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ScionofImperius
2009-04-13, 07:37 PM
i need a plus 2 template for a monk, that can be combined with githzerai. I am currently considering half fey, as weird as that is, but am looking for something a little better. thanks in advance

monty
2009-04-13, 07:38 PM
How about Dark (the Lords of Madness version)? It can make you go crazy fast, among other things.

ScionofImperius
2009-04-13, 07:43 PM
what template is dark? it is in LoM?

Keld Denar
2009-04-13, 08:13 PM
Dark is in Tome of Magic and is +1. Shadow is in Lords of Madness (pg 167-168) Both are good. Shadow is REALLY good.

I love Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis, the Book of Bad Latin) as a +2 template. It has good all around ability buffs, the Undead subtype, natural weapons, and a ZOMGTASTIC paralysis attack that is based off your Cha. Great for any high Cha character like a Hexblade or evil Pally variant.

monty
2009-04-13, 08:29 PM
Dark is in Tome of Magic and is +1. Shadow is in Lords of Madness (pg 167-168) Both are good. Shadow is REALLY good.

Shadow, that's the one I was thinking of. My mistake.

Chronos
2009-04-13, 08:30 PM
So far as I know, there are five templates which are generally considered to be worth their LA:
Dark (Tome of Magic): Huge stealth bonuses, including Hide in Plain Sight, for 1 LA.
Feral (Savage Species): Fast healing and natural attacks, among other benefits, for 1 LA.
Mineral Warrior (Races of Stone): DR/adamantium and a big Con boost, among other benefits, for 1 LA
Half-Minotaur (Dragon issue 313): Large size and insane stat boosts, for 1 LA. This is generally suspected to be in error.
Phrenic (Expanded Psionics Handbook): Power resistance and a bunch of psi-like abilities that scale with level, for 2 LA.

Shadow probably would be worth it, but Dark gives you close to the same benefits for half the price. And Phrenic unfortunately can't be added to a creature that's already psionic, so Githzerai is out.

wadledo
2009-04-13, 08:33 PM
I'd consider Gravetouched Ghoul as one too, seeing as how it's possibly the best template for making sentient undead ever.

DownwardSpiral
2009-04-13, 08:42 PM
Saint? In book of exalted deeds? Unless you don't like the whole lawful stupid bit. But your dm might relax it a weeeeeee bit.

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 08:54 PM
Saint? In book of exalted deeds? Unless you don't like the whole lawful stupid bit. But your dm might relax it a weeeeeee bit.
Probably the strongest +2 template ever printed. Restrictions ("must never ever ever have done anything evil ever") are rather harsh. Still, it's omg-good.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 09:00 PM
Probably the strongest +2 template ever printed. Restrictions ("must never ever ever have done anything evil ever") are rather harsh. Still, it's omg-good.Eh, not really. There's ways of breaking it, but generally you get similar benefits from class levels, plus, you know, HP.

DownwardSpiral
2009-04-13, 09:04 PM
Eh, not really. There's ways of breaking it, but generally you get similar benefits from class levels, plus, you know, HP.

True. Although not a lot beats it. But yeah, you could get more from class levels. Although he asked for a +2 template so eh. =D

ScionofImperius
2009-04-13, 09:12 PM
DM just nixed saint. perhaps more background information is necessary. He is running a game in which all characters must have a plus 4 level adjustment, and a total level of 11. there are 7 or 8 players, so core should be covered. i want something interesting, not just a half celestial. I started with half fae githzerai for the plus 8 to dex, but most of the fae abilities are overcome by the class i chose (monk). Any suggestions?

DownwardSpiral
2009-04-13, 09:28 PM
From Chronos,

Half-Minotaur (Dragon issue 313): Large size and insane stat boosts, for 1 LA. This is generally suspected to be in error

I'd suggest this. Seems you should be alright not taking hits, considering there should be 7 other people. Might need a bit of help in the damage department I assume?

Also.....half fey half minotaur. You cannot unsee.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-13, 09:28 PM
It'll definitely be said again, but are you completely set on the monk as a class? It honestly is a very weak class, and its archtype as the unarmed kung-fu master warrior is done better by both the Psychic Warrior and the Swordsage.

woodenbandman
2009-04-13, 09:41 PM
I say go for Feral. Great wisdom boost, good strength boost, natural weapons, scaling abilities, lots of extra jazz. if you add Dark onto that from Tome of Magic, you have a superfast superstrong monk who might actually turn out to be useful.

