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Thurbane
2009-04-16, 09:29 PM
...the Great Lion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan) of Narnia. Often cited as being analoguous to a certain real-world religious figure(s) (can we please steer clear of this, lest this thread be locked).

So how would you do it? Or has someone already done it?

I'm thinking Awakened Lion/Exemplar/Celestial/Exalted/Saint/Creature of Legend, or somesuch... I'm not sure what class levels (if any) he should have - Paladin? Cleric? Favored Soul?

I'd prefer a build that was 3.5 legal, rather than homebrewed or handwaved - a lot of the templates and such I would like to apply wouldn't legally stack on the same creature.

Cheers - T

Eldariel
2009-04-16, 09:40 PM
Statting deities... Well, give him divine ranks for starters. I think the stats of a greater deity would work fine. So Divine Rank 20. That gets him a lot of the stuff he should have (like, y'know, immortality as per The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe).

Other than that, yeah, I'd say Paragon Awakened Lion. And Cleric seems to work for the class - all the stuff he does could really be replicated with spells and it's obvious that he didn't use the full extent of his abilities over the course of the books. Besides, his powers do seem divine. Cleric of Himself would work fine (or the "great magic").

So Paragon Awakened Dire Lion of Legend Cleric 40 seems about right. The Dire Lion HD should be advanced to either 16 (to keep him at Large) or full 24 (for Huge). As he clearly isn't Huge, I'd be tempted to keep it at 16 and just ride the Cleric-levels for the HD.

I suppose you could add Saint too - it's not like he wouldn't qualify, and it'd be a nice bonus.


EDIT: Apparently there's no such thing as "Legendary Lion". Bah. I suppose it's easy enough to derive from the other Legendary Animals though. I went with Dire for this one with the best stand-in.

Thurbane
2009-04-16, 09:51 PM
Hmm, I guess I'd better rephrase my request to stat out an avatar of Aslan, rather than as a deity...

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-16, 09:56 PM
to quote the SRD:

Avatar
Prerequisites
Divine rank 6, Cha 29.

Benefit
An avatar serves as a deity’s alter ego, effectively allowing the deity to be in two or more places at the same time. An avatar is an extension of a deity. The deity senses and knows everything the avatar senses and knows and vice versa. Each avatar counts as a remote location where the deity is sensing and communicating. A lesser deity can have up to five avatars at once, an intermediate deity can have up to ten, and a greater deity can have up to twenty avatars at once. It takes a deity one year to create an avatar or replace a destroyed avatar. The process does not require any special effort on the deity’s part. An avatar must be created in the deity’s own realm. If the deity has the Divine Creation salient divine ability, the deity can use it to create a new avatar anywhere. However, the deity must rest afterward as noted in the Divine Creation ability description. An avatar is a less powerful version of a deity, created by modifying the deity’s statistics, that has the following characteristics.

Divine Rank
The avatar’s divine rank is half that of the deity (round down). This decrease in divine rank affects many of the avatar’s statistics and abilities, including bonuses to attack rolls, damage, saves, checks, and Armor Class, damage reduction, resistances, number of salient divine abilities and bonus salient divine abilities, uses per day of domain powers, saving throw DCs against spell-like abilities, range of senses, automatic actions, magic items it can create, and extent of divine aura. The deity’s ability scores, speed, class levels, and Hit Dice are unchanged.

Divine Abilities
The avatar has salient divine abilities according to its own divine rank. The deity chooses which of its abilities the avatar has when creating the avatar. The avatar cannot have a salient divine ability that is not available to a deity of its own rank, nor can it use a salient divine ability if it doesn’t meet the prerequisites. An avatar cannot have the Avatar or Possess Mortal salient divine abilities.

An avatar does not have any remote sensing or remote communication powers.

So the real changes depend on the Divine Rank of Aslan himself.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-16, 09:57 PM
Hmm, I guess I'd better rephrase my request to stat out an avatar of Aslan, rather than as a deity...
I probably wouldn't bother. In both the books and the movies, Aslan moves with the force of plot. His opposition is terrified of him - always. Whenever he gets into a fight of any sort, he simply wins. About the only reason he doesn't simply do everything himself is some unspecified code and old law that he follows (which gives a convenient plot excuse for what he does and doesn't do).

