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aivanther
2009-04-21, 12:32 PM
Okay, some background.

Long ago, there was a nerdy pre-teen/teen who played a little AD&D. He liked it, but the only two people he played with moved away and so he sold his books after a couple of months of sitting on his shelf. Fast forwards a decade and a bit later and said pre-teen has been given almost the complete set of 3.5 D&D by a friend who was getting out of it. Said young adult has now begun playing some play-by-post games, dabbling and trying to figure things out. He has run a rogue and a bard, and some others things, in mostly low to mid level games, focusing mainly on RP, sometimes actually being effective in a fight. Now it's time to learn how to actually build a character that's useful. There's a full force munchkining game available for me, a place to play with ultimate min-maxing as the DM tries his best to kill us and perhaps it would be good to see what really works and what doesn't.

So, I have a series of questions about build optimizations. This will go everything from basic optimization so I don't suck, to munckining for the above mentioned game. I'll probably post these questions one at a time with clarifications. I'm looking for maximum amount of input, so feel free to post your thoughts even if others disagree. Explanations of reasoning is very very helpful.

Okay, first: I'm looking at building a wizard for the above munchkin game. I've read some on the focused specialist build, and like the concept. I also hear that the Incantrix is a major powerhouse.
First of all, my question is why is the Incantrix so powerful?
Secondly, how would you best build a high level (say, 16) wizard? What sort of PrCs, feats, and spells would you choose?

Oh, and if you use an acronym for the first time in this post, please explain it if you would, I often get confused by SLA, TWF, THF, etc.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 12:47 PM
Conjuration is the best specialization, bar none. Between Immediate Jaunt(PHB2) and the fact that it's the largest school, you can't go wrong with picking it. Grab the Fighter Feat variant(UA) for Improved Initiative and trade your Familiar for Immediate Jaunt. I'd also snag Spontaneous Divination(CChamp) at level 5 just due to the versatility. Incantrix for 10 levels, take Extend, Persist, Twin, and Split spell, and possibly Empower. Specialist is better than Focused at high levels, but you can afford to ban Enchantment, Evocation, and either Necromancy or Abjuration(though both of those hurt to lose).

Incantrix is viewed as awesome due to free/cheap metamagic. Making spells that are designed to last 2 minutes last all day is incredible. This requires Persist Spell(CArc) and the highest Spellcraft check you can(should be +65 minimum before rolling at level 20. Do it right, and by burning slots on things like Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Mindblank, you end up undetectable, incorporeal, immune to most methods of attack, and you can light people on fire at-will. Most of the best stuff, though, kicks in at level 17, so that hurts.

All of that said, Wizards require a lot of work to optimize, and a lot of experience to play broken. You may want to go with a Planar Sheperd or Ubercharger instead.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-21, 12:54 PM
Incantrix(at least the 3.5 version) is powerful because one can stack various metamagics for essentially free, which can quickly become ridiculous. Note that this often involves using the orb spells(comp arcane), and that at the final levels it can do 300 damage(plus 2 negative levels and some status effects) in a turn, and then do it again next turn.

As for the best wizard, what do you want to do? In any case, I would suggest reading The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman, and possibly Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=956548)

Also, you've said that it's a Munchkin game, but you really mean it's a powergaming game(Munchkin implies cheating), but can you give us an Idea about what the other players/the Dm is using?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-21, 01:07 PM
As a counterpoint to the above, I would suggest Transmutation as your specialty, as many of the Conjuration spells which are staples also do not come with saving throws, so your bonus to DC on saves in your area of specialty isn't as widely used. However, when you start tossing around Save or Loose effects from the Transmutation college like Disintegrate or Baleful Polymorph, that extra +1 can mean a lot.

Also, as a counterpoint to the above suggestion to turn in your familiar, it really hurts a wizard's power. Imbue Spell Familiar. Your familiar gets to cast your spells. If you abuse Incantatrix enough, your familiar can be casting 2-3 spells a round, effectively doubling your number of spells cast in a round, and conserving the most valuable asset to ANYONE in D&D... actions.

The only Metamagic feat that you absolutely cannot go without is Quicken. Everything else is gravy, and can be used to boost your power significantly, but Quicken effectively doubles the number of spells you can cast in one turn. This is beyond gold, this is platinum-etched Win.

