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View Full Version : Swordsage Feat Progression [3.5]



Woodsman
2009-04-19, 02:23 PM
I'm planning on making a swordsage character for a campaign a friend of mine is running. He's a half-elf focusing namely on the Tiger Claw and Desert Wind disciplines. About level five at the start of the campaign.

What sort of feat progression should he take?

Eldariel
2009-04-19, 02:32 PM
Always, always tell your combat style when talking about a martial character. Two-Weapon Fighting? Two-Handed Fighting? Sword & Board? Hell, Archery? It's at least as important as your focus when building an arcanist.

Other important questions: Allowed books & stats? Those mean everything as well.

monty
2009-04-19, 02:34 PM
Definitely take Adaptive Style. Recovering all of your maneuvers (as well as switching them if desired) in a single round is far better than recovering them one at a time. Beyond that, I can't say much, because every swordsage I've played has been more focused on Shadow Hand.

Woodsman
2009-04-19, 02:41 PM
Definitely a Two-Weapon Fighting style.

Allowed books are Core, Complete series, Races series, Tomes (M+B), MoI, HoB, Arms/Equipment Guide, Savage Species, Planar Handbook, Libris Mortis, LoM, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, BoED, BoVD, Eberron Campaign setting, Magic of Eberron, and unearthed Arcana. It's a lot of books.

Stats as of now are

Dex 18, Wis 16, Con 14, Str 14, Int 13, Cha 12. Got lucky on my rolls.

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-19, 02:46 PM
Wait, can you even *have* a swordsage archer?

Woodsman
2009-04-19, 02:48 PM
Theoretically, you could (they are proficient with all martial weapons), but I don't think most Maneuvers would work.

Eldariel
2009-04-19, 03:00 PM
Wait, can you even *have* a swordsage archer?

It's possible. Not optimal (Warblade is better) and you'd spend much of your time using melee maneuvers too, but Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still ensure that you've got tricks normal archers can't dream of. The biggest drawback compared to Warblade is that you lose White Raven access, which gives Warblade a way to use his maneuvers without having to do attacks, while Swordsage is stuck with a bunch of stuff that really isn't all that useful (unless you just get a bunch of Booms from Desert Wind, and I needn't explain why that might be a poor idea).

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 03:20 PM
What sort of feat progression should he take?
Adaptive Style and Two-Weapon fighting are the easy answers.
But your attack rolls might be iffy. Do as much as you can to crank those things up. Your party caster might do it all, but you might need something like Feycraft weapons to hit. The A&E guide will probably be able to help you out.


Wait, can you even *have* a swordsage archer?

Sure.
Shadow Hand has some nice stances, maneuvers and teleports.
Setting Sun and Diamond Mind set up pretty solid defenses.
Desert Wind boosts usually apply to Ranged Weapon attacks.
Tiger Claw is solid for dual-wielding throwers/crossbowmen.

Woodsman
2009-04-19, 03:29 PM
I think Weapon Finesse and TWF would be better feat choices.

Of course, I could always switch to human and get Adaptive Style anyway.

Eldariel
2009-04-19, 03:49 PM
TWF, yeah, you'll obviously need Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse. Adaptive Style on first opportunity. If you want Tiger Claw focus, I'd consider dipping Warblade for Ironheart stance to get Ironheart Aura > Stormguard Warrior; at any rate, you'll obviously enter Bloodclaw Master as soon as you qualify.

Dhavaer
2009-04-19, 04:21 PM
Look into Shadow Blade if you have any free slots.

Lycar
2009-04-19, 05:24 PM
Adaptive Style on first opportunity.

There is just a tiny little problem: You can only ever take this feat on the very 1st level of Swordsage/Warblade.

So unless you take it on lv. 1, you have to multiclass into Warblade.

Might be a good idea to pick up some extra tricks along the line though.


Lycar

monty
2009-04-19, 05:27 PM
There is just a tiny little problem: You can only ever take this feat on the very 1st level of Swordsage/Warblade.

So unless you take it on lv. 1, you have to multiclass into Warblade.

Might be a good idea to pick up some extra tricks along the line though.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually what that means.

Eldariel
2009-04-19, 06:05 PM
There is just a tiny little problem: You can only ever take this feat on the very 1st level of Swordsage/Warblade.