Eldariel
2009-04-16, 10:00 PM
Hmm, I guess I'd better rephrase my request to stat out an avatar of Aslan, rather than as a deity...

Then I'll just go with the Paragon Saint Awakened Dire Lion (16 HD) of Legend Cleric x0 (it's 30 or 40, I can't decide - he's clearly epic for obvious reasons, but how epic is appropriate...). Annoyingly, both Paragon & Saint give out a bunch of Insight-bonuses, which obviously don't stack, but I think they both also give out important traits making having both worth it (for example, without both he couldn't pierce DR/Epic + Good even though I think that's precisely what he does with certain Witch).

Kobold_Love
2009-04-16, 10:01 PM
Actually, he seems more like a Hero Deity (or Quasi-Deity as of 3.x) to me, as with the other fictional character he was based on (which will not be mentioned...).

He can clearly be killed, though it may be within his means to eventually return. This is one thing which makes me think of it as a Hero-/Quasi-Deity.

In addition, he is up in the front lines of a war between mortals. I always figure a true deity to be a bit above that. Now a greater deity can simply wipe out an entire army with a blink of an eye. What need would it have to claw and bit at his follower's military foes? And if you go by the default suggestion in Deities & Demigods saying that the gods have made an agreement not to interfere directly, then it would not be possible for him to do it.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-16, 10:31 PM
You could always rename Talisid from BoED :)

Vexxation
2009-04-16, 11:11 PM
I probably wouldn't bother. In both the books and the movies, Aslan moves with the force of plot. His opposition is terrified of him - always. Whenever he gets into a fight of any sort, he simply wins. About the only reason he doesn't simply do everything himself is some unspecified code and old law that he follows (which gives a convenient plot excuse for what he does and doesn't do).

Yeah. Pretty much every book can be summed up as follows:

Good guys: "Oh, crap! Bad people! We fight!"
Bad guys: "Rawr, I'm superior! Watch as I steamroll you! Grawr!"
Good guys: "Aaaaahhh! Run away!" "Okay, we're safe. Let's find Aslan."
Aslan: "Sup dudes?"
Good guys: "Save our weak, inept selves! Fight social Darwinism!"
Aslan: "Rawr!"
Bad guys: "Aw, frick!"
Aslan: "Oh-yeah, who's the bomb? I'm the bomb. Peace, fools."
Good guys: [swoon]

So really, Aslan is pretty much Pun-Pun who Permanent PAO'd himself into a lion.

Eldariel
2009-04-17, 12:41 AM
Out of interest, I decided to do basic calculations for the version I suggested:

For reference, we're talking about Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Saint [BoED] Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Dire Lion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direLion.htm) (16 HD to stay Large + 2 from Awaken which as non-natural advancement don't increase size = 18 HD) of Legend [MMII] Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) 30


First of all, let's awaken Aslan. Considering circumstances, let's assume Awaken was Maximized. This gives us:
Str 25
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 18
Wis 12
Cha 13

as a baseline. We also get two attribute increases from the HD so:

Str 25
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 19
Wis 13
Cha 13

Then let's make it a Paragon creature:
Str 40
Dex 30
Con 32
Int 34
Wis 28
Cha 28

Monster of Legend:
Str 50
Dex 36
Con 42
Int 36
Wis 30
Cha 32

Saint:
Str 50
Dex 36
Con 44
Int 36
Wis 32
Cha 36

Cleric 30 (ends up granting a total of 8 stat increases at 2 (due to 18 HD), 6, etc. up to 30):
Str 50
Dex 36
Con 42
Int 36
Wis 38
Cha 32

I'm a wee disappointed - even a sorry Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon) has him beat on all counts except Dex. Oh well, tossing the inherent bonuses on top of those helps and if it really comes down to it, we can just pull down some epic spells to fix his stats.