From there, Empower works better than Maximize in most cases, and costs less to use, so it is generally seen as a better deal.

Still and Silent are not too useful to you, although a Silent Dimension Door can get you out of an area of silence quickly and effectively.

Contingency is the ultimate 'NO' button. If you get any spell in the entire game, get this one. Even better, you don't actually NEED to get Contingency, just grab Greater Shadow Evocation, and you can ban Evocation with a happy heart. Same thing with the two or three other Evocation spells that are worth having, Greater Shadow Evocation is a wonderful way to eliminate the need for an entire college of magic.

I would advise against focused specialization. You can dump Evocation with the certain knowledge that it won't hurt you at all. You can dump Enchantment and console yourself with the fact that almost everything you are going to run into at your level will be immune to mind affecting anyways. Loosing another college, however, sucks. Necromancy has Enervation, which just begs to be abused with Metamagic.

Split Ray Empowered Enervation dishes out more negative levels than the 9th level spell version, at a lower spell level. A quickened Enervation pretty much reduces opponent's saves by 1d4+1 before you drop your big boom on something. So you Imbue your Familiar with Empowered Enervation and Quickened Enervation, and let him drop the target's saves before you drop the bomb with your Save or Loose spell.

Likewise, Abjuration has some spells that are simply too good to pass up, like Dispel Magic and Greater version thereof, and the humble Shield spell, which while not too powerful by itself, becomes godly when Persisted. You also loose access to Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, and many other useful "Bat-Shark-Repellent" type spells.

How to make youself immune to YES:

1) The spell 'Celerity'
2) A way to do Contingency (either the Craft Contingency feat, which is broken on crack, or Greater Shadow Evocation)
3) Time Stop

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. Use the standard action from Celerity to cast Sudden Maximized Time Stop. You now have 4 rounds to win in. If you cannot win or run in 4 rounds when your opponent cannot act, you do not deserve to play wizard. Common tactics include Cloudkill + Forcecage + Dimension Lock (all area spells that you can cast in time stop). Guaranteed Con damage every round that the opponent cannot get out of without the use of significant magic (and has to beat your caster level check to get out of). Only works if opponent is not immune to stat damage or poison.

There are many ways to break Wizard, Sstoopidtallkid mentioned one, I'm mentioning another.

Darrin
2009-04-21, 01:18 PM
Okay, first: I'm looking at building a wizard for the above munchkin game. I've read some on the focused specialist build, and like the concept. I also hear that the Incantrix is a major powerhouse.
First of all, my question is why is the Incantrix so powerful?


Well, according to Emperor_Tippy, two words: "Persistent Shapechange". Beyond that, there are a variety of reasons:

1) Easy requirements. Iron Will (which you can pick up without spending a feat via Otyuph Hole, a legendary site in Complete Scoundrel), plus one other metamagic feat, which you were probably going to pick up anyway. No cross-class skill requirements to worry about, and no useless feats that you're never going to use anyway.

2) Full caster levels. If you're going to optimize as a wizard, then the one cardinal sin you must avoid at all costs is taking levels in anything that doesn't include +1 caster level.

3) Easier metamagic. If you line up all of the most broken and abusable combos in the game, a good 98% of them involve applying various metamagic effects to spells while reducing the level increases normally incurred by metamagic feats. Incantatrixes can apply metamagic feats to a spell cast by an ally, to an existing spell effect, and to spell-trigger items such as wands.

4) Even easier metamagic. Instant metamagic allows an incantatrix to apply a metamagic feat to a spell without increasing the level or the casting time. Limited uses per day, but allows the really expensive metamagic feats (Persistent, Quicken, and Chain mostly) to be applied to really high-level spells such as Shapechange, Timestop, and so forth.

5) Even stupidly-insanely easier metamagic. The capstone ability, when combined with Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and/or Practical Metamagic, and feats such as Energy Substitution and Invisibile Spell that don't increase spell levels, means you can create an Empowered, Split, Twin, Maximized, Energy Admixtured, Searing, Piercing, Invisible, Energy Substituted, Enervated, Sanctum, Fell Draining, Chained, Quickened Scorching Ray that deals several hundred points of damage in addition to several other save-or-lose effects as a 2nd level spell.

