PDA

View Full Version : Annoying Scouts!



Cedrass
2009-04-15, 07:31 PM
Hey guys, I've got a Scout in one of my campaign who's giving me a headache. Most monsters I throw at him won't last long enough to bother him, and when they do, his teammates come in and make short work of them.

I don't want to kill him or anything, but I' really wondering what I can do to make him less/not effective during a combat. Because right now the party relays too much on him. I know reducing his mobility is one, but, there must be something else, plus 10ft per round isn't that hard to do, even when Entangled or whatnot.

Thanks guys!

FMArthur
2009-04-15, 07:36 PM
Undead/Constucts/Oozes will cause your scout to cry at his own helplessness. But that's actually kind of mean, because it would make his character's main gimmick (I'm assuming he's Skirmish-dependent) entirely ineffectual and would be similar to taking away his class and abilities. What's the rest of the party?

Anyway, one hallmark of a weak encounter is a lack of casters, which I suspect may be the case if a scout is causing problems. Mix in spellcasting enemies (and not just damage spells or it's just a glorified archer!) or your encounters won't live up to their CR.

tyckspoon
2009-04-15, 07:39 PM
Er.. more detail? Level? What technique is he actually using? Is there swift/free movement involved? Greater Manyshot? If none of those are involved, odds are either your enemies or the rest of the party are just waaaaay too weak; a Scout getting a single Skirmish attack isn't all that impressive.

That said, it is precision damage, so a straight-up Scout has trouble with all the same things a Rogue does.

Jarrick
2009-04-15, 07:43 PM
Force him to fight farther than 30ft away.
Alternatively, lure him into melee with one group of baddies, have him get separated by one of those nasty wall spells from an invisable enemy spellcaster and attack the rest of the party with summoned monsters on the next round. :smallsmile:

SoD
2009-04-15, 07:45 PM
Wow. And I was expecting a "he's too weak and innefective" problem! What is the rest of the party comprised of, what are some things he's decimated, is he skirmish dependant, what level are they at, etc. Then we can be more helpful. Also, any houserules?

But as it's been said, anything immune to sneak attack is immune to skirmish. And they will make him curl up and cry.

Frosty
2009-04-15, 08:00 PM
Unless you're doing something wrong, your Scout should be in no shape way or form wrecking your campaign. Did you give him like 3x wealth or something?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 08:07 PM
Yeah, Scouts are...difficult to break. It's possible to build them as light-armor tanks, but really, other than a Swift Ambusher they'll almost always be dealing far less damage than a Rogue. I love the class, but those are the breaks. What's his race, and what is he doing in-combat? What's his general method of movement?

ocato
2009-04-15, 08:08 PM
Throwing a completely decked out invisible flying uber-caster at a party that is getting heavily outclassed by a scout might not necessarily be the road to success. They might call B-S when spells start flying 'out of no where'. Alternatively, if you start doing things just to stop the scout, (s)he may feel that (s)he's being targeted specifically and feel unwelcome or get mad.

This might sound weird, but I'd sit down with your other players and try to figure out what's wrong/help them get their characters up to the scout's level of power before you start hiking up encounter difficulty.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-04-15, 08:23 PM
Terrain:
Make it rough or even overly smooth to prevent running and require balance checks (think loose stones or ice here)
Make it slowing, having casters use entangling roots and the like on the area or just naturally thick undergrowth, thorns are also good to make people think twice about running around willy-nilly.
Make it contain other natural slowing features like marshes where sections even have to be swam in, or hills where slopes slow rushes.
Of cause make sure the monsters can get around okay though.