Chronos
2009-04-13, 09:46 PM
Also.....half fey half minotaur. You cannot unsee.But if you're part fey, you can unseelie.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-13, 09:50 PM
Shadow Creature is exceptionally good, though you may want to go with two +1 LA templates instead. Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is just amazing, considering the DR, burrow speed, and natural armor bonus, which help offset the slight Wisdom penalty. Other strong +1 LA templates include Draconic from the Draconomicon, Blooded and Shadow-Walker from Unapproachable East, and Feral from Savage Species.

Maltore
2009-04-13, 10:57 PM
I have always really liked the winged template for my monks (Savage Species).

Your fly speed is your land speed +20, so your monk gets even faster, your manoeuverability is perfect (if not, you're doing something wrong with your stats), so you can hover in the air while flurrying, and you get +4 dex and +2 wis.

I know, not the most "OMG-über!" +2 LA template, but definitely nice.

Draken
2009-04-13, 11:45 PM
I prefer insectile myself. For +2 LA you get Four extra arms, tremorsense, all-around vision, darkvision, the aberration type, a climb speed and the same ability score adjustments as winged (that is, +4 Dex and +2 Wis).

I think this one would be cool on a monk.

Having six arms can be all sorts of twisted.

Typewriter
2009-04-13, 11:55 PM
Theres a template called shade from forgotten realms that has two listings.

One of them is in the main book, and the other is in races of faerun or some such. One lists it as +2 and all it's powers only work in the dark. The other lists it as +4 but lists no restrictions.

It gets:
SR
Small stat boosts
Shadow Jump 300 ft/2 rounds @ level 8
Invisibility at will
Light control w/in 100 ft.
Bonus to speed
+4 deflection AC
+2 to hit and damage
Fast healing
Shadow image 3x day (mirror image)
Teleport or planeshift 1/day @ level 12
+4 luck to all saves

As I said most, if not all only work in the shadows if you go by the rules from the main faerun book, and it's listed as LA+2

Forgotten Realms campaign setting page 314

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-14, 01:37 AM
Another nifty +1 template is Lolth Touched from MM4 I. Nets you immunity to fear (always sexy) and +6 to STR and +6 to CON (helps your MAD).

Although if you want to pile on the crazy, you could go Half-Giant (+1 LA) for psionic power points and go psychic warrior as was mentioned above. You even get Powerful build out of it. A Dark Feral Lolthtouched Halfgiant Psychic warrior would be scary.

Or go Dark (+1 Tome of Magic) Feral (+1) Lolthtouched (+1) Chameleon (+1 Underdark) Whispergnome (+0 Races of Stone) unarmed swordsage (Tome of Battle) and NOBODY WOULD EVER SEE YOU! Thats at least a +30 bonus to hide at level 1 (+4 from small, +4 from Whispergnome, +8 from Dark, +10 from Chameleon, +4 from Lolthtouched). From Feral and Dark you'd increase your speed. Needless to say, go shadowhand. I think the ninja like stuff you could pull would make up for the decrease damage of your small gnomish hands. Use a ki channeling weapon anyway.

Keld Denar
2009-04-14, 01:57 AM
Feral Mineral Warrior Anything Monk2/PsyWarX with Monastic Training and Tashalatora (from Secrets of Sarlona) would be freakin amazing. Yea, the wisdom hit would suck, but you could make it up with the other +2 LA you have coming. The claws you get + Claws of the Beast augmented + Vampiric Claws + Expansion...RAWR.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-14, 01:57 AM
Half vampire from Libris Mortis is meh, unless you're evil. Then take blood-drain and it's better.
But you can't be an outsider (which should exclude tieflings, genasi, etc).
There's several versions of half-ogre floating around that you might want to look at.
Feral is ungodly powerful I think.
The elemental templates from I think it's Manual of the Planes (Earth, fire wind water, wood, shadow) are all +1 or +2.

SoD
2009-04-14, 02:03 AM
Another nifty +1 template is Lolth Touched from MM4 I. Nets you immunity to fear (always sexy) and +6 to STR and +6 to CON (helps your MAD).