The key to any good wizard PrC is if you get significantly more class abilities than just sticking with wizard. The Incantatrix is a little like walking into a candy store to buy a box of chocolates, and then finding out that you now own the whole candy store.



Secondly, how would you best build a high level (say, 16) wizard? What sort of PrCs, feats, and spells would you choose?


Unfortunately, Emperor_Tippy has never posted his Cindy build, even though she's frequently mentioned as the gold standard for abusing Incantatrix... her sheet may have been online at some point, but I don't think it is now. The typical Incantatrix build looks something like:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Something Else 5

That Something Else is usually Archmage, Mage of the Arcane Order, Master Specialist, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, or Abjurant Champion.

For specific feats and spells... that's a little more complicated, but almost everyone on these forums pretty much starts with LogicNinja's Batman guide and then develops their own idiosyncractic preferences from there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 01:30 PM
As a counterpoint to the above, I would suggest Transmutation as your specialty, as many of the Conjuration spells which are staples also do not come with saving throws, so your bonus to DC on saves in your area of specialty isn't as widely used. However, when you start tossing around Save or Loose effects from the Transmutation college like Disintegrate or Baleful Polymorph, that extra +1 can mean a lot.Though the boost to save DCs isn't the point of FS, the point is the boosted spells per day, IMHO, where the variety and versatility of Conj kicks in. Plus, Conj gets the best ACFs.
Also, as a counterpoint to the above suggestion to turn in your familiar, it really hurts a wizard's power. Imbue Spell Familiar. Your familiar gets to cast your spells. If you abuse Incantatrix enough, your familiar can be casting 2-3 spells a round, effectively doubling your number of spells cast in a round, and conserving the most valuable asset to ANYONE in D&D... actions.Obtain Familiar. Teleporting as an immediate action is well worth having to spend a feat to get your Raven back.

Familiars are odd. They are like turning, you either max them by giving them casting and any benefits you can from feats/items, or you trade them for something better.
The only Metamagic feat that you absolutely cannot go without is Quicken. Everything else is gravy, and can be used to boost your power significantly, but Quicken effectively doubles the number of spells you can cast in one turn. This is beyond gold, this is platinum-etched Win.Truth. I should have mentioned this, but it is so basic it slipped my mind. Quicken you always need access to. Using Incantrix is great, but even without meta-reducers, at the least snag a Rod of it.
From there, Empower works better than Maximize in most cases, and costs less to use, so it is generally seen as a better deal.

Still and Silent are not too useful to you, although a Silent Dimension Door can get you out of an area of silence quickly and effectively. Split Ray is epic for Orbs/Enervation/Ray of Dragon-rape(Exhaustion), but other than his exclusion of that I agree with all of this, especially for an Incantrix.
Contingency is the ultimate 'NO' button. If you get any spell in the entire game, get this one. Even better, you don't actually NEED to get Contingency, just grab Greater Shadow Evocation, and you can ban Evocation with a happy heart. Same thing with the two or three other Evocation spells that are worth having, Greater Shadow Evocation is a wonderful way to eliminate the need for an entire college of magic.I recommend the Craft Contingent Spell feat, so you aren't limited to just one.
I would advise against focused specialization. You can dump Evocation with the certain knowledge that it won't hurt you at all. You can dump Enchantment and console yourself with the fact that almost everything you are going to run into at your level will be immune to mind affecting anyways. Loosing another college, however, sucks. Necromancy has Enervation, which just begs to be abused with Metamagic. So would I, but if you must, consider Abjuration. Everything you can do with it, so can the Cleric/Artificer/Archivist, and you can steal the effect from them(ask first).
How to make youself immune to YES:

1) The spell 'Celerity'
2) A way to do Contingency (either the Craft Contingency feat, which is broken on crack, or Greater Shadow Evocation)
3) Time Stop

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. Use the standard action from Celerity to cast Sudden Maximized Time Stop. You now have 4 rounds to win in. If you cannot win or run in 4 rounds when your opponent cannot act, you do not deserve to play wizard. Common tactics include Cloudkill + Forcecage + Dimension Lock (all area spells that you can cast in time stop). Guaranteed Con damage every round that the opponent cannot get out of without the use of significant magic (and has to beat your caster level check to get out of). Only works if opponent is not immune to stat damage or poison.