Outsider (Native, Fire)
HD: 18d8+30d8 maximized = 384. Con grants +16 and Paragon +12 per HD for 1344 extra. Total of 1728.
Initiative: 13 Dex + 4 Improved Initiative = 17
Speed: 120ft
DR 10/Epic & Evil
Fast Healing 20
Spell Resistance 67
AC 10+10 Natural Armor+12 Luck+14 Insight+13 Dex-1 Size...wait, was that it? Huge...ly disappointing = 58, Touch 48, Flat-Footed 45
Saves 29/22/29 base, +10 insight from Paragon, total 55 Fort (+4 vs. poisons), 45 Dex, 53 Will
Immune to Fire, Acid, Cold, Electricity & Petrification

BAB 36
Attacks: 2xClaw 36 BAB+20 Str+25 Luck+1 WF-1 Size=81, 1d6+20 Str+20 Luck = 1d6+40
Bite 36 BAB+20 Str+25 Luck-2 Multiattack-1 Size=78, 1d8+10 Str+20 Luck = 1d8+30+Poison 1d6 Str, DC 46
2xRake +80 1d6+10+20 = 1d6+30
Penetrate DR/Epic & Good & Magic, +1d6 Holy vs. Evil, +1d8 Holy vs. Evil Undead & Evil Outsiders


Pounce
Improved Grab
Grapple 36 BAB + 20 Str + 25 Luck + 4 Size = +85

Breath Weapon 3d6 Fire Ref Half DC 10+24 HD+16 Con+2 Saint+4 Monster of Legend = 46
Frightful Presence DC 10+24 HD+11 Cha+2 Saint+4 Monster of Legend = 41

Spell Reflection
Darkvision
Low-Light Vision
Tongues
Magic Circle Against Evil & Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (double strength)

If dealt damage, 1d4 Fire to attacker & 1d6 Holy to Evil/1d8 to Evil Undead/Outsiders if dealt damage to with natural weapons

Spell-Likes:
CL 15: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility 3/day
CL 63: Guidance, Bless, Resistance, Virtue At Will

Spellcasting:
Cleric 35 (5 from Monster of Legends)

Bonus Feats:
Multiattack & Improved Initiative

CR 42

I think that's about it. Phew, mightily disappointing especially for all that typing. Seems like he's making a ton out of that spellcasting 'cause else he wouldn't be as kickass as he is.

Thurbane
2009-04-17, 12:43 AM
Sheesh - I'm still getting my terminology muddled - I meant Aspect rather than Avatar... :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

...basically, something that could actually take part in a pre-epic, but still high level, game...

Salt_Crow
2009-04-17, 12:59 AM
Sheesh - I'm still getting my terminology muddled - I meant Aspect rather than Avatar... :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

...basically, something that could actually take part in a pre-epic, but still high level, game...

I think Lion of Talisid PrC (as suggested numerous times by other people) would be ideal if you want to be an exalted lion-like entity.

bosssmiley
2009-04-17, 08:13 AM
With a stone knife, while he's tied down on a slab.

...

Oh, stat.

I'd just use the old 2E Creature of Legend proto-template (from the second Planescape monster book IIRC) on either a dire lion, or a wingless lamassu. It kicks the 3E version into touch for making definitive creatures.

Dacia Brabant
2009-04-17, 09:08 AM
I would just point out that in "The Magician's Nephew" Aslan is depicted as creating the universe, or at least the universe Narnia is located in, so he really ought to be considered an Overdeity. How many divine ranks does Ao have? Aslan's should be about the same.

Would an Overdeity even have an Aspect? One could have an Avatar I suppose, Ao used one briefly (though I'm not sure if it was ever statted out) but an Aspect seems like it would be too finite to be linked to an Overgod. Then again, I suppose that would fit him in the role he played in the first book, though I'd just make his stats whatever they need to be for him to win at the end.

Kobold_Love
2009-04-17, 09:18 AM
... Ao used one briefly (though I'm not sure if it was ever statted out) ...

Really?

Did they describe what it looked like? I always wondered what he physically resembles.

Xenogears
2009-04-17, 09:46 AM
I would just point out that in "The Magician's Nephew" Aslan is depicted as creating the universe, or at least the universe Narnia is located in, so he really ought to be considered an Overdeity. How many divine ranks does Ao have? Aslan's should be about the same.

Would an Overdeity even have an Aspect? One could have an Avatar I suppose, Ao used one briefly (though I'm not sure if it was ever statted out) but an Aspect seems like it would be too finite to be linked to an Overgod. Then again, I suppose that would fit him in the role he played in the first book, though I'd just make his stats whatever they need to be for him to win at the end.

