Elan's Potential

[JMM]

If the flashback that portrays Nale delivering blows which damaged the infant Elan's brain is to be taken seriously, would not a heal spell restore him to his proper level of intelligence? After all, such would, if I'm not mistaken, be ability damage.

[Omegonthesane]

If the flashback that portrays Nale delivering blows which damaged the infant Elan's brain is to be taken seriously, would not a heal spell restore him to his proper level of intelligence? After all, such would, if I'm not mistaken, be ability damage.

Pretty long-lasting to have stuck around this long, but it was during childhood.

My guess is yes, if Elan was hit by a Heal spell he'd regain any intelligence lost when Nale bashed him... which wouldn't necessarily improve him more than becoming a Dashing Swordsman already has. After all, as V pointed out in Haley's break-the-speech-problem story arc, Nale's plans are for the most part stock evil plans with minimal modification, and a truly intelligent person would be able to cut a Sending down to 25 words when it counted. Probably.

At least, I think V wouldn't sacrifice a second spell-slot of Sending to get technical about vocabulary.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd class it as Int drain which Lesser Restoration(s) would be able to counter due to its duration. (I think both Nale and Elan suffer from a lack of Wis, but Nale at least appears to have a clue half the time.)

[JMM]

Pretty long-lasting to have stuck around this long, but it was during childhood.

Brain damage would be permanent unless miraculously healed, I'd wager.

On the other hand, is it likely he's never needed a heal spell in his long adventuring career?


Nale's plans are for the most part stock evil plans with minimal modification...

They're "stock" if they fail, and "proven" if they succeed. :smallwink:

[Mannryu]

But do we really want for Elan to change his good old self with a sudden intelligence raise?

[JMM]

Are you assuming that an increase in intelligence would adversely affect Elan's innate goodness, or is "good old self" a reference to his happy-go-lucky persona?

[An application of Owl's Wisdom had Belkar renouncing evil, interestingly enough.]

[Dagren]

Of course, is it likely he's never needed a heal spell in his long adventuring career?Depends. Heal is a fairly high level spell, I don't think we know for sure Durkon can even cast it.

[Mannryu]

Are you assuming that an increase in intelligence would adversely affect Elan's innate goodness, or is "good old self" a reference to his happy-go-lucky persona?

[An application of Owl's Wisdom had Belkar renouncing evil, interestingly enough.]

I was aiming for his "happy-go-lucky persona" as you named it. His goodness would stay same but I am sure his childish and carefree personality would change.

[sun_tzu]

I was aiming for his "happy-go-lucky persona" as you named it. His goodness would stay same but I am sure his childish and carefree personality would change.

It might. Or it might not. I submit for your examination, Richard Feynman and Nikola Tesla.:smallbiggrin:

[Robert Paulson]

I doubt the episode with Nale was meant to have occurred after Elan's character sheet was created. It is likely backstory, used to explain Elan's base character attributes.

[Omegonthesane]

I was aiming for his "happy-go-lucky persona" as you named it. His goodness would stay same but I am sure his childish and carefree personality would change.

Not necessarily by a lot. Having a clue isn't mutually exclusive with his persona (well, apart from the "Look at me! I'm naked so I'm invisible!" incident...), it would just give him that push he needs to actually pull his own weight in the party. Pity he's already had character development to that effect and won't need more.


I doubt the episode with Nale was meant to have occurred after Elan's character sheet was created. It is likely backstory, used to explain Elan's base character attributes.

This is a world where people are actually governed by the rules, and ABD was able to attack V's kids so they must at least have had a statline.

[JMM]

I doubt the episode with Nale was meant to have occurred after Elan's character sheet was created. It is likely backstory, used to explain Elan's base character attributes.

I imagine you're correct, and that it was just a throwaway panel played for laughs. Still, it is a good end around that.


This is a world where people are actually governed by the rules ...

I'm curious: By what "rule" is Belkar able to whip out a lead shield larger than he is at will? :smallwink:

[feltex]

I'm curious: By what "rule" is Belkar able to whip out a lead shield larger than he is at will? :smallwink:
The rule of cool. :smallcool:

[Mannryu]

Not necessarily by a lot. Having a clue isn't mutually exclusive with his persona (well, apart from the "Look at me! I'm naked so I'm invisible!" incident...), it would just give him that push he needs to actually pull his own weight in the party. Pity he's already had character development to that effect and won't need more.


