Fallout 4 announced!

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hi everybody!

It's official! Bethesa announced the production of Fallout : New Vegas.

Here is a link

http://www.edge-online.com/news/new-fallout-title-unveiled

The game will be produced by Obsidian. Seeing their skill with dialogues and intricated plotlines (KOTOR2), I hope it will feel good in the end!

[nhbdy]

I heard bad things about KOTOR 2, so knowing that company will be in charge worries me a bit. The link doesn't work where i am right now, does it say if it will have the same style as fallout 3 and obivion?

[Yora]

And I will tell you bad things about NWN2 from firsthand experience.

I wouldn't get too thrilled about any info that mentions obsidian being involved with anything.

[Zincorium]

Frankly, I'm pretty excited about obsidian being part of it's developement- Bethesda has their own style and all, but obsidian is made up of people who actually made the first two games, and I think they can bring a lot to the table.

@nhbdy-

You heard bad things about Kotor 2 because the game got released before it was done. The last 30-45 minutes of the game were a terrible hackjob, but up to that point it's one of my all-time favorite games.

[Cristo Meyers]

Most of KoTOR 2's flaws can be traced more or less directly to the fact that it was horribly rushed for a Christmas release thanks to executive meddling.

That said, I think I'd be more excited to hear about more DLC for Fallout 3 right now than a whole new game.

[Mewtarthio]

I heard bad things about KOTOR 2, so knowing that company will be in charge worries me a bit. The link doesn't work where i am right now, does it say if it will have the same style as fallout 3 and obivion?

KotoR II was awesome. It's just that the ending is horribly tacked on because Obsidian was forced to rush it out on Christmas (a move which I particularly dislike, since I never buy a game as soon as its released).

[darkninjaoflight]

Umm...it's not Fallout 4. It's a game that goes alongside Fallout 3 and is in the same style as it. Fallout 4 will be much different.

[revolver kobold]

Well, with Fergus Urquhart as CEO, I shall remain cautiously optimistic about this game.

What's Tim Cain doing with himself these days? They should try to get him on board the project.

[Erloas]

What I find the most painfully ironic about this is that they don't want it to be Fallout 4, and instead name it Fallout: New Vegas because its not supposed to be a direct sequel to Fallout 3. In exactly the same way as Fallout 3 is in no way, shape, or form, a direct sequel to Fallout 1 and 2.

I'll wait until some real information is given. Considering that many of the original Fallout developers are working on it they could very well fix a lot of the things I think they did wrong with Fallout 3.

The interview I read said "its not going to be like Fallout Botherhood of Steel or Tactics", rather then saying its not going to be like Fallout 1, 2 or 3. Which might imply that it is going for a more of a squad based tactical combat design and a bit less of a focus on being an RPG.

[Zincorium]

The interview I read said "its not going to be like Fallout Botherhood of Steel or Tactics", rather then saying its not going to be like Fallout 1, 2 or 3. Which might imply that it is going for a more of a squad based tactical combat design and a bit less of a focus on being an RPG.

Er, what?

Saying that it's NOT a squad based tactical game means that it IS a tactical squad based game? You want them to say it won't be a true RPG so that it will be?

My brain hurts now.

But yeah, they've said they're focusing more on the classical RPG type stuff than the action/FPS flavor in fallout 3 from the stuff I've read, so this is unlikely to be like Tactics at all. Although I kind of liked Tactics, in a 'this is my retarded little brother' sort of way.

[Om]

Good to see a real RPG company get their hands on this franchise again. Now hopefully Obsidian can add some flesh to the, admittedly impressive, skeleton Bethesda have created

[DeathQuaker]

And I will tell you bad things about NWN2 from firsthand experience.

I wouldn't get too thrilled about any info that mentions obsidian being involved with anything.

I KNOW. Remember when Feargus Urquhart, Chris Jones, Chris Avellone, et al, made those two post-apocalyptic RPGs (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout-2/credits)? I mean, those SUCKED. Boy, I'm glad THAT franchise died, and that they'll never be able to do something like THAT again. Phew.

(Above comment made with possible traces of sarcasm, and meant purely in FUN. Please take it as such.)

In reality:


IMHO, of course, but based on what I've read, it looks like we're getting Bethesda's game engine with Obsidian's design and writing quality. As far as I can figure, that can only lead to wonderful, wonderful things.

[The Rose Dragon]

If it means we get back to SPECIAL as it is meant to be, and we get good writing to boot, I'm happy.

[Keris]

What I find the most painfully ironic about this is that they don't want it to be Fallout 4, and instead name it Fallout: New Vegas because its not supposed to be a direct sequel to Fallout 3. In exactly the same way as Fallout 3 is in no way, shape, or form, a direct sequel to Fallout 1 and 2.
It's called Fallout: New Vegas because it's not Fallout 4. It's going to be in the same style as Fallout 3, but have a different storyline.
So, while elements from Fallout 1 and 2 (like Harold) were seen in Fallout 3, we wont see them in Fallout: New Vegas, while in Fallout 4, we'll likely see how the events of Fallout 3 changed the wasteland.


The interview I read said "its not going to be like Fallout Botherhood of Steel or Tactics", rather then saying its not going to be like Fallout 1, 2 or 3. Which might imply that it is going for a more of a squad based tactical combat design and a bit less of a focus on being an RPG.
Pete Hines said "It's not Fallout Tactics, it's not Brotherhood of Steel; it's another RPG", which is probably what the interview you read was referencing.

[LoopyZebra]

I'm excited by the new setting. At the very least, apocalyptic Vegas will have some color.

... I just realized that most of the modern casinos wouldn't have been built in the Fallout Universe. :(

I'd really like a Fallout game that took place outside the US, though. I'm reasonably sure we're running out of iconic cities, unless we want to fight in a nuclear Alamo. (Assuming that a Fallout game has been done in NYC. But NYC is really overdone.)

Obsidian has done poorly with sequels, but not so poorly that I've lost confidence completely in them. KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 were atleast as enjoyable as the originals, although they each had major problems of their own.

[Erloas]

Er, what?

Saying that it's NOT a squad based tactical game means that it IS a tactical squad based game? You want them to say it won't be a true RPG so that it will be?