Seeing as though there are other worlds already besides Narnia its more like he created his own plane. Cant regular gods do that too? Oh wait their godly realm is only 100 miles at divine rank 20..... okay so maybe that is a bit off...

quick_comment
2009-04-17, 09:54 AM
Seeing as though there are other worlds already besides Narnia its more like he created his own plane. Cant regular gods do that too? Oh wait their godly realm is only 100 miles at divine rank 20..... okay so maybe that is a bit off...

Its implied that Aslan is Jesus, given form in narnia. He says something about how the children know him by another name in their world. And he babbles alot about the "great emperor beyond the sea" who is his father.

arguskos
2009-04-17, 09:55 AM
Really?

Did they describe what it looked like? I always wondered what he physically resembles.
He took a form just long enough to exile the gods from their divine realms at the start of the Time of Troubles. As for his form, it wasn't really well described, however an artist on deviantart came up with something really great for him: Here you are! (http://johndowson.deviantart.com/art/Avatar-Wars-Lord-Ao-108921373)

It's not canon, since he was never described, but it's pretty neat anyways!

Dacia Brabant
2009-04-17, 10:14 AM
He took a form just long enough to exile the gods from their divine realms at the start of the Time of Troubles.

But he also appeared as an avatar at the end of "Waterdeep" after the Tablets of Fate were recovered and Midnight and Cyric ascended to godhood. It's been ages since I've read that book but I'm fairly sure he was described as a human wearing all black--I think he was supposed to be wearing a cassock or a reverend's vestments actually--with black hair and black eyes.

Kind of drab I guess but he had a whole 18th Century Puritanical feel to him, which probably fits his type as Alpha Omega. Plus the Cult of Ao that arose afterward kind of took after this, with their leaders calling themselves ministers.

Xenogears
2009-04-17, 10:35 AM
Its implied that Aslan is Jesus, given form in narnia. He says something about how the children know him by another name in their world. And he babbles alot about the "great emperor beyond the sea" who is his father.

I know. I meant a little off in the sense that if one were to assume he created Narnia as a godly realm (and to be fair the "super Narnia/Heaven" at the end of the last book is more properly his godly realm and its described as even bigger than Earth) his Divine Rank would probably be something like 10000....

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-17, 11:21 AM
I think the highest Divine Rank available is 21, in which case you are omnipotent in your own realm as the overdeity.

Drider
2009-04-17, 11:42 AM
Include bard, with perform (roar) to encourage his guys to do better in battle, and scare enemies?

Soronhen
2009-04-17, 04:29 PM
I would just point out that in "The Magician's Nephew" Aslan is depicted as creating the universe, or at least the universe Narnia is located in, so he really ought to be considered an Overdeity.

As was previously mentioned, in a few of the books, there is mention of the Emperor-over-the-sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor-Over-the-Sea), Aslan's father... just because you create a world doesn't necessarily mean you don't answer to a higher authority.

Also, if anyone knows how to find the stats for the FR demigod Nobanion, he pretty much is the aspect of Aslan in Faerun.

Dixieboy
2009-04-17, 04:42 PM
Exemplar?

Intimidate for Diplo?

theMycon
2009-04-17, 06:02 PM
...
Saint:
Str 50
Dex 36
Con 44
Int 36
Wis 32
Cha 36

Cleric 30 (ends up granting a total of 8 stat increases at 2 (due to 18 HD), 6, etc. up to 30):
Str 50
Dex 36
Con 42
Int 36
Wis 38
Cha 32
...

That's a net increase of 4, not 8.
Specifically, you decreased Con by 2, and increased Wis by 6.
Not that it's all that major, he'd still be beated by said Great Wyrm. But it's something.

Dacia Brabant
2009-04-17, 11:42 PM
As was previously mentioned, in a few of the books, there is mention of the Emperor-over-the-sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor-Over-the-Sea), Aslan's father... just because you create a world doesn't necessarily mean you don't answer to a higher authority.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, partly since I'm not sure what you're arguing against but especially since everything I have to say in response is a banned subject on this forum (real-world religion), but still... Just because the Emperor-Over-the-Sea is Aslan's "father" and the final authority figure doesn't mean that they're separate divine beings.