So unless you take it on lv. 1, you have to multiclass into Warblade.

Might be a good idea to pick up some extra tricks along the line though.


Lycar

*shrug* Even if some DM were dumb enough to rule it as such, you could just time your Warblade-dip on a level that grants you a feat and pick it then.

Woodsman
2009-04-19, 07:11 PM
There isn't a Special requirement saying it has to be at the first level of swordsage, crusader, or warblade. It really means you have to have levels in those three classes to take the feat.

JeminiZero
2009-04-19, 08:04 PM
Look into Shadow Blade if you have any free slots.


Shadow Blade is a tad problematic for 2WF builds (unless you are playing a race with more than 2 hands). Shadowblade is only in effect when you are in a shadowhand stance, which is ok, because some of the best stances are from Shadowhand (Spiderclimb and later Air Walk). The problem arises from these stances requiring you to have an offhand free to utilize, making it difficult to use both the shadowhand stances and 2WF.



TWF, yeah, you'll obviously need Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse. Adaptive Style on first opportunity. If you want Tiger Claw focus, I'd consider dipping Warblade for Ironheart stance to get Ironheart Aura > Stormguard Warrior; at any rate, you'll obviously enter Bloodclaw Master as soon as you qualify.


If you do go down this route, consider taking the Warblade splash on level 9 (Initiator level 5 for the warblade) and grab the ever handy Iron Heart Surge.

tyckspoon
2009-04-19, 08:47 PM
Shadow Blade is a tad problematic for 2WF builds (unless you are playing a race with more than 2 hands). Shadowblade is only in effect when you are in a shadowhand stance, which is ok, because some of the best stances are from Shadowhand (Spiderclimb and later Air Walk). The problem arises from these stances requiring you to have an offhand free to utilize, making it difficult to use both the shadowhand stances and 2WF.


There are also the grant-concealment-when-you-move and the gain-sneak-attack stances, which don't have the free hands requirement. Or using Unarmed Strike as one of your weapons, although at level 5 he's probably a little too feat starved to fit in Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike on top of everything else. Works well with the Unarmed Swordsage variant, tho.

Zhalath
2009-04-19, 09:29 PM
Swordsages are not proficient with bows, as all they have is martial melee weapons.

If you're two weapon fighting, I'd suggest rolling with two light weapons in each hand, so that Weapon Focuses can apply to each one; or, take Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, a la Complete Adventurer, which allows for wielding 2 one-handed weapons with the penalties of light weapons.

Lycar
2009-04-21, 02:39 AM
There isn't a Special requirement saying it has to be at the first level of swordsage, crusader, or warblade. It really means you have to have levels in those three classes to take the feat.

Uhm, what version of the ToB do you have?

In my version (first printing, August 2006) the prerequisite line reads: "Crusader, swordsage or warblade level 1st."

Some DMs apparently even read this as meaning that you can take this feat on your first character level only, but that is a bit too harsh I believe.

Lycar

Uin
2009-04-21, 05:31 AM
If you plan to do any sneaking, I suggest Darkstalker (LoM). Sneak up on a dragon and Five Fold Icy Enervation or Mountain Hammer shenanigans. I made a Barbarian//Swordsage recently that ended up with the following feats:

Adaptive Style, Blindfight, Cleave, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Mageslayer, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe)

Infact *digs* unfinished stat block here:



Male Whisper Gnome Barbarian 20//Swordsage 20
Small CN Humanoid (Gnome)
Initiative +14; Senses Low-Light Vision, Darkvision, Listen 5 Spot 28
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------------
AC 35, Touch 26 (+6 Spellsense), Flat-footed 35; +4 Rage, Improved Uncanny Dodge
(10+5Dex+5Wis+1Size+9Armour+5Deflection)
HP 205 (20 HD)
Immune XXX
Fort 20 Ref 22 (+4 Rage) Will 22; Improved Evasion
----------------------------------------
Speed 40ft
Melee Shadowclaw +33/+28/+23/+18 (1d12+14/19-20x3)
Rage Shadowclaw +37/+32/+27/+22 (1d20+20/19-20x3)
Base Atk +20, Grapple +22 (+4 Rage)

Class Features
Fast Movement
Mightly Whirling Frenzy 6/day
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Spellsense +6
DR 5/-

