Balancing houserules [4E]

[Grey Paladin]

In order to somewhat increase the resource management element/simulationism, my group has decided to include the following rules in our game:

- You can use every encounter power once every 5 minutes for free. If you use it again before the 'cooldown' ends it costs an Healing Surge
- Healing Word/etc are usable at will
- Daily powers are usable at will, but cost an Healing Surge per tier (Heroic=1, Paragon=2, Epic=3) for every use per a day after the first.

What should be the ECL of characters with the above qualities for the purpose of XP budgets?

Certain classes get far more Healing Surges than others. Rather than giving them all the same amount, what new abilities should be granted to them in order to balance the lower amount?

[Meek]

It won't affect anything XP-wise, because the game is still fundamentally pretty much the same as before. You'll just see more people taking Durable. The fact that they can blow their healing surges recovering other stuff will be outweighed by limited healing surges so that they'll still have to mind what they're doing anyway.

Some classes having less surges than others is something I wouldn't mess with for this system. I would just let them take durable more than once if they really want enough surges to abuse all these abilities with.

[tcrudisi]

I would be extremely careful with that 2nd houserule where you turn the healing powers into at-will powers.

How are you going to handle multi-classing, for starters? If I can drop a feat and get infinite heals, that's a pretty sweet deal... perhaps a bit too sweet.

Also, you are really trivializing a lot of combats. That's the thing: how tough does a monster have to be before he can drop a party when the party can do at-will heals? Probably so tough that they can't hit him, which would really slow down the game.

I would instead suggest leaving that rule alone. Let it be at 2 (or 3 if high enough level) times an encounter. If you are worried that no one will play a Leader type (why? They are so awesome in 4e, but I digress...), then wait-and-see. If, indeed, no one picks a Leader, let them know that if one of them multi-classes into a Leader type, you'll give them the full benefit of the heal. Instead of 1 time a day, they will be able to use it 2 (or 3) times an encounter. That way you are not penalizing your group for not having a healer. (Well, any more than they are already penalized, since Leaders are so much more than healers).

I'll be honest -- I don't care for the other two rules either, but they would work out without completely demolishing the encounter levels. You can actually keep the same encounter levels. If the players start abusing that system too often... well, just remember they can only take an extended rest every 16 or so hours, per the rules. When they run out of healing surges, they'll feel it when even some wimpy kobolds come a'calling and they have no healing surges or daily powers left. That should keep them from abusing the system, so you won't have to change the encounter levels any.

[JMobius]

That's... some pretty significant houseruling.

The only one I have in effect at the moment is that characters get a new At-Will power at levels 11 and 21.

[Thajocoth]

That sounds like it'd REALLY screw with 4e's balance, but whether or not your changes are balanced is impossible to tell without a few playtests because it's so significantly different.

[Doug Lampert]

It won't affect anything XP-wise, because the game is still fundamentally pretty much the same as before. You'll just see more people taking Durable. The fact that they can blow their healing surges recovering other stuff will be outweighed by limited healing surges so that they'll still have to mind what they're doing anyway.

Some classes having less surges than others is something I wouldn't mess with for this system. I would just let them take durable more than once if they really want enough surges to abuse all these abilities with.

I strongly disagree.

Healing word at will means that most likely no one ever needs to use a second wind and all surges spent for actual HP are spent with a substantial bonus added. That's a significant upgrade right there.

As for the claim that they'll burn all their surges anyway, consider Cure Serious wounds, one surge by the cleric=>two surges for anyone else at will once you hit level 6. And that's a utility, attack powers are better, if your best heroic daily attacks AREN'T worth more than one surge each then I tend to think you're doing it wrong.

At heroic tier durable is two extra uses of your best power per day! You don't think that's overpowered for a heroic feat? Con has just become everyone's second most important ability since that's the other way to get extra surges.

The reuse of powers will allow spamming of the most effective powers (turn undead repeatedly against large numbers of undead, fireball twice against encounters vulnerable to fire, ext...).

