Is arcane power addictive?

[King of Nowhere]

I mean, consider every (non bard) arcane caster we saw in the comic: Xykon, V, Eugene, Julia...
They're all firmly rooted at the center of their universe, believe they're super powerful and super important, that they can do everything and other people are crap, are extremely arrrogant. Also, they can't ever get enough power.
It may be that power itself goes to the head, but on the other hand we saw that divine spellcasters, who are more powerful than them (say CoDzillas) are not affected by the same flaw. At least, Durkon is not neither Redcloack (who has other flaws), and Lirian apparently wasn't. The gnome in cliffport was, but he was evil and not completely sane.

So, is arcane magic a sort of drug? Something that cause assuefaction, feelings of onnipotence, and perception that you are the only smart guy on the world?
Discuss

[Kaed]

There is the chief difference in that divine spellcasters receive their powers from a higher authority because they dedicate their lives to such a cause, whilst arcane spellcasters simply rip the cosmos asunder through the sheer force of their will alone.

Reality and physics are but their idle playthings, who would dare deny the power of arcane might, when their very existence could be so easily be reduced to a few scatterings of ash at your smallest whim?

BWAHAHAHA! :amused:

Sorry. :vaarsuvius:

[JoseB]

Well, it appears to be so, and it appears to be so across different webcomic universes... Witness Black Mage from 8-bit theater...

"Why, it would take some kind of insane megalomaniacal fiend to take pleasure in wielding the tapestry of creation to focus pure energy into reality through nothing more than my own will, the rush of electricity through my being, the power--my God, the power! It's the only time I feel aliiiiiiiiive!"

Ahem. Nothing to see here, people... Move on, move on...

[BlueWizard]

What? What?! What are you saying?!?

[Roc Ness]

...

...




... I like magic...


... Please don't hurt me...

[BlueWizard]

Roc! Don't tell them! Keep the secret!

[Roc Ness]

...

... Does this mean I should change my signature?

[Assassin89]

I'm pretty sure that all types of power are addictive if one lets it go out of control.

[JJ48]

Being a mage is sort of like being a politician, I guess. Both are generally corrupt, and think that they're the center of the universe. The more power they gain, the more corrupt they are. Though, it would be POSSIBLE to have one who is humble and altruistic. Perhaps moreso for mages than for politicians.

[Shpadoinkle]

Well, take a look at what wizards and sorcerers are capable of. Seriously, just look. By the time 3rd level spells come around, they're already a thousand times more powerful than any normal person could ever really hope to be, and thier power goes up from there- exponentially, no less.

Yes, I think it's entirely reasonable for someone with that kind of power to develop something of a god complex.

[Roc Ness]

What about Merlin?

[King of Nowhere]

Apparently, arcane power is addictive not only for those who wields it, but also for some people lurking in this forum...


Well, take a look at what wizards and sorcerers are capable of. Seriously, just look. By the time 3rd level spells come around, they're already a thousand times more powerful than any normal person could ever really hope to be, and thier power goes up from there- exponentially, no less.

By the time someone hit level 5-6, every class is already a thousand times more powerful than any normal persona could ever really hope to be.
And clerics are generally more powerful than wizards, yet they don't develop god complexes.
Maybe it's really because they get their power from someone else, but tecnically even the politicians get the power from the people, yet it don't seems to matter much in most cases...

Probably the power-hungry wizard is a tradition.

[KillianHawkeye]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And arcane power corrupts... arcanely... I guess. I dunno. :smallwink::smallamused:

[Haven]

Magic is not an addiction!

</Giles>

[nysisobli]

Get your spells here 10 gold level 1 spells 10 gold, if it wasn't addictive do you think i would make a living at selling it?

On a related note i guess i picked the wrong week to stop sniffing pixie dust.

[Lissou]

Well, sorcerers are special people, even in the DnD world. They have their power, without studying, don't need to prepare spells and so on, their power comes from within.
That could probably raise your ego exponentially.

Wizards, on the other end... Well, think about it for a second. People aren't born with a job. They chose it. What kind of people is willing to dedicate that much time and effort to getting spells? They need to have some kind of fascination for it to begin with, I'd say. Let's just look at Roy's family. He could have chosen to be a wizard, but decided not to. Not surprisingly, he's also the one who isn't as you described.

It's also possible we haven't seen enough people to really judge. But a cleric who would act that way could lose their powers, since the gods grant them spell and could decide not to. Same with all divine casters, really. Arcana casters on the other hand don't have to stay humble.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Let's put aside the cut catchphrases about power corrupting absolutely and whatnot. Ever person in existence desires power, but they have to draw lines on which kinds of power they'll accept.

The reason arcane casters are the center of their universe is because they know they're important. Ask any healthcare worker what they think of doctors and you'll get a similar answer.