Z-axis:
Use flying creatures and force them to use ranged attacks
Ambushing monsters are nice for having fortification or hard to get to areas, think ledges or up trees so climbing is required to close distance
Use better mobile monsters, ones with faster speed who favour ranged attacks
Use magic users who can use terrain manipulation and direct mobility hindering spells
Use big heavy hitting monsters with reach who'll make them pay for closing the distance and pay again for being so close
Of cause use crit immune monsters (undead constructs oozes etc)

Minor improvements:
Fortified armour can make some key monsters immune to critical attacks and in lesser upgrades give other lesser monsters at least soak some of the crit based attacks
Cover concealment and casting based concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicshield.htm) will also slow him down a bit, but will equally cause issues with the rest of the party

The rest of the party:
They exist, throw monsters in that play to their strengths and soon they will be able to take the limelight, if you have a cleric undead fulfil this role perfectly for instance, simply think what they are good against and use slightly more of that to give them a leg up.

If all else fails?
Well look at whats making them so powerful, did you accidentally give them a magical item which is out of their league? Are they taking advantage of a houserule you didn't think would be that unbalanced? Are they simply using a powerful combo which you never saw coming?
In these cases sometimes you just have to apologise and take away their toys until they're back on par with the power level they should be at. Its not pretty, so other methods should be considered first, but sometimes its needed.

In fairness though, more information would help refine this reply into something more targeted, but hopefully something here is helpful =)

ocato
2009-04-15, 09:08 PM
Another thought, actually: Check his sheet.

While it isn't necessarily the only solution, sometimes when one player is absurdly strong compared to the rest of the party, something isn't right (almost always unintentionally). For example, in my 4e game, the Ranger was adding his dexterity to his twin strike and dealing absurd low-level damage. Just do a little research on how scouts work and what he's doing. If something he's doing doesn't grok with the rules, ask him about it. Just be careful that you aren't being accusatory or trying to pin it on him as cheating. Chances are, if something is off, he doesn't know it's off.

Telonius
2009-04-15, 09:42 PM
I'm also a bit puzzled as to how a Scout is outshining the rest of the group. I strongly suspect there's a rule that's not being applied as it's supposed to be. Remember that unless he has the Greater Manyshot feat (plain old Manyshot won't cut it), or has a level of Monk and the Sparring Dummy of the Master, he's only going to be able to get off one arrow per round that adds his Skirmish damage. You can't use Rapid Shot with Skirmish at all, since Rapid Shot requires a full-round action.

Even if he gets a full Skirmish off with Greater Manyshot (that is, 3 arrows at +5d6 per at level 17), that's 15d6, or average 52.5 extra damage above the normal arrow damage. A standard greatsword-wielding Fighter with Shock Trooper should be able to get that without breaking a sweat.

Make sure you're applying Skirmish only when the enemy is 30 feet away or closer.

Possible ways to annoy him: a Monk (level 6 or higher) with a Quarterstaff.
Level 2 bonus feat: Deflect Arrows.
Level 6 bonus feat: Improved Disarm.
Strategy: If Monk loses initiative, deflect the arrow. On the start of his turn, use your faster movement to close. Attempt to disarm, using the Quarterstaff two-handed.

Monk bonus to Disarm attempt: +4 (two handed weapon) +4 (Improved Grapple)
Scout penalty: -4 (not a melee weapon)

Your BAB will be the same as the Scout's, so you'll effectively have a +12 on your disarm roll. You can run up the score here by taking weapon proficiency in Spiked Chain or Ranseur, or by pumping up your Strength, but it's probably unnecessary.


Yay, I'm useful!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 09:47 PM
Yay, I'm useful!You do realize that a Fighter does it better, right?

Flickerdart
2009-04-15, 09:55 PM
You do realize that a Fighter does it better, right?
Monk can run faster, so he doesn't have to eat arrows.

monty
2009-04-15, 09:57 PM
Monk can run faster, so he doesn't have to eat arrows.

Potion of haste.

Asbestos
2009-04-15, 10:00 PM
You do realize that a Fighter does it better, right?