Well I don't have the interview right now, but the impression I got was that it wasn't going to be Fallout 4, but the way they said it was more along the lines of "its not going to be a sequel to Tactics or Brotherhood of Steel" rather then "its not going to be a sequel to Fallout 2 or 3." The "not being a sequel" part referring to a non continuous storyline or ties to the original game, and the second part being the type of game it is closest to.

Of course I'm hoping it goes back to the old school RPG format. Because that is really what I want from Fallout, and IMO the biggest issue with Fallout 3.

[Jibar]

Ah, this is what all this malarky is about. All I heard was Obsidian getting up for Bethesda about something.
An Obsidian built Fallout game would make me happy. Very happy indeed.
Of course, it would also make me happy if they helped Team Gizka finish so I can start delivering the right happy towards this project.

[Cúchulainn]

I'll look forward to this, Obsidian is a-ok in my book, but the serious lack of Elder Scrolls information makes me disappointed in Bethesda. Looks like they're going after the cash cow.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Most of KoTOR 2's flaws can be traced more or less directly to the fact that it was horribly rushed for a Christmas release thanks to executive meddling.

Forcing someone to keep to an already established release date is not meddling, it's trying to fulfil your contract. Just because Nintendo and Blizzard can push things back as often as they like doesn't mean Obsidian are blameless for making an unfinished game because they couldn't.

So Obsidian is making a sequel to someone else's game? I'd yawn if I wasn't aware of the historic details.


I'll look forward to this, Obsidian is a-ok in my book, but the serious lack of Elder Scrolls information makes me disappointed in Bethesda. Looks like they're going after the cash cow.

What? Elder Scrolls is a 100 times more of a cash cow than Fallout, a game whose original developers went bust.

[Cristo Meyers]

Forcing someone to keep to an already established release date is not meddling, it's trying to fulfil your contract. Just because Nintendo and Blizzard can push things back as often as they like doesn't mean Obsidian are blameless for making an unfinished game because they couldn't.

So Obsidian is making a sequel to someone else's game? I'd yawn if I wasn't aware of the historic details.



I was under the impression that the original date was further into the future until word came down that they had to make a Christmas release.

[Morty]

Can't say I'm particularily excited. If the writing is on KoToR 2's level but the game is actually finished, it might turn out okay. But I don't have much hope.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Forcing someone to keep to an already established release date is not meddling, it's trying to fulfil your contract. Just because Nintendo and Blizzard can push things back as often as they like doesn't mean Obsidian are blameless for making an unfinished game because they couldn't.

Perhaps, but refusing the producers of the game to actually release a patch that would have taken a short time of work (from the dev's declarations) to have much more end-content was stupid on their part. REputation of a game is a lot on the internet, and the game post-patch would have get a much better one.

[Cúchulainn]

What? Elder Scrolls is a 100 times more of a cash cow than Fallout, a game whose original developers went bust.

Fallout 3 mopped the floor with Oblivion and the Shivering Isles combined. Rumours of Elder Scrolls V have been out since before F3, and the fact that we're seeing the public announcement of F4 before ESV is even hinted at beyond speculation screams something to me.

Not to be a bastard here but I think Bethesda knows it can continue to squeeze money out of the Fallout franchise without putting any effort into it at all. Elder Scrolls will be a substantially harder won battle considering Oblivion made me throw up into my shoes and then hurl them at my computer screen.

[JMobius]

Perhaps, but refusing the producers of the game to actually release a patch that would have taken a short time of work (from the dev's declarations) to have much more end-content was stupid on their part. REputation of a game is a lot on the internet, and the game post-patch would have get a much better one.

But do we know the reason that Lucasarts denied the appeal to create a patch? It occurs to me that it might be because of difficulty in patching the XBox version; it is possible that legal agreements might obstruct them from allowing such fundamental differences between the two versions.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

All I can say is "What? Already?"

I personally think you should wait at LEAST a year or two before releasing a sequel of any kind. Give you time to assure things like, you know, QUALITY.

If it's a marriage of Bethesda's engine and Obsidian's writing though, as Death Quaker says, I welcome it with open arms. I bet even my little brother'd get interested in something like that. He's not much of a gamer, but he's obsessed with all things Las Vegas.

[Jibar]

Forcing someone to keep to an already established release date is not meddling, it's trying to fulfil your contract. Just because Nintendo and Blizzard can push things back as often as they like doesn't mean Obsidian are blameless for making an unfinished game because they couldn't.

You mean 12 months?
12 months with the only reason they got a game out there that worked being they already had an engine and models to work from?
With just a little more time, a couple months they could have ironed out lots of the bugs, but with proper time like 6 months they could have started bringing in finished content. That's when you get closer to what most games get for development.

[Om]

You mean 12 months?
12 months with the only reason they got a game out there that worked being they already had an engine and models to work from?
With just a little more time, a couple months they could have ironed out lots of the bugs, but with proper time like 6 months they could have started bringing in finished content. That's when you get closer to what most games get for development.While I'm sympathetic to Obsidian, the developers did know all this beforehand. Poor project management on Obsidian's part has to be blamed for much of the KotOR2 fiasco. On the plus side of course this was a game that (despite being unfinished) was a much better RPG experience than anything produced by Bethesda

On another note, I finally put down Fallout 3 the other week after realising how little there is to the game once you push past the exploration aspect. So this is a very welcome development. Bethesda created a good engine and now Obsidian can put it to good use

[Flickerdart]

What I'd like to see is a Fallout game taking place outside the US. There was that one Moscow mod in development by some guys, but I can't find it anymore.

I'd love to see a Fallout DLC set in Pripyat, just for kicks. Bonus points if it's actually still green, as the trees got immunized from the old radiation, or something.

[Jibar]

On another note, I finally put down Fallout 3 the other week after realising how little there is to the game once you push past the exploration aspect. So this is a very welcome development. Bethesda created a good engine and now Obsidian can put it to good use

This is something I can agree on easily.
Every now and then I'll reinstall Oblivion and realise that there's a big wide world with nothing in it with a modding community obsessed with turning everything anime.

[Tom_Violence]

I heard bad things about KOTOR 2, so knowing that company will be in charge worries me a bit.

Don't worry too much - just wait until you hear someone say some good things about the game, then it'll all even out.