There are many ways to break Wizard, Sstoopidtallkid mentioned one, I'm mentioning another.Yes. Part of the issue here is we don't know what you plan to do. Wizard is about the broadest class in the game. Even Artificer is at least discouraged from PrCing. Every Wizard will have different feats, spells, PrCs, gear, and stats, meaning that my Malconvoker using summoned demons to compensate for the lack of a party meatshield will work very differently from his optimized Save-or-Lose Incantrix debuffer focusing on stacking penalties. Tell us more, we can help you better.

Edit:
Unfortunately, Emperor_Tippy has never posted his Cindy build, even though she's frequently mentioned as the gold standard for abusing Incantatrix... her sheet may have been online at some point, but I don't think it is now. It was posted at one point(it was made for a challenge on these boards to create an all-Wizard party along with a companion to abuse the synergy of 2 Incantrixes[Incantri? Incantrix+?]) But no, I don't have a copy handy.

Bluebeard
2009-04-21, 01:48 PM
Well, according to Emperor_Tippy, two words: "Persistent Shapechange".

I must be missing the point here. By the time you get shapechange, it has a four hour duration... it's going to be up most of the time anyway.


What sort of PrCs, feats, and spells would you choose?
My usual advice is to give Treeantmonk's guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548) a gander for spells and Dictum Mortuum's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=881457)* for Feats/Alternate Class Features/Equipment.
TLN's guide is kinda brief and out-of-date. A better read than DM's though.

Eldariel
2009-04-21, 01:54 PM
The last levels tend to be Archmage or 4 levels of Fatespinner [CArc]. It's relatively easy to qualify for Archmage and gives you a whole bunch of new toys to play with (especially Mastery of Shaping & Arcane Reach along with Spell Power & Spell-Like Ability). Also, you should always have a Familiar in higher level games. Fatespinner is trivial to qualify for and you get some rerolls and the ability to make saves easier or harder and such; 5th level loses casting for a crappy ability (only works on creatures with lower HD than you) so it sucks; rule of thumb, never lose casting unless you get something good (preferably for many levels) for it. Both classes kick royal butt. Also, one level of Mindbender [CArc] is considerable, combined with Mindsight [Lords of Madness], you get a practically impenetrable detection ability.

However, there're some great alternative class features that include giving your familiar away and you'd be a fool to skip up on them (Abrupt Jaunt being one, especially in games where Celerity isn't allowed; Rapid Summoning being another - I hope you notice why Conjuration gets all the good rap). This is why you should make use of the feat Obtain Familiar [CArc], which does exactly what the name suggests. As a small bonus, it's tied to your caster level, not your class level like normal so it continues to advance even when you PrC away from Wizard (of course, the abilities you gain on higher levels are of little importance, but it's just a nice bonus; the most important familiar-abilities are Share Spells, Empathic Link, Deliver Touch Spells & Speak with Master, and it's HD/stats, which are tied to your total stats anyways).


With regards to the best specialization, a case can be made for Transmutation and Conjuration. However, Conjuration gets by and large all the best alternative class features, which gives it the edge. Some specific characters though, such as Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [Abjurer to qualify] and Shadowcraft Mage [Illusionist for benefits] are better off with other specializations. But general Wizards and summoners are best off as Conjurers or Diviners - losing only one school can be a boon, and there're generally enough good Divinations to not lose much by preparing one on every level. You lose out on the alternative class features that way though, and Spontaneous Divination means you're wasting slots by preparing those Divinations.

Transmuters have one great ability in Spell Versatility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spellVersatility), but it competes with Spontaneous Divination [CChamp]. Still, it's one of the best ways to make up for the spells lost in specializing (pick Enervation, Dispel Magic or whatever). As far as Focused Specialists go, Necromancy costs you some stuff but you have enough other paths to attack to withstand that and if you have another caster to Dispel, Abjuration is expendable too, giving you the three schools necessary easily. It's just a question of how much you've got to give up. Focused Specialist: Conjurer/Illusionist is awesome on low levels though.


