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HMS Invincible
2009-04-18, 03:28 AM
What is a better fit for wizard, Human, eladrin? Deva? I went with human because humans go with anything, but I've noticed that eladrin get an easier time with the awesome paragon teir of Wizard of the spiral tower.
Does eladrin soldier feat add a bonus to the implement powers when casting with a longsword?

What implement is best for wizards? The close combat staff of defense, or the orb? I don't know what to think about the wand.

What is your "best" build for a wizard? Standard array for simplicity sake.

Saph
2009-04-18, 03:51 AM
Human is my personal favourite, because Wizards are one of the few classes that really benefit from a third at-will. Deva are good too, as the Wisdom bonus is very useful. Eladrin are also possible, but just slightly weaker in my book, along with Tieflings.

At low levels the staff is the best implement, assuming you've got the Con to properly use it. Orb gets more and more powerful as your wisdom increases, but it's only really useful with save-ends powers, and at low levels you have almost none of those. I'd take Orb as your second implement once you hit Paragon.

Going for the Wand implement means you have to pump Dex, which is kind of annoying as it hurts your defences (Dex and Int affect the same things, so increasing your Dex does nothing for a Wizard except to give you more initiative). Also, since you have to use the Wand bonus before you see whether you've hit, most of the time it won't make a difference anyway. By contrast, the Staff gives you a permanent AC boost and a defence ability that you can choose to use after you see the roll - a big difference.

Ability scores are up to you, but you definitely want at least an 18 in Intelligence. A 20 can work too, as long as you're willing to take a hit to your Fort and Will and sacrifice some feat options. Choices would be:

16/14/14/13/10/8 - balanced, good all-round.
16/16/13/11/10/8 - good if you want to maximise your benefit from Implement Mastery.
18/13/13/10/10/8 - the specialist build, but remember that it'll be much harder to qualify for feats.

- Saph

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-18, 04:49 AM
Obligatory CharOp Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16113350&postcount=6)

I'd suggest scanning Treatmonk's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1041166) or Squirrelloid's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1039126) guides - they seem to be the broadest.

Saph's advice is pretty much spot on too.

A fun build is the Dwarven Wizard, who works well as either a Staff or Orb Wizard (and consequently, pretty good as both - though that's suboptimal). Particularly if you DM uses PHB2 and allows Implement Expertise, a Dwarven Staff Wizard is a lot of fun - though I'd play one even without Expertise.

EDIT:
Oh! A fun build I came up with is the Eladrin Spell Thief - an Eladrin Wand Wizard who multiclasses into Rogue.

If you take Stealth as your Eladrin Education skill, you can be a fully functional thief while also running around with Cantrips, Rituals and nifty Utilities. Though you can't Sneak Attack with a spell, you can still use your dagger if you want to use some neat Rogue status-effect powers (like Knockout!), and to cause the occasional touch of Sneak Attack damage.

One of the nicer things about this Build is that your Dex doesn't feel as useless as it normally does as an Eladrin Wizard - you need it for sneaking and thieving too!

NecroRebel
2009-04-18, 01:27 PM
As Saph implied, conventional wisdom is that Staff wizards are more powerful than the other kinds until sometime in the late Heroic to mid-Paragon tier, depending on power choices. At that point, the Orb mastery feature begins to be more and more powerful, to the point of game breaking at higher Epic tier. Considering that it is entirely possible for an Orbizard to stack -8 or more on an enemy's saving throws and the fact that other classes can also stack more penalties to saves, it is possible for a Wizard to stun or otherwise completely disable a target perpetually.

I'd say that the best race for Wizards depends on tier. At low Heroic, Tieflings win out; fire resistance isn't as ubiquitous as it is later, so Hellfire Blood and fire spells grant better to-hit and thus better power in general. Later heroic brings Githyanki in, assuming MM races are allowed. Int/Con is perfect for Staffizards and they're attractive overall. As levels increase Devas come into vogue due to their Int/Wis, which enhances the aforementioned game breaking power of epic Orbizards.

