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Zaq
2009-04-13, 07:48 PM
Okay, so there are a lot of flavorful but mechanically subpar prestige classes out there. Specifically, almost any PrC that grants half spellcasting, but there are others as well. There have been numerous threads on how cool and/or useless these PrCs are, but I'd like to approach the topic from another angle. How would you balance making NPCs with these classes? Personally, I like to bend or break as few rules as possible when I make NPCs, but I am willing to do so when it would be thematically cool and/or appropriate. But baseline aside, let's say you want to make an NPC, oh, Acolyte of the Skin (chosen semi-randomly... the actual prestige class is not important. What is important is that it's a cool but weak class. It could just as easily be Entropomancer, or Divine Agent, or whatever). I hardly need to mention how much it hurts to give up all those casting levels, but the cool abilities are spread out. If I want to have an NPC with some of the later abilities, though, then their hit dice, saves, and BAB are artificially inflated, kind of unfair to the PCs. If you just pick and choose the later abilities and give them to the NPC early, well, sometimes that's warranted, and sometimes it's completely unbalancing. You could give them full casting, but that might also be unbalancing since full casting is so powerful anyway. It's a puzzlement as far as I'm concerned... what are your thoughts on this? What's the best way to give NPCs thematically cool levels without making them unnecessarily weak or unnecessarily strong?

Shpadoinkle
2009-04-13, 08:10 PM
What's the best way to give NPCs thematically cool levels without making them unnecessarily weak or unnecessarily strong?

Rule 0.

Everything, EVERYTHING in the books are just suggestions and guidelines. While you CAN do things strictly by the book, no variations or houserules, ever, it's kinda boring and restrictive. Sometimes the Rule of Fun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun) and Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) SHOULD intrude.

Chronos
2009-04-13, 08:15 PM
Even without Rule 0, there's still plenty of room for tweaking. If an NPC with the abilities you like would have saves and HP that are too high, for instance, you can just give them low Con, Dex, and/or Wis. Your players never need to know that his Fort mod is 12 because he has a base of 8 and an 18 Con, or a base of 16 and a 3 Con.

Actually, they probably never need to know what his Fort mod is at all, but they might be able to roughly figure it out based on how often he withstands their attacks.

Godskook
2009-04-13, 08:40 PM
I was under the impression that a single level will not make a huge difference, especially if the level is in a hyper weak prestige class.

A mystic theurge can be at least 3 levels higher than a single-class caster without having any noticeable effect in short-term situations(Are 3d4 HD really going to help anything?). Will saves will still be awesome, reflex saves will be crap, and fort almost as bad. BAB will likely not matter. At 3 levels higher, a theurge has the exact same spell choices as a single-class caster of equal level would, just twice over. Since this doesn't add any new actions, the theurge isn't really helping more than the other casters, even at the heightened level.

I'm sure similar logics apply to other prc classes.

To get more specific, NPC doing what, exactly? Or are you referring to a DMPC?

Zaq
2009-04-13, 08:42 PM
The problem is not making them, the problem is balancing them. What's a good rule of thumb for figuring out when it's appropriate to shift the higher-level abilities down and when it's not? When can you tell that another caster level is a good idea or a bad idea?

Everything is up to the GM, as it should be, but when you're tinkering with class levels... it's undeniable that some classes are stronger than others, but at least everything tends to follow consistent rules. Start messing with that consistency, and for someone like me who doesn't have an intuitive head for game balance, it's very easy to ruin the PCs' game, either by crushing them or by making the fights anticlimactic. How best, then, to deal with the problems of balance when you start treating class features as legos?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-13, 08:55 PM
My personal favored option(if you plan in advance) is to tell the players that you're rebalancing many PrCs for use by both NPCs and PCs. If they've got a specific one they want, talk to you and you'll figure out if it needs a boost, and if so, how. Then an NPC Acolyte of the Skin and a PC one will be exactly the same in terms of capabilities, and the Blood Magus that you throw at them has abilities that they can get if they want to, and you gave them the option of taking it in the beginning anyways.

If not that, Flaws are excellent. They can reduce saves/BAB/HP in a surgical manner, with little boost to power. If say your Blood Magus needs to be tougher with worse saves but better casting, give him Weak Will/Fort/Ref, Practiced Spellcaster, Improved Toughness, Toughness, and an extra 2 levels. Then eyeball the new CR because it's probably not what's listed.

Edit:Just figured out what you were asking for. My suggestion is running the encounter in advance. 2-3 times with different PC actions each time should give you an idea of how expensive a win will be for them, at which point you can scale it up or down and repeat.

sonofzeal
2009-04-13, 10:14 PM
I know exactly what you mean. Here's a few ideas....



1) Higher stats. A CW Samurai with a 45 point buy is probably going to give them more trouble than a 28 point buy Barbarian.