And I will tell you bad things about NWN2 from firsthand experience.

I wouldn't get too thrilled about any info that mentions obsidian being involved with anything.

I would. NWN2 continued the tradition established by the original of having an incredibly mediocre story and a toolset filled to bursting point with promise and problems, but that improved dramatically with patches and expansions.


While I'm sympathetic to Obsidian, the developers did know all this beforehand. Poor project management on Obsidian's part has to be blamed for much of the KotOR2 fiasco. On the plus side of course this was a game that (despite being unfinished) was a much better RPG experience than anything produced by Bethesda.

Seconded, to an extent. Until someone releases the minutes of them meetings, ain't no one gonna know who knew what, who agreed to which, who called who thingy, etc etc. But if Lucasarts said to Obsidian "You've got 12 months to make this game", I'm glad they replied "Sure thing!" even if it was unreasonable. Hell, even if Lucasarts said "How long do you need?" and they gave a whacky answer I'm happy for it if it meant that they got the deal and it didn't go to someone else.

Which would you prefer? A KotOR2 that was made by Obsidian, took 12 months, and was a bit rough around the edges, or one made by Bethesda?

[Lord of Rapture]

Of course I'm hoping it goes back to the old school RPG format. Because that is really what I want from Fallout, and IMO the biggest issue with Fallout 3.

What do you mean by that?

If you mean "less skill books that make leveling your skills up much more worthless", "bring back traits", "better perks awarded less often", etc., then yeah, do it. I loved Fallout 3, but I do think Bethesda went waaaay too far apologizing for Oblivion and made Fallout 3 too easy.

If you mean "isometric view with turn based combat", :smallfurious:

OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

[warty goblin]

Thoughts.
1) Havn't played Fallout 3 yet, there wasn't time this semester.

2) Although I've heard many good things and it has mod support, so I plan to.

3) Also, I liked Oblivion quite a lot, anything more in that vein is good with me, even though I probably prefer the open countryside and general asthetic of Cyrodil to another nuked out city.

4) Hence this would, at first glance, indicate that more Fallout would be a good thing.

5) But Obsidian has never done anything to inspire confidence on my part. I didn't play KOTOR II, but if it's anything like KOTOR 1, that's not a particularly good thing. NWN2 is one of the most aggressively mediocre experiences I have yet to find on a disk. Saying 'they fixed it with expansions and mod tools' is sort of like getting your car from the dealer and being told that if you pay some extra money they'll put the engine in for you, but you've gotta hook the gas, break and oil lines yourself.

6) On the other hand at least this time Obsidian aren't making their own engine, because that turned out like a crap pancake with NWN 2, so there's some hope there.

7) Plus there's that new S.T.A.L.K.E.R. expansion coming up, and I've yet to play Clear Sky, which strongly indicates my nuclear wasteland survival fantasies will probably be filled for the forseable future.

8) Hence this is flagged as worth paying attention to, but doens't get 'buy on release day' status.

[Philistine]

Forcing someone to keep to an already established release date is not meddling, it's trying to fulfil your contract. Just because Nintendo and Blizzard can push things back as often as they like doesn't mean Obsidian are blameless for making an unfinished game because they couldn't.

I have my doubts about that. Up until November 2004, all the press materials for KotOR2 indicated a Spring 2005 release for both XBox and PC. Then the publicity machine went dark for a week or so, and when it switched back on they were shilling a Holiday 2004 release date for the XBox, and Q1 2005 for the PC. Funny thing: as LA was the publisher of the title, all of that publicity material was produced and/or approved by LA Marketing. Every single word of it. So, did LA advertise the wrong release date? Were they pushing said incorrect date for upwards of six months, without anyone ever noticing? I have my doubts.


While I'm sympathetic to Obsidian, the developers did know all this beforehand. Poor project management on Obsidian's part has to be blamed for much of the KotOR2 fiasco.

See above. While the OE team themselves have since acknowledged that their original plan was overly ambitious, examining the pre-release publicity materials makes it as clear as it can be* that LA pulled the rug out from under OE 3/4 of the way through the planned development cycle. To me, it looks like the major culprit was LA's desperate hunger for a quick fix of holiday cash.


* Unless/until the relevant NDAs expire, at least. Anyone who actually knows anything about the situation is legally bound not to comment.

[SurlySeraph]

Sounds good. Vegas wouldn't be my first choice of location (Florida or New York would be interesting, but NY is probably just a crater at this point), but it's more Fallout. It can't be bad.


What I'd like to see is a Fallout game taking place outside the US. There was that one Moscow mod in development by some guys, but I can't find it anymore.

I'd love to see a Fallout DLC set in Pripyat, just for kicks. Bonus points if it's actually still green, as the trees got immunized from the old radiation, or something.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl. OK, there are no radscorpions or deathclaws, and it doesn't use the SPECIAL system, and it really doesn't have that many RPG elements, but if you want post-apocalyptic mutant-fighting in Pripyat, it's the game to get.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I have my doubts about that. Up until November 2004, all the press materials for KotOR2 indicated a Spring 2005 release for both XBox and PC.

Fair enough, though this has become such a rediculous internet backdraft that I find it hard to believe anything about it.


You mean 12 months?
12 months with the only reason they got a game out there that worked being they already had an engine and models to work from?
With just a little more time, a couple months they could have ironed out lots of the bugs, but with proper time like 6 months they could have started bringing in finished content. That's when you get closer to what most games get for development.

Lucas Arts rediculously restrictive development time is probably responsible for why most of their games suck, but when you know you have a short development time and then deside to have three main villains and 2 needlessly restrictive tutorial planets I start to lose sympathy.

Lucas Arts is a fallen company that used to make great games but now appears to have no knowledge of what it realistically takes to make a playable game, but that has no affect on how I've yet to see any sign of competance on the part of Obsidian.

At least with Fallout they won't be able to make their usual sin of completely missing the point of the game they're making a sequel to.


I would. NWN2 continued the tradition established by the original of having an incredibly mediocre story and a toolset filled to bursting point with promise and problems, but that improved dramatically with patches and expansions.

I found NWN 2 to be completely unplayable and uninteresting.


Which would you prefer? A KotOR2 that was made by Obsidian, took 12 months, and was a bit rough around the edges, or one made by Bethesda?