Now imagine asking a person with a bent for rationality, mathematics and language if he'd feel fulfilled by a skill that would allow him to be able to reprogram any facet of reality at a whim by a creative application of intellect. What is this person's answer?

[Mewtarthio]

The crucial difference between divine power and arcane power is that divine power comes with a god who can smack you down if you give in to hubris.


Magic is not an addiction!

</Giles>

And it really should have stayed that way. :smallmad:

[Thajocoth]

King or not, it is unwise to insinuate that those who can turn you to dust with a mere thought are imperfect.

[Dagren]

I think a big part of the thing with clerics is that it isn't their own personal power, they are merely a proxy for their god. This is obviously different to wizards.

[David Argall]

Properly speaking anything you like is addictive.

Now we would expect that wizards as a group will be different from clerics. They have a different relationship with their source of power. But I would suspect any similarity we see is due to small sample or writer convenience rather than wizards being restricted to a particular personality type.

[Laughing Dragon]

Properly speaking anything you like is addictive.

Now we would expect that wizards as a group will be different from clerics. They have a different relationship with their source of power. But I would suspect any similarity we see is due to small sample or writer convenience rather than wizards being restricted to a particular personality type.

But that's the problem ... wizards ARE a particular personality type. Think about it ... very intellegent ... into studying and research ... spend lots of time indoors in their labs or libraries ... collect things like bat guano, crystals, and other oddments ... (I could continue, but I think you get the picture).

THEY'RE NERDS! And like a nerd on a bender ... wizards often get a little nutty/self-absorbed/obsessive-compulsive ... which is addict-like behavior or god-complex behavior.

[Kato]

Magic is not an addiction!

</Giles>


And here I was kinda hoping there could be no mention of that horrible Buffy subplot.
But I think I'll agree with the power thing... Disworld once noted magic was better than sex, and then who'd stop using magic, ever?

[MCerberus]

All power is addictive and the addiction is progressive. I'd imagine arcane power is no different. V is likely going to go through some pretty harsh withdrawal.

[King of Nowhere]

My idea about divine spellcaster was that they're generally quieter because they have high wisdom. High wisdom means better understanding of your own limits, and thus less likelyhood of developing arrogance. None of the wizards we've seen until now appears to have a wis better than average (except for Xykon, but he got +5 from age + lich, he got a bad wis when he was young and his personality was developing).
Receiving your powers from someone else helps, too. Not in the sense "they smack you down if you get over your head", but in the sense of reminding you constantly that there are things greater than yourself.

[evileeyore]

Depends on the mythology.... but most of them paint Magic as a tremendous force, ability, power, etc... and Power is addictive.


I like the way 10th Kingdom handled magical addiction.

[DoctorJest]

I mean, consider every (non bard) arcane caster we saw in the comic: Xykon, V, Eugene, Julia...
They're all firmly rooted at the center of their universe, believe they're super powerful and super important, that they can do everything and other people are crap, are extremely arrrogant. Also, they can't ever get enough power.
It may be that power itself goes to the head, but on the other hand we saw that divine spellcasters, who are more powerful than them (say CoDzillas) are not affected by the same flaw. At least, Durkon is not neither Redcloack (who has other flaws), and Lirian apparently wasn't. The gnome in cliffport was, but he was evil and not completely sane.

So, is arcane magic a sort of drug? Something that cause assuefaction, feelings of onnipotence, and perception that you are the only smart guy on the world?
Discuss

I think it's more the case that the kind of person who has those personality traits is drawn to practicing arcane magics than it being the magic that does it to them. You have to already have a pretty good sense of self importance to say "I think I want to learn how to make all of reality bend itself into a pretzel to satisfy my whims."

[dps]

Nale's an arcane caster (granted, not a pure caster; he's a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer ) and while he is arrogant and power-hungry, he doesn't seem addicted to magic. The the guy that Shojo lent the OotS to teleport them to Cliffport seemed to have had and addiction, but it wasn't to arcane power.

[Thajocoth]

Also... Elan. Unless Bards aren't arcane in 3.5. I haven't actually played 3.5.

[lord_khaine]

read the OP? the first thing he does is to exclude Bards.


I mean, consider every (non bard) arcane caster we saw in the comic: Xykon, V, Eugene, Julia...
They're all firmly rooted at the center of their universe, believe they're super powerful and super important, that they can do everything and other people are crap, are extremely arrrogant. Also, they can't ever get enough power.


to start with you are generalising traits that one or 2 of the people you meantion have over to the rest of the arcane casters.
yes, all of them are arrogant to some degree, but as for the super powerful part, then Xykon, V and Eugene are all right to considder themself so, considdering that none of them has less than 9 levels of arcane caster, making each of them able to slay a entire regiment of normal militia without trouble.

but i would say its really only Xykon and V who acts like they can do everything, and since both of them wield epic level magic thats not far from the truth.
as for treating other people like crap, thats mostly only those 2 as well, in the case of Eugene and Julia its mostly just that they have a strained relationship with Roy, the person they interact with the most.

lastly, for the cant get enough power part, then it only apply to Xykon, V actualy got enough power, Eugene was more focused on fame, and Julia is still in school.