2) Higher optimization. An Entropomancer tweaked out the wazzoo (entirely with the rules, using SpC and MIC, maybe using Scrolls for a few buffs he can't cast himself) could give as much of a challenge as a core-only Cleric of the same level.

3) Advantageous setting. Even a bad PrC usually excels at something, however weak it may be in general. You're the DM, cater to it! "Evangelist" is a horrid PrC, but put one in front of a crowd that loves him, and he'll give the PCs trouble.

4) Higher level. As previously mentioned, a Mystic Theurge NPC could be a level or two higher than you'd make a pure-caster, without messing up balance much. After all, not all characters in your world are going to be exactly the same level as the party, are they? You have to disregard CR for this, but honestly CR is rather broken anyway.

5) NPC class levels. Working with the CR system, I believe NPC class levels are always considered non-associated, meaning they only count for half as much as a PC level. And in some ways it works out really well - a Warrior 8 is not really any more dangerous than a Fighter 4, and in many ways is a better encounter (doesn't go down as fast, a bit better resistance to SoL, attacks are more consistent but perhaps less powerful). The same principal can be used for PrCs - an Adept 12 / PrC 5, as compared to a Wizard 6 / PrC 5, could potentially make the whole thing work a lot better and give a nicer encounter. Just keep optimization in check, because this system CAN be exploited badly.

Narmoth
2009-04-14, 02:35 AM
My suggested fix for this is simple:
You know how NPC classes count as half CR because they are weaker (warrior, acolyte and so on)?
Well, do the same with the prestige classes.
I made a very disturbing death knight by adding 4 or 5 levels of dominator from BoEF, but mechanically, those 5 levels don't give anything (half BAB and few hp I think) that warrants a CR 18 in stead of CR 14
Now, he has caster progression, but since his caster class was blackguard and not a cleric or wizard, that's still not much.
A CR 16 for him (counting dominator as an NPC class) on the other hand, sounds pretty describing for his battle abilities

sonofzeal
2009-04-14, 02:40 AM
My suggested fix for this is simple:
You know how NPC classes count as half CR because they are weaker (warrior, acolyte and so on)?
Well, do the same with the prestige classes.
I made a very disturbing death knight by adding 4 or 5 levels of dominator from BoEF, but mechanically, those 5 levels don't give anything (half BAB and few hp I think) that warrants a CR 18 in stead of CR 14
Now, he has caster progression, but since his caster class was blackguard and not a cleric or wizard, that's still not much.
A CR 16 for him (counting dominator as an NPC class) on the other hand, sounds pretty describing for his battle abilities
The term's "non-associated", and it already functions more or less like that for things with RHD. It's a good point that you can generalize to PrCs though. Here's the quote by itself (SRD, so legal)



Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-04-14, 06:08 AM
I don't think non-associated and NPC class levels work that way.
NPC class levels are non-associated only as long as you don't have more of them then you have RHD, this is the same for NPC class levels, they only count as non-associated if you have less of them then RHD.

That being said, I'd rather fight a fighter 4 over a warrior 8 any day.
2 feats vs. 4 BaB, 4d8 and better saves? yes please!

sonofzeal
2009-04-14, 10:24 AM
I don't think non-associated and NPC class levels work that way.
NPC class levels are non-associated only as long as you don't have more of them then you have RHD, this is the same for NPC class levels, they only count as non-associated if you have less of them then RHD.

That being said, I'd rather fight a fighter 4 over a warrior 8 any day.
2 feats vs. 4 BaB, 4d8 and better saves? yes please!
I know "nonassociated levels" don't actually work that way, but the idea is the same and it's trivial to generalize. I mean, we're talking houserules here, but at least this is a houserule based firmly on precedence.

As to Warrior vs Fighter, {a} it's three feats, not two, and {b} it totally depends what those three feats are. The (human) Fighter might have PowerAttack-LeapAttack-CombatExpertise-ImprovedTrip-CombatReflexes -Knockdown, and be a devastating charger and dangerous BCer. The Warrior might have... a greatsword. (yes I realize the Warrior could do the Leap Attack too, and take advantage of his higher BAB to be really deadly with it, but if you're throwing that at your players I'd walk)

But this isn't about theoretical build optimization. The question is which is easier to make fun for all involved. For the DM, the Warrior is easier to build, hands-down (remember that equipment is based on CR, not HD). For the PCs, the Warrior has the hitpoints to make the fight interesting instead of just a case of rocket-tag. He's going to be able to actually hit the PCs, do at least some damage, and be able to shrug off a few counterattacks before actually going down. The Fighter, at this level range, is going to have a seriously difficult time hitting anyone in heavy armour even without Power Attack, and in all probability is likely miss his massive Leap Attack (and the PCs won't be scared because they don't know how dangerous it is), and then go down before his turn comes up again. Hardly fun for anyone involved.