Only you can't apply it to a monk, as you apply it to any non-good non-lawful creature, and it becomes CE.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-14, 06:11 AM
White Dragonspawn from the Dragonlance setting is good for anything, +1LA for wings, cold immunity, breath weapon, minor stat boosts, +7 Nat Armour and a exploding death rattle, you wind up mindbound to a big bad dragon but that can be fun too. Oh, and a level of Sorc casting which is damn useful for a monk.

Typewriter
2009-04-14, 07:16 AM
I personally no longer allow feral in my campaigns. I did away with that book completely as I'm fairly certain it was considered a 3.0 book. Isn't that why it doesn't add up to MM entries, and it still uses the old methodology for DR?

Starscream
2009-04-14, 07:45 AM
Also.....half fey half minotaur. You cannot unsee.


http://f.imagehost.org/0863/pixietaur.jpg

Sorry. Now accepting therapy bills.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 09:21 AM
I personally no longer allow feral in my campaigns. I did away with that book completely as I'm fairly certain it was considered a 3.0 book. Isn't that why it doesn't add up to MM entries, and it still uses the old methodology for DR?

Yeah, Savage Species is 3.0. Feral is also "broken" in the sense that the bonuses are way too high for +1 LA for melee characters (and obviously useless to casters) - I've run a Feral character in my game before, but I cut most bonuses in half and that didn't hurt him at all.

monty
2009-04-14, 09:46 AM
I personally no longer allow feral in my campaigns. I did away with that book completely as I'm fairly certain it was considered a 3.0 book. Isn't that why it doesn't add up to MM entries, and it still uses the old methodology for DR?

Not to say that you're necessarily wrong for banning it, but by RAW at least, 3.0 materials are still valid unless they were updated in a later book.

Draken
2009-04-14, 09:55 AM
Half vampire from Libris Mortis is meh, unless you're evil. Then take blood-drain and it's better.
But you can't be an outsider (which should exclude tieflings, genasi, etc).
There's several versions of half-ogre floating around that you might want to look at.
Feral is ungodly powerful I think.
The elemental templates from I think it's Manual of the Planes (Earth, fire wind water, wood, shadow) are all +1 or +2.

No. They adjust CR by +1 or +2.

The elemental creature templates in the manual of the planes do not list Level Adjustment, but they were reprinted in the Planar Handbook somewhere else (just checked the planar handbook and didn't find them), and there they have level adjustments that go from +2 (Wood) to +5 (Air), most are +4.

Darth Stabber
2009-04-14, 10:30 AM
Chameleon Template + Caster = Win.
Why? Reach on melee touch attacks that's why.
Go Psywar, Psywar has a ton of powers that are delivered via weapon (your tongue counts) and go to town

That gives me an Idea for my next gestalt. Halfling Chameleon Template/Dark Template/Dread Necro//rogue = negative energy sneak attacking tongue + massive hiding ability + tongue delivered debuffs.

monty
2009-04-14, 10:48 AM
Chameleon Template + Caster = Win.
Why? Reach on melee touch attacks that's why.

But it also loses you a caster level, which is bad. Unless you're playing gestalt, or in a case like this where LA is required, there's better ways to get reach.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-14, 12:26 PM
Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior would be solid, muscular, stone-fleshed win. Added to a Githzerai it would have the following adjustments:

Large Humanoid (Earth)
Str +14, Dex +4, Con +10, Int -6 (minimum 1), Wis -2, Cha -2
Speed: 40
AC: +7 natural
Natural Attacks: Gore 1d8
Darkvision 60
Scent
DR 8/adamantine
Cunning: +4 to escape Maze spells and automatically know which direction is north
Earth Strike once/day from Mineral Warrior
Githzerai natural psionics, power resistance, psi-like abilities, languages, and favored class
+2 Search, Spot, Listen
Track as a bonus feat
LA +4

monty
2009-04-14, 12:42 PM
I don't remember all the stats off the top of my head, so you may be right, but are you remembering to factor in the adjustments for the size increase? That alone is +8 Strength, among other things.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-14, 12:46 PM
I included the medium to large adjustments, Str is +8 size, +4 half-minotaur, +2 mineral warrior, for +14 total. I've houseruled half-minotaur in my games to be +2 LA, with an additional +1 if added to a small or medium base creature due to the size increase, and it's still more powerful than half-dragon.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 12:58 PM
Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior would be solid, muscular, stone-fleshed win. Added to a Githzerai it would have the following adjustments:

