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View Full Version : [4E] Bloodiron Weapon's Ambiguity



Thajocoth
2009-04-21, 11:16 AM
My halfling rogue, Hank L. Biter, just got a +3 Bloodiron Dagger. The description for Bloodiron Weapon seems somewhat ambiguous to me though...

"Property: When you deal extra critical hit damage with this
weapon, deal the extra critical hit damage to the target
again at the start of your next turn."

First of... At the start of my next turn after I crit, do I roll new crit damage? Or do I take the same result from my initial attack?

Secondly... If I crit two or three times in a single turn, does this extra damage stack? Or does the creature only take the additional damage from one of my crits when my next turn starts?

Thirdly... Does the damage at the start of my next turn include crit dice from other sources, such as the High Crit property, the Devastating Critical feat or Flame Bracers?

Finally... If critting grants me a free attack with my offhand dagger, is it possible for the result of the offhand dagger's attack to effect what's dealt at the start of my next turn?

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In case you couldn't tell, Hank's a sort of "glass cannon". He hits hard and falls easy. He's short, even for a Halfling, at 3'10" 75lbs. He speaks Giant and hangs out with a pair of Dragonborn who're about 7' tall each. He's got a bit of Napoleonic Syndrome, which he makes up for by fearlessly leaping into the fray and trying to out-damage everyone else.

Tyger
2009-04-21, 11:28 AM
Not sure what is ambiguous here for you...


First of... At the start of my next turn after I crit, do I roll new crit damage? Or do I take the same result from my initial attack?

The word "the" is important in the property. You deal the same amount of damage you already rolled. So no, you don't have to re-roll it. If your extra crit damage was 20 points, that is "the" damage that would repeat.


Secondly... If I crit two or three times in a single turn, does this extra damage stack? Or does the creature only take the additional damage from one of my crits when my next turn starts?

The property does not say that it applies only on a single crit, nor that it does not stack. "When" (unmodified) is inclusive, not exclusive, so there is no reason to say that it only applies once. Therefore, it would apply as many times as you crit.


Thirdly... Does the damage at the start of my next turn include crit dice from other sources, such as the High Crit property, the Devastating Critical feat or Flame Bracers?

No. The property again is very clear. Its only the extra critical hit damage from this weapon. Not the extra damage that other abilities grant you, or that you add in from feats, powers, etc. Unless your power or ability increases the critical hit damage itself (for example if you have an ability that increases your critical hit dice from d6s to d8s... I am AFB, so can't really comment on the specifics that you have noted.


Finally... If critting grants me a free attack with my offhand dagger, is it possible for the result of the offhand dagger's attack to effect what's dealt at the start of my next turn?

No. The property is clear - damage dealt with THIS weapon is repeated. No mention of any other weapon's damage. Nuff said.

Granted, this is RAW, and may not be RAI. That would be open to many, many interpretations. But a plain language reading of that shows the above results.

Thajocoth
2009-04-21, 11:44 AM
No. The property again is very clear. Its only the extra critical hit damage from this weapon. Not the extra damage that other abilities grant you, or that you add in from feats, powers, etc. Unless your power or ability increases the critical hit damage itself (for example if you have an ability that increases your critical hit dice from d6s to d8s... I am AFB, so can't really comment on the specifics that you have noted.

Oh, well, the High Crit property of a weapon adds 1[W] to your crit dice. Normally that's only on big stuff like Greataxes, but there's a feat a Rogue can take to treat Daggers as a High Crit weapon.

Flame Bracers add 1d6 fire damage to your crit dice if you crit with a melee attack.

The Devastating Critical feat adds 1d10 damage to your crit dice.

So it's one example each of a weapon property, another magical item and a feat. Really, this is the most ambiguous part of the weapon's property as it says "the extra critical hit damage" which is neither "the extra critical hit damage from this weapon" or "the extra critical hit damage including critical hit damage from other sources". It's simply not specified leaving us to guess at the writer's intent.

I would rule that these do add to the damage that's dealt twice as they are adding to the additional crit damage, but it IS ambiguous. The other things you said, I most certainly agree with, and really, for all of it I'll go with whatever my GM rules... (He's still deciding.) But I just want a few opinions from other people for my own curiosity more than anything else.

AbyssKnight
2009-04-21, 11:52 AM
I agree with Tyger on all points except the third.

The property does not address where the extra critical damage comes from, only that it is dealt "with this weapon."

Note it does not say, "from this weapon."

So I would say that extra critical damage from other sources (Devastating Critical or Flame Bracers) would in fact be repeated the next round.

Even if you go with Tyger's interpretation, the High Crit property should still apply, as it is from the weapon itself.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-21, 12:15 PM
Note that this is one of the very best weapons in the book, so I would recommend all DMs to restrict this to just the damage from the magic weapon's pluses, regardless of whether another interpretation makes the weapon even more powerful.

Tyger
2009-04-21, 01:24 PM
Ah! AbyssKnight makes some good points there, which I did qualify with regard to my being AFB.

That said, I would likely stand by my original post on the Bracers though. They are not adding to the weapon itself, nor to its extra critical dice, but are adding in their own dice seperate from the weapon. The High and Devastating Crit properties on the other hand, likely should add.