Generally, the Wand implement mastery isn't that great. Once per encounter to-hit bonuses based off a stat that doesn't benefit you much isn't very powerful, particularly since Wands do not have properties or powers as useful as Staffs or Orbs.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-18, 02:31 PM
Gnoll wizard with staff. I think he multiclassed into fighter or something, because he spent quite a bit of time using his staff melee.
He wasn't as powerful a caster as the usual eladrin/human wizard, but he was fun to have in the party.

ocato
2009-04-18, 03:17 PM
Right now, I'm playing a Human Staff Wizard. The plan is to grab the orb as a second implement sometime in Paragon. I won't have -15 to saves, but I'll have a decent bag of tricks (especially with the double implement feat, hopefully).

TheOOB
2009-04-18, 10:18 PM
All three implements are good. Staff is best if you expect to be attacked a lot, or you don't have very good abilities outside of int(such as if you go for an 18 pre racial), since it always provides +1 AC. Orb is perhaps the most powerful implement, but it it's pretty weak for most of heroic tier, and even after that it's pretty limited in it's usefulness.

Wand is great if you are playing eladrin(who can get a 16 dex without even trying), but it's hard to get really good because of it's dex requirement. That said, even with a +2-+4, it's allready very powerful.

Other then that, remember that you are a controller not a striker. Try to take powers the hinder and disable enemies, as they will be your most effective. Wizards, in particular, are the master of zones and walls. No other class is able to put down patches of nastyness quite like a wizard.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-19, 02:23 AM
Wow, I'm actually disagreeing with Saph for once :smallbiggrin:

Eladrin are one of the best races for wizards because of their teleport ability. Devas are too, with the wisdom boost and roll increasing. Tieflings aren't too good, since all they do is increase damage a bit and wizards are so not about the damage. Oh yeah, and doppelgangers are fun, and better socially at the cost of a bit of combat power.

Humans are overrated, because the third at-will appears at the bottom of your list of priorities (this is because all encounter and daily powers are obviously "higher", as are the other two at-wills or you would have picked them first). This extra power becomes increasingly irrelevant as you level up. That said, an extra feat is pretty good.


Also, since you have to use the Wand bonus before you see whether you've hit, most of the time it won't make a difference anyway.
The WOTC FAQ says the exact opposite (which also makes the ability much more useful). Eladrin can easily have a 14 dex, and a +2 to hit once per encounter? Pretty good!

The staff is a good implement if the most boring one. If the party defenders are doing their job, you won't get attack so much, so at low levels I would recommend wand, or possibly orb (assuming you have at least one save-ends spell, like fire shroud). Tome should probably be considered A Trap, at low level at least.

Take at least an 18 in intelligence, possibly more. A 19 also works, because you get to boost it at level four. There's really no excuse here, wizards are about the most SAD class that 4E gets. Dump strength and charisma. If the DM lets you, pick a background that uses intelligence or wisdom to HP, rather than constitution.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-19, 02:30 AM
Humans are overrated, because the third at-will appears at the bottom of your list of priorities (this is because all encounter and daily powers are obviously "higher", as are the other two at-wills or you would have picked them first). This extra power becomes increasingly irrelevant as you level up. That said, an extra feat is pretty good.
Don't forget the extra trained skill and +1 NADs too.

The extra trained skill is nice for a Wizard, because they have access to all of the knowledge skills, making human wizards walking encyclopedias. It's nice, but not supremely awesome.

The +1 NADs are a lot more important. As a SAD character, you can end up uneven NAD distribution - leaving you vulnerable to Fort attacks, and possibly Will if you dump both WIS and CHA for some reason. Anyhoo, it's always nice to have strong NADs.

And also, don't forget Human Feats. Since many of your attacks are multi-targeted, Action Surge can be huge for you.

EDIT:
Consequently, that's why I still don't think Wand Wizards are that great. Many (if not most) of your attacks affect multiple targets, and you can only use Wand of Accuracy on a single attack roll - and only if it's within the 2-3 points you put into DEX. So it's really only useful if you miss the BBEG by a little - otherwise it's nice, but not crucial.

Staff, on the other hand, is always important. Any damage/effect a successful hit causes wears away at your limited resources (Surges) and can potentially leave you in a bad way (Status Effects). Plus, CON doesn't overlap with your primary ability score, so you gain the extra advantage of buffing your HP, Surges and Fort NAD by using your discretionary boost on it.

