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VerdugoExplode
2009-04-16, 02:05 PM
My DM and I have had a recent argument over a cleric's spell casting. I hold the position that while a cleric needs to pray at a specific time to gain their spells the spells themselves do not dissipate until they are cast. So if a cleric didn't cast any spells and had no desire to change their spell list they would retain their spells indefinitely until they are cast. He says that a cleric would lose their spells every day at the same time and would therefor need to pray daily for their spells. We couldn't really find anything definitive in the PHB and I was wondering which of us is correct, ideally with references to the PHB for proof or at least support.

highkaizer
2009-04-16, 02:15 PM
I see where your DM is coming from. If a Cleric kept their spell list until they are cast, then there isn't much stopping a Cleric from changing their spell list whenever they want.

The PHB also says "Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation of supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells". This implies that the spells dissipate after a set amount of time. I see where you're coming from, though.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-04-16, 02:49 PM
I'd say you're right.
Can't find any prooflinks or such, but think of it fluffwise:
a wizard preparing his spells actually casts each of them, saving the last bit for later when he needs them to finish the effect. The magical energy is bound within his mind and he just has to release it.
The cleric would be granted the same effect by his deity, so the energy is already allotted and the spells are ready. Can't think why it would dissipate for nothing or without explicit reason such as the cleric willing to be granted a different set of spells. After all, clerics are valuable servants to the deity and incapacitating them at a crucial moment would be unwise.

What prevents you from praying again anyway?

VerdugoExplode
2009-04-16, 03:08 PM
Well, my main problem comes primarily from hypothetical situations. Mainly those in which it would be impractical or dangerous such as a long running battle during which one wouldn't have an hours worth of prayer time available. Or perhaps the necessity of showing up somewhere at dawn which, according to his rules, would completely strip me of spellcasting for the rest of the day.

Lamech
2009-04-16, 03:55 PM
If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Please note that if you are prevented from preping spells for some reason then you don't miss your prep time. A non-calm enviorment counts, so if your locked in battle you will be fine. Nor would the DM have any basis for wiping your spells. If you "need to be somewhere" are you prevented from preping? Thats up to your DM. If you want to be a jerk let it "slip" about your spell casting requirements, then your party can keep you from preparing spells when they need you to do something, and not be praying.

Now on to if you lose spells, the player's handbook doesn't say anything about it. Wizards don't and it is implied you prepare much like a wizard, so no I don't think you would.

Kroy
2009-04-16, 05:54 PM
My DM and I have had a recent argument over a cleric's spell casting. I hold the position that while a cleric needs to pray at a specific time to gain their spells the spells themselves do not dissipate until they are cast. So if a cleric didn't cast any spells and had no desire to change their spell list they would retain their spells indefinitely until they are cast. He says that a cleric would lose their spells every day at the same time and would therefor need to pray daily for their spells. We couldn't really find anything definitive in the PHB and I was wondering which of us is correct, ideally with references to the PHB for proof or at least support.

I would rule that you are in the right. I mean, it never saws you lose them. Plus, from Fluff point of view, why would your god take away your power?

Thane of Fife
2009-04-16, 05:59 PM
I would rule that you are in the right. I mean, it never saws you lose them. Plus, from Fluff point of view, why would your god take away your power?

Umm... because you didn't bother to pray to him? I'd be a bit miffed, too.

I would certainly expect that the cleric pray every day or not get spell access.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-16, 06:20 PM
Umm... because you didn't bother to pray to him? I'd be a bit miffed, too.

I would certainly expect that the cleric pray every day or not get spell access.

But not all gods are evil, or selfish. Therefore, why take away his spells prepared, especially since if he hasn't prayed he likely has a good reason.

Also, several spells, like Raise Dead and the like seem to imply that they would could lose spells upon being raised.

lsfreak
2009-04-16, 06:58 PM
I'd say they stay over. "Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." I read that as regaining the ones you used. The unused slots have no need to be regained, therefore any unused spells stay prepared.

I can see both ways, but saying that they suddenly lose all their spell slots when they're supposed to pray seems far too limiting.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-16, 07:25 PM
I'm with "Unless a divine spellcaster prays to gain spells, he/she loses access to any divine spellcasting abilities until next day".

I'm quite aware that nowhere in the descriptive text does it say "you lose all prepared spells you have yet to cast", but it does not (unlike arcane spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)), indicate any unused spell slots would carry over either.