But that is the best part of his persona, isn't it? :smallbiggrin:

[NerfTW]

Suddenly healing his brain wouldn't do anything. The neural pathways and education wouldn't instantly be dumped into his head. He'd still be just as naive and stupid, just with the capacity to learn more and improve. Not only that, but since his personality and ways of thinking are already set at this age, altering his core personality would take a very long time.

Naivety isn't based on your intelligence, it's based on your experience. If he hasn't retained any of the life experience he should have, he'll still be naive.

[David Argall]

Heal is 6th level, and easily cast by Durkon. However, I'd think I'd classify any childhood brain injury to be permanent by now, and thus beyond the spell's ability to cure. Now a Greater Restoration, 7th level and also castable by Durkon, looks like it might work.

[Aaron]

Depends. Heal is a fairly high level spell, I don't think we know for sure Durkon can even cast it.

Yes, Durkon can cast Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).:smallbiggrin:

[JMM]

Suddenly healing his brain wouldn't do anything. The neural pathways and education wouldn't instantly be dumped into his head. He'd still be just as naive and stupid, just with the capacity to learn more and improve.

Heh.

"Hey! You got your sorcery in my science!"
"Well, you got your science in my sorcery!"


Not only that, but since his personality and ways of thinking are already set at this age, altering his core personality would take a very long time.

Perhaps not in the OotS universe. After all, Owl's Wisdom radically altered Belkar's personality instantaneously.


If he hasn't retained any of the life experience he should have, he'll still be naive.

I would imagine he's retained it all, but hasn't processed it in the fashion he would have were his brain optimally functional.

[JMM]

However, I'd think I'd classify any childhood brain injury to be permanent by now, and thus beyond the spell's ability to cure. Now a Greater Restoration, 7th level and also castable by Durkon, looks like it might work.

That's certainly a valid, lucid take, but so is saying that Heal itself would work.

[JMM]

The rule of cool. :smallcool:

I can't counter that one. :smallsmile:

[Waspinator]

Or Belkar has a handy haversack and a very loose interpretation of what can fit through the opening in it.

[BobVosh]

I can't counter that one. :smallsmile:

Easy to counter. Rule of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny), not Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).

[JMM]

Easy to counter. Rule of Funny, not Rule of Cool.

Nosiree, Bob. :smallamused:

That would be an alternative explanation, not a counter.

[MuLepton]

But do we really want for Elan to change his good old self with a sudden intelligence raise?
Why did I have to think of HOMR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOMR) all of a sudden?

[Volkov]

Suddenly healing his brain wouldn't do anything. The neural pathways and education wouldn't instantly be dumped into his head. He'd still be just as naive and stupid, just with the capacity to learn more and improve. Not only that, but since his personality and ways of thinking are already set at this age, altering his core personality would take a very long time.

Naivety isn't based on your intelligence, it's based on your experience. If he hasn't retained any of the life experience he should have, he'll still be naive.
You are making the time honored mistake of confusing Intelligence with Knowledge. You can have a crap ton of knowledge and still only have average intelligence. For example, you can have fifteen ranks in knowledge history, the planes, religion, nobility, and nature, and still only have an intelligence score of 10.

Also you mistake wisdom for intelligence as well, if the intelligence, and wisdom drain were to be healed Elan would become not only a good deal smarter, but far less naive and childish. Also he would have a much better spot and listen modifiers, something that is desperately needed in the party.

[Rotipher]

Unfortunately, the damage happened so long ago that natural healing has already done as much repair-work as mundane biology could manage. Just as a Cure Wounds spell wouldn't restore additional hit points if you apply it to an old wound that's already sealed and scarred over, it's surely too late for Heal to repair a brain that's already mended itself (albeit imperfectly).

Moreover, the kind of damage baby Elan suffered would have had to count as ability drain, not ability damage. Else, he'd have recovered without any permanent ill effects. Heal can't fix ability drain.

[Snake-Aes]

So...with greater restoration, Elan would not only grasp basic math, but also...*gasp* have a clue about his surroundings?