Large Humanoid (Earth)
Str +14, Dex +4, Con +10, Int -6 (minimum 1), Wis -2, Cha -2
Speed: 40
AC: +7 natural
Natural Attacks: Gore 1d8
Darkvision 60
Scent
DR 8/adamantine
Cunning: +4 to escape Maze spells and automatically know which direction is north
Earth Strike once/day from Mineral Warrior
Githzerai natural psionics, power resistance, psi-like abilities, languages, and favored class
+2 Search, Spot, Listen
Track as a bonus feat
LA +4

I don't think you misapplied Half-Minotaur-adjustments to the stats, but listed their other abilities. Composite stats should be:
Githzerai: +6 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis
Half-Minotaur: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int (Crystalkeep lists +2 Wis here, but the Dragon Magazine itself does not list any Wis-adjustments)
Mineral Warrior: +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

I'm not going to toss the size increase modifiers here, because I don't think they should be applied (as I understand, size increase modifiers should only be applied when a creature increases in size due to HD increase - a template is considered to already contains those modifiers):

+6 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int (so place at least one point here to avoid animal intellect), -2 Cha

monty
2009-04-14, 01:11 PM
I included the medium to large adjustments, Str is +8 size, +4 half-minotaur, +2 mineral warrior, for +14 total. I've houseruled half-minotaur in my games to be +2 LA, with an additional +1 if added to a small or medium base creature due to the size increase, and it's still more powerful than half-dragon.

Hmm, I thougt mineral warrior was more than that for some reason. Blame my bad memory, I guess.

Volkov
2009-04-14, 01:19 PM
i need a plus 2 template for a monk, that can be combined with githzerai. I am currently considering half fey, as weird as that is, but am looking for something a little better. thanks in advance
Death Knight. Because the Damage reduction for the Death Knight and the monk will be the same, that is, #/magic. So they would stack, creating a damage reduction of 25/magic. That is if your twentieth level. The spell resistance sources, however, are a problem. You could have the spell resistance be based on CR and not hit dice, which should help alleviate the problem.

Also if you have a good charisma score, you gain a inflict light wounds touch attack that can be applied on top of your unarmed strike. Not to mention you get the infernal/hadean/abyssal blast ability, which can wipe out everyone in a 20 foot radius of a selected blast zone. Also you get natural armor which stacks with your inertial armor, and your unarmored AC bonus.

Also you gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom and Charisma, and a +4 to strength. You get a cool mount, although the speed bonus you get will make it redundant unless you plan on getting mounted combat feats. Immunity to cold, electricity, and polymorphing in addition to the immunities all undead possess.

You become immune to Turn and Rebuke attempts, and you get an army of undead who's total hit dice can be up to twice your total hit dice.

The Downside is that it renders Diamond body, Purity of Body, and Timeless body all useless. You don't get a constitution score bonus to your hit points or your fortitude saves. And you also get destroyed at 0 hitpoints. But the lack of bonus hit points problem can be remedied by toughness and improved toughness. Although I suggest you house rule in the neverwinter nights versions. I.E toughness gives 1 hit point per HD, and improved toughness gives 3 hit points per hit dice. The Fortitude save problem can be remedied with great fortitude.

In any case, Death Knight is a great template for humanoids.

tyckspoon
2009-04-14, 01:20 PM
I'm not going to toss the size increase modifiers here, because I don't think they should be applied (as I understand, size increase modifiers should only be applied when a creature increases in size due to HD increase - a template is considered to already contains those modifiers):