Anyways, just to correct the common misspelling, the class is Incantatrix (that's the name for a female member; most of 'em are female hence the name of the class, but the rare male ones are called Incantatars). And the biggest power of the class comes from the following abilities:

Cooperative Metamagic [Level 2]: Basically, you can apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell an ally casts (you could just have your familiar cast these spells with Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [SpC Level 6 Universal] if you need to work "alone") 3+Int times per day. At best, you apply Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) [CArc] and enjoy the 3+Int persisted buffs on the party.

Metamagic Effect [Level 3]: You can apply a metamagic feat you know to an effect in place. Basically, this allows you to persist another 3+Int spells of your choice - this time you can even cast them yourself.

Instant Metamagic [Level 7+9]: This is only 1/2 times per day, but it's a free metamagic on a spell you cast. You can persist two additional spells or boost your Boom Booms on the fly (something like Twin Spell, Quicken Spell or such is fun)

Improved Metamagic [Level 10]: All your metamagic costs are reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. In English, this allows you to stack a ****ton of metamagic feats on an offensive spell and deal few hundred points of damage with a level 9 slots. Combined with Arcane Thesis [PHBII], 0-adjustment metamagic feats (such as Invisible Spell [Cityscape] & Sanctum Spell [CArc]) and enough feats to reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat (Practical Metamagic [RoD], Easy Metamagic [Dragon 325] & co.) and you can be dealing a few hundred points of damage from slot, the same level as the original spell. And Quicken it for good measure. This is the ability Cindy really focuses on.


Of course, because Incantatrix isn't broken enough with the above abilities, you also get 4 free metamagic feats, ability to steal effects cast by other spellcasters, ability to apply metamagic to Wands & al. (like an Artificer indeed), etc. Basically, the class is just nuts. In so many ways it's not even funny. Remove 3 of the above 4 abilities and it's still worth taking.

Cindy mostly abuses the metamagic reduction although she makes some use out of the permanent effects too, but she especially takes the class for the -1 To Metamagic Costs; that ability is just ridiculous enough to be in a Wizard Prc. For the record, this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7809) is Tippy's build for the Grinder - basically the same build as Cindy.


Also, yea, Shapechange is probably the single most broken spell in the game. It, among other things, gives you infi stats and access to other spellcasting lists (Shapechange into something with Spellcasting and you get that Spellcasting - all you miss out on are spell-likes) and the ability to switch 'em at will. Basically, it turns you into an übertank with all the spells in the game, multiple actions per round and such. Reason to persist it? Saves you spellslots; casting it 3 times Extended takes quite a bit of resources, Persisting it ensures you don't run out at the wrong time. Much more comfortable to sleep as a Pit Fiend than a Gray Elf anyways.

monty
2009-04-21, 02:13 PM
Some specific characters though, such as Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [Abjurer to qualify] and Shadowcraft Mage [Illusionist for benefits] are better off with other specializations.

Why Abjurer for Iot7V? You don't need to be an abjurer to qualify, and I don't see any benefit from the class that's particularly better for an Abjurer. I suppose I can see going through Master Specialist to save a feat on GSF, but is one feat really worth a subpar specialization?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-21, 02:17 PM
If you don't know what book a feat, spell, class, or prestige class is from, check one of these lists (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists). The book abbreviation key is at the bottom of each page.

Check out The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), if you see a spell there that's not in the PHB, check Spell Compendium, then Player's Handbook 2 and Complete Mage, then the spell list at the above link.

Incantatrix gets Metamagic Effect at level 3, which with an affordable +X Spellcraft item (bonus squared x100 gp) you can cast the highest level personal-range buffs you know and add Persistent Spell to them afterward, with no risk of failure by taking 10 on the check. You should use the Fighter Feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) for Wizard, originally found in Unearthed Arcana, to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Ideally you want to go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 10, and then either one, two, or five more Master Specialist levels depending on the level 4 and 7 abilities, then finish the build with some other prestige classes such as Mindbender 1, Archmage 2-3, etc.