THE HORRROR

[Trixie]

I'm curious: By what "rule" is Belkar able to whip out a lead shield larger than he is at will? :smallwink:

Hammerspace+light-load-allowance+never-checked-until-needed-part-of-the-character-sheet :smallamused:

[JMM]

...the kind of damage baby Elan suffered would have had to count as ability drain, not ability damage. Else, he'd have recovered without any permanent ill effects. Heal can't fix ability drain.

Not necessarily. Brain damage is unique in that it doesn't self-repair in the same fashion as, say, a hairline fracture. Most such trauma is handled/adapted to by the body, as opposed to actually healed.

Your perspective depends entirely on the intriguing interpretation that brain trauma of that sort should be considered ability drain rather than a unique type of long-term ability damage, the latter of which in my opinion seems more along the lines of what brain trauma actually is.

In addition, since Greater Restoration "cures all temporary ability damage," the implication is that it doesn't cure permanent ability damage, which Heal does.

I'd say either is a valid take.

[KillianHawkeye]

Heal does not remove negative levels, restore permanently drained levels, or restore permanently drained ability score points.


Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores.

Heal would not work, but greater restoration would. Heck, even normal restoration would do the job if they knew which ability score they wanted to heal.


Restoration cures all temporary ability damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from a single ability score (your choice if more than one is drained).

[Dagren]

Heal would not work, but greater restoration would. Heck, even normal restoration would do the job if they knew which ability score they wanted to heal.It says that the caster gets the choice if more than one is drained, so you might not even have to know that.

[JMM]

Thanks for your opinions.

[Cleverdan22]

As many people have pointed out many times, the story comes first. Not to mention that that was a one time joke, created to make the readers laugh. I doubt it will be changed. It would change Elan too much for him to be Elan anymore, and I don't think the joke was ever meant to be too important. But I could be wrong.

[JJ48]

I'm going to have to go with the idea that his head was still developing at that point, meaning that any "damage" done would have been locked in when he went from being a toddler into full childhood, and would thus be a PART of his character now, not some ADDED effect that could be removed.

Kind of like how you can have the grizzled old adventurer with a scar over his eye, not because he never got it healed, but because it's part of who he is, and thus healing would not affect it.

[JMM]

Occasionally throwaway lines and/or panels do take on greater meaning than originally intended.

Ultimately, though, Cleverdan22 is correct.

If it served Rich's purpose to give Elan an intellectual awakening via Heal, then h– ... Eh? What's that? ... ah, yes, of course ... pardon me ... Heal or Greater Restoration :smallwink: ... he would.

I agree that it almost certainly doesn't, and just thought exploring it would prove an amusing diversion.

[Elan man]

elan is fine the way he is he's been getting smarter over the last comics by himself

[liooil2000]

I agree with Elan man. Also, if there was any curable brain damage, it would've been healed at the beginning when Elan drank the potion which needed to have the same effect as heal to heal Elan.

[Elan man]

Yeah Elan doesn't need any False magics he can do it by himself (go liooil 2000

[Dagren]

I agree with Elan man. Also, if there was any curable brain damage, it would've been healed at the beginning when Elan drank the potion which needed to have the same effect as heal to heal Elan.Umm, when was that? I don't remember Elan ever drinking a potion of Heal.

[JJ48]

Umm, when was that? I don't remember Elan ever drinking a potion of Heal.

I think he was referring to one of the early, early strips, where Elan drank a "Potion of Cure _____ Wounds" (forget which it was). Incidentally, Cure _____ Wounds is NOT the same as Heal.

[JMM]

I'm going to have to go with the idea that his head was still developing at that point, meaning that any "damage" done would have been locked in when he went from being a toddler into full childhood, and would thus be a PART of his character now, not some ADDED effect that could be removed.

We seem to be going round and round on this.

The fact that his head was developing in no way alters the fact that the results of a blow qualify as damage. While it's certainly in the province of a DM to house rule that brain trauma becomes permanent (and thus beyond the capabilities of Heal) after a certain time, it's just as, if nor more, reasonable to say that Heal, a high-level spell, works as stated in the rules.

It's simply a matter of how a game master chooses to interpret the effect of a Heal spell on old wounds.

Does it:
Eradicate scarring?
Fill in ear (or other more interesting) piercings?
Restore a hymen?

Any and all of these might legitimately be interpreted as falling under Heal's purview.


Incidentally, Cure _____ Wounds is NOT the same as Heal.

Quite right.