This was probably the intent, but Half-Minotaur (and its close cousin, the template version of Half-Ogre) are very sloppily written; they just say "If you increase size, apply all modifiers thereof." This was probably meant to just mean "increase reach, -1 size to hit/AC, hide check penalty, etc" but the stat increases are a modifier of changing size, so in the absence of other qualifying statements (such as Enlarge Person's explicit enumerations of what happens to your stats) the templates apply them. Without them Half-Minotaur isn't nearly so overwhelming.. +Str +Con and Large size still isn't too bad a deal for a melee character, but it becomes something you have to seriously consider against a class level in a decent class.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 01:38 PM
This was probably the intent, but Half-Minotaur (and its close cousin, the template version of Half-Ogre) are very sloppily written; they just say "If you increase size, apply all modifiers thereof." This was probably meant to just mean "increase reach, -1 size to hit/AC, hide check penalty, etc" but the stat increases are a modifier of changing size, so in the absence of other qualifying statements (such as Enlarge Person's explicit enumerations of what happens to your stats) the templates apply them. Without them Half-Minotaur isn't nearly so overwhelming.. +Str +Con and Large size still isn't too bad a deal for a melee character, but it becomes something you have to seriously consider against a class level in a decent class.

Be that as it may, size increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) specifically mention size increases because of increased hit dice. Any other effect that increases size (be it a magical effect such as Righteous Might, Enlarge Person or Animal Growth) all have a separate listing for the modifiers.

The "Reading A Template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#readingATemplate)"-section states the following:
"If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus."

Doesn't mention stat changes there. Further, the "Abilities"-section states:
"If a template changes one or more ability scores, these changes are noted here."


Now, it's true that the Template itself states the following:
"If the base creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains one size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."

However, due to all the stuff listed above, it could be read to just look at what the size changes do to your checks - ability score changes specifically only work for Hit Die-based increases and the template makes no special mention of applying the ability score changes too, leading me to read it as not giving the ability score increases (although the opposite ruling is clearly valid - that said, the template is actually somewhat playable without that reading so I'd itch towards the conservative one here).

Myrmex
2009-04-14, 01:59 PM
-6 int is quite a hit.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-14, 02:08 PM
Directly from the template's description in Dragon 313:

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change. If the base creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains one size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there.
It is explicitly spelled out in the template, there is absolutely no room for (mis)interpretation.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 02:23 PM
It is explicitly spelled out in the template, there is absolutely no room for (mis)interpretation.

Yeah, I quoted the same line. I was going to argue that as it's not explicitly stated that stat changes too are going to take place, they would not, but as I checked that table I noticed that it doesn't really have anything but stat changes, so I'm just gonna call it an editing error. 'cause at +4/+2/-2 Half-Minotaur is good for melee, but arguably not better than a character with extra HD, while +12/-2/+6/-2 pretty much automatically beats out a melee fighter even with extra HD outside few very specific sitiuations (like being caught in a Cloudkill on a clinch level).

herrhauptmann
2009-04-14, 04:59 PM
No. They adjust CR by +1 or +2.

The elemental creature templates in the manual of the planes do not list Level Adjustment, but they were reprinted in the Planar Handbook somewhere else (just checked the planar handbook and didn't find them), and there they have level adjustments that go from +2 (Wood) to +5 (Air), most are +4.

Really? And here I thought my last 3.5 DM was messing with me because he could, saying I'd take a +4 LA for an earth element dwarf (Not the unearthed arcana variant. Those flatout were't allowed). (He had a tendency to change a rule, and sometimes say it was a houserule, and sometimes say "That's how the published rule works.")

Chronos
2009-04-14, 07:10 PM
An "Earth Dwarf" could be a normal dwarf with the earth template and a high LA, or it could be a variant race from Unearthed Arcana with no LA.

And like I said, the half-minotaur template is often regarded as being in error. But even without the extra size modifiers, large size and +4 to Str and Con is probably still worth a point of LA for warrior-types.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 07:13 PM
An "Earth Dwarf" could be a normal dwarf with the earth template and a high LA, or it could be a variant race from Unearthed Arcana with no LA.

And like I said, the half-minotaur template is often regarded as being in error. But even without the extra size modifiers, large size and +4 to Str and Con is probably still worth a point of LA for warrior-types.

The awesome thing is that you get Large size without changing your type so simple Enlarge Person makes you Huge (15' reach) and gives you 30' threatened area with a reach weapon (unlike with non-Humanoid types and Expansion, you don't need to lift a finger for this). Not only that, but you'll be tripping Tarrasques in no time.

Draken
2009-04-14, 11:05 PM
Found it.

DnD3.5 Update Booklet, avaible for download at Wizard's website.

