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View Full Version : Dwarf artificer/rogue - build suggestions?



Shecky
2009-04-14, 11:09 AM
We've got a new Eberron campaign coming up, and for various reasons, I need to roll up and play a dwarf artificer/rogue:

1) There's a warforged juggernaut in the party, and we'd really like to keep non-attenuated healing on him. We're short on personnel, and our regular arcane caster type gets confused when asked to do Non-Big-Bang-Boom stuff. Hence the "artificer" part.

2) In keeping with the aforementioned lack of personnel, we don't have another character that can multiclass to rogue, and given the propensities of the DM, we're going to NEED at least some roguishness (locks, traps and the like). Hence the "rogue" part.

3) DM is also notoriously stingy and encourages crafting instead of purchasing.

4) For complex backstory reasons, it would be a royal pain in the neck to make this character anything other than a dwarf.


I do have a few ideas that I've been rolling around in my head, but I'm not terribly satisfied with any of them; plus, I'd rather not prejudice any potential reactions or advice. Oh, and it'll be a 32-point build.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Advice?

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 11:18 AM
Artificer gets Trapfinding and has the necessary skills in class. Artificer 20 should work out just fine. Just get 14 starting Cha (adjusted to 12 by racials) and you'll be fine - it's Int that really matters anyways.

If you want to handle social skills, you could dip one level in Marshal, but as you're unlike to have lots of Cha as a Dwarf and don't have access to Able Learner, the dip becomes mediocre as do your social skills. It's technically possible, but I'd just stick to handling traps and all that. If you don't want to take ranks in Open Lock, you can just craft a Wand of Knock and use that instead.


But as you've got little else to spend ranks on and easily enough skillpoints, I suggest you max out Disable Device, Search, Open Lock, Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Concentration, Use Magic Device and Appraise, some Crafts or extra Knowledges (note that if you're capable of mundane crafting items, it can matter a great deal on the very first levels as crafting stuff is so much cheaper than buying it - this'll diminish in value over the next levels though).

Shecky
2009-04-14, 11:48 AM
So you're saying no levels of rogue at all? I hadn't even considered that...

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 11:52 AM
So you're saying no levels of rogue at all? I hadn't even considered that...

Precisely. It seems like an Artificer is exactly what the party needs and gives you everything you want so I see little reason for the Rogue-levels.

Shecky
2009-04-14, 12:09 PM
That would make things a lot easier. I'm still considering an initial level of rogue, just to get massive skill points, but the more I think about it, the more I see an artificer can do the roguish stuff (as long as he keeps the requisite skills maxed).

Now, I'm just wondering how to distribute skill points as I level up, as crafting AND "roguing" are both going to be important at all levels...

Zaq
2009-04-14, 12:25 PM
I would also recommend dropping the rogue levels in favor of more artificer. INT is a primary stat for artificers anyway. Put an 18 into INT, and you'll get 8 skill points per level. Not quite as many as the rogue, but if you're careful, it's enough. Remember that you can make damn near any magic item you need, so craft yourself a few skill booster items if you're worried. Isn't there an infusion that changes the bonus type of an item, such as from competence to insight? That'll help if you need to spike a single skill check sky-high for a short period of time. A lot of 1st-level spells give skill bonuses of varying strength as well, so spend some time with your spell compendium and make some scrolls. While rogue is a fine class, I think that slowing down your artificer progress just for the skills is probably a bad idea, given that magic and ingenuity can do much of the same thing. (This just highlights, of course, how badly overpowered magic in general is in 3.5, but that's how it is.)

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 12:33 PM
Now, I'm just wondering how to distribute skill points as I level up, as crafting AND "roguing" are both going to be important at all levels...

You don't need Craft-skills to make magical items - all you need them for are mundane items, so unless the world is truly completely devoid of smiths and overall handcraft workers, all the Craft-skills do is cull a few hundred off the armors you buy.

That said, out of the listed skills, you could cull the following:
Open Lock: if you use Wand of Knock instead
Concentration: spell completion items don't require Concentration-checks, so you only need Concentration for Infusions and if you don't plan on in-combat infusions, you don't really need this either
Spellcraft: if there's already a character with maxed Spellcraft, you don't really need this - it could be used for Counterspelling, but chances are you aren't gonna be doing much of that, although there's the Ring of Spell-Battle which would be handy and give you a reason to max this
Knowledge (Arcana): knowing stuff is handy, but again, if someone else handles it, it isn't really necessary for you

Also, if you start with 18 Int, you'll have 8 skillpoints per level, meaning there's already one skill "free" for a craft (such as Craft: Armorsmithing - the most useful out of the bunch) if you take all the ones I suggested.