A KotOR 2 that didn't have a nonsensical plot or turn a cool character into a Marty Stu. But honestly if they'd spent all the time they spent on Peragus on Malachor V there wouldn't really have been a problem.

[DeathQuaker]

Fallout 3 mopped the floor with Oblivion and the Shivering Isles combined. Rumours of Elder Scrolls V have been out since before F3, and the fact that we're seeing the public announcement of F4 before ESV is even hinted at beyond speculation screams something to me.

Despite the (incorrect) thread title, the interviews with Bethesda has made this clear that this is not fully "Fallout 4" (i.e., down the line, Bethesda is going to publish another game with that name). Just for the record.



Not to be a bastard here but I think Bethesda knows it can continue to squeeze money out of the Fallout franchise without putting any effort into it at all. Elder Scrolls will be a substantially harder won battle considering Oblivion made me throw up into my shoes and then hurl them at my computer screen.

See, actually, my interpretation of this whole situation is that--this is pure speculation, mind--Bethesda Softworks (the publisher) has hired Obsidian to make a Fallout game to keep the Fallout franchise in the mind of the public, so that in the meantime, they can have Bethesda Game Studios (the development house) fully work on the Elder Scrolls V.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Despite the (incorrect) thread title, the interviews with Bethesda has made this clear that this is not fully "Fallout 4" (i.e., down the line, Bethesda is going to publish another game with that name). Just for the record.


I know. It was simply to lure people into the thread :smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

I know. It was simply to lure people into the thread :smalltongue:

Fiendishly cunning.

Not as good as "Free Ice Cream" possibly, but a lot less likely to lead to breach of contract.

[Triaxx]

Not to mention breach of skull.

[Flickerdart]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl. OK, there are no radscorpions or deathclaws, and it doesn't use the SPECIAL system, and it really doesn't have that many RPG elements, but if you want post-apocalyptic mutant-fighting in Pripyat, it's the game to get.
No, no, no. Shadow of Chernobyl is based on serious artsy Sci-fi (Roadside Picnic and Stalker the 1979 movie). Fallout is campy 50s sci fi. There's a big difference. Doesn't make one better than the other, I love both, but still.

[DeathQuaker]

I know. It was simply to lure people into the thread :smalltongue:

Heh. :smallbiggrin: Clever.

For clarification, I was in part noting it in the context of, "No, Bethesda is not working on Fallout 4 over TES V." I somehow imagine what Beth will plan for the actual F4 will be even bigger.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Funny you should mention that. When I mentioned this on another board, a friend of mine essentially said this:

"Blah blah blah, when's the next Elder Scrolls game coming?"

[JadedDM]

Did someone mention free ice cream?!

Oh. Well, anyway, I have high hopes for this new Fallout game. The worst part of Fallout 3 was the terrible writing, so hopefully the folks who worked on the original two games, now at Obsidian, can show Bethesda how it is done.

[Lord of Rapture]

Did someone mention free ice cream?!

Oh. Well, anyway, I have high hopes for this new Fallout game. The worst part of Fallout 3 was the terrible writing, so hopefully the folks who worked on the original two games, now at Obsidian, can show Bethesda how it is done.

Meh, I thought the writing was okay. But then again, it's nothing new, mediocre storylines are a proud tradition of the Fallout series that Fallout 3 proudly carries the flame of.

Gameplay is rock solid, though.

[warty goblin]

Funny you should mention that. When I mentioned this on another board, a friend of mine essentially said this:

"Blah blah blah, when's the next Elder Scrolls game coming?"

Amen to that. The next Elder Scrolls I'll pick up as soon as practical, no question about it.

[Lord of Rapture]

Amen to that. The next Elder Scrolls I'll pick up as soon as practical, no question about it.

I dunno, Oblivion really turned me away from the Elder Scrolls franchise...

[Cúchulainn]

I dunno, Oblivion really turned me away from the Elder Scrolls franchise...

Well I won't have any faith in the gameplay, but the ES world will still draw me in for the buy. Sure Oblivion was completely not-to-scale, but the lore was still pretty cool.

[revolver kobold]

Did someone mention free ice cream?!

Oh. Well, anyway, I have high hopes for this new Fallout game. The worst part of Fallout 3 was the terrible writing, so hopefully the folks who worked on the original two games, now at Obsidian, can show Bethesda how it is done.

The writing was more inconsistent than anything else. I found some parts of it to be golden, where as other parts hard me nerd-raging almost as bad as NMA.

Unfortunately, the further along the main quest you went, it seemed the worse the writing got.

[warty goblin]

I dunno, Oblivion really turned me away from the Elder Scrolls franchise...

Huh. I personally loved Oblivion, and would say I played well north of a hundred hours. I still think about starting it back up again at some point if I had the time. It was a roleplaying game that actually gave me space to roleplay. Sure the interactions with most of the NPCs were rather shallow, but so what? I could still buy a house, do this, that, the other thing, or become wealthy creating and selling potions. There is a sense, I think, that when a game becomes large enough what one gets out of it is precisely what one puts into it, and has very little to do with that the game offers. I didn't go in expecting great characters or story, but instead an opportunity to wander around and get lost in another world, and that's what I did. Shivering Isles was really excellent in this regard as well, my only regret is that the island wasn't bigger.

[Dixieboy]

I heard bad things about KOTOR 2, so knowing that company will be in charge worries me a bit.
OHNOYOUDIDNOTJUSTSAYTHAT?!

So it's okay it's done by Bethesda but not by Obsidian?
Kotor 2 suffered from bugs, and from a horrible ending.

But try playing the game, and if you aren't going to Biowares webpage to send a couple of email regarding the lack of a Kotor 3 (possibly take a swing by obsidian) you are not worthy to play RPG's.
Simple as that
[/nerdrage]

[Lord of Rapture]

Huh. I personally loved Oblivion, and would say I played well north of a hundred hours. I still think about starting it back up again at some point if I had the time. It was a roleplaying game that actually gave me space to roleplay. Sure the interactions with most of the NPCs were rather shallow, but so what? I could still buy a house, do this, that, the other thing, or become wealthy creating and selling potions. There is a sense, I think, that when a game becomes large enough what one gets out of it is precisely what one puts into it, and has very little to do with that the game offers. I didn't go in expecting great characters or story, but instead an opportunity to wander around and get lost in another world, and that's what I did. Shivering Isles was really excellent in this regard as well, my only regret is that the island wasn't bigger.