Most of the time yes, in this case... not really. The monk gets deflect arrows for free and isn't going to be outrun by the scout.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 10:04 PM
Most of the time yes, in this case... not really. The monk gets deflect arrows for free and isn't going to be outrun by the scout.Enhancement bonuses to speed don't stack(so boots of speed/potion of Haste/Potion of Expeditious Retreat) make the Fighter faster anyways, The Fighter can catch the Scout with just his base move speed anyways(Charge!!!), and the Fighters got enough bonus feats to easily get the same things as the Monk.

Asbestos
2009-04-15, 10:09 PM
Not going to get drawn into a 'monks suck' discussion.

BOTH the fighter and the monk are perfectly able to do what we want them to do in this situation. The fighter has to be slightly more purposefully built for it though than the monk who can be pretty much off the shelf.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 10:11 PM
Nothing stops the scout from having one of those either.Except it doesn't stack with his speed bonus. It's enhancement, just like the Monk's.

Asbestos
2009-04-15, 10:13 PM
Except it doesn't stack with his speed bonus. It's enhancement, just like the Monk's.

Yeah, I realized that almost as soon as I posted it, hence my ninja edit.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-15, 10:14 PM
I'm also a bit puzzled as to how a Scout is outshining the rest of the group. I strongly suspect there's a rule that's not being applied as it's supposed to be. Remember that unless he has the Greater Manyshot feat (plain old Manyshot won't cut it), or has a level of Monk and the Sparring Dummy of the Master, he's only going to be able to get off one arrow per round that adds his Skirmish damage. You can't use Rapid Shot with Skirmish at all, since Rapid Shot requires a full-round action..

Don't forget the Roller Skates from WotC website. They also allow 2 5 foot steps.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 10:15 PM
Don't forget the Roller Skates from WotC website. They also allow 2 5 foot steps.3x/day, IIRC.

Fawkes
2009-04-15, 10:19 PM
Make him use a baseball bat.

BONK

erikun
2009-04-15, 10:32 PM
Hey guys, I've got a Scout in one of my campaign who's giving me a headache. Most monsters I throw at him won't last long enough to bother him, and when they do, his teammates come in and make short work of them.

No offense, but it sounds like the "problem" is that your players have excellent teamwork. It's like saying the wizard is a problem because everyone else gangs up on stuff that attacks him directly. :smallbiggrin:

Other than that, the whole point of the Scout is to run away from stuff and fill it with holes. Take that away, and the Scout is basically a commoner. Pretty much must save-or-suck spells will disable him for most of the fight - Ray of Enervation and Glitterdust come to mind. Beyond that, other people's advise is sound: make sure you're all reading the rules correctly, and remember that Scouts can't deal bonus damage to undead, constructs, oozes, or a bunch of other things.

(Scouts especially hate skeletons and animated chairs. Nothing is more annoying than having all your combat skills rendered meaningless because of walking bones and furnature.)

BRC
2009-04-15, 10:37 PM
Make him use a baseball bat.

BONK

Yeah, a Baseball Bat and a Potion of Haste. But what could simulate a Shotgun (or the Force-A-Nature)

Assassin89
2009-04-15, 10:43 PM
Yeah, a Baseball Bat and a Potion of Haste. But what could simulate a Shotgun (or the Force-A-Nature)

A repeating crossbow for the Force-A-Nature.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-15, 10:45 PM
A repeating crossbow for the Force-A-Nature.Greater Manyshot is essentially a Shotgun, and many of the better Scout builds use that.

Faleldir
2009-04-15, 10:46 PM
Specifically, a repeating crossbow with splintering bolts.
Would the bat be a masterwork greatclub, or does it have its own stats somewhere?

FinalJustice
2009-04-15, 10:53 PM
If you are crying 'Annoying X!', I hate to say it, and I mean it the most objective and non-personal way possible, but you are doing it wrong.

Every single time, when a DM is 'annoyed' at a PC or a player, a reasonably sensible person can notice it from kilometers. It's normal, you are human and will ocasionally act on your feelings. When that happens, the Scout player will have not much more than your good sense between between him and the receiving end. Now I may be overreacting, but before going after ways render your scout less useful, I recommend you to step back and try to like the character in question as much as possible. Fellow playgrounders can suggest tons of ways to render the Scout useless (they're already doing it at as I post, the damn ninjas). Liking the character reduces drastically the chances of you overusing them. Not liking it pretty much assures you will overuse them, and it is bad when it happens.