If they just spam dailies without thinking and never use their at-wills this would weaken them, but for smart players who use the bonus powers only when it's worth it this is a significant bump in power.

I'd tend to throw encounters two or three levels up at them till you see how they respond, and then adjust up or down based on actual experience.

But "boss" encounters just became a lot easier.

DougL

[Grey Paladin]

Tcrudisi: I'll consider your point on at-will Healing.

Multi-class feats stay as they were (as in, 1 Healing Word/encounter)

Doug: For bosses, I plan to just throw standard PCs at them, or, in case of monsters, give the monsters character powers.

[TheEmerged]

In order to somewhat increase the resource management element/simulationism, my group has decided to include the following rules in our game:

- You can use every encounter power once every 5 minutes for free. If you use it again before the 'cooldown' ends it costs an Healing Surge
- Healing Word/etc are usable at will
- Daily powers are usable at will, but cost an Healing Surge per tier (Heroic=1, Paragon=2, Epic=3) for every use per a day after the first.

What should be the ECL of characters with the above qualities for the purpose of XP budgets?

Certain classes get far more Healing Surges than others. Rather than giving them all the same amount, what new abilities should be granted to them in order to balance the lower amount?


#1> Won't be that big a deal. It will mostly affect utility powers as I'm reading it.

#2> Should go right out the window. That one isn't just imbalanced, it starts approaching a Will Smith "Aw <expletive> no!" imbalance. Perhaps it's more obvious for people that play a lot of MMOGs, but you *have* to restrict healing in the game or it boils down to a race to use up healing surges. In so doing you reduce the value of healing feats ("Why should I spend a feat on improving my healing, I'll just heal more often! It's a minor action anyway...") and the value of having more than one healer (our party runs with a laser cleric, a bard, and a wizard that multiclassed as a bard).

#3> This one is "left of center" -- I could see allowing something like this, but it needs a heavier penalty than a healing surge or three. I say this from some experience, because this is close to one of the penalties we experimented with for a houserule we're trying.

The daily powers are balanced around forcing characters to martial/ration their use. "Do I dare risk using the power against this boss -- when there could be *another* boss behind the curtain?" "Is this fight just the standard 'random encounter during travel', or is the orc base we're looking for nearby?"

Adding a 'recharge' feature to the otherwise 'daily' powers doesn't just mean players can use their dailies more often, it means they can use them more *freely*. And against most encounters, using a daily that freely can turn into an IWIN button.

[tcrudisi]

Multi-class feats stay as they were (as in, 1 Healing Word/encounter)

Doug: For bosses, I plan to just throw standard PCs at them, or, in case of monsters, give the monsters character powers.

Two points: First, I wanted to correct your multi-class sentence. All multi-class heal feats give you that heal as a daily, not an encounter power. If you want to houserule that differently, that's fine... but "as they were" was 1 heal a day.

Second: Now you are talking about adding more work. Part of the allure of 4e from a DM's perspective is how easy the game is to run. By the time you are letting the monsters do the same thing, or you are creating PC's to be able to match them... what's the point? At this point, in my opinion, it would be best just to go ahead and leave things as they are.

I do like the ideas, and I hope you find a nice balance, because I'd love to give it a shot once. But when you are at the point of having to add extra abilities to monsters or throw standard PC's at them.... you've probably gone too far. That's my 2cp, anyway.

[Grey Paladin]

Err . . I kind of . . missed the first one. doh.

I am sure this idea can be balanced by utilizing standard ECL and monsters for bosses like it works with normals, but I just like writing up complex stuff. I find it fun.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Combined, this will reintroduce the Narcoleptic Party to D&D; healing surges are the new spell slot.

Think about it: by allowing an Encounter for a Healing Surge, you are basically turning everyone into Sorcerers - they have a set number of "casts" per day which they can use on (most) powers on their list. On their "last" Encounter for the day they'll Nova their Dailies and go down to 0 or 1 Surge and then go to sleep. Even with the "one Extended Rest per 24 hour" rule, there is little incentive not to act this way.

