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Darth Stabber
2009-04-14, 11:58 AM
So I had a character Idea based on a previous thread. The basic Premise is Combine Rogue SA, Dread Necro Charnel touch and touch debuffs, and the chameleon templates ability to deliver touch attacks at 15'. start with base race of Tibbit (i just like the thought of a tiny cat sneaking up on people and delivering a savage tongue lashing, plus the bonuses to sneaking around in cat form, plus the innocuousness of that form in the off chance i get caught, I mean who suspect a harmless kitty to be the feared and reviled necromancer). So lvl 1 Tibbit Rogue//Chameleon LA with , lvl 2 Rogue//Dread Necromancer and now my tongue comes into use. Use the tongue to deliver Charnel Touch, add in SA if they are denied dex.

Now for the questions
1) the Obvious, how do I maximize benefits of this dovetailing (keep it simple)
2) Can I get SA on an tongue touch attack, even though it deals no damage
3) by the same token do I get the SA dice on touch attack spells, Enervation + SA Damage could be sweet.
4) should I switch which side gets the LA, I like skills, maybe more than caster level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-14, 12:41 PM
1. Command/Create undead minions to flank opponents. Get the feat Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis to use your Charnel Touch to heal yourself. Take two Unarmed Swordsage levels to make an unarmed strike with your reach attack, plus Charnel Touch, get Assassin's Stance to get +2d6 sneak attack from it, take the feat Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer to add your Cha bonus to AC in light armor. Take the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon to get early access to the next level of Dread Necromancer spells by both RAW and RAI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a).

2. If it has an attack roll, it can be a sneak attack. If it deals HP damage, the sneak attack dice is the same type of damage (negative energy in this case) as the original attack. If you make an unarmed strike, the sneak attack adds additional bludgeoning damage, even if you make a Charnel Touch with it.

3. Yes, as long as there's an attack roll and they're within 30 ft., but if it does not deal HP damage the sneak attack adds additional HP damage as negative energy damage (for necromancy spells).

4. Skills are nice, but spellcasting is definitely better, and the Dread Necromancer's class features are better than the Rogue's. Skills can be caught up much easier than caster level.

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-14, 02:01 PM
Take two Unarmed Swordsage levels to make an unarmed strike with your reach attack, plus Charnel Touch, get Assassin's Stance to get +2d6 sneak attack from it, take the feat Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer to add your Cha bonus to AC in light armor.

Everything but this is spot on. The tongue attack cannot be used as an unarmed attack. It specifically says it can't do damage. You can channel spells through it and therefore get SA with it but you cant turn a the tongue into an unarmed strike. The assassins stance and wis to armor may still be worth it, but you may have to talk to your DM about the Ascetic mage because it is technically for monk/sorceror builds (shouldn't be a big deal though). All of this will make one bad ass character. May I suggest going primordial half-giant for invisibility at will a +4 to CHA and INT, you'd take a hit in Dex but with invisibility and the feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness, no one is gonna find you.

Another interesting choice, probably not the most efficient, to make your skillmonkey INT more useful 3 levels in swashbuckler (with Daring Outlaw as desired)

EDIT: Primordial Half Giant can be a +0 LA class if you take the version that splits the +1 LA for Half Giant into two levels... if i could only find it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-14, 02:21 PM
Ascetic Mage can be taken by any character who meets the prerequisites (Improved Unarmed Strike, spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells), and they'll gain all of its applicable effects. Even a single-classed spontaneous spellcaster can take Improved Unarmed Strike and Ascetic Mage and only partially benefit from it if they want. "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC." This works with Ninja, Swordsage, Monk, and even a Monk's Belt on a single-classed spellcaster.

Even without a 15' reach unarmed strike, (unarmed) Swordsage 2 is definitely worth taking in the build. Note that with Versatile Spellcaster you'll be able to get Ascetic Mage at level 3, though you'll probably want Tomb-Tainted Soul early on. The best solution to this would be to take a flaw or use a base race that gets a bonus feat, but moving TTS to level 6 would probably be worth having Ascetic Mage at 3.

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-14, 11:07 PM
My apologies, Biff. Your interpretation of Ascetic Mage is correct, now that I'm home and can check my books. A strict interpretation would mean that AC bonus only stacks with sorceror and monk levels, but that's not really a problem for this build! :smallwink:

Darth Stabber
2009-04-15, 08:31 AM
I'd like avoid cheesing up my casting with versatile caster (though it is not as cheesy as Precocious apprentice). I want tomb tainted soul early, since this i a build I am going to hold in reserve until such time as i have a chance to play gestalt again, and i could be starting out at lvl 1-2, and I would like to have that then. Heck if I can get the rest of the party to take it, Who needs a cleric ("crap fighter just got hurt, quick HARM him")? being Human is painfull i lose
1)Small size or smaller - my combat effectiveness is increased as size goes down, since I don't lose my reach and I get harder to hit, while since my damage is not weapon size dependent (well maybe a little, dependent Upon monk or Swashbuckler), and being smaller makes me better at sneaking since I plan to do alot of it.
2) Effective immunity to polymorph
3) The perfect disguise (cat)
4) +2dex


So Current thought
str 8 dex 15 Con 12 int14 wis10 Cha 18 (rolled, Racial mods included)
1)Dread Necro//LA - feat TTS
2)Dread Necro//Rogue
3)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler - Spell Focus Necromancy
4)Dread Necro//Ninja
5)Dread Necro//Paladin of Tyranny
6)Dread Necro//Paladin of Tyranny - feat Ascetic Mage
7)Dread Necro//Paladin of Tyranny
8)Dread Necro//Rogue
9)Dread Necro//Rogue - Heighten Spell
10)Dread Necro//Rogue
11)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
12)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler - Daring Outlaw
13)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
14)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
15)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler - Empower Spell
16)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
17)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
18)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler - Extend Spell
19)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
20)Dread Necro//Swashbuckler
str8 dex16 con12 int14 wis10 cha22


Question
- Are Hide and MS on the swashbuckler list, If not those lvls get replaced with rogue and I get another Meta Magic feat, in fact what does Daring Outlaw do, I see it in many builds, and figure it's just that good if you are playing rogue swashbuckler anyway.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-15, 11:46 AM
You need Improved Unarmed Strike to get Ascetic Mage, so with Ninja you have to spend another feat for it. Unarmed Swordsage gets it for free, and for two levels you get +2d6 sneak attack so you really can't beat it, plus you still get the AC bonus while wearing light armor. Two levels of Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) could also be a good choice, you'd get your Cha bonus to AC a second time with no armor restriction.

I'd skip Swashbuckler, since you can't use Insightful Strike on ranged attacks and it doesn't give enough skill points or the right class skills to be a proper skillmonkey. If you went Human (or even Illumian) for Able Learner it could work, but I'd stick with classes that get 6+ skill points/level on that side of the build. If you want better BAB, Fort save, and HP, go with a Swift Hunter build instead of using Sneak Attack. Ranger gives six skill points/level, good Fort and Reflex save, Fighter BAB, and d8 HP, everything Dread Necromancer is lacking. You can move and cast a ray spell to get your Skirmish damage, and you'll be able to cast and use wands of Ranger spells like Camouflage.

Darth Stabber
2009-04-15, 12:41 PM
Trade Ninja for Monk (don't have ToB, Don't particularly want it)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-15, 03:38 PM
In that case, get two levels of Cobra-Strike Monk, it gets you all the feats you need for Arcane Duelist.