Well, that was just some rambling from a guy who hardly ever plays, let alone DMs. But I've been on the receiving end more than once, and on the delivering end once. Neither was good. ;)

Harperfan7
2009-04-15, 11:49 PM
Dear thread poster,

Scouts are my favorite class, but they are a bit weak combat wise as they are stuck with half a rogues sneak attack 1/round without cheese. Please explain to me how this scout is doing so well.

Love,
Harperfan7

Seatbelt
2009-04-16, 01:52 AM
If you are crying 'Annoying X!', I hate to say it, and I mean it the most objective and non-personal way possible, but you are doing it wrong.

Every single time, when a DM is 'annoyed' at a PC or a player, a reasonably sensible person can notice it from kilometers. It's normal, you are human and will ocasionally act on your feelings. When that happens, the Scout player will have not much more than your good sense between between him and the receiving end. Now I may be overreacting, but before going after ways render your scout less useful, I recommend you to step back and try to like the character in question as much as possible. Fellow playgrounders can suggest tons of ways to render the Scout useless (they're already doing it at as I post, the damn ninjas). Liking the character reduces drastically the chances of you overusing them. Not liking it pretty much assures you will overuse them, and it is bad when it happens.

Well, that was just some rambling from a guy who hardly ever plays, let alone DMs. But I've been on the receiving end more than once, and on the delivering end once. Neither was good. ;)


I have a player who's followed the playground's suggestions and has a powerful build. His character is annoying as all-get-out. But he's really cool. I don't have any problems with the PC or the character, so I don't know that your post is completely relevant.




On the other hand this particular player is cheating his ass off. But even if he wasn't cheating it would still be an annoying and powerful build. That's another story though. :P

Telonius
2009-04-16, 08:10 AM
You do realize that a Fighter does it better, right?

The idea is to take the Scout down a peg. Which would do that better: being defeated by a Fighter, or being defeated by a Monk? :smallwink:

Asbestos
2009-04-16, 08:44 AM
The idea is to take the Scout down a peg. Which would do that better: being defeated by a Fighter, or being defeated by a Monk? :smallwink:

Being defeated by a Samurai.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-16, 08:47 AM
Being defeated by a Samurai.

Commoner ?

Eldariel
2009-04-16, 08:48 AM
Commoner ?

Half the CR.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-16, 08:50 AM
With levels in Expert, Aristocrat and Survivor so his attack bonus is preternaturally low.

Harperfan7
2009-04-16, 08:53 PM
With levels in Expert, Aristocrat and Survivor so his attack bonus is preternaturally low.

That shouldn't matter. Base attack improves by either .50, .75, or 1.00 every level. A wizard 1/sorcerer 1 would have a bab of +1 (.50 + .50).

ocato
2009-04-16, 09:00 PM
Using fractional Base Attack, yes. However by RAW/standard rules, a Level 1 Wizard/L1 Sorcerer has a base attack of fail 0

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-16, 09:15 PM
Also, Survivor doesn't advance BaB. One of the reasons it sucks so badly as a PC choice.

Evil the Cat
2009-04-16, 09:45 PM
The OP really needs to actually give some details before anything useful can be said, unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have checked this thread since the original post.

Scouts can be solid characters, but they're unlikely to be game-breakers.

BlueWizard
2009-04-17, 02:39 AM
Undead/Constucts/Oozes

Os1ris09
2009-04-18, 09:54 PM
Yeah, a Baseball Bat and a Potion of Haste. But what could simulate a Shotgun (or the Force-A-Nature)

Ugh.... Guys this isn't Fall Out 3 and thier probably not fighting Rad-Roaches :smallbiggrin:

Assassin89
2009-04-18, 09:57 PM
Ugh.... Guys this isn't Fall Out 3 and thier probably not fighting Rad-Roaches :smallbiggrin:

We are not talking about Fallout 3, but Team Fortress 2 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/5032/).