In addition, it nullifies the usefulness of any power which allows someone to pop a Healing Surge - not to mention making the party nigh-indestructible.

If I were using these rules, I'd raise ECL suggestions by 2-3; an "even level" challenge is actually a LV+2 for example.

As for PCs as BBEGs - will you allow them to play by the same rules? If so, then you will have long battles with both sides popping Surges as minor/standard actions (?) and spamming Dailies like there's no tomorrow.

Good lord, you'll have reintroduced Rocket Tag too - now it is not only reasonable, but easy to Stun-Lock someone :smalleek:

[Grey Paladin]

I never had any problem with motivating my party not to rest too often due to timed quests or the danger of getting caught with your pants down, so the first issue doesn't bothers me.

Your point on making 'Use a healing-surge' powers nearly useless is a good one, though. Suggestions?

I like my boss fights epic, but I'll likely introduce some kind of 'Stun/sleep/etc-immunity' ritual cycle that is too expensive to use for every fight but prevents an epic wizard from spamming Legion's Hold against a clever party.

[BobVosh]

Combined, this will reintroduce the Narcoleptic Party to D&D; healing surges are the new spell slot.

Think about it: by allowing an Encounter for a Healing Surge, you are basically turning everyone into Sorcerers - they have a set number of "casts" per day which they can use on (most) powers on their list. On their "last" Encounter for the day they'll Nova their Dailies and go down to 0 or 1 Surge and then go to sleep. Even with the "one Extended Rest per 24 hour" rule, there is little incentive not to act this way.

In addition, it nullifies the usefulness of any power which allows someone to pop a Healing Surge - not to mention making the party nigh-indestructible.

If I were using these rules, I'd raise ECL suggestions by 2-3; an "even level" challenge is actually a LV+2 for example.

As for PCs as BBEGs - will you allow them to play by the same rules? If so, then you will have long battles with both sides popping Surges as minor/standard actions (?) and spamming Dailies like there's no tomorrow.

Good lord, you'll have reintroduced Rocket Tag too - now it is not only reasonable, but easy to Stun-Lock someone :smalleek:

td;dr: 4th ed is dead, DEAD! :smallyuk:

Seriously though, as all these people mention, it messes with the balance considerably. Remember how big a deal it was to have a +1 to hit? Now see this in comparison.

There is no real reason to mess with 4ed's balance for using more of the same. I would see it only for introducing new elements. All I see for more X per day is a large, but fairly boring, bump to power. Add some shazam if you are going to kill the balance.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I never had any problem with motivating my party not to rest too often due to timed quests or the danger of getting caught with your pants down, so the first issue doesn't bothers me.

Your point on making 'Use a healing-surge' powers nearly useless is a good one, though. Suggestions?

I like my boss fights epic, but I'll likely introduce some kind of 'Stun/sleep/etc-immunity' ritual cycle that is too expensive to use for every fight but prevents an epic wizard from spamming Legion's Hold against a clever party.
Legion's Hold nothing! An 8th level Rogue can spam Knockout and let the party Ranger Coup De Grace every turn. Or at 1st Level he can spam Blinding Barrage to keep up to 9 enemies Blind for the entire encounter. Or Dazing Strike for perma-Daze.

And let's not forget the 1st Level Wizard that can cast Sleep every round. You're going to have to start inventing 3E style counters to status effects and "Dodge or Suck" powers - it'll be a mess.

I'm glad to hear you can keep your party moving with time-sensitive quests, but surely that's not all of their quests; sometimes they have all the time in the world to finish.

As for how to fix the Healing Surge granting powers? Well, if you allow them to restore a Healing Surge (no HP) they will be very useful powers indeed. This also solves the Narcoleptic Party problem - they no longer have to sleep at all. I suppose you could impose some limit here, like restored Surges only last until the end of the Encounter (like Temp HP) - that way they'll allow Leaders to swap out their real Surges to grant other characters Temporary Surges.