It may be that power itself goes to the head, but on the other hand we saw that divine spellcasters, who are more powerful than them (say CoDzillas) are not affected by the same flaw. At least, Durkon is not neither Redcloack (who has other flaws), and Lirian apparently wasn't. The gnome in cliffport was, but he was evil and not completely sane

ahh, thats another thing i disagree about, Divine casters really isnt quite as powerfull as arcane casters.
and if you dont count the gnome because he was evil, and might have been less than sane (i dont belive people who cant turn into bears should think they are allowed to judge what is sane in a druid), then we suddenly also have to discount Xykon and V from the observed arcane casters, leaving only Eugene who most of the comments did not apply to, and Julia who can be excused because she is a teenager.

[Dagren]

read the OP? the first thing he does is to exclude Bards.Well yeah, because their very existence blows a massive hole in his theory. They use arcane magic and aren't of the personality type he describes. And that's not even mentioning the other arcane casters that have been mentioned that don't fit.

[Kaytara]

I'm with Lissou and DoctorJest on this one. Becoming a successful wizard requires intelligence and insane amounts of patience and single-minded dedication. It makes sense that powerful casters are people who were obsessed with magic from the start - obsession makes pursuing a demanding activity all that much easier.


Well yeah, because their very existence blows a massive hole in his theory. They use arcane magic and aren't of the personality type he describes. And that's not even mentioning the other arcane casters that have been mentioned that don't fit.

Bards don't blow a hole in the theory, they're excluded for a completely different reason. They're in a different league than wizards and sorcerers because they can never learn such overwhelmingly powerful spells as Time Stop and the like. They do not rend reality, they can only tug at it for a bit. So it's not really POWER in the same sense that we're using for wizards and sorcerers.

[Dagren]

Bards don't blow a hole in the theory, they're excluded for a completely different reason. They're in a different league than wizards and sorcerers because they can never learn such overwhelmingly powerful spells as Time Stop and the like. They do not rend reality, they can only tug at it for a bit. So it's not really POWER in the same sense that we're using for wizards and sorcerers.Ah, see that's where I think we're misunderstanding each other. See, the OP seems to be saying that it's something inherent to the nature of arcane magic itself, hence his exclusion of divine casters (despite that cleric spells are more potent than bard spells, and some can rival wizard spells). This might be a point except for the bards, who also use arcane magic but don't have the same neuroses. So it obviously isn't the difference between arcane and divine magic that causes it, or else bards would be affected too. Besides, he used Julia as an example, and she sure as hell can't cast time stop either. She is in fact likely far less powerful than Elan. So what's left? Well, like you say it's the fact that wizards get the most powerful spells (I agree with you there), and not something inherent to the nature of magic itself (as the OP seems to be saying). Like I said, a misunderstanding.

[AgentPaper]

Arcane power isn't addictive, POWER is addictive. Bards seem to be an exception because bards by their nature tend to be lighthearted and are constantly reminded of the danger of power in the legends the tell. Not to mention that they have less power in the first place.

You see less divine power-crazed, because if they lost their way their god would take that power from them, and having to request their spells in the first place and the constant reminder of how much more powerful the gods are probably helps to keep them humble. You can still see clerics as power-mad as wizards, though, especially for gods who encourage that behavior. (mostly evil ones)

Wizards and Sorcerers on the other hand have nobody to tell them they aren't that great, and nobody to keep them from abusing their power. Plus, blowing people up with your mind tends to give you ideas...:smallamused:

So no, I don't think arcane magic itself is any more or less addictive than other magic, though I do think the way they get it leads to more unchecked usage than divine magic.

[Snake-Aes]

Arcane power isn't addictive, POWER is addictive. Bards seem to be an exception because bards by their nature tend to be lighthearted and are constantly reminded of the danger of power in the legends the tell. Not to mention that they have less power in the first place.


It's a difference in goals and archetypes. Bards are people fascinated by art, lore... They hone their knowledge and art. Magic is more of a "consequence" of their training.

Wizards are on a totally different level. A wizard is basically a scholar. He devotes his life to research of magic itself, and lives to develop, test and discover new spells. It literally is "The work of his life".

Also, the range of what a wizard can do with magic is much greater than what other classes can do at the same level, even if it's not more powerful in combat.


What it takes to be a wizard is more likely to end in power-crazed villain stories than what it takes to be a bard, fighter, ranger, paladin, cleric, rogue...