Since a divine spellcaster is entirely dependent on its deity/entity they serve, it'd be DM's call whether the deity takes away all unused spellslots or leave them as is. I'm more with taking away the spellslots though :)

Kylarra
2009-04-16, 07:47 PM
Keep in mind though, that you're not required to serve a deity as a cleric, so "unknown primordial concept xyz" is unlikely to care whether or not "minor humanoid* abc" sent up a call for spells that day and spitefully take away the prepared spells because they're late for a scheduled call.


*By no means am I assuming humanoids are the only divine casters.

Bugbeartrap
2009-04-16, 08:36 PM
I dont think there is an answer in RAW. I personally would allow spells to carry over. To use a situation from Forgotten Realms novels, when Lolth stopped granting spells to her clerics, they kept the spells until they were cast. Some even held unused spells for months. Now, if we want an answer that actually uses the rules, I'm going to have to look through City of the Spider Queen to see if clerics still had some spells kept.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-04-16, 08:37 PM
Why would a cleric lose the spells?
1) The spells dissipate over time
2) The source of their power is angry at me for not praying.

I find #2 moot, because if you're the type of cleric that skips prayer without reason you won't be getting spells in the first place. And with that in mind, I see no reason for #1 to happen either. The force granting your spells grants them all at once (as opposed to arcane power, where large portions of the spell are pre-cast and would therefore dissipate); and as long as you haven't died I don't see why your master would be unavailable to grant the spell.

Thane of Fife
2009-04-16, 08:51 PM
But not all gods are evil, or selfish. Therefore, why take away his spells prepared, especially since if he hasn't prayed he likely has a good reason.

Also, several spells, like Raise Dead and the like seem to imply that they would could lose spells upon being raised.

But these same gods don't just give spells to everyone they like - there exist criteria for who the gods grant their power to. Perhaps the cleric needs to ritually cleanse himself through prayer before he can hold the god's power. Perhaps the god is trying to teach his cleric that he needs to always say thank you to those who do him favors. There are plenty of reasons why a good deity wouldn't necessarily grant spells to someone who has missed the one thing he has to do every day to be given spells.

If he has a good reason, then that's fine, but it had better be a good reason.


Keep in mind though, that you're not required to serve a deity as a cleric, so "unknown primordial concept xyz" is unlikely to care whether or not "minor humanoid* abc" sent up a call for spells that day and spitefully take away the prepared spells because they're late for a scheduled call.


*By no means am I assuming humanoids are the only divine casters.

It doesn't matter if it's a deity - the cleric still is gaining power from some concept or force which is demanding faith and obedience. And who's taking away spells? They simply aren't being granted. Spells aren't a right - they're a privelege.


I find #2 moot, because if you're the type of cleric that skips prayer without reason you won't be getting spells in the first place.

That is to some extent my point - if you have a really good reason, then fine - you can put it off until you're not at a critical moment. But I expect that you'll be praying as soon as you get the chance.

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-16, 09:04 PM
If a cleric doesn't pray for new spells, I would let them keep whatever spells they currently have prepared for as long as they last (i.e. until they are used up) because I wouldn't want to be a d!ck to my players.

Also, it maintains some consistency between cleric casting and EVERY OTHER spellcasting class.

Kylarra
2009-04-16, 09:21 PM
It doesn't matter if it's a deity - the cleric still is gaining power from some concept or force which is demanding faith and obedience. And who's taking away spells? They simply aren't being granted. Spells aren't a right - they're a privelege.When I say "primordial force xyz", I'm referring to the fact that the PHB explicitly says you can choose to worship no deity at all, thus it's not [necessarily] a force or concept demanding faith and/or obedience at all. Thus there's no reason for already prepared spells to disappear like the wind. "Oops, there goes midnight, your carriage is a pumpkin again :( "

Thane of Fife
2009-04-16, 10:12 PM
When I say "primordial force xyz", I'm referring to the fact that the PHB explicitly says you can choose to worship no deity at all, thus it's not [necessarily] a force or concept demanding faith and/or obedience at all. Thus there's no reason for already prepared spells to disappear like the wind. "Oops, there goes midnight, your carriage is a pumpkin again :( "

Not having a 3.5 PHB close to hand, I cannot respond directly. Since the main concept of Divine Magic is the idea that it's coming from somewhere other than the self, however, I would argue that there is always something deciding to give the cleric spells - the SRD certainly implies that.