Half-Elemental: +3
Shadow Creature: +2
Air Element: +4
Earth Element: +5
Fire Element: +4
Water Element: +4
Cold Element: +5
Wood Element: +5
Anarchic: +5
Axiomatic: +4
Pseudonatural: +4

Typewriter
2009-04-15, 08:45 AM
Heres a question.

You technically can apply half templates on top of half-templates(essentially the same as adding a template to a half-orc or half-giant).

If you a small creature and applied half-ogre, and then half-minotaur.....

Wouldn't you go to large then? Because each one raises it if you're not already large.

So, gnome for instance + half-ogre on 32 point buy

STR 16 for 16 points
DEX 10 for 0 points
CON 16 for 6 points
INT XX
WIS XX
CHA XX

+half-ogre which I think is 4 STR, Plus size modifiers going from small to medium:

STR 28
DEX 10(or close)
CON 20(Think you gain four from sizing up)
And I think you get 3 or 4 natural armor?

Then you add half-minotaur which takes you to large:

STR 40
DEX 10(?)
CON 24
Another 3 or 4 natural armor for a total of 6 or 8. Large size and 40 STR.

I'd take a reach weapon with this and end up going war-hulk later on(not the best class in the world, but fun at high levels. "No time to think" is one of the funniest class abilities ever when RPed well, and having the 65 base strength(if you put all leveling points into it) at level 20 would be hilarious. Just carry a giant cage around and throw everyone you capture into it. You're strong enough to.

Gnorman
2009-04-15, 03:46 PM
Heres a question.

You technically can apply half templates on top of half-templates(essentially the same as adding a template to a half-orc or half-giant).

If you a small creature and applied half-ogre, and then half-minotaur.....

Wouldn't you go to large then? Because each one raises it if you're not already large.

So, gnome for instance + half-ogre on 32 point buy

STR 16 for 16 points
DEX 10 for 0 points
CON 16 for 6 points
INT XX
WIS XX
CHA XX

+half-ogre which I think is 4 STR, Plus size modifiers going from small to medium:

STR 28
DEX 10(or close)
CON 20(Think you gain four from sizing up)
And I think you get 3 or 4 natural armor?

Then you add half-minotaur which takes you to large:

STR 40
DEX 10(?)
CON 24
Another 3 or 4 natural armor for a total of 6 or 8. Large size and 40 STR.

I'd take a reach weapon with this and end up going war-hulk later on(not the best class in the world, but fun at high levels. "No time to think" is one of the funniest class abilities ever when RPed well, and having the 65 base strength(if you put all leveling points into it) at level 20 would be hilarious. Just carry a giant cage around and throw everyone you capture into it. You're strong enough to.

I'm going to throw logic around on this one and say that if you're half-ogre, half-minotaur, you're not really a gnome anymore.

monty
2009-04-15, 03:49 PM
I'm going to throw logic around on this one

What did you go and do that for? Besides, I remember reading in one of the books somewhere that having multiple half-whatever templates starts breaking down into smaller fractions. Alternately, you're not half-whatever by birth, but a wizard did it.

Typewriter
2009-04-15, 03:56 PM
There is cheese, I admit, and yes, biologically speaking you wouldn't be 3 halves :)

You'd be 1/4 gnome, 1/4 ogre or minotaur, and 1/2 of the other.

But via the rules of templates it's possible.

Half-templates do nothing to detract from the bonuses of the base race, so if your grandma was a gnome, and your grandpa was an ogre, then your mother(or father) was a half-gnome/half-ogre, with the full benefits of half-ogre.

Said parent then mates with a minotaur, and you are the offspring. You gail all the benefits of the 'base race', in this situation being a half-ogre half gnome, and get all of the aforementioned bonuses.

You could of course houserule against this, but aside from just the abuse of it you'd be hard pressed without also outruling half-giants or half-orcs being allowed these templates.


But keep in mind, templates don't care what your base race is. If you're a cloud giant, and your parent was a minotaur, then you'll be stronger than normal half-giants even though one parent was weaker than another cloud giant.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-15, 05:05 PM
What if the character's parents were a Gnome Half-Ogre and a Gnome Half-Minotaur? That would make him 1/2 Gnome, 1/4 Ogre and 1/4 Minotaur, though I'm not sure why two medium-size parents would create a large-size child.