EDIT:
OK, how about something constructive then

(1) Any character can spend a Healing Surge as a Standard Action. Clerics & Warlords can use their Inspiring/Healing Word to make a character spend a Healing Surge and receive bonus HP as well.
Keeps the healing flowing while making it costly. Also, being able to recover HP as a minor (rather than a Standard) action, with bonus HP, keeps Leaders relevant.

(2) Exhausted Powers (aside from Inspiring/Healing Word and Lay on Hands) can be recovered as a Standard action by spending Healing Surges. Encounter Powers require 1 Surge, Daily Powers require 2 Surges.
Defeats most of the combos I listed above, and makes recharging costly. This also discourages the spamming of Daily Powers over Encounter Powers.

(3) Encounter Powers recharge on their own 5 minutes after they were last discharged.
Really, I'd just keep the Short Rests in there. Keeping track of exact time on powers spent on various rounds is just going to be annoying.

(4) Any Power that would normally allow a character to expend a Healing Surge (aside from Inspiring/Healing Word and Lay on Hands) instead grants them a Temporary Surge. Temporary Surges do not stack, and are used first when a Surge must be expended. You must have at least 1 normal Surge remaining to gain a Temporary Surge.
Keeps those Surge Popping Powers useful without allowing the Eternal Warrior problem. Note issues with Defender powers that allow that character to spend a Healing Surge - this rule supercharges them, but by forcing them to expend a Power Selection to get those powers, it probably balances out.
How's that look?

[Grey Paladin]

-

EDIT: I really like your implementation. Great work.

Does letting one recover exhausted powers as a minor action for twice the cost in Healing Surges seems unfit to you?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Does letting one recover exhausted powers as a minor action for twice the cost in Healing Surges seems unfit to you?
The thing is most characters can afford to spend a Minor Action on power recharging every round - the increased cost just reduces the length of their workday. Plus, if you make it a Minor Action, characters can recharge and use the power on the same turn with little to no cost. If it is a Standard Action, they either have to wait a turn or spend an AP to do it - very expensive.

I prefer to make Power Recharging something expensive to do now (Action Economy) as opposed to expensive later (Total Surges). It forces the PCs to make harder decisions during combat, particularly when the action gets tight.

[Kurald Galain]

In order to somewhat increase the resource management element/simulationism, my group has decided to include the following rules in our game:

This strikes me as a bad idea. This throws the very idea of game balance out of the window (and if you don't care about game balance, you probably wouldn't be playing 4E).

It grossly overpowers classes with more healing surges (e.g. all primal classes, defender classes, and those with an incentive to invest in constitution). Also, it makes at-will powers pretty much useless. And also, the (few) mechanics that let you gain additional healing surges become extremely important.

Consider how many combats you're supposed to get per day (3 or 4, if LFR is any judge) and how many rounds those combats last (most combats last about 3 rounds before they are completely decided and become cleanup duty; this amount obviously goes down if you have more dailies to spend). So that means that you can use your daily every round that matters, in every combat that matters. Yeah...

Seriously, if you want to play something epically overpowered, take out Exalted, or TORG, or 3E Epic Casters.

[Grey Paladin]

Oracle: Point.

Kurald: My first query, was, in fact, about how to correct the newly created lack of balance between classes with different healing surge values.

I am aware of the standard number of encounters per a day - and will of course not stick to that number should I use this variant.

4E is more or less as low-powered as it gets, as far as high fantasy is concerned.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Kurald: My first query, was, in fact, about how to correct the newly created lack of balance between classes with different healing surge values.

I am aware of the standard number of encounters per a day - and will of course not stick to that number should I use this variant.

4E is more or less as low-powered as it gets, as far as high fantasy is concerned.


:tongue:
Oh, hearing that is always funny!