If one compares the OP's predicament to that of a game of TF2, sometimes the best way to beat a scout is with another scout, or have a spy sneak up on the scout. In other words, use similar tactics to the enemy or use invisibility.

Eldariel
2009-04-18, 09:59 PM
Could someone please explain why this thread is still alive even though OP hasn't answered...well, since the OP?

Keld Denar
2009-04-19, 01:23 AM
Could someone please explain why this thread is still alive even though OP hasn't answered...well, since the OP?

Obligatory Snuggles reference as proof that in the absence of the OP, threads have the ability to evolve into Over-Cat Deities! What will this thread mutate into? I dunno, but I call dibs if it grows a prehensile tail!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-19, 01:51 AM
Obligatory Snuggles reference as proof that in the absence of the OP, threads have the ability to evolve into Over-Cat Deities! What will this thread mutate into? I dunno, but I call dibs if it grows a prehensile tail!

I am tempted to dub this the Snuggles Paradox:

If the OP abandons a thread, it will be far be longer than if he had stayed. However, the chance that his question will actually be addressed remains the same, regardless of OP conduct

VirOath
2009-04-19, 02:10 AM
Dear thread poster,

Scouts are my favorite class, but they are a bit weak combat wise as they are stuck with half a rogues sneak attack 1/round without cheese. Please explain to me how this scout is doing so well.

Love,
Harperfan7

Note: Only a very directed scout build will have one shot a round.

Unless it's a Greater Manyshot build, Ranger 16/ Scout 4 with the feat for dual stacking those classes for Favored Enemies and Skirmish Damage might have Shot On The Run, which would allow them to move their full movement (Still allowing the needed 10 feet even in rough terrain) and make a full attack with their bow, and getting the benefit of Rapid Shot as well.

And the above can be done with free movement (Or pounce for melee builds), which Person_Man has provided an excellent list for here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

And alot of it isn't "Cheese"

tyckspoon
2009-04-19, 04:53 PM
Unless it's a Greater Manyshot build, Ranger 16/ Scout 4 with the feat for dual stacking those classes for Favored Enemies and Skirmish Damage might have Shot On The Run, which would allow them to move their full movement (Still allowing the needed 10 feet even in rough terrain) and make a full attack with their bow, and getting the benefit of Rapid Shot as well.


"The attack action" =/= "a full attack." Shot On The Run lets you blend your Standard and Move actions together; it doesn't let you take a normal Move action in addition to a Full Round action. You still get just one shot that way.

elonin
2009-04-19, 08:36 PM
I've never understood why archer builds are used at all. I've tried but couldnt' produce much damage at all from them. My personal favorite scout build involves levels of dervish. Pounce is also good here.

Keld Denar
2009-04-19, 08:42 PM
With Greater Manyshot, you are making almost as many attacks as you would on a full attack, except as a standard action. Combine that with nearly full BAB and a good dex and you have a great chance to connect with all arrows. Greater Manyshot explicitly allows you to gain precision damage on all arrows, so you'll be stacking on a fair number of bonus dice. Take the feat Improved Scirmish for more dice, and as a Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) Ranger, cast Sniper's Shot in any round you qualify for Sneak Attack with as well for even MORE dice.

Perfection incarnate? Nah. Does it work? Yea, it works.

Zincorium
2009-04-19, 08:53 PM
Only problem is that while Greater Manyshot works fine...

What are you doing until you qualify for it? There's a large area of play where skirmish 1/round is no longer contributing very much, but still have to spend all your feats on stuff that doesn't work with skirmish so you can take greater manyshot at the soonest opportunity.

Scout practically demands the use of *some* cheese.

elonin
2009-04-19, 09:12 PM
Outside of skirmish the damage output is low compared to melee.