Shecky
2009-04-14, 12:49 PM
Excellent. Many thanks, guys; you've pretty much converted me.

Anyone else have anything to add/comment?

Telonius
2009-04-14, 01:08 PM
I'd confirm with the Warforged that he's going to put at least a few ranks into Craft, for repairing himself. While the HP you gain from that might not be much, it adds up over time and also stops you from using quite so many infusions on him.

Myrmex
2009-04-14, 01:18 PM
Playing heal stick is a bummer, especially if they expect heals in combat. I would tell the warforged player that he
1) pays for all his heals
2) don't expect heals in combat

You're more action efficient if you can pew pew pew, instead of heal back one hit worth of damage.

Shecky
2009-04-14, 01:30 PM
Playing heal stick is a bummer, especially if they expect heals in combat. I would tell the warforged player that he
1) pays for all his heals
2) don't expect heals in combat

You're more action efficient if you can pew pew pew, instead of heal back one hit worth of damage.

Most of us are team players; I don't mind feeding the engine of destruction. And once I start getting some levels, I'm gonna start a little boomsticking while waiting for the juggernaut to take significant damage, so no worries there.

I have no problem whatsoever playing support, despite the fact that I've played melee for over a quarter century straight.

But I'll still bounce the idea of Craft off of our juggernaut; as foamy as he gets over the damage output, the player is a team player.

Myrmex
2009-04-14, 01:33 PM
I'm playing a beguiler, and the melee just runs into combat, takes a bunch of damage, and expects me to spend all my actions spewing CSW on them from a wand.

A-holes.

They should play smarter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-14, 01:42 PM
Most of us are team players; I don't mind feeding the engine of destruction. And once I start getting some levels, I'm gonna start a little boomsticking while waiting for the juggernaut to take significant damage, so no worries there.

I have no problem whatsoever playing support, despite the fact that I've played melee for over a quarter century straight.

But I'll still bounce the idea of Craft off of our juggernaut; as foamy as he gets over the damage output, the player is a team player.It's not a question of being a team player. Healing scales poorly. You're looking at maybe doing enough to remove one rounds worth of damage by spending your round working. Generally, there are better things to do. The Warforged kills just as well at 1 HP as he does at 100, but if you spend the round healing, that enemy will get more hits in, while if both of you spend it killing, the enemy is probably dead. Sure, heal him, but wait to do so until after the enemy won't undo your work.

Eldariel
2009-04-14, 01:43 PM
Most of us are team players; I don't mind feeding the engine of destruction. And once I start getting some levels, I'm gonna start a little boomsticking while waiting for the juggernaut to take significant damage, so no worries there.

I have no problem whatsoever playing support, despite the fact that I've played melee for over a quarter century straight.

But I'll still bounce the idea of Craft off of our juggernaut; as foamy as he gets over the damage output, the player is a team player.

Let me rephrase what he's trying to say:
-If you start healing him in combat, you're going to be expending more resources and taking more damage total than if you worked to disable the adversaries. The only exception to this rule is an effect on the scale of "Heal" that can validly disable many actions from the opponent.

Generally you simply heal less than opponent does with one action, meaning you're not even negating the opponent's hit, while if you disabled/dropped the opponent, you'd be preventing a whole lot more damage. That's the principal reason you shouldn't really default to the MMORPG Healbot duty in PnP even if you have the necessary abilities - in the long run, you'll save more HP by disabling/killing the opponents first and healing after combat (carry a Wand of Repair Light Wounds around), the only exception being when that healing would save a life.

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-14, 01:49 PM
First off... http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-534502.html LINKED!

Go read it! Its good. This thread will wait till you get back.

Done yet? Good. Max Int, bump up Cha, know your skill synergies, and ask your DM if you can craft custom items. You can do so much with an artificer: rogueing, crafting, blasting, even a meleeficer if you want. If you didn't already have a warforged buddy I would suggest taking leadership for a warforged buddy.

There is some seriously broken stuff you can do with the right feats and Metamagic Item Infusion.