But as to the Surge differences - nothing you can do about it. Your options fall as follows:
(1) Everyone gets the same number of Surges
Screws over classes designed to be very sturdy - Paladins in particular.

(2) Every Class has a different conversion rate to Power Recharges
Have fun with that. Not only is it needlessly complicated, there aren't enough Surges to calibrate the exchange rates reasonably.

(3) Limit Surge Expenditure per Encounter
Only let a given character spend 2 Real Surges per Encounter - so two Encounter Recharges, or one Daily Recharge - and you'll put a cap on the general imbalance. Temp Surges do not count towards this Cap.

It's not a complete fix, but it limits the harm, somewhat.
In all honestly, it looks like your system aims to do two things:
(1) Make healing ridiculously easy
(2) Let PCs use their Encounter and Daily powers a lot

Now, I personally think this is a silly thing to do, but if you really want to have some kind of balance left after these alterations, you're going to have to decouple Recharges from Surges. It's that simple. Options:
(1) Use MM Recharge System
As a Standard action, let the PCs attempt to Recharge a single expended power. Roll a d6 - Encounter Powers recharge on a 4, 5 or 6; Daily Powers recharge on a 5 or 6.

If that is too harsh, then allow the PCs to convert a Failed Roll into an expended Minor Action instead (i.e. rather than having spent a Standard Action, they only lose a Minor).

(2) Create a Mana System
Give everyone a new score - mana - that they can use to recharge powers. 1 MP for an Encounter, 2 MP for a Daily, using my original guidelines. Basically change all "Surges" to "MP" - including "Temp MP" for powers that would normally pop a Surge.

You can give everyone the same number, tie it to some stat (suggestion: their class's Secondary Stat), or award MP like you would Action Points - maybe 2 per Milestone. Or grant MP as special rewards for good RP, innovative solutions, etc. Your choice.
What sounds good to you?

[Nightson]

Daily powers get worse as you go up in tiers under these rules.

[Grey Paladin]

Nightson: The cost is per tier of the Power, not of the character.

Oracle: For the Surge difference, I figured I'll just give some more unique class features to classes with less of them. I dislike the generic solution.

This houserule, as is, is more or less MP. I used Healing Surges because they are inherent to the system.

The main aim of these rules is to give the PCs more fire-power (at the cost of long-term durability), create more strategical decisions instead of focusing soley on tactics, and most importantly be able to throw far more powerful stuff at them and thus increase the danger of battle as well as its depth (as HP stays the same, a few small mistakes will likely lead to death on either side).

[Oracle_Hunter]

The main aim of these rules is to give the PCs more fire-power (at the cost of long-term durability), create more strategical decisions instead of focusing soley on tactics, and most importantly be able to throw far more powerful stuff at them and thus increase the danger of battle as well as its depth (as HP stays the same, a few small mistakes will likely lead to death on either side).
Then your system is not going to do what you want it to do.
In the beginning, your players will be extremely cautious - particularly if you're throwing Encounters at them that require more than 4 Surges to survive. But, in time, your players (and you, yourself) will adjust to the new equilibrium.

If the monsters have no status protection, they will spam locking powers for a quick win.

If the monsters have status protection, they will fight it normally.

When the PCs have 4 or fewer Surges remaining, they will call it a day.
At best, you will have removed the risk of death by HP loss while giving your players the ability to re-use powerful combos in the same encounter. At worst, you will break the game in half - turning everything into a game of Rocket Tag; or if your Monsters don't have multiple Surges, a Bug Hunt.

I think you are underestimating the strategic element that Surges already represent.
Players know that they have 2 scores that determine whether they live or die - their HP and their Surge Count. HP is highly variable, moving up and down with sometimes shocking speed in the course of a few rounds. Surges are vital, irreplaceable, resources - you can spend one for tremendous effect, but once gone, it's not coming back.