Orb is only going to be as useful as your DM allows you to cheese. Unless your DM allows broken items into the game, your ability to stun-lock people is going to be limited. That said, being able to impose saving throw penalties can be very helpful sometimes. Mainly, I prefer it over Wand because it helps your NADs and because WIS covers the non-INT knowledge skills (and Heal) - Orb Wizards should be Ritual Masters.

HMS Invincible
2009-04-19, 01:43 PM
When you take WotST, can you take weapon expertise to get a bonus to your attack rolls with spells?

What order do you get feats? I rank them in this order of importance:
Heroic teir:
Implement expertise.
Action surge (if possible)
Distant advantage

Improved initiative
Toughness

Has anyone figured out a way to use coordinated assault without the war wizardry feat? It works great with the feat, but I don't see how it can work well by itself.

Tengu_temp
2009-04-19, 02:02 PM
Take at least an 18 in intelligence, possibly more. A 19 also works, because you get to boost it at level four. There's really no excuse here, wizards are about the most SAD class that 4E gets. Dump strength and charisma. If the DM lets you, pick a background that uses intelligence or wisdom to HP, rather than constitution.

Considering Spell Focus, I wouldn't say dumping charisma is such a good idea.

Colmarr
2009-04-19, 10:57 PM
Humans are overrated, because the third at-will appears at the bottom of your list of priorities

AFAIK, Wizard is one of the few classes that has the capability to target all three NADs "out of the box", and furthermore a human wizard is the only PC that can do so using only at-wills.

That strikes me as a massive tactical benefit.

Break
2009-04-20, 09:48 PM
AFAIK, Wizard is one of the few classes that has the capability to target all three NADs "out of the box", and furthermore a human wizard is the only PC that can do so using only at-wills.

That strikes me as a massive tactical benefit.

Sorcerors also have at-wills that target all three NADs.

Saph
2009-04-20, 10:43 PM
Humans are overrated, because the third at-will appears at the bottom of your list of priorities (this is because all encounter and daily powers are obviously "higher", as are the other two at-wills or you would have picked them first). This extra power becomes increasingly irrelevant as you level up. That said, an extra feat is pretty good.

The thing about being human is it lets you take Scorching Burst (your bread-and-butter ranged burst) Thunderwave (a very useful push and get-out-of-trouble power) and one of the single-target Will-targeting powers like Illusionary Ambush. This also gives you at-wills that target all three defences, which boosts your accuracy plenty.

Admittedly at-wills get less important as you level up, but they're always a good fallback. And an extra feat is nice too, because with Arcane Power wizards have a LOT of nice feats.


The WOTC FAQ says the exact opposite (which also makes the ability much more useful).

Linky? Not disagreeing, but I'd like to see this one confirmed.

It would make the ability much much better, but I'm still not sure I'd take it, as it only lets you boost one attack roll and the whole point of being a Wizard is to hit lots of targets at once IMO.

- Saph

NPCMook
2009-04-20, 11:09 PM
When you take WotST, can you take weapon expertise to get a bonus to your attack rolls with spells?

What order do you get feats? I rank them in this order of importance:
Heroic teir:
Implement expertise.
Action surge (if possible)
Distant advantage

Improved initiative
Toughness

Has anyone figured out a way to use coordinated assault without the war wizardry feat? It works great with the feat, but I don't see how it can work well by itself. No, the Longsword acts as one of your chosen Implements, even then you only gain the bonus for implement expertise because the power has the implement keyword.

Coordinated Assault is good, but on its own its a pretty risky feat, except for Clerics, for a wizard it's not so much unless the blast only effects enemies

Kurald Galain
2009-04-21, 03:36 AM
The thing about being human is it lets you take Scorching Burst (your bread-and-butter ranged burst) Thunderwave (a very useful push and get-out-of-trouble power) and one of the single-target Will-targeting powers like Illusionary Ambush.
Yeah, I get that. However, being able to target all three defenses is only useful if you know which one is lowest, and if you don't need about the secondary effects of the powers, and if you don't have any daily or encounter powers that would help more.

For instance, whenever I need things pushed I will use Thunderwave. At that point I really don't care which defense it targets, I need to push things to this is my spell (although yes, I am aware that attempting to push brutes is not generally such a great idea).