The problem was that no matter how much I wanted to get into the world, the frustrating poor game design choices (enemies leveling up at the exact same rate as you? Seriously?) and convulted gameplay (a minigame for speech? What were they thinking?) made it impossible for me to get in. Oblivion was like a candy store run by bigots who wouldn't let the poor little orphan boy get inside, letting him stand outside in the cold, tormenting him with all the chocolates and lollipops inside, knowing that he'd never be able to get it, and start crying.


Well I won't have any faith in the gameplay, but the ES world will still draw me in for the buy. Sure Oblivion was completely not-to-scale, but the lore was still pretty cool.

I see we are of different minds about the series, because the plot and lore smelled suspiciously of Tolkien and Lovecraft blatantly ripped off and sewn together hastily, creating an abombination too awful to look at.

Okay, so it was overblown, but still, the plot of Oblivion was the second weakest part of the game to me (the first part being the gameplay, of course.)

[SolkaTruesilver]

The problem was that no matter how much I wanted to get into the world, the frustrating poor game design choices (enemies leveling up at the exact same rate as you? Seriously?) and convulted gameplay (a minigame for speech? What were they thinking?) made it impossible for me to get in. Oblivion was like a candy store run by bigots who wouldn't let the poor little orphan boy get inside, letting him stand outside in the cold, tormenting him with all the chocolates and lollipops inside, knowing that he'd never be able to get it, and start crying.




What you need is a mod :smallbiggrin:

[Lord of Rapture]

What you need is a mod :smallbiggrin:

But I played it for Xbox 360.:smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

But I played it for Xbox 360.:smallwink:

Ah! And now, thou reap what thou plowed! Thou has strayed away from the PC, and thou are justly punished!

But it is not too late! Repent! Cast away thou X-Box, and come back into the fold of Modders and Self-made content community!

[Lord of Rapture]

Ah! And now, thou reap what thou plowed! Thou has strayed away from the PC, and thou are justly punished!

But it is not too late! Repent! Cast away thou X-Box, and come back into the fold of Modders and Self-made content community!

PC heretic sighted! Prepare my holy shotgun and missile launcher! Blood for the Blood ring!

[Comet]

No, no, no. Shadow of Chernobyl is based on serious artsy Sci-fi (Roadside Picnic and Stalker the 1979 movie). Fallout is campy 50s sci fi. There's a big difference. Doesn't make one better than the other, I love both, but still.
Roadside Picninc is not artsy. I find it quite light reading and fun, unlike the film.

Anyway.
I'm really optimistic about this, mainly because of Obsidians high quality writers. Wasn't Mask of the Betrayer also written by them? The story in MotB was almost as good as Planescape: Torment and that's saying a lot.
Obsidian does good fantasy. If they can polish the game, the next Fallout is going to be awesome. I think.

[Triaxx]

Excuse me, you want to mess the PC? Well, the avenger has a few words for you.

'It's a-me. Mario.' *pipe wrench clangs*

[warty goblin]

The problem was that no matter how much I wanted to get into the world, the frustrating poor game design choices (enemies leveling up at the exact same rate as you? Seriously?) and convulted gameplay (a minigame for speech? What were they thinking?) made it impossible for me to get in. Oblivion was like a candy store run by bigots who wouldn't let the poor little orphan boy get inside, letting him stand outside in the cold, tormenting him with all the chocolates and lollipops inside, knowing that he'd never be able to get it, and start crying.

What was so bad about the leveling enemies? I've honestly never understood this complaint. It's not like you didn't feel more powerful at the end of the game than the beginning, what with being able to disarm people, paralyze them, knock them over, run on water and so on. Looking at it another way, if the enemies didn't level, by the time you hit around level ten, you would be essentially a god. Nor is it the case that non open-world RPGs don't level enemies with you as well, they just put harder ones farther away from the starting point. It's just as fake really. Oblivion, being open world, simply didn't have that luxery.

As for the conversation minigame, I thought that was really one of Oblivion's better ideas, since it makes the act of pursuading people much more active. Mass Effect for example, much as I love it, is an entirely passive game in conversation. The minigame in Oblivion might be boring and simplistic, but at least it's more involved than clicking text being the only means of interaction.

[SurlySeraph]

What was so bad about the leveling enemies? I've honestly never understood this complaint. It's not like you didn't feel more powerful at the end of the game than the beginning, what with being able to disarm people, paralyze them, knock them over, run on water and so on. Looking at it another way, if the enemies didn't level, by the time you hit around level ten, you would be essentially a god. Nor is it the case that non open-world RPGs don't level enemies with you as well, they just put harder ones farther away from the starting point. It's just as fake really. Oblivion, being open world, simply didn't have that luxery.

I loved Oblivion, and I hated the leveling enemies. The problem is that unless you had a fairly optimized build, the enemies became more powerful than you every time you leveled. You'd have a couple of levels without enemies improving, so you'd get to the point that you could actually stand up to them in combat without using cheap tactics (hit it with a poisoned arrow and run away, circle-strafe with fireballs, etc.) And then the enemies would improve again, and beat you down again. It felt like you were getting weaker every time you leveled because, relative to the enemies, you were. It was fine after level 20 or so when the enemies stopped improving, because at that point when you leveled you got stronger relative to the enemies. But before that, the rate of enemy improvement was too high.

[Morty]

Huh. I personally loved Oblivion, and would say I played well north of a hundred hours. I still think about starting it back up again at some point if I had the time. It was a roleplaying game that actually gave me space to roleplay. Sure the interactions with most of the NPCs were rather shallow, but so what? I could still buy a house, do this, that, the other thing, or become wealthy creating and selling potions. There is a sense, I think, that when a game becomes large enough what one gets out of it is precisely what one puts into it, and has very little to do with that the game offers. I didn't go in expecting great characters or story, but instead an opportunity to wander around and get lost in another world, and that's what I did. Shivering Isles was really excellent in this regard as well, my only regret is that the island wasn't bigger.