Typewriter
2009-04-15, 05:49 PM
Well said. I think I covered every other possible combination, but you found one I missed :)

And yes, I agree - it makes no sense for them to birth a large creature, but mechanically speaking....

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-15, 06:17 PM
What if the character's parents were a Gnome Half-Ogre and a Gnome Half-Minotaur? That would make him 1/2 Gnome, 1/4 Ogre and 1/4 Minotaur, though I'm not sure why two medium-size parents would create a large-size child.

Its not totally unrealistic. I'm gonna pull a taboo and apply Real-World Science tm to this. IRL, Dwarfism is a dominant trait, meaning two dwarf parents (provided both are heterozygous) can produce a normal size offspring (though the chance is slim at 25%) if they both pass on the recessive "normal size" trait.

Gnorman
2009-04-15, 07:05 PM
Realism be damned. It's just funny.

Typewriter
2009-04-15, 08:41 PM
I agree with both of you.

It can make sense if you believe(really believe!!!)

and also:

Funny

Teron
2009-04-16, 02:15 AM
Death Knight. Because the Damage reduction for the Death Knight and the monk will be the same, that is, #/magic. So they would stack, creating a damage reduction of 25/magic.
It doesn't work that way. DR doesn't stack unless it says so, which is quite rare for good reason.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-16, 02:36 AM
Death Knight. Because the Damage reduction for the Death Knight and the monk will be the same, that is, #/magic. So they would stack, creating a damage reduction of 25/magic. That is if your twentieth level. The spell resistance sources, however, are a problem. You could have the spell resistance be based on CR and not hit dice, which should help alleviate the problem.

any amount of DR/magic is deeply uninspiring at level 20, it stops being a factor twelve levels earlier.


Also if you have a good charisma score, you gain a inflict light wounds touch attack that can be applied on top of your unarmed strike.

No you can't. An unarmed touch attack and an unarmed strike are two different things.


Not to mention you get the infernal/hadean/abyssal blast ability, which can wipe out everyone in a 20 foot radius of a selected blast zone.

It's weak blast ability, for taking out mooks and it's once a day too. You get some other stuff dependant on which template you're talking about but none of it's particularly impressive when you can get it and it doesn't scale.


Also you get natural armor which stacks with your inertial armor, and your unarmored AC bonus.

Yes, useful bonus but it's only +5


Also you gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom and Charisma, and a +4 to strength.

small stat boosts, good but not great.


You get a cool mount, although the speed bonus you get will make it redundant unless you plan on getting mounted combat feats. Immunity to cold, electricity, and polymorphing in addition to the immunities all undead possess.

Good immunities although it also leaves you open to undead vulnarabilities.


You become immune to Turn and Rebuke attempts,

except this one, undead PCs are notoriously easy to turn so this is useful but there's also the idea that maybe not turning into undead in the first place is a better way to get turning immunity as a beatstick, a caster or archer can be far enough back that turning isn't too crucial but for an undead PC it can be a nightmare so Deathknight is useful in that at least, or rather it doesn't open up that can of worms.


and you get an army of undead who's total hit dice can be up to twice your total hit dice.

very good, easily cheesed and broken, only really impressive thing about the Death Knight is that it gets an overpowered Leadership class feature.


The Downside is that it renders Diamond body, Purity of Body, and Timeless body all useless.

That's alright, they were to start with.


You don't get a constitution score bonus to your hit points or your fortitude saves. And you also get destroyed at 0 hitpoints.

This is a huge problem for undead beatsticks, it makes them squishy as anything, they do great for casters and ok for skillmonkies but if your job on the team is to stand there and take it these are crippling.


But the lack of bonus hit points problem can be remedied by toughness and improved toughness. Although I suggest you house rule in the neverwinter nights versions. I.E toughness gives 1 hit point per HD, and improved toughness gives 3 hit points per hit dice. The Fortitude save problem can be remedied with great fortitude.

No, a good Con score will net you a lot more than a +2 on the save and although that is a reasonable houserule it's still a houserule and many DMs are leary of players coming up with their own.


In any case, Death Knight is a great template for humanoids.

meh, +5 is a HUUUUGE LA far more than the OP wanted and it doesn't net you anything too impressive except a breakable leadership feature. to be honest this template is crippling on a PC, compare what you could have got with another 5 class levels with what you get with this template.