Feats of choice will include Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Metamagic School Focus, Improved Initiative, Mindsight (via Mindbender 1), Residual Magic, Split Ray, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Ocular Spell, Easy Metamagic (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf), etc. Don't bother trying to use spells to deal damage, that's not Batman's job. You want to use spells like (Maximized) Enervation and (Maximized) Ray of Light with Split Ray and Ocular Spell, use a Metamagic Rod for Maximize. Focus on disabling and debuffing your opponents, if you can deal 300 hp per round to something with 900 hp, it gets three rounds to kill you and your party, which it will. If you use one spell on the first round to make that same opponent unable to continue fighting, you and your party get to survive the encounter.

An even stronger wizard IMO would be a Shadowcraft Mage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556), though you may need an encyclopedic knowledge of 3.5 evocations and conjurations for that to work.

Douglas
2009-04-21, 02:26 PM
Cindy mostly abuses the metamagic reduction although she makes some use out of the permanent effects too, but she especially takes the class for the -1 To Metamagic Costs; that ability is just ridiculous enough to be in a Wizard Prc. For the record, this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7809) is Tippy's build for the Grinder - basically the same build as Cindy.
Ah yes, the Grinder. I occasionally wonder how Tippy (plus his friend and whatever other party members they come up with to fill out the numbers) would fare against the party I made for that game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794). Looking at that sheet, I'm not sure that character is even capable of harming my party without some incredible luck.

It's unfortunate the GM disappeared before I got very far.

Eldariel
2009-04-21, 02:28 PM
Why Abjurer for Iot7V? You don't need to be an abjurer to qualify, and I don't see any benefit from the class that's particularly better for an Abjurer. I suppose I can see going through Master Specialist to save a feat on GSF, but is one feat really worth a subpar specialization?

Well, Master Specialist gets you both, Skill Focus: Spellcraft and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration, so it's a solid PrC. Also, Master Abjurer is actually a fairly solid version of Master Specialist. You get:
-½ Class Level boost to Dispel-checks (Awesome! Especially with Kaleidoscopic Doom; note that as it doesn't increase your caster level, but just increases your Dispel-check, it exceeds the cap on Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic)
-Whenever you cast Abjuration, you get Evasion + Mettle for a while. With Greater Resistance and whatnot along with Immediate Action Abjurations (Karmics, for example), this is fairly awesome.
-Level 10 ability: You may cast this Anti-Magic Field as a Touch Spell (and share your personal buffs with the team) 3/day. Please give whoever you target my fondest. In other words, you gain a completely crippling Touch Attack No SR Non Mind-Affecting spell. Combine with Reach Spell/Arcane Reach for Club Fairplay-level stuff.

And few nice CL buffs (I'd like to point out that Maw of Chaos, the uncapped damage spell, is Abjuration so those CL buffs tend to be better here than anywhere else). So while you probably aren't making a Focused Specialist, I think it's easy enough to learn to like Master Abjurer. Saying "No" to everything (with Battlemagic Perception, Divine Defiance or some such) really touches the blue wizard within too. And really, that +5 is such a decisive bonus that things not heavily warded against dispelling are easily going to fall prey to it. One of the few characters who can actually competently dispel against pimped out Wizards (especially those Conjurers with ~+9 to the opposed checks, a number you too can reach by taking Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightement (Inquisition)), and doesn't really lose much by acquiring that capability. Then just Chain Greater Dispel Magic FTW.

monty
2009-04-21, 02:31 PM
Ideally you want to go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 10

Debatable. Doing that means you can't get Spontaneous Divination, which is pretty damn useful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-21, 02:32 PM
Why Abjurer for Iot7V? You don't need to be an abjurer to qualify, and I don't see any benefit from the class that's particularly better for an Abjurer. I suppose I can see going through Master Specialist to save a feat on GSF, but is one feat really worth a subpar specialization?

Prerequisites include Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration and the ability to cast 5 different Abjuration spells, two of which must be at least 4th level. Saving two feats and easier to meet the casting prerequisites generally is seen as worth it. Besides, Abjuration is a solid school.

I recall once a build based on Iot7V + AbChamp for some very silly effects, particularly when paired with a class that promotes class abilities, enabling him to get higher than 3rd level Abjuration spells auto-quickened...

Iot7V is good for defense, but Incantatrix is just plain all-around goodness.

Myrmex
2009-04-21, 02:32 PM
Do you plan on leveling up?

If not, a sorcerer might be the better choice, since you would get 8 & 9th level spells.