The problem a lot of people have is that nothing you do in Oblivion actually matters. You can wander around and look at pretty landscapes - wondering all the while why the hell is there a Tolkienesque fantasy land where a jungle should be - but you can't do anything. Your character is just a puppet with a sword or spells.

[warty goblin]

I loved Oblivion, and I hated the leveling enemies. The problem is that unless you had a fairly optimized build, the enemies became more powerful than you every time you leveled. You'd have a couple of levels without enemies improving, so you'd get to the point that you could actually stand up to them in combat without using cheap tactics (hit it with a poisoned arrow and run away, circle-strafe with fireballs, etc.) And then the enemies would improve again, and beat you down again. It felt like you were getting weaker every time you leveled because, relative to the enemies, you were. It was fine after level 20 or so when the enemies stopped improving, because at that point when you leveled you got stronger relative to the enemies. But before that, the rate of enemy improvement was too high.

I really don't see how this is all that different from an ordinary RPG though. I mean if you screw up your build in Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic, aren't you also in serious trouble later in the game? That optimizing a character in Oblivion was crazy ass backwards and unintuitive, I'll agree with, but I don't see how getting owned by enemies when using a non-optimized build is a complaint in any way unique to Oblivion

Granted, I never got a character above, IIRC, level 12 or 13, and played a reasonably melee focused character, but there were relatively few fights I had major trouble with. My stealth based characters always struggled at the beginning due to poor skills and crap equipment, but overall I found the difficulty to plateau fairly nicely.

[Lord of Rapture]

I really don't see how this is all that different from an ordinary RPG though. I mean if you screw up your build in Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic, aren't you also in serious trouble later in the game? That optimizing a character in Oblivion was crazy ass backwards and unintuitive, I'll agree with, but I don't see how getting owned by enemies when using a non-optimized build is a complaint in any way unique to Oblivion

Granted, I never got a character above, IIRC, level 12 or 13, and played a reasonably melee focused character, but there were relatively few fights I had major trouble with. My stealth based characters always struggled at the beginning due to poor skills and crap equipment, but overall I found the difficulty to plateau fairly nicely.

I guess you never heard of the level 20 warrior who went through hell and back being defeated by a pig in the wilderness.

It happened to my friend. He loved the game till that happened. Then he switched sides and agreed with me.

The problem is that with enemies that level the same rate as you, there's no reason to level at all. A fireball at level one has the same effect on an enemy as level two. As such, I felt even weaker at level 5 than I did at level one. An imp that I could easily kill a level ago now became a boss fight that kept killing me over and over again.

[DeathQuaker]

Um.... not to rain on the parade, but maybe you should be talking about Oblivion in an Oblivion thread? Just sayin'... I've seen mods lock stuff for going off topic... I don't always agree with that principle, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

And it'd be nice to leave the thread open for, you know, people who want to talk about the new Fallout. :smallsmile:

[Philistine]

In the KotOR games, at least, the difficulty level was so low that it was nearly impossible to "screw up your build" badly enough to make the game unbeatable. I mean, maybe if you deliberately worked at creating something unplayable you could pull it off, but by and large there just wasn't that much scope to make mistakes. NWN was a bit more difficult, and certainly offered players more opportunities to fail; but still, you'd more likely than not end up with something playable (enough so to complete the OC, anyway).

There are a number of things I'm not crazy about in the Elder Scrolls series, but the bizarre skill/levelling system is certainly high on the list. And the worst part is not even that it's deliberately arcane (though that's not a positive in my eyes); it's that after enough levels, every character ends up just like every other character: maxed-out in all skills.

[Lord of the Helms]

I really don't see how this is all that different from an ordinary RPG though. I mean if you screw up your build in Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic, aren't you also in serious trouble later in the game?

A little food for though - I completed the first Neverwinter Nights, knowing next to nothing about D&D rules, with a sorcerer 19/rogue 1 whose Modus Operandi was buffing herself a little and and dual-wielding daggers while casting random blasts whose effects I did not even properly understand (such as the craptacular Ice Storm, and flinging Fireballs at high levels). It wasn't very difficult. In NWN 2, you could have the game do decent auto-levelling, and if even that failed, you'd still have 3 (later 4, in the endgame 8-10 or so) capable companions who could help you with whupping butt. You'd really have to intentionally screw up your builds to really suck ass completely (on which I do remember a very funny thread in the NWN forums, where the goal was to create the weakest possible 40th level character, with a 3 class limit to work with - so they had to work really hard to waste as many feats as possible, get levels in a spellcasting class for which you did not have the prerequisite attribute to cast spells, have a STR 6 Halfling wield a whip (1-2 -2 Damage) etc).

On the development: In principle, since I throughly enjoyed the Obsidian works I've played (NWN plus expansions, never gave KOTOR a shot), this sounds like good stuff. If they can make the character interaction as good as they are known for, it can be great, and while the story to NWN wasn't terribly revolutionary, it was at least sufficiently layered and well-executed (I remember, towards the endgame, looking back and thinking "Wow, this game started with me battling Githiyanki and street thugs, now I'm past the various Luskan conspirators and ominous mage and only starting to face the actual threat"), plus thoroughly solid gameplay-wise (the castle minigame was dangerously adictive to my inner construction-RTS type guy). And Mask of the Betrayer was wonderfully Planescape Torment-esque in storyline quality, characterisation and gameplay options, except with more (but better) fighting, and only really annoyed me in that they offered four companions to begin with, and I could only have three at the same time, when it would have been very nice and practical to just allow for keeping all of them with you.

[Aotrs Commander]

I shall be uncharacteristically optimistic. Between ex-Black Isle, Bethsada, Obsidian and Bioware, my absolute favourite RPGs have been produced. Combing some of them will hopefully work out well.

I liked Morrowind, Oblivion slightly less so. (Personally, I ended up cranking the difficulty right down, because I was fed up with every goblin being a fight to the death. Plus, the crafting systems was too nerfed, I felt.)

I loved KotR one and two, flaws aside (even that great paragon of RPG, Torment, was not without it's flaws.) In fact, those three stand up as some of my favourite games of all time, nevermind RPGs; alongside such hallowed company as TIE Fighter, Civ (II-4) and Dungeon Keeper 1.