In battle, the PCs are worried about keeping their HP above zero (and sometimes, above bloodied). To this end they have the limited healing resources available to them by their party. 2 pops per Leader and maybe the occasional personal power to trigger one; in case of emergency, you could spend a valuable Standard Action to pop a Second Wind. When things got really bad, you could think about spending a Healing Potion to trigger a Surge - perhaps getting less out of it than you would during a Short Rest.

Meanwhile, the Leaders need to keep an eye on everyone's HP and their Healing stores. You only get 2 pops an Encounter - who will need them the most, and when will they need them? Will you be in range to heal them when they need it, or will you be tied up by a Monster, perhaps under a status effect? A wise Leader gives those pops out in a miserly fashion - but be too tightfisted and you may lose precious actions by propping up a fallen ally.

Often, players find themselves with "too many" Surges - perhaps they haven't been hurt enough to require spending them all, or they can't be used when they were most needed. But sometimes, they can run completely dry in a dangerous place - due to Disease or other effects - and know the pure panic of not having any healing. This balance requires strategic planning, taking into account the likely frequency of encounters, the numbers of encounters and the severity of each encounter.

In your system, these calculations are turned on their head. The PCs know that, by being conservative with heals, they can convert "spare" surges into incredible power. They no longer represent "health" or "survivability" - they are just another source of power, to be refreshed with a night of sleep. When they need more HP, they get it. When they need another casting of Sleep, they get it. No long term planning needed.
OK, that may have been a bit incoherent. In short, by removing restrictions on in-Encounter healing and the Power Economy, you are removing many strategic considerations that already exist in the 4E ruleset. Instead, you have replaced them with purely tactical considerations that require no real forethought.

Hopefully I am wrong. Good luck.

[Grey Paladin]

You raise an interesting point, but I'd just like to mention that the assumption that the PCs can freely decide when to call it a day is not one I hold. If there is no IC time-factor there are plenty of ways to bypass most challenges without confronting them directly.

EDIT: To be honest, I understand that I am trying to make 4E do something it was not meant to (which is what your argument boils down to), which is admittedly a pretty idiotic thing to do most of the time, but I lack the time to properly write a new system fitting my needs and use the brand name to fish for players (due to most of my group moving away).

[Oracle_Hunter]

You raise an interesting point, but I'd just like to mention that the assumption that the PCs can freely decide when to call it a day is not one I hold. If there is no IC time-factor there are plenty of ways to bypass most challenges without confronting them directly.
Ah, but how many times will the PCs accept being rushed along the plot train before they get annoyed?
Y'see, this is one of the problems with trying to fix mechanical problems with DMing. Of course you can't always take a week to get through a dungeon, but sometimes, shouldn't the PCs have the option to take their time? Does every Old Man who wants his MacGuffin need it by tomorrow? Are the bandits always just about to break camp and vanish into the mists? Eventually, the players will say "hey, why can't we take an extra day to do this?" and they won't like your answer.

"If this MacGuffin is so darned time sensitive, why didn't he get it earlier?"

"Why did the ransomers demand payment in exactly a week when they know it takes 6 days to get to their castle? What if our wagon broke a wheel?"

"Let me guess, we have to stop the evil sorcerer before tomorrow night. Jeez, can't any of these prophets give us a little lead time?"

Worse, what do you do when something legitimately comes up? Sometimes PCs have a string of bad luck and have to put things off a day. Or they're a little slow putting the clues together. Are you willing to explode your plots because of a little bad luck? Or do you use Shrodinger's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleocg6iflv079q) to alter secret timelines so that the PCs aren't late? Sooner or later, the players will pick up on this and make use of the Event Flags (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EventFlag) to pace their own adventure. Sure, you can pull a Rocks Falls Everyone Dies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) and blow up the occasional plot to show the players that you're serious about you timelines, but it will be an uneasy truce.
The real problem here is that if, for some reason, the players encounter something which isn't time-sensitive, your mechanical changes will make it a cakewalk - unless you give the Encounters a lot of Plot Armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) to prevent status-chaining (or super-comboing) things to death.