If you do, wizard will be better.

monty
2009-04-21, 02:39 PM
Prerequisites include Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration and the ability to cast 5 different Abjuration spells, two of which must be at least 4th level. Saving two feats and easier to meet the casting prerequisites generally is seen as worth it. Besides, Abjuration is a solid school.

I really can't see a wizard having difficulty meeting the casting requirements, outside of a campaign where he has no access to any other casters at all. And Abjuration may be a decent school, but Conjuration is just so much better. Besides, Abrupt Jaunt is great for giving your opponent's attack the finger.

Eldariel
2009-04-21, 02:55 PM
I really can't see a wizard having difficulty meeting the casting requirements, outside of a campaign where he has no access to any other casters at all. And Abjuration may be a decent school, but Conjuration is just so much better. Besides, Abrupt Jaunt is great for giving your opponent's attack the finger.

It's not like you're banning Conjuration - you can still prepare Conjurations for your heart's content. The question is really of the abilities you'd get and while Abrupt Jaunt is awesome, I can't really see an Abjurer having trouble keeping himself alive. Conjuration might be better, but I don't think it's one feat worth of better.

Really, when making a non-focused specialist, the specialization school doesn't matter spell-wise. It's the banned schools that matter; mostly you'll be happy preparing one spell of any school per level anyways. Now, with Focused Specialist, you'll need to mind the spell list, but for a mere Specialist, it's rather trivial.

aivanther
2009-04-21, 04:07 PM
Wow, didn't realize I'd get such a fast response. Thanks guys, the reading is really helping me figure out where I want to go with it, and what I want to do. Someone asked about the campaign, well, irc there's a Planar Shepherd with with a vow of poverty, house ruled to allow one or two magic items in.

Oh, what is so great about planar shepherd while we are on the topic?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 04:19 PM
Wow, didn't realize I'd get such a fast response. Thanks guys, the reading is really helping me figure out where I want to go with it, and what I want to do. Someone asked about the campaign, well, irc there's a Planar Shepherd with with a vow of poverty, house ruled to allow one or two magic items in.

Oh, what is so great about planar shepherd while we are on the topic?This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109807) thread is discussing the power level of PrCs compared to Gestalt, and is currently on Planar Shepherd.

If you're too lazy to click, the long and short of it is that you essentially get Wish as a SLA(so no cost for crafting any magic item, including epic ones, +5 inherrant to all stats for your party), or you can get 10x as many actions as anyone else(or both, depending on the setting), plus it advances all your Druid abilities(which no other PrC does).

Tehnar
2009-04-21, 04:30 PM
I was about to comment how some DMs might frown on metamagic reducers and +0 metamagic feats giving a -1 effective spell slot, but since the DM allows wow of poverty planar shepards, Ill just say: Go get 'em dawg:smallbiggrin:!

aivanther
2009-04-21, 04:31 PM
Ah, okay, I guess I never really considered the implications of shape changing to all those things in the plane.

Okay, here's another question. A game I've just started to get my feet wet as a skill monkey (i.e. some slightly more than just fluffy rping) is a bard (okay, it's mainly an rp) PrCs into a Harper Agent (yes, definitely Rping...).

Anywho, I have some slight diplomancer tendencies (think it's at +22 Diplo).

Withou getting to complicated, it's lvl 8
Human Bard 5/Harper 3
Feats: Artist, Negotiator, Versatile Performer, Melodic Casting

As I said, diplo mainly, also have some other rather high social skills (bluff, sense motive, etc) and high performance in Dance, Sing, and Harp. Question is, where do I take it from here? I've thought about either Lyric Tha-whatever, Virtuoso, or Cloaked Dancer. There's some others I have looked over much eyt to...

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-21, 04:43 PM
Ah yes, the Grinder. I occasionally wonder how Tippy (plus his friend and whatever other party members they come up with to fill out the numbers) would fare against the party I made for that game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794). Looking at that sheet, I'm not sure that character is even capable of harming my party without some incredible luck.

It's unfortunate the GM disappeared before I got very far.

Well yeah, you got to create a whole party. If you can be sure of the entire party, and play more fun characters, you can take the time out for Wu-Jen/Incantatrix, and then take "better" PrCs for your Wizards and still have everything Persisted.