I liked NWN 2 (NWN not so much, though it was merely bland, not bad); though I find Mask of the Betrayer less fun simply because I feel I have rush through it and that kills a lot of my fun. At points, chasing through the game so as not to die from spirit hungar started to feel more like work) though the story and characters were good.

I enjoyed Fallout 3 (not having the comparison to the earlier games to judge it against) so I am reasonably happy to have a look at what Obsidian can do with the engine. (I can't say as I've ever finished a Bethasada game though; I'm too bloody completionist (thank you, ingrained JRPG habits!)) I'm just a bit tweaked though, that the Fallout 3 expansions are on Windows Live only, since I'm not a big fan of that (my impression has always been you have pay a subscrition fee or something, though I could be wrong, of course.)

(Heck, I'm pumped about Bioware's Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, since Jade Empire and Mass Effect were so absolutely superlative, even if a bit more action-based that I'm used to.)

I just hope to heck that whenever these games come out, if they insist in using a DRM, they use something sane (and certainly not Steam; I've heard nothing but bad things about that. Flat-out out me off buying Dawn of War 2, period.) Stardock is a head above the rest in that field at least (fortunately someone is!)

[Erloas]

I enjoyed Fallout 3 (not having the comparison to the earlier games to judge it against) so I am reasonably happy to have a look at what Obsidian can do with the engine. (I can't say as I've ever finished a Bethasada game though; I'm too bloody completionist (thank you, ingrained JRPG habits!)) I'm just a bit tweaked though, that the Fallout 3 expansions are on Windows Live only, since I'm not a big fan of that (my impression has always been you have pay a subscrition fee or something, though I could be wrong, of course.)

(Heck, I'm pumped about Bioware's Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, since Jade Empire and Mass Effect were so absolutely superlative, even if a bit more action-based that I'm used to.)

I just hope to heck that whenever these games come out, if they insist in using a DRM, they use something sane (and certainly not Steam; I've heard nothing but bad things about that. Flat-out out me off buying Dawn of War 2, period.) Stardock is a head above the rest in that field at least (fortunately someone is!)

Well after I looked at it, I've only played a few Bethesda games, and all of the ones I have played I haven't liked, some were really bad too. That said, I haven't tried Fallout 3 yet, since I don't like the fact that they changed 90% of what the original games were and then decided to call it Fallout 3 instead of Fallout "SomethingElse" and that overall I haven't been that impressed with the Bethesda RPGs I have played. I figure I'll pick it up when it hits a sale for $20-25 though.

As for Games for Windows Live, as far as I know for the PC everything (that the service entails) is free. For the XBox they have a silver (free) and gold (fee) levels, but I don't really know how they differ. Most actual goods, like expansions, are available to both but most expansions cost something to get them for either service level. I know you can buy some of the expansions for Fallout 3 via places like Amazon.com so they can't just be through GfWL.

As for Steam, I've had no problems at all with Steam. I do know some (not sure on all) require Steam to be logged in to play, but there are some options to making a game playable offline, I just don't know what that entails. I've had no problems at all installing the games I have through Steam on both my desktop and my laptop, its just that you can only have Steam logged in on one of them at a time and play the games. Of course most of the Steam games I've played have been Valve games as well, so I don't know how many more issues there are with Steam and 3rd party games through it. I didn't have issues getting DoW1 through Steam and playing it, but I didn't play it a lot either. Steam also didn't have any issues when I upgraded my laptop from Vista to Win7 RC, and the games seem to allow multiple installs without issue. I could see where it would be a problem if you don't always have net access to log into Steam though. I know someone was complaining about it removing resale value of games, but I don't know any game shops that carry used PC games any more anyway, and cracks and piracy pretty much remove the resale market as well. (since the resale market is for people that want to try the games for cheap, and pretty much fits all the same reasons people pirate)


As for Fallout 4, or Fallout "Something else" since they ironically aren't letting Obsidian call it Fallout 4, I'll have to see what they are planning on doing with the game before I know if I'm going to look at it.

[Aotrs Commander]

As for Games for Windows Live, as far as I know for the PC everything (that the service entails) is free. For the XBox they have a silver (free) and gold (fee) levels, but I don't really know how they differ. Most actual goods, like expansions, are available to both but most expansions cost something to get them for either service level. I know you can buy some of the expansions for Fallout 3 via places like Amazon.com so they can't just be through GfWL.

Thanks for the info. Have to have a nosey around then. (Since I know that Fallout 3's chief failings were it's far-too-low level cap and lousy ending and the expansions sort of addressed them.)

My problem with DoW2 is particular, was the fact you had to still download stuff from Steam when you bought the retail version. Plus the number of people who couldn't play it when they wanted because it wouldn't let them until it spent several hours updating was despressing. But anyway, DRM ranting is not really the issue here, so I'll stop derailing! (Save to say Bioware have seen the light on it at least, and Dragon Age won't have any SecuROM or online registration, only a good, old-fashioned simple disk-check. Thank you Bioware!)

[mangosta71]

RE Elder Scrolls: Yeah, the fact that my various Oblivion characters were more distinctive from each other at level 1 than level 20 really bothered me, too.

As far as a new Fallout game, I'm kind of amused that they're going back to the same region that encompassed 1 and 2. I sincerely hope that they put more of the dark humor from the first two into the future games than went into 3.

[DamnedIrishman]

In related news, it has emerged that Bethesda filed Fallout trademark applications back in February for "entertainment services in the nature of an on-going television program" and for "motion picture films about a post-nuclear apocalyptic world".

Please never make a Fallout TV series or movie. Unless the main character is Harold.

[warty goblin]

I guess you never heard of the level 20 warrior who went through hell and back being defeated by a pig in the wilderness.

It happened to my friend. He loved the game till that happened. Then he switched sides and agreed with me.

The problem is that with enemies that level the same rate as you, there's no reason to level at all. A fireball at level one has the same effect on an enemy as level two. As such, I felt even weaker at level 5 than I did at level one. An imp that I could easily kill a level ago now became a boss fight that kept killing me over and over again.