Quick to Act +5
Insightful Strike, Defensive Stance (Shadowhand, Tigerclaw)
Wis to AC
Sense Magic
Improved Evasion
Dual Boost 3/day
---------------------------------------
Stances (XXX)
xxxx
Maneuvers Readied (IL20, DC 10+lvl+[str or wis])
XXXX
Known
XXXX
---------------------------------------
Abilities
Str22 Con16 Dex20 Int10 Wis20 Cha10
Rage
Str30 Con16 Dex20 Int10 Wis20 Cha10

Feats
Adaptive Style, Blindfight, Cleave, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Mageslayer, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe)

Skills
Balance 12, Climb 11, Hide 28, Jump 35, Martial Lore 21, Move Silently 28, Spot 28, Sense Motive 10, Swim 11, Tumble 12

Possessions
+5 Shadowhand Tigerclaw Keen Greataxe
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt
+6 Periapt of Wisdom
+4 Belt of Giant Stength
+4 Gloves of Dexterity
+5 Ring of Protection
Ring of Freedom of Movement
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Belt
Boots
Stuff
Hewards Handy Haversack

Ernir
2009-04-21, 06:12 AM
In my version (first printing, August 2006) the prerequisite line reads: "Crusader, swordsage or warblade level 1st."

I read that as "if you have the first level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade, you may take this feat.", not "you may take this feat as you are taking the first level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade.". :smallconfused:

XenoGeno
2009-04-21, 06:56 AM
In my version (first printing, August 2006) the prerequisite line reads: "Crusader, swordsage or warblade level 1st."


Emphasis mine. This is the prereq line, meaning you need at least what's on the line, but you can have more. For example, Power Attack has a prereq of STR 13, but you can still take it if you have a higher strength.

If a feat can only be taken at first level, it will always (I believe, anyway, there may be exceptions) say something along the lines of:
Prerequisite: Character Level 1
Special: This feat can only be taken at level 1.

Darrin
2009-04-21, 07:43 AM
I think Weapon Finesse and TWF would be better feat choices.

Of course, I could always switch to human and get Adaptive Style anyway.

With most SwordSages, you can usually put off Adaptive Style until about ECL 6. Up to that point, combats tend to be short enough that you don't run out of maneuvers that often. For TWF, I would recommend:

1) TWF
3) Shadow Blade
6) Adaptive Style
9) Imp. TWF

The two stances you'll spend 99% of your time in are Island of Blades and Assassin's Stance. Dance of the Spider is also awesomeness on toast, but it ties up one of your hands. You can still TWF with unarmed strikes or armor spikes, but with the latter you lose out on some Shadow Blade damage. You can probably get around the weapon restrictions on Shadow Blade with an Aptitude weapon, but as with any TWF build your weapon enhancements can get expensive.

If you're going into Bloodclaw Master to eliminate TWF penalties, the only two weapons that overlap are daggers and unarmed strikes (and an Aptitude weapon won't help here, since BCM's Superior TWF ability isn't a feat). If you're going the unarmed swordsage route, just keep an eye out for light armor without any armor check penalties. Mithril Sectioned Armor (partially reduced, from the Planar Handbook) has the same armor bonus as a breastplate and ACP = 0, but the max Dex bonus is only +4. You can also stack a masterwork dastana and chahar-aina (Oriental Adventures) on top of a mithril chain shirt for a +6 armor bonus and ACP = 0.

If you go with a human, strongheart halfling, or azurin, you can pick up Weapon Finesse at ECL 3 (stupid +1 BAB requirement). Another good bonus feat to pick up is Travel Devotion (CompChamp), particularly if you pick up Pounce somewhere such as dipping Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

Lycar
2009-04-21, 12:03 PM
I read that as "if you have the first level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade, you may take this feat.", not "you may take this feat as you are taking the first level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade.". :smallconfused:

Emphasis mine. This is the prereq line, meaning you need at least what's on the line, but you can have more. For example, Power Attack has a prereq of STR 13, but you can still take it if you have a higher strength.

If a feat can only be taken at first level, it will always (I believe, anyway, there may be exceptions) say something along the lines of:
Prerequisite: Character Level 1
Special: This feat can only be taken at level 1.

:smalleek::smallamused::smallbiggrin: Thanks, you two made my day. I'm so gonna have a little chat with our tabletop DM this weekend!

Lycar