Mewtarthio
2009-04-18, 09:52 PM
Yeah. Pretty much every book can be summed up as follows:

Good guys: "Oh, crap! Bad people! We fight!"
Bad guys: "Rawr, I'm superior! Watch as I steamroll you! Grawr!"
Good guys: "Aaaaahhh! Run away!" "Okay, we're safe. Let's find Aslan."
Aslan: "Sup dudes?"
Good guys: "Save our weak, inept selves! Fight social Darwinism!"
Aslan: "Rawr!"
Bad guys: "Aw, frick!"
Aslan: "Oh-yeah, who's the bomb? I'm the bomb. Peace, fools."
Good guys: [swoon]

So really, Aslan is pretty much Pun-Pun who Permanent PAO'd himself into a lion.

That's not entirely fair. That's not even the majority of books. Heck, in The Silver Chair, he doesn't do much more than a mission briefing. In the conclusion to the entire series, The Last Battle, he only shows up after the fighting's done to create "Aslan's Country."


Just because the Emperor-Over-the-Sea is Aslan's "father" and the final authority figure doesn't mean that they're separate divine beings.

Aslan would still be an aspect of the EOS (and you know you're up against something big when its aspect is an overdeity). He'd be given different stats.

daggaz
2009-04-19, 02:33 AM
Aslan is an aspect of the Emperor over the Sea, with maxed divine ranks.

The Emperor over the Sea has infinite stats and abilities, think punpun, only, he never started as a kobold, he has always been. Alpha and Omega etc etc..

Thats if you are trying to stat them based on the books and the realworld analogies C.S. Lewis fully admitted they follow.

horseboy
2009-04-19, 02:38 AM
Well, they do have Traveler d20. *rimshot*

But no, I really don't think something like that should be stated out, defiantly not played. It would be like someone wanting to play Yog-Suggoth.

Thurbane
2009-04-19, 09:20 PM
OK, 3rd time lucky - I guess what I'm really asking for is a CR20 build INSPIRED by Aslan (i.e a righteous, intelligent lion). Maybe something like an Awakened Lion Saint VoP Cleric 13?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-19, 09:41 PM
...the Great Lion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan) of Narnia. Often cited as being analoguous to a certain real-world religious figure(s) (can we please steer clear of this, lest this thread be locked).

So how would you do it? Or has someone already done it?

I'm thinking Awakened Lion/Exemplar/Celestial/Exalted/Saint/Creature of Legend, or somesuch... I'm not sure what class levels (if any) he should have - Paladin? Cleric? Favored Soul?

I'd prefer a build that was 3.5 legal, rather than homebrewed or handwaved - a lot of the templates and such I would like to apply wouldn't legally stack on the same creature.

Cheers - T

Take Pelor's stats, reflavor, shake well, and done in five minutes.

AbyssKnight
2009-04-21, 12:14 PM
To suggest a slightly different way to go, instead of starting with an Awakened Dire Lion......go with an Androsphynx!

Androsphynxes already have casting ability( so class levels will stack with it),hey are lion like (you can just change the human face and wings, though I would still let him fly without the wings), and his roar would actually do something! And they are Lawful Good.

You can advance, add templates, and level up from there instead of just a lion. Much better base creature imho.

realbombchu
2009-04-21, 08:07 PM
Hi, I just wanted to agree with the person who suggested using Nobanion, from the Forgotten Realms, as a starting point. It's fitting, seeing as Aslan was Nobanion's starting point, according to what I've heard.

About Nobanion, I've tried to stat him many times, but the major hurdles I faced were the modifiers. Nobanion, for example, is only about divine rank 5, but once you add in epic rules and give him some honest-to-his-level equipment, the numbers are a bit much to remember. I can do the math, it's just remembering all of the things you need to add.

But I digress. If you want an aspect of Aslan that is not epic, I would look over some homebrewed Nobanions, and start with either a lion or a dire lion, and carefully build from there. I know that's what a lot of people have said, but it's really what I think you should do. Also, if you are new to the game, like I was when I tried to stat Nobanion (I don't know if you are), you might find this kind of frustrating once you get started, if you haven't already. It's good to try anyway, though.