[Fjolnir]

A good example of arcane power addiction is in Joel Rosenburg's Guardians of the Flame series, it details a group of people who are brought into another world by a wizard with a grudge (not that the characters initially know he's a wizard or that there's a grudge) 2 of the characters are wizards in the initial group one is very powerful, the other is fairly weak. at first the powerful wizard is obsessed with his spellbooks, magic and whatnot until he loses the abilities of magic to pay for a resurrection of one of their friends, then he falls back on his skills from the 'real world' to assist his friends. The other caster ends up going the same route, because the amount of mental control you need to keep the spells IN your head is immense so most casters tend to fall into the trap of being focused on gaining power or maintaining the power in their heads in order to flex their mental muscles as it were to gain MORE power...

[Snake-Aes]

A good example of arcane power addiction is in Joel Rosenburg's Guardians of the Flame series: it details a group of people who are brought into another world by a wizard with a grudge (not that the characters initially know he's a wizard or that there's a grudge). 2 of the characters are wizards in the initial group. One is very powerful, the other is fairly weak. At first the powerful wizard is obsessed with his spellbooks, magic and whatnot, until he loses the abilities of magic to pay for a resurrection of one of their friends, then he falls back on his skills from the 'real world' to assist his friends. The other caster ends up going the same route, because the amount of mental control you need to keep the spells IN your head is immense so most casters tend to fall into the trap of being focused on gaining power or maintaining the power in their heads in order to flex their mental muscles as it were to gain MORE power...

That is more about "Biting more than you can chew", or "Messing volatile explosives with a bumper sticker and a mixer" than an addiction. In both cases you exemplified, they didn't get addicted to their power. One got "owned" by it because he couldn't handle it properly, and the other had to give it up for something else.

[King of Nowhere]

Ah, see that's where I think we're misunderstanding each other. See, the OP seems to be saying that it's something inherent to the nature of arcane magic itself, hence his exclusion of divine casters (despite that cleric spells are more potent than bard spells, and some can rival wizard spells). This might be a point except for the bards, who also use arcane magic but don't have the same neuroses.

You are probably right. If arcane power were a sort of drug, than even bards would suffer from it. It may be that bards are immune to that thanks to their light-spirited nature, and the smaller doses they are exposed to, but more probably it is about the sort of personality that has the greatest chance of devoting his life to magic.




to start with you are generalising traits that one or 2 of the people you meantion have over to the rest of the arcane casters.

You can't expect arcane casters to be all alike. Yes, they are different, and none of them really fit the stereotype I described, but that doesn't means that there is not a pattern in it

[Rotipher]

Bards may be exempt because they're artists first, spellcasters second. An artist already has something else -- his performance -- to channel his personal drives and obsessions into, and is more inclined to aspire to intangible things like beauty and expressiveness, not raw power.

[Ramidel]

ahh, thats another thing i disagree about, Divine casters really isnt quite as powerfull as arcane casters.

It's a generally-accepted statement built up by years upon years of 3.5e experience. Arcane casters have more direct-damage power, and have a couple of real gamebreaker spells, but as a whole, divine casters are more powerful and versatile than divine. Saying "I don't agree" without being able to back that up with reasons just marks you as a newbie.
---
That said, I think that I'm more of the opinion that wizardry corrupts more because it attracts people who are willing to seek either knowledge or power at all costs. Sorcery corrupts, meanwhile, because sorcerers tend to get their power long before they learn the wisdom to control it, and also because strong sorcerers are generally very commanding individuals and -expect- everything to obey their will. (Charisma and all.)

[recluso]

My impression is the only arcane class in OOTS that gets some constant trait is sorcerer: Xykon, Samantha, Nale. (sorcerer: always evil and arrogant)

Celia is not a real sorceress and only arrogant.

Clerics can be power obsessed too: the Azure city high priest sounded that way (oots#456) "ultimate duel between clerics". Yes, this is played for laughs, still a power obsessed.

Dorukan: seems not that power hungry.
Pompey: other flaws.
Goblin wizard who cast Dancing Lights: Loyal to his duty (a bit vengefull ofc)

How to count Tsukiko, being half arcane?

[Theodoriph]

I mean, consider every (non bard) arcane caster we saw in the comic: Xykon, V, Eugene, Julia...
They're all firmly rooted at the center of their universe, believe they're super powerful and super important, that they can do everything and other people are crap, are extremely arrrogant. Also, they can't ever get enough power.
It may be that power itself goes to the head, but on the other hand we saw that divine spellcasters, who are more powerful than them (say CoDzillas) are not affected by the same flaw. At least, Durkon is not neither Redcloack (who has other flaws), and Lirian apparently wasn't. The gnome in cliffport was, but he was evil and not completely sane.