You end up having to tailor every encounter to limit the very powers you have given your PCs to use. It frustrates the players for not being able to really open up with your character and places a real constraint on the sort of stories you can tell.

[Grey Paladin]

My campaigns are usually sandbox+plot. The players can take all of the time in the world with nearly every specific encounter, and most plot-lines - but the overarching plot will advance with or without them, whether they are present or not. The world moves at its own pace, not that of the PCs.

In my games, time is an unreplenishable resource, although with enough of it there is little you can't do. So while you can take four months taking down that dragon, the BBEG was free to run around doing whatever - and that whatever is likely to come back and bite you in the ass later on.

Rather than a timed side-quest, think Fallout 1.

[Tiki Snakes]

Don't forget you can't take an 'extended rest' whenever you feel like. You need to leave, like, 8 hours or something between extended rests. So if your party is dungeon crawling, wakes up and novas a room full of goblins, they're going to end up camping in that same room for another 16 hours or something.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Don't forget you can't take an 'extended rest' whenever you feel like. You need to leave, like, 8 hours or something between extended rests. So if your party is dungeon crawling, wakes up and novas a room full of goblins, they're going to end up camping in that same room for another 16 hours or something.
It's not the "standard encounters" I'm talking about - it's the iconic bad guys. Solo monsters are right out (unless you give them status immunity - which makes them extremely powerful) and Elite Monsters are risky to use at best. Heck, even fights against individual "enemy characters" are a cakewalk if you win initiative. It is just too easy to chain-status or super-combo a bad guy.

Basically, it's Stun-Locking turned up to 11.

Plus, the game will completely fall apart in Paragon if someone goes Divine Oracle. Crits on Demand - yes, please! Or the Paladin that goes with the "dazed until un-marked" Encounter power. And this isn't even looking beyond Core!

Grey Paladin is going to have to spend days working the kinks out of these houserules. IMHO it's just not worth it - but it is his time and he can do what he wants with it.

[Grey Paladin]

Well, my other option is to write up a system from the bottom up so . . .

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, my other option is to write up a system from the bottom up so . . .
Wait - what exactly are you trying to accomplish with the "system" for this game? As has been pointed out, your "house rules" basically gut the principles the 4E system was built upon; why are you using it at all?

[Grey Paladin]

Brand name, speed of play, and ease of use.

Additionally, as I have said previously, usually I'd just write up something that specifically meets my current needs, but lack the time and so throw up a relatively quick hack.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well... good luck, then.

[Nightson]

Nightson: The cost is per tier of the Power, not of the character.


My point is that healing surges don't scale fast, or at all.

Take a look at a simple basic halfing rogue.

Base surges is 6, let's say he swings a +3 con bonus for a total of 9. One daily power at this tier is 1/9th of his surges, 11%.

Then we push him all the way up to 30, he bumps con at every opportunity (because con is every class' secondary stat now) he ends up with 13 surges, so one daily is 3/13ths of his surges 23%

I mean this will break the game, take it over your knee and snap it's back break. But that doesn't mean it won't be fun, feel free to give it a try.

[Oracle_Hunter]

My point is that healing surges don't scale fast, or at all.

Take a look at a simple basic halfing rogue.

Base surges is 6, let's say he swings a +3 con bonus for a total of 9. One daily power at this tier is 1/9th of his surges, 11%.

Then we push him all the way up to 30, he bumps con at every opportunity (because con is every class' secondary stat now) he ends up with 13 surges, so one daily is 3/13ths of his surges 23%

I mean this will break the game, take it over your knee and snap it's back break. But that doesn't mean it won't be fun, feel free to give it a try.
That's not really a big problem. All it means is he'll hold onto an Encounter that chains well, and use Dailies as normal.

I do agree that you shouldn't bother scaling Daily Recharge costs. It underprices them in Heroic and overprices them in Epic. Fix them at 2 Surges per Daily and 1 per Encounter and you'll be set.