Shecky
2009-04-14, 02:31 PM
Never intended to be a healbot for the juggernaut, folks; I just wanted to be able to free up the arcane caster to have more spell slots open for boom-boom. As I said, I'm aiming for boomsticking as soon as possible - a properly-equipped wandslinger can easily do as much boom as a broken caster, yet STILL have spell slots open for non-boom things.

Re in-combat healing: I'd rather not. All things considered, I'd prefer wand/potion/scroll healing between combats (almost 30 years of melee-character play has taught me that melees are at their most productive when only needing to be topped off instead of having to have their eggs pulled out of the fire). Be that as it may, I've seen too many times where bad rolls, a moment of inattention or just about anything else made it so someone in melee needed healing, so it kills two birds with one stone to be able to combine artificing with at-need support. Especially with the killer dungeons our DMs like to create - sometimes there's just no way around it but to roll the dice and dive in.

Myrmex
2009-04-14, 02:49 PM
Never intended to be a healbot for the juggernaut, folks; I just wanted to be able to free up the arcane caster to have more spell slots open for boom-boom. As I said, I'm aiming for boomsticking as soon as possible - a properly-equipped wandslinger can easily do as much boom as a broken caster, yet STILL have spell slots open for non-boom things.

Re in-combat healing: I'd rather not. All things considered, I'd prefer wand/potion/scroll healing between combats (almost 30 years of melee-character play has taught me that melees are at their most productive when only needing to be topped off instead of having to have their eggs pulled out of the fire). Be that as it may, I've seen too many times where bad rolls, a moment of inattention or just about anything else made it so someone in melee needed healing, so it kills two birds with one stone to be able to combine artificing with at-need support. Especially with the killer dungeons our DMs like to create - sometimes there's just no way around it but to roll the dice and dive in.

Well then, sounds like you know what you're doing, and as long as your teammates know what to expect, it should work fine.

The Manly Man
2009-04-14, 04:44 PM
I see in-combat healing as a nice bonus for the melee characters, not something they should be relying on.

If I've got a spare round, I'll replenish their hitpoints. If I'd rather screw over the enemy instead, then it's up to them to five-foot step, take the potion out of their Handy Haversack and drink the damn thing.

Chronos
2009-04-14, 07:29 PM
Isn't there an infusion that changes the bonus type of an item, such as from competence to insight? That'll help if you need to spike a single skill check sky-high for a short period of time.Item Alteration, level 4. Even without any magic items, and without spending any XP or other permanent costs, an 8th-level artificer can give someone (himself included) +18 to a skill check that stacks with everything for 80 minutes per day. Use the Skill Enhancer infusion to make a temporary item that gives +6 circumstance bonus to a skill, and then use Item Alteration to change that into some bonus type you don't have from another source (Enhancement, say). Then make another Skill Enhancer, and use Item Alteration to change it into some other bonus type (Perfection bonus, maybe). Then make another Skill Enhancer trinket, and leave it as it is (circumstance bonuses stack, as long as they're from different circumstances). This is in addition to any ranks you might have, and works even better with real, permanent magic items. As you level up, you can use more Item Alterations to gain more bonus types, and can make those permanent items, such that by level 20, you can get +180 or more to a skill.

Shecky
2010-03-10, 12:29 PM
Okay, I'm back. Due to a spate of real-life issues, our campaign got postponed and will likely be starting up for real in the next month, two at most. DM wants us to start off at level two, and for various reasons wants me at LEAST to have my first level in rogue (backstory's getting interesting). So, I'll be starting up with 1 rogue / 1 artificer (since I have to have the rogue level, I figure I'll make that level 1 to take advantage of all those pretty, shiny skill points).

Any new comments/suggestions/reactions?

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-10, 12:38 PM
Dwarven rogue substitute levels gives you a bonus to damage against objects in lieu of sneak attack. Also a better HD. May be better for your concept. Dragon magazine #338.

Shecky
2010-03-11, 08:22 PM
That's pretty freakin' cool, but our DM, in an effort to keep things simple, asked us to restrict ourselves to core rulebooks. Which suits me, to be truthful; it helps keep everyone honest when everyone else knows what you're drawing from (let's face it - there's a lot of broken stuff out there, and if you're not limited to the common-knowledge sources, it could get... reinterpreted to become MORE broken).