So, is arcane magic a sort of drug? Something that cause assuefaction, feelings of onnipotence, and perception that you are the only smart guy on the world?
Discuss


Xykon = Chaotic Evil
Julia = Teenager
Eugene = Domineering Father
V = PC


Well look at that...many of the characteristics are related to those roles. :smalltongue:

Also, none of the above (except maybe Xykon) believe they are super-important, nor do they (except Xykon) believe that other people are crap.


They're all far more intelligent than the average person and they're all super powerful...so...there's nothing wrong with them believing they are...both are true.

That being said, neither Julia, nor Eugene, nor V really fit the personality type you're trying to portray them as.

Also, Shojo's wizard doesn't really display any of those qualities. :P

[grautry]

It's a generally-accepted statement built up by years upon years of 3.5e experience. Arcane casters have more direct-damage power, and have a couple of real gamebreaker spells, but as a whole, divine casters are more powerful and versatile than divine. Saying "I don't agree" without being able to back that up with reasons just marks you as a newbie.

Here's my reason: if divine magic was indeed more powerful than arcane magic then every time you went on char-op boards to ask a question about wizards, someone would tell you to play a cleric.

Why? Because clerics are better than wizards in almost every way. Better armor. Better hit die. Better saves. Better metamagic(divine cheese). The only difference lies in spell list(wizards also have more skill points). So, there must be something in that spell list that is good enough that the most overpowered classes in the game are the Big Five and not the Big Two(Cleric and Archivist).

Like what, you may ask? The entire polymorph line. The entire celerity/time stop line. The number of saves-or-loses or save-or-dies. Way better battlefield control. The number of total wtfpwn gamebreakers like Genesis.

Admittedly, you can grab some of those with domains, but you'll never have them all.

As for the reasons for the arrogance? Remember that OotS world has people aware of the game mechanics. Not only are wizards(or sorcerers) - as adventuring classes - the most powerful people around. They're also a part of the Big Five. They know, without any doubt, that they're the most powerful people around. Arcane casters also don't have any allegiance to greater forces than themselves like divine casters. And last but not least - hello, they reshape reality to their will?

Look around how power gets to people's heads in the real world. Now imagine that those people not only had political/military/economic power, they could enslave people at a whim, summon monsters that can tear apart armies, manipulate time itself and overall - just reshape the fabric or reality.

I don't think that magic is inherently addictive. I think it's simply a part of human nature.

[Godskook]

@OP

Um, we kinda knew this already. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1010026)


How to count Tsukiko, being half arcane?

Apparently, anyone who goes theurge isn't addicted to power.

[Kaytara]

Xykon = Chaotic Evil
Julia = Teenager
Eugene = Domineering Father
V = PC
Also, none of the above (except maybe Xykon) believe they are super-important, nor do they (except Xykon) believe that other people are crap.

A minor note: Eugene holds the "self-important" position well enough. In SoD, Sarah complains how he hasn't bothered to learn the football rules in order to understand what little Roy is achieving in the sport, even though doing so would take him less time than learning a new 1st level spell, and that he just considers it to be beneath him because being a wizard is the only thing he considers to be important, and he can't appreciate the talents OTHER people have. So Eugene is actually a pretty good match.

[spectralphoenix]

If you notice, Julia never says anything about her Ultimate Arcane Power (well, she teases Roy a bit, but that's just because it gets under his skin.) She's self-centered, sure, but it's always in relationship to her popularity at school and physical attractiveness, not her magical ability.

Xykon's crazy, sure, but he's not really obsessed with his own personal arcane power either. He never does anything just to show off how personally powerful he is. He's perfectly happy working with a cleric to command the snarl (instead of becoming all-powerful himself) or using minions to do a job he could do with magic.

Celia is a sorceress, and not only doesn't brag about it, but has an extremely unselfish philosophy.

Nale is a sorceror, and while self-centered, never really treats his magic as anything more than another tool. Mostly he takes subtle spells that assist him rather than flashy ones.

[Kaytara]

Xykon's crazy, sure, but he's not really obsessed with his own personal arcane power either. He never does anything just to show off how personally powerful he is. He's perfectly happy working with a cleric to command the snarl (instead of becoming all-powerful himself) or using minions to do a job he could do with magic.

Xykon's the one with the line "There is a level of force against which no tactic can succeed". So I'd say power is a pretty big thing for him, after all.

[Volkov]

Arcane magic was invented by either dragons or aboleths, probably Aboleths, since they came first, and either of these creatures are egotistical in the extreme. So it probably is a requirement.

[Snake-Aes]

Arcane magic was invented by either dragons or aboleths, probably Aboleths, since they came first, and either of these creatures are egotistical in the extreme. So it probably is a requirement.

