There was some fluff added later about the paralysis being caused by a supernaturally caused fear of death, which didn't bother elves because their near immortality gave them a different perspective to short-lived humans etc.

[Ganurath]

If that's the case, then the paralysis shouldn't work on Elans either. I prefer the paralysis being more tied to the "slumber of the grave." It's emphasis on slumber with ghouls, which is why elves are immune, but it's emphasis on grave with ghasts which is why they can use it on elves.

[Chronos]

If that's the case, then the paralysis shouldn't work on Elans either.Except that elans didn't exist until many years after that fluff was added, and by the time elans did exist, the reason elves were immune to ghouls was just "they've always been that way".

[Eikre]

Not to mention, Elans don't sleep either.

[chiasaur11]

The explanation I've heard (over at RPG.net somewhere) is that swarms of cheap ghouls were destroying much higher cost elven units, so elves gained immunity to ghoul paralysis.

Standard Elf.

Can't cut it in the real world, so they get uncle Gary to write a cheap way out so they don't have to learn how to work for a living.

[Matthew]

According to Gygax:



When did ghouls become Undead? (http://www.enworld.org/forum/3967138-post13.html)

When I devised the ghoul for the D&D game it was most assuredly with non-living energization, that is undead status, that enabled these creatures to exist and hunger for the flesh of dead humans and their ilk.

The principal motivation for classifying them as undead was to have a progressive level of such monsters--skeletons, zombies, ghouls, etc.

IMO, merely eating human flesh is quite insufficient to alter one to become a ghoul. Otherwise, many a remote tribe of savage aboriginies would be ghouls, not humans.

The negative energy of the ghoul is the rason for its paralyzing ability. Elves, having great positive energy, are thus immune to the effect.

The first appearance of this ability is in the OD&D (1974) ghoul description, rather than the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement, which lends credence to the idea that it was introduced post facto. I have a niggling feeling, though, that there might be an analogue in Tolkien somewhere.

[Halaster]

I think when Aragorn goes to face the Dead Men of Dunharg (was that he name?) in Return of the King, everyone is scared stiff, except for Legolas, who says something along the lines that he doesn't fear the ghosts of men. Perhaps that inspired the D&D immunity.

[mostlyharmful]

If that's the case, then the paralysis shouldn't work on Elans either.

meh, Elans are rebooted humans so it's understandable if lots of the base programing stuck and there's little more hardwired into us than the survival instinct. Elves have always been near immortal so they wouldn't have any left over junk in their brains about fearing death.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I think when Aragorn goes to face the Dead Men of Dunharg (was that he name?) in Return of the King, everyone is scared stiff, except for Legolas, who says something along the lines that he doesn't fear the ghosts of men. Perhaps that inspired the D&D immunity.

Pretty much the only connection I've got, too. Tolkien elves are "immune" to undead -> D&D elves are immune to ghoul paralysis. It makes pretty much zero sense, but there you have it.

[InaVegt]

Pretty much the only connection I've got, too. Tolkien elves are "immune" to undead -> D&D elves are immune to ghoul paralysis. It makes pretty much zero sense, but there you have it.

Perhaps Gygax et al originally considered ghoul paralysis a fear effect. (I know fear can result in paralysis) With elves not being afraid of undead, they are immune to the effect?

[Zenos]

Thanks for the replies. I did have thoughts about it being because elves were kinda linked to good stuff, although I didn't think about positive energies.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Perhaps Gygax et al originally considered ghoul paralysis a fear effect. (I know fear can result in paralysis) With elves not being afraid of undead, they are immune to the effect?

Huh. Yeah, actually, I guess that makes sense. Middle Earth undead have a sort of "aura of fear", but what really seems to get people is their touch - it numbs you with both cold and fear. Elves were immune to this, being immortal (it basically played off the fear of death of humans and other mortal races, I guess).

In fact, since it's clear that ghoul paralysis is not based on any venom or the like, that's pretty much the only option. And making elves immune to the attacks of more powerful undead - wraiths, wights, and so on - would have been both an unfair advantage, and a bit useless in Basic D&D when you were capped at level... er, what was it again, 6 for most classes?

[Thoughtbot360]

Huh. Yeah, actually, I guess that makes sense. Middle Earth undead have a sort of "aura of fear", but what really seems to get people is their touch - it numbs you with both cold and fear. Elves were immune to this, being immortal (it basically played off the fear of death of humans and other mortal races, I guess).

In fact, since it's clear that ghoul paralysis is not based on any venom or the like, that's pretty much the only option. And making elves immune to the attacks of more powerful undead - wraiths, wights, and so on - would have been both an unfair advantage, and a bit useless in Basic D&D when you were capped at level... er, what was it again, 6 for most classes?

well...I'm not sure what you mean by "basic" D&D. You mean the original three box in the white box, or AD&D edition 1?

However, if its the OD&D whitebox, I can report that the maximum levels are as such (Halflings: maxed out at level 4, Dwarves: level 6, Elves: level 4 fighting-man and level 8 magic-user, Humans: by class, but even the smallest class had 9 levels.)