Personally I like the bit where, even when I'm all twinked out with good equipment and stats, basic feeling enemies can still take me down hard. I'm the kinda guy who considers it a selling point of a game if, like S.T.A.L.K.E.R., you can have insane stats, good armor, and one of the best weapons in the game, but still get owned when you screw up and let the bandit in the leather jacket with the double barrel shotty give you both loads to the face. I've had this happen too, and honestly think it a stronger game for that. Thus having difficult fights in Oblivion doesn't bother me, since they are hellova lot more interesting than non-difficult fights.

Secondly, how are enemies leveling with you any different than a traditional RPG? I only played about a third to a half of NWN 2, but I definitely wasn't fighting the same things at level 11 than I was at level 2, although some of them certainly looked the same. The only difference I see is that NWN 2, by tying the game to a linear progression, could change enemies by world region, but let's be honest here people, this makes about as much sense as the rats getting tougher along with you.


Now I'll certainly agree that Oblivion's leveling system was crazy-ass stupid in a lot of ways*, but with a very little planning (and I mean very little, as in "don't take blunt and blade, level hand to hand to gain Strength points" I never had any trouble keeping up with the monsters. Did it make certain builds inviable? Of course, but any system where decisions have consequences will do that.

*Personally I think it would have made more sense to give you something like 10 - 15 Attribute points every level that you could distribute at will.

[Lord of Rapture]

Personally I like the bit where, even when I'm all twinked out with good equipment and stats, basic feeling enemies can still take me down hard. I'm the kinda guy who considers it a selling point of a game if, like S.T.A.L.K.E.R., you can have insane stats, good armor, and one of the best weapons in the game, but still get owned when you screw up and let the bandit in the leather jacket with the double barrel shotty give you both loads to the face. I've had this happen too, and honestly think it a stronger game for that. Thus having difficult fights in Oblivion doesn't bother me, since they are hellova lot more interesting than non-difficult fights.

Secondly, how are enemies leveling with you any different than a traditional RPG? I only played about a third to a half of NWN 2, but I definitely wasn't fighting the same things at level 11 than I was at level 2, although some of them certainly looked the same. The only difference I see is that NWN 2, by tying the game to a linear progression, could change enemies by world region, but let's be honest here people, this makes about as much sense as the rats getting tougher along with you.


Now I'll certainly agree that Oblivion's leveling system was crazy-ass stupid in a lot of ways*, but with a very little planning (and I mean very little, as in "don't take blunt and blade, level hand to hand to gain Strength points" I never had any trouble keeping up with the monsters. Did it make certain builds inviable? Of course, but any system where decisions have consequences will do that.

*Personally I think it would have made more sense to give you something like 10 - 15 Attribute points every level that you could distribute at will.

How the hell did you survive past level 5? I beg of you, please tell me? Somehow all the weak little imps I used to laugh at ride roughshod over all suddenly became death machines that were impossible to kill!

The problem is that the enemies were actually growing stronger than I was. The exact same enemies I used to p*** over before. It was actually easier for me to not get killed at level 1 than at level 5 for the exact same enemies. That stupid bandit that I swatted aside like a fly when I popped out of the dungeon? Now a boss fight.

All I can say is that you won't like Fallout 3 then. What I loved about Fallout 3 that even before I hit level 20, I was a superhuman killing machine for which even Deathclaws and Enclave soldiers were a joke. If you like being challenged the whole way through, Fallout 3 is not for you.

[Cúchulainn]

Try protecting the Emperor at upper-teens levels when you have to go into the Oblivion gate and stop the war machine. Freakin' impossible, and I mean impossible, I had to give up. He'd go down in like 2 hits and the enemies flooding from the gate took around 10 hits. I enjoy a challenge but whoever wrote that leveling script should be fired, and then handed over to the Gamers embassy for war crimes.

[Levyathyn]

This is relevant to my interests.

Fallout 3 I handled like a pro. I shied a bit away from the main story, and mostly just ran amok doing as I pleased. It works better, IMO, than in Oblivion. And, I hate to call you on it, warty goblin, but I have to. I never died to wek imps and stuff ~ level 5 like some people, but these aren't exaggerations. There is no middle ground for Oblivion. Either there's seven bandits in a cave, all with Daedric armor and weapons, all above lvel 20 that you own with three swings (or spells) each or a single, I repeat single mountain lion that owns you in the wild. Challenging the very princes of Hell to five on one combat in giant, fiery towers of stone is NOTHING compared to the wildlife of Cyrodiil. A friend of mine had a glitch in his game where the only animal he ever encountered were wild boars. He mercilessly died hundreds of times without going up a single level (at level 7) before giving in. He made it through on a second game, where the wildlife was a little more diverse, and managed to beat the game, so good show there. On top of that, Oblivion has very limited weapons and armor, so that glass and daedric are on top. Essentially, you choose a light or heavy armor build, and at level 20+ every character looks the same, either wearing glass or daedric. Ridiculous. And don't get me started on how much money I have in Oblivion. And as for /\ Cuhulainn's point, I had to stop at that part. Over level 30, the enemies were so ridiculously hard they one hitted the Emp, and I couldn't take down all of them.

I have also had a ridiculous amount of trouble with Steam. I couldn't download or play HL2, any game in the Orange Box, or even the re-relese of HL1. To date, nothing I have ever done with Steam has worked. Ever.

Finally, I breach the subject of Fallout. I enjoyed exploration, and adding the bobbleheads was a nice touch, but the game is too easy and a little limited for my tastes. I enjoy the lack of turn-based combat, and the VATS system is fun, but the difficult gun aiming makes VATS an essential tool that you pretty much have to use sometimes, which makes it way too easy. The only exception are the Deathclaws, and a little tiny bit of planning makes them look like unarmed seven year old girls in combat. For New Vegas, I would appreciate a slightly more branching storyline with a little more personal freedom. What's the point of doing anything if nothing you do matters? That said, I like the Capital Wasteland quite a bit; The characters and writing were relatively good. Maybe not up to my standards, but it made for enjoyable fare. Again, I would have preferred more difficulty in combat and in making money.

On a related note, I do look forward to Mass Effect 2.

Getting Windows Live is a minor download that costs nothing and requires no fee; Buying games and expansions with it is easy and you can do it in store or online. Patches over WL are, to my quite extensive knowledge, free. I m a religious XBox 360 user, AS WELL AS PC, and I've never had a mistaken charge except a single one from Blizzard.