I don't see how it connects. Magic is more like just another force of nature that you can bend into spells with tangible effects. Plus it's totally plausible to see a benevolent wizard. They can be of any alignment, can't they? A Good wizard is much less likely to be egotistical or psychotic than a neutral or evil wizard because it's part of the nature of a good person.
It's a bit like a scientist or one of those "phd are for dumb monkey" wusses, they really just prize their own work so much it can blind them to everything else.I imagine the dedication necessary to wizardry isn't something that can be done if you aren't completely obstinate, focused and devoted to your work.

[Fillerman]

Alright, I'm coming on the forums after lurking to post this:
It's the personality that counts.
My first character was a fighter, but my second one was a wizard in the same campaign, and while he did want to get stronger, it was always for the persuit of finishing a goal for the greater good.
- His arcane studies helped him understand and use an epic ice spell (scroll, yes, could be used by 'use magic device', but was still epic fun to research and then unravel it) to destroy an Adult Red Dragon. (he also learned it's truename, but that never panned out.)
- He created doubles (simuclarum) of himself and his teammates to protect the lands while the party was off elsewhere.

not related arcanely: -An idiotic party member (played by me), decided to use the deck of many things and got his soul stolen. The wizard, as now tossed into my hands, as my new character, decided to step in for him when he could have easily let any one else in the party/room deal with it.
This funnily enough helped us beat the big bad, as he got frozen by the deck for trying to stop us from using it.

[magic9mushroom]

I wouldn't say addictive per se.

I would say that:

a) the sheer bloody-mindedness required to become a wizard has a tendency to attract power-hungry individuals in the first place;

b) Being able to reshape reality does tend to go to your head. More so for sorcerers than wizards. Witness Xykon's little speech about it.

I would note that this isn't so much a function of arcane power as power for its own sake - Clerics and Druids don't get this as much because to become one in the first place requires humility, and they are reminded of this every day they pray for spells. Likewise, a bard's talent grows out of his art - and isn't as much "reality raping" anyway (evil bards can still end up with a lot of the same traits though). However, an Ur-priest... yeah. They're I think described as power-hungry in their entry. We just haven't seen any Ur-Priests in OOTS yet...

Oh crap, I just got a vision of V going down that road...

[magic9mushroom]

Xykon's crazy, sure, but he's not really obsessed with his own personal arcane power either. He never does anything just to show off how personally powerful he is. He's perfectly happy working with a cleric to command the snarl (instead of becoming all-powerful himself) or using minions to do a job he could do with magic.

Not obsessed, but he sure lords it over everyone.


Celia is a sorceress, and not only doesn't brag about it, but has an extremely unselfish philosophy.

Celia's philosophy is extremely selfish. Think about it for a second.


Nale is a sorceror, and while self-centered, never really treats his magic as anything more than another tool. Mostly he takes subtle spells that assist him rather than flashy ones.

Nale is "really" a bard, though. He just went fighter/rogue/sorceror because his father taught him that bards were underpowered.

[Volkov]

I don't see how it connects. Magic is more like just another force of nature that you can bend into spells with tangible effects. Plus it's totally plausible to see a benevolent wizard. They can be of any alignment, can't they? A Good wizard is much less likely to be egotistical or psychotic than a neutral or evil wizard because it's part of the nature of a good person.
It's a bit like a scientist or one of those "phd are for dumb monkey" wusses, they really just prize their own work so much it can blind them to everything else.I imagine the dedication necessary to wizardry isn't something that can be done if you aren't completely obstinate, focused and devoted to your work.

Dear gods, can you not see a joke.

[Snake-Aes]

Nor the reason for such indignation, for you to speak about it that way, I must have caused a truly outrageous animosity with you

[magic9mushroom]

Dear gods, can you not see a joke.

It didn't read like a joke.

[spectralphoenix]

Not obsessed, but he sure lords it over everyone. He has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to wizards (which judging from SoD is somewhat justified,) but do you really think he'd be that different as an epic level fighter who could bisect anyone he felt like with no effort?




Celia's philosophy is extremely selfish. Think about it for a second. I suspect that the only real problem with Celia is that people are bringing so much of their own baggage from RL pacifism into things. She never actively interferes with Haley or Belkar when they're defending themselves, and she generally provides good alternatives to fighting things out. And unless your blaming her for not having Belkar and Haleys level of experience (literally and figuratively) her philosophy never put them in danger either.

And furthermore, even if pacifism is self-centered, it has nothing to do with her magical ability.




Nale is "really" a bard, though. He just went fighter/rogue/sorceror because his father taught him that bards were underpowered. But he's still a sorceror. He could take doom spells if he wanted, and I never see him going about with a song in his heart or anything like that.