Whether it's "Welcoming the Dawn", praying for the sun's return at twilight, holding a lunch in the name of the harvest god, self-flagellation at dusk, or whatever, part of being a cleric is revering something greater than yourself - if you can't take an hour out of your busy schedule once a day, then perhaps cleric isn't the right calling for you.

(Incidentally, I wouldn't allow clerics to not take a deity in my games, and I'd be hard-pressed to allow them to worship a force or philosophy, either. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.)



Also, it maintains some consistency between cleric casting and EVERY OTHER spellcasting class.

It's interesting, because that's part of the reason why I would do the opposite. Clerics shouldn't be like wizards (at least, not in my opinion).

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-17, 06:32 AM
It's interesting, because that's part of the reason why I would do the opposite. Clerics shouldn't be like wizards (at least, not in my opinion).

IMO, consistency is always good. The less exceptions I have to remember, the better.

Starsinger
2009-04-17, 06:56 AM
The PHB also says "Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation of supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells". This implies that the spells dissipate after a set amount of time.

Umm.. no it doesn't. You can't regain something you very well didn't lose. I mean I guess I can almost see where you're coming from. But it seems especially counter productive, if we put on our "in-game" hats, and pretend that Divine Magic actually feels special, for a god to take away Divine Magic (which is supposed to feel special!) right before/during a cleric's (or Paladin's or whatever) special bonding time.



Also, it maintains some consistency between cleric casting and EVERY OTHER spellcasting class.
It's interesting, because that's part of the reason why I would do the opposite. Clerics shouldn't be like wizards (at least, not in my opinion).

You know, that's why I didn't let clerics prepare spells in 3.5, I found the concept of "Okay, Pelor, I want two searing lights, a shield of faith, maybe a sanctuary, oh! And give me an inflict light wounds, I may have to heal the necropolitan, even though that's against what you stand for." to be rather silly, all in the name of keeping Vancian casting the same for Wizards, Clerics, and Druids. But that's neither here nor there...

Mindstab_Thrull
2009-04-17, 07:42 AM
OK, try this for a starting point. PHB, p179, under Preparing Divine Spells, first sentence:

Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences.

I read this as: Use the rules for wizards with respect to spells, except as noted below.

Now, flip back a couple pages to page 177, and read over that entire one paragraph:

Before setting out on an adventure with her companions, Mialee pores over her spellbook and prepares two 1st-level spells (one for being a 1st-level wizard and an additional one as her 1st-level bonus spell for Intelligence 15) and three 0-level spells. (Arcane spellcasters often call their 0-level spells “cantrips.”) From the spells in her spellbook, she chooses charm person, sleep, detect magic (twice), and light. While traveling, she and her party are attacked by gnoll raiders, and she casts her sleep spell. After she and her companions have dispatched the gnolls, she casts detect magic to see whether any of the gnolls’ items are enchanted. (They’re not.) The party then camps for the night in the wilderness. Come morning, Mialee can once again prepare spells from her spellbook. She already has charm person, detect magic (once), and light prepared from the day before. She chooses to abandon her light spell and then prepare sleep, detect magic, and ghost sound. It takes her a little over half an hour to prepare these spells because they represent a little over half of her daily capacity.

Note that Mialee hasn't lost any of her spells except the ones she cast. As I read it, Jozan would be in the same position, except he'd have different spells memorized and do them off Wisdom instead.

Does that help any?

kamikasei
2009-04-17, 07:55 AM
If a Cleric kept their spell list until they are cast, then there isn't much stopping a Cleric from changing their spell list whenever they want.

Can you expand on that? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-17, 08:00 AM
Deities and Demigods says, on page 29, that a deity cannot do a damn thing about a spell once it's in a cleric's mind. He can refuse to grant spells, but if he granted his cleric his full allotment of spells and the cleric didn't cast any for a week, and didn't pray at all for that entire week, the cleric would still have those spells in his mind.

Hey, in fact...


Grant Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells)
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

Telonius
2009-04-17, 08:34 AM
Jack Vance strikes again! That's also how I would generally rule it. The Cleric can only recover spells at a particular time each day. There's no "spend 15 minutes to prepare one anytime" option like the Wizard has, so there's no danger of the Cleric swapping spells out randomly.