[Tsotha-lanti]

The Basic / Expert / etc. series, which I believe was the topic here. (I have them in Finnish, so I don't recall which way the Master/Hero or whatever go in English.)

[FoE]

So, my brother was reading through the red basic D&D book, and then he started wondering why exactly elves have immunity to paralysis from specifically ghouls, so I decided to ask the forum if they have any knowledge or opinion on why the elf class in Basic D&D has the ability.

Because they're better than you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter)

[charl]

Basic usually refers to the basic rules set of original dnd, that is the red box. This game has a level cap of 3 for every class (and race). The expert, master and immortal boxes came with rules for higher levels, though, and basic was as far as I can tell always intended to be supplemented by those once the PCs reached level 3.

[hamishspence]

Basic got rereleased as the Black Box (5th level cap) with the big red fiend on the front.

[charl]

Basic got rereleased as the Black Box (5th level cap) with the big red fiend on the front.

The "Classic Dungeons and Dragons" yes. But that's an imposter. Basic is and always has been the old red box. People claiming anything else are evil (or perhaps I should say chaotic?) and should be ignored. :smallbiggrin:

[Tsotha-lanti]

What a delightful side-track - I think I'll walk along it.

Yeah, red box. Cover art is an incredibly Elmore dude in a scale shirt/cuirass and huge horned helm - the archetypal D&D fighter of the day - fighting a red dragon over a mound of treasure, or something.

All the other boxed sets / books feature a fighter and a dragon, I think. I forget what Expert has, but the third one had a knight in blued steel and a green dragon? And the fourth had a royal-looking fighter with a big beard riding a golden dragon? (Well, probably gold. I think the whole picture is all gold and black...)

[charl]

There are two expert boxes. The earlier one has a wizard on it (not illustrated by Elmore). The later expert does indeed have a fighter, this one on a horse, fighting a red dragon with a sword and a shield. Immortal has some kind of almost-naked magic-user firing a ray of something, with a red dragon looking smug in the background.

[Thrud]

Basic usually refers to the basic rules set of original dnd, that is the red box. This game has a level cap of 3 for every class (and race). The expert, master and immortal boxes came with rules for higher levels, though, and basic was as far as I can tell always intended to be supplemented by those once the PCs reached level 3.

Hey, don't forget Companion which came in between master and immortal. Ahh, those were the days. At the end of the game you literally were a God, with divine abilities, instead of just being godlike, which is somehow so much less fulfilling.

:smallbiggrin:

[charl]

Hey, don't forget Companion which came in between master and immortal. Ahh, those were the days. At the end of the game you literally were a God, with divine abilities, instead of just being godlike, which is somehow so much less fulfilling.

:smallbiggrin:

Tsoth already mentioned it and described the cover: green dragon and fighter. ;)

And yeah, the days of old D&D were so much fun. No bs, just adventuring. :smallbiggrin:

[RebelRogue]

For the record, the demihuman level caps were Dwarf 12, Elf 10, Halfling 8. After that they gained Attack Ranks instead of levels.

And yes, the reason for Elf immunity to ghoul paralysis given was indeed that the effect was based on the victims fear of death.

[SimperingToad]

According to Gygax:


The first appearance of this ability is in the OD&D (1974) ghoul description, rather than the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement, which lends credence to the idea that it was introduced post facto. I have a niggling feeling, though, that there might be an analogue in Tolkien somewhere.

There is, and it took a bit of remembering and looking to find it. It appears when Frodo was in his recovery at Rivendell, speaking to Gandalf.

"...And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power."

However, given the obscure reference and the fact that Gary was not overfond of Tolkien's writing, I think it more likely it was either from mythology or his own devising that the ability was introduced.

[clockwork warrior]

if it is a fear thing, than shouldnt paladins of any race become immune? and for that matter, shouldnt they give a bonus to there comrades against it?

[Tsotha-lanti]

It's not quite the same thing, if you go by the Tolkien Elf logic. It's an overpowering physical fear and cold, not fear in your head; it's based on an essential awareness of mortality rather than on any fear of death.

[charl]

if it is a fear thing, than shouldnt paladins of any race become immune? and for that matter, shouldnt they give a bonus to there comrades against it?

There were no paladins in basic.

[Tsotha-lanti]

There were no paladins in basic.

Paladin was a 9th (10th?) level option for Lawful fighters. Neutrals had Knight, Chaotics had... Anti-Paladin?

I forget, it's been years.

[Blue Paladin]

Paladin was a 9th (10th?) level option for Lawful fighters. Neutrals had Knight, Chaotics had... Anti-Paladin?

I forget, it's been years.I'm pretty sure it was Avenger. And yeah, it's been years...

[SimperingToad]

In Tolkien's Middle-Earth, the Undying Lands were known to many of the elder elves as a place they once lived, and death in battle or grief (as the only ways they could die) would send their spirit back to a place they already had been. So, they naturally would have no fear of death, as they knew where they would go.

How the effect of a ghoul (not known as far as I can recall in Middle-Earth) gained it's paralyzing effect and lack thereof on elves I would have to defer to Matthew's quote from Gary.