When it comes down to it, yes, a lot of wizards are self-centered. But if you think about it, that's probably because self-centered people choose classes like wizard that don't need as much help from other people. Fighters need support. Non-CoDzilla clerics need people to heal and buff. Rogues need flankers. Rangers and Paladins can use their spells to be fairly self-sufficient (at nowhere near the power level of the wizard, but they have less obvious deficiencies.) And who do we know who are rangers and paladins? Miko, who was so self-centered that the other two are basically responses to her because the obsessed paladin is such a stereotype, and Belkar. The self-described "Sexy Shoeless God of War" who goes around killing things just to show he can. If Belkar was a wizard, he would fit the bill better than V.

[Volkov]

Nor the reason for such indignation, for you to speak about it that way, I must have caused a truly outrageous animosity with you
I pride myself on my sarcasm and humor, and it gets me fairly mad when no one can get it.

[Snake-Aes]

I pride myself on my sarcasm and humor, and it gets me fairly mad when no one can get it.

If you want your sarcasm to be detected, make it clear :p Sometimes we think that stuff is "Just too obvious", when it truly is obvious only to you. It's a matter of context really. Communication is always funneled down the lowest level amongst the interested parties, and without sounds, Sarcasm isn't as easy to transmit.

[Fjolnir]

One got "owned" by it because he couldn't handle it properly, and the other had to give it up for something else.

Well the character who gives it up actually describes magic as an addicting substance, a very powerful one and when he gives it up it is with great reluctance, when the second character descends into the depths of attempting to gain more arcane power to locate her husband who is missing, presumed dead it goes unnoticed for a long time because she's hiding under an illusion to make herself look much less strung out and haggard than she does.

[Callista]

It's probably just that the kind of people who can master arcane power tend to be a little obsessive and power-hungry in the first place. It takes a lot of studying, and if you're not dedicated, if magic isn't the number-one thing in your life, you'll never get past cantrips.

Ever seen how research scientists get with their work? Same thing with magic--only you don't need the chemicals to produce the fireballs.

[Qwerty98765]

You know, as a nerdy academic sort, I can understand a bit where these wizards are coming from, psychologically - The ability to manipulate reality in the same manner you can manipulate complex concepts in your head, or write programs on a computer? That would be some heady power indeed!

What puzzles me though, is V's current attitude towards his temporary power. While I can understand why he(she?) took the deal initially to save his family, it doesn't quite mesh with my understanding of the wizard archetype to consider that power his/hers? ultimate arcane power. Why does he seem proud of it? After all, it doesn't arise from his own understanding. He didn't earn it, probably doesn't even understand it fully. It's on loan.

It would be sort of like showing off a paper that you cribbed off of some other student's work, or bragging about a test you had someone else take for you.

I suppose it could be judgement collapse as a result of serious sleep deprivation. Were I in his shoes, I would consider the soul splice a regrettable but necessary crutch to fill in a gap in native ability in that emergency, not something to show off, and certainly far too dangerous to attempt to hold onto!

[lord_khaine]

You can't expect arcane casters to be all alike. Yes, they are different, and none of them really fit the stereotype I described, but that doesn't means that there is not a pattern in it


yes, as i noted later in my post that pattern is the evil aligment, affecting the 2 most arrogant and selfcentered arcane casters we have seen so far.

also, as a counter example i would like to present Dorukan from SoD, who quietly spend the rest of his life in a small castle in the middel of nowhere, guarding a abomination that could end the world.


It's a generally-accepted statement built up by years upon years of 3.5e experience. Arcane casters have more direct-damage power, and have a couple of real gamebreaker spells, but as a whole, divine casters are more powerful and versatile than divine. Saying "I don't agree" without being able to back that up with reasons just marks you as a newbie.

no, what is a generaly acceptet statement is that true power lies in arcane magic, and you talking about direct damage marks you as being totaly clueless.
arcane magic has the most effective defensive spells, the best utility spells, and such a diverse offensive arsenal of no save-you suck/die

[Omegonthesane]

no, what is a generaly acceptet statement is that true power lies in arcane magic, and you talking about direct damage marks you as being totaly clueless.
arcane magic has the most effective defensive spells, the best utility spells, and such a diverse offensive arsenal of no save-you suck/die

There's a reason it's CoDzilla, not WoSzilla. Clerics and Druids get every spell on their spell list available. Every single one. Within the Core books they're relatively balanced but things get crazy just a few splatbooks in.

[Winthur]

divine casters are more powerful and versatile than divine

:smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

Ever seen how research scientists get with their work? Same thing with magic--only you don't need the chemicals to produce the fireballs.
I know many scientist and they're all normal people :smalleek:



yes, as i noted later in my post that pattern is the evil aligment, affecting the 2 most arrogant and selfcentered arcane casters we have seen so far.

also, as a counter example i would like to present Dorukan from SoD, who quietly spend the rest of his life in a small castle in the middel of nowhere, guarding a abomination that could end the world.
Not the point. V wasn't evil before the splice, and he was like that anyway. That leaves with 1 on 4, in line with statistics. And Eugene was tecnically considered good, so we have a LG, two NN, and on CE.
As for Dorukan, we know little of him, but in SoD during his fight with Xykon he seems a bit arrogant.


arcane magic has the most effective defensive spells, the best utility spells, and such a diverse offensive arsenal of no save-you suck/die

I tend to figure that wizard's spells are more poowerful than clerical spells, but not so much more powerful to compensate for better hit dice, saving throws, and BAB.