As I level up I find myself not even using Scorching Burst all that much (and if I do, it never does all that much). I wouldn't use a single-target at will because if there's only a single target left from a horde of monsters, the situation is well under control anyway; and when facing a solo, I'd probably pop a daily or get creative.

Humans are good because of the extra feat (and skill) and because humans have the best racial feats. The third at-will is a nice extra but doesn't matter all that much. The funny thing is that this is the exact opposite of how the race seems at first. But, by being human you miss out on the coolness of Elven Reroll, or Fey Step, or Doppelganging. YMMV, but personally I'd pick any of those over the third at-will any day.


Linky? Not disagreeing, but I'd like to see this one confirmed.
Here, question 26 (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396). Cue some forumite snarking about the accuracy of custserv, in 5... 4...


it only lets you boost one attack roll and the whole point of being a Wizard is to hit lots of targets at once IMO.
I agree that the multi-target spells are the best ones (I've been using a Staff of the Warmage for like ever, and that's why Expand Spell is so completely awesome). However, it strikes me that saying once per combat that yes, that additional creature is also hit by my color spray would be nifty. I haven't tested that theory yet, though.

cupkeyk
2009-04-21, 05:12 AM
Eladrin make excellent Orbizards without the orb. An eladrin wizard/wosp with a phrenic crown and a cunning longsword and the spell focus feat will have sleep/illusory wall/prismatic spray/legoin's hold with -5 at level 11, peaking at -9 at level 28. Of course this option is viable for devas and humans too, but they'd have to burn a feat(weapon proficiency, longsword). str 8, dex 14(for arcane reach), con 12, wis 10(yes, 10) int 20, cha 12(for spell focus). take staff mastery, pumping con at every opportunity. the eladrin also qualify for High elf mage from that Dragon magazine(268? I think); they can create magic items at half the price three levels earlier than lorekeeper with high arcana.

The key racial feature that makes tieflings good at being wiz's is bloodhunt, which gives them an additional +5% to hot for 50% of the combat. they can also qualify for spell focus easier than most other races too. at low levels they can get scion of the gods from pgfr to pump that sad fort save early, to be retrained later. Otherwise, skip this race

i hate deva because they were everything elf wiz's wanted to be only better, before ph2 came out. deva's add an average of 3.5 to a roll when an elf needs to take a feat to add a 2 to their reroll. HATE!

no, implement mastery and weapon mastery will not stack as per the ph2 errata pdf.

BlueWizard
2009-04-21, 05:58 AM
Runs out screaming from this thread.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-21, 05:59 AM
Considering Spell Focus, I wouldn't say dumping charisma is such a good idea.
Considering the plethora of save-penalizing items (and paragon paths, and a familiar, too), you really don't need spell focus any more.


str 8, dex 14(for arcane reach), con 12, wis 10(yes, 10) int 20, cha 12(for spell focus).
Wisdom is still worth it for Thunderwave, if nothing else. Also, I don't think Arcane Reach is nearly as good as people think it is (and there's also a familiar that can do the same thing ten levels earlier). Nevertheless I recommend a decent dexterity for Quick Draw; see my sig for why this is awesome.

I'd say dex 13, con 10 (and be from Thay or Impiltur), wis 15, int 19. YMMV, but in general in 4E it pays to focus on two attributes and mostly neglect the rest.

Saph
2009-04-21, 08:00 AM
Yeah, I get that. However, being able to target all three defenses is only useful if you know which one is lowest, and if you don't need about the secondary effects of the powers, and if you don't have any daily or encounter powers that would help more.

The second two, definitely. There's a way for Wizards to pick out a target's weakest defence, though. It's an item from the Adventurer's Vault called the Foe Stone. Unfortunately it's level 13, but it's well worth the money - it lets you find out the target's lowest defence and all its vulnerabilities. Best of all, it does that as a minor action and it's an at-will power.

- Saph

Asbestos
2009-04-21, 05:51 PM
Having gone through my copy of Arcane Power, I'm going to vote Gnome Illusionist as the best wizard build.

The "Orb of Deception" implement mastery allows you to, 1/encounter, repeat an attack roll with a bonus equal to your CHA modifier against an enemy up to 3 squares away from one you just missed with an illusion power. As well, a number of illusion spells benefit from a high CHA.