And that's really what I think NPC classes and the 1/2 CR rule are for. If your NPC enemies tend to go down in a single round, or take PCs out in a single round, NPC classes swing the balance back towards slightly longer and less immediately deadly fights, on both sides. And I think that very often that's a good thing.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-04-14, 03:16 PM
As to Warrior vs Fighter, {a} it's three feats, not two

No, it's two, the fighter gains three bonus feats, but the warrior gets another feat at level 6, so the difference is two. Something I did forget is that every enemy with PC levels uses the elite array while the NPC uses the non-elite array. Anyway the problem is that the difference between a level 9 fighter and a level 18 warrior is:
elite array, 5 bonus feats and 10+8d10 HP
vs.
non-elite array, 3 feats(any), 8+17d8 HP +5 fort save, +3 ref save, +3 will save, + 9 BaB(giving two more irritative attacks) and better skills.

This was chosen as optimum advantage point for the warrior, but it illustrates that you'll have to more careful then just adding NPC class levels as half levels, I expect adept to be even worse at this point.

Doug Lampert
2009-04-14, 03:40 PM
Anyway the problem is that the difference between a level 9 fighter and a level 18 warrior is:
elite array, 5 bonus feats and 10+8d10 HP
vs.
non-elite array, 3 feats(any), 8+17d8 HP +5 fort save, +3 ref save, +3 will save, + 9 BaB(giving two more irritative attacks) and better skills.

Nit: 18d8 HP for the NPC, non-elites don't get max HP at level one either.

sonofzeal
2009-04-14, 09:55 PM
No, it's two, the fighter gains three bonus feats, but the warrior gets another feat at level 6, so the difference is two. Something I did forget is that every enemy with PC levels uses the elite array while the NPC uses the non-elite array. Anyway the problem is that the difference between a level 9 fighter and a level 18 warrior is:
elite array, 5 bonus feats and 10+8d10 HP
vs.
non-elite array, 3 feats(any), 8+17d8 HP +5 fort save, +3 ref save, +3 will save, + 9 BaB(giving two more irritative attacks) and better skills.

This was chosen as optimum advantage point for the warrior, but it illustrates that you'll have to more careful then just adding NPC class levels as half levels, I expect adept to be even worse at this point.
Good point that it's by no means precise (and good catch on the bonus feat for level; for NPC classes I tend to ignore those or use them for basic things like Weapon Focus or Iron Will). I do think it's an important and powerful tool when designing encounters with NPCs, but you're entirely right that you've got to be careful and not just use the formula.

By the way, it actually seems to work out really nicely for Adept. An Adept20 has very similar spellcasting to a Wizard10. Both get three 3rd and 4th level slots, and both get two 5th level slots. The Adept gets way better CL, but few offensive spells that benefit from it (only Lightning, and that caps out at 10d6). The Wizard gets a way better spell list, but is lagging severely in saves and HP. All in all, I think I'd rather be fighting the Adept20 than the Wizard10, and I'd rather use one as a DM. I'd expect it to be fairly balanced in any case, but the Adept would suffer less from poor action economy since it's more durable all-round, and combat can evolve more naturally.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 10:26 PM
I'd rather face a Wizard 10 than Adept 20. Why? 'cause Adept knows Polymorph and 15 HD Polymorph is...EWW. Also, an Adept 20 can control 80 HD worth of Undead and has access to Heal and Restoration, among others. That said, yeah, it's pretty close. The Adept's saves and HP are of course a ****ton higher (+6/+6/+12 vs. +3/+3/+7 & 20d6+20X vs. 10d4+10X), but a Wizard is still a Wizard.

sonofzeal
2009-04-14, 11:36 PM
I'd rather face a Wizard 10 than Adept 20. Why? 'cause Adept knows Polymorph and 15 HD Polymorph is...EWW. Also, an Adept 20 can control 80 HD worth of Undead and has access to Heal and Restoration, among others. That said, yeah, it's pretty close. The Adept's saves and HP are of course a ****ton higher (+6/+6/+12 vs. +3/+3/+7 & 20d6+20X vs. 10d4+10X), but a Wizard is still a Wizard.
A 15 HD Polymorph is certainly better than a 10 HD Polymorph (unless the Wizard has CL boosters, which is entirely likely at that level). But how is the Adept controlling 80 HD of undead, with no "Control Undead" spell or Turning or anything like that?

AmberVael
2009-04-14, 11:44 PM
A 15 HD Polymorph is certainly better than a 10 HD Polymorph (unless the Wizard has CL boosters, which is entirely likely at that level). But how is the Adept controlling 80 HD of undead, with no "Control Undead" spell or Turning or anything like that?

With Animate dead, which they get as a 3rd level spell.