[magic9mushroom]

There's a reason it's CoDzilla, not WoSzilla. Clerics and Druids get every spell on their spell list available. Every single one. Within the Core books they're relatively balanced but things get crazy just a few splatbooks in.

If Clerics had Wizard hit dice, saves, and BAB, they wouldn't be half as much of a "zilla".

CoDzilla is based around buff-spamming and going One Winged Angel.

Wizards aren't as good at that, but are far more versatile in other areas, and end up with enough power to one-shot a CoDzilla if you go down the metamagic route.

Direct offense with spells, Wizards all the way.

[Rotipher]

Arcane magic was invented by either dragons or aboleths, probably Aboleths, since they came first, and either of these creatures are egotistical in the extreme. So it probably is a requirement.


Maybe that's so in the "generic D&D" universe, but we don't know who or what invented arcane magic in the Stickverse. For all we know, aboleths don't exist there at all, or were created in a mad alchemist's laboratory last week.

[grautry]

There's a reason it's CoDzilla, not WoSzilla. Clerics and Druids get every spell on their spell list available. Every single one. Within the Core books they're relatively balanced but things get crazy just a few splatbooks in.

And there's a reason why it's a Batman Wizard and not a Batman Cleric.

Clerics are better at transforming into a BSF because they have 3/4 BAB, good hit die and good armor. The fact that they're at a better starting point to become Zillas doesn't mean that their spells are more powerful.

And besides? The ability to transform yourself into one of the weakest classes in the game doesn't scream 'power'.

[wootage]

All power of any kind is addictive. That's why you must all give all power of any kind to me. It's for your own good :D

[Kaytara]

What puzzles me though, is V's current attitude towards his temporary power. While I can understand why he(she?) took the deal initially to save his family, it doesn't quite mesh with my understanding of the wizard archetype to consider that power his/hers? ultimate arcane power. Why does he seem proud of it? After all, it doesn't arise from his own understanding. He didn't earn it, probably doesn't even understand it fully. It's on loan.

The way I understand it, Vaarsuvius is just really, really starved for someone showing appreciation for him and his arcane abilities, and he no longer cares if those abilities are truly HIS or just something he's gotten his hands on and is waving around at the moment. It's not logical, but logic is no longer a priority when your psyche has been blown to as many pieces as V's has.

[Omegonthesane]

And there's a reason why it's a Batman Wizard and not a Batman Cleric.

Clerics are better at transforming into a BSF because they have 3/4 BAB, good hit die and good armor. The fact that they're at a better starting point to become Zillas doesn't mean that their spells are more powerful.

And besides? The ability to transform yourself into one of the weakest classes in the game doesn't scream 'power'.
I don't get the "weakest classes in the game" bit; I can only think of what happens to a Wizard who zaps Disjunction at an artefact.

And of course Cleric spells aren't more powerful than Wizard/Sorcerer spells. That's kinda the whole point; otherwise, as said earlier in the thread, it would be the Big Two not the Big Five. The "it's CoDzilla not WoSzilla" was countering someone who seemed to be dismissing clerics entirely without a whole lot of justification.

[grautry]

And of course Cleric spells aren't more powerful than Wizard/Sorcerer spells. That's kinda the whole point; otherwise, as said earlier in the thread, it would be the Big Two not the Big Five. The "it's CoDzilla not WoSzilla" was countering someone who seemed to be dismissing clerics entirely without a whole lot of justification.

Ah, my mistake then. What I meant is that although transforming yourself CoDzilla is quite impressive(you can be after all, as good or even better than martial fighters), the spells they have are still a better feature than transforming yourself into a martial monster. CoDzilla transformation is merely the icing on a cake of a good spell list.

But the deal looks like this: wizards/sorcerers have the most powerful spell list of any class. However, they also have pretty crappy saves, lowest possible hit dice, lowest possible BAB and so on.

Cleric/Druid spell list is inherently weaker but they compensate by having good BAB/saves/armor or powerful class features like Animal Companion or Wildshape.

However, if you compare magic alone - that is, the spell lists - then Wizards/Sorcerers win without question.

[Elan man]

in my opinion i would love arcane power

[liooil2000]

anything can be addictive, as long as you like it or it has fumes. There just is different levels of addictibility.

[Elan man]

I want arcane power it would be so sick