Now, this alone might put a tiefling illusionist on even ground with a gnome illusionist, but the gnome wizard has access to a scaling heroic tier feat that gives them a bonus to attack and damage rolls with illusion powers. Now, add in that not much is resistant to psychic damage and many illusion powers target Will (most often the easiest to hit defense) and you have yourself quite the overly accurate Wizard build.

Asbestos
2009-04-21, 05:54 PM
Wisdom is still worth it for Thunderwave, if nothing else. Also, I don't think Arcane Reach is nearly as good as people think it is (and there's also a familiar that can do the same thing ten levels earlier). Nevertheless I recommend a decent dexterity for Quick Draw; see my sig for why this is awesome.

Yeah, but that familiar only does it 1/encounter IIRC, and it has to be flying around as a player controlled minion pretty much so... chances are it won't always get to pull it off before it dies. I think it exists to be attractive to Dragon Sorcs (who might have a rough time qualifying for arcane reach)

Arbitrarity
2009-04-21, 06:46 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure WOST isn't necessary with Eladrin Sword.
Oh, there is going to be blood over this one. Blood Magus :smallbiggrin: (Actually, it really just frees up PP choices, but I like Destructive Salutation, because it's the first Stun(save ends)
Phrenic Crown, Archmage, Blood Magus, Spell Focus, Cunning Longsword, Arcane Mastery, Orb.

Why yes, I think -9 to your saves is reasonable.
Oh, you're a solo? -16 all right with you?
Every encounter?
Well that's nice. Ok, have a nice day then.

HMS Invincible
2009-04-25, 12:34 AM
Can someone explain the rules for dual wielding implements? What are the best uses for it?

cupkeyk
2009-04-25, 12:48 AM
Regarding dual weilding implements, there isn't any rule really except the Custserv reply saying that you can weild up to two implements/weapons. What people do is that they have one implement with a high enhancement bonus and another one with a desired effect/power/property. This tends to be cheaper than upgrading one implement with the desired effect/power/property. Take for example an orb wiz can have a magic orb +2(level 6) and an orb of fickle fate +1(level 4). He gives a baddie a -2 penalty to saves with his primary hand orb and casts his power via his off hand orb. This is cheaper than having a Orb of fickle fate +2 (level 9); but has the same effect. Of course he looks silly doing this, opponents think he is about to start juggling. He can opt out of upgrading his orb of fickle fate until much later (level 14, when the save penalty improves) and can spend the upgrade.

Or, some people also use an offhand/low level implement weapon, just for the effect and never upgrade it. An infernal-lock will want a bloodclaw gauntlet +1 so that he can hurt himself as a free action. Its useful to have a mage's parrying dagger +1 even if you don't MC into a martial class to get the bonus to AC and Reflex.

HMS Invincible
2009-04-25, 08:01 PM
Str 7 Mod-2
Con 15 Mod+2
Dex 13 Mod+1
Int 19 Mod+4
Wis 15 Mod+2
Cha 15

This is my stats for a lvl 5 human wizard. What feats should I get if I'm a staff wizard?

Asbestos
2009-04-25, 08:46 PM
Regarding dual weilding implements, there isn't any rule really except the Custserv reply saying that you can weild up to two implements/weapons. What people do is that they have one implement with a high enhancement bonus and another one with a desired effect/power/property. This tends to be cheaper than upgrading one implement with the desired effect/power/property. Take for example an orb wiz can have a magic orb +2(level 6) and an orb of fickle fate +1(level 4). He gives a baddie a -2 penalty to saves with his primary hand orb and casts his power via his off hand orb. This is cheaper than having a Orb of fickle fate +2 (level 9); but has the same effect. Of course he looks silly doing this, opponents think he is about to start juggling. He can opt out of upgrading his orb of fickle fate until much later (level 14, when the save penalty improves) and can spend the upgrade.

Or, some people also use an offhand/low level implement weapon, just for the effect and never upgrade it. An infernal-lock will want a bloodclaw gauntlet +1 so that he can hurt himself as a free action. Its useful to have a mage's parrying dagger +1 even if you don't MC into a martial class to get the bonus to AC and Reflex.

There's a feat in Arcane Power that allows you, when wielding an implement in each hand, to add the enhancement bonus of the off-hand/non-primary implement to the damage rolls of your spells.