That's great, but for those of us making just a single character, we like to sit on Wizard/Incantatrix instead.

And out of curiosity, how were you planning on doing anything to Cindy? I don't see any way you could cause her any direct harm either.

Cindy vs Cindy is the ultimate 1v1 showdown, and we know how it ends: neither of them even finds the other one.

Draz74
2009-04-21, 04:49 PM
Oh, what is so great about planar shepherd while we are on the topic?

Mostly just the fact that Druid is already a broken, whole-party-in-one class, and Planar Shepherd advances all of Druid's important features. That would be enough to make Planar Shepherd broken, even if its unique features sucked.

But Planar Bubble doesn't suck. Duplicating various planar traits leads to all sorts of extra madness.

Douglas
2009-04-21, 05:10 PM
And out of curiosity, how were you planning on doing anything to Cindy? I don't see any way you could cause her any direct harm either.
True Seeing to ignore the Superior Invisibility, and plain old attacking. She's got Greater Celerity but it's only prepared twice and only works 1/round at most. Greater Blink appears to be her only other defense against non-spell attacks, and it's not going to do all that much.

And before you ask, Mind Blank does not prevent True Seeing from working. I realize some people will disagree with me, but I am firmly of the belief that, while RAW may be somewhat ambiguous, the psionic version of it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm) makes RAI abundantly clear, and I'm pretty sure the DM of the game in question would agree with me.

Chronos
2009-04-21, 08:04 PM
Quoth douglas:
Ah yes, the Grinder. I occasionally wonder how Tippy (plus his friend and whatever other party members they come up with to fill out the numbers) would fare against the party I made for that game. Looking at that sheet, I'm not sure that character is even capable of harming my party without some incredible luck.Of course, that doesn't mean that Incantatrix isn't broken; it just means that it's even more broken when you're building 108 character levels around it instead of just 20. Well, OK, 90 character levels, since the Mo9 wasn't persisting anything.

Incidentally, why did you use a cleric instead of an archivist for that? You're taking Sacred Exorcist anyway, in case you need any Turn Undeads, and that'd open up your spell list options some. Also, why no Giant Size, since you have a Wu Jen anyway?


Quoth aivanther:
Okay, here's another question. A game I've just started to get my feet wet as a skill monkey (i.e. some slightly more than just fluffy rping) is a bard (okay, it's mainly an rp) PrCs into a Harper Agent (yes, definitely Rping...).

Anywho, I have some slight diplomancer tendencies (think it's at +22 Diplo).

Withou getting to complicated, it's lvl 8
Human Bard 5/Harper 3
Feats: Artist, Negotiator, Versatile Performer, Melodic CastingThat all depends on what houserules your DM is using concerning Diplomacy and/or Bluff. If he's using them as written, then you never need to use anything at all other than Diplomacy, and even if he nerfed Diplomacy into uselessness, you can still get a heck of a lot of use out of Bluff, especially with a bonus of +100 on it or so. The spells you're looking for for that are Improvisation, Serene Visage, Glibness, and Voice of the Dragon (all in Spell Compendium except for Glibness in the PHB), plus anything else that can boost Charisma or skill checks.

Eldariel
2009-04-21, 08:26 PM
Mostly just the fact that Druid is already a broken, whole-party-in-one class, and Planar Shepherd advances all of Druid's important features. That would be enough to make Planar Shepherd broken, even if its unique features sucked.

But Planar Bubble doesn't suck. Duplicating various planar traits leads to all sorts of extra madness.

You forgot the more important part: It turns your Wildshape into Hour/Level Shapechange++ (it grants Spell-Likes!). Oh, and it gives you an insane bunch of Wildshape forms. And yeah, you get Planar Bubble (Wizard and company can cast the spell too, but it only works for your native plane - Material Plane isn't exactly the most impressive battlefield ever, but a Planar Shepherd gets the stats of any plane and there are some planes insane in many different senses), which you can customise into anything from Super Vigorous Circle to Mass Time Stop You Can Affect Opponents In. Oh, and it's a Spell-Like and thus effectively uncounterable, among other things. Oh, and then there's that Magical Beast Wildshape, which includes among other things some Hydra-shapes, a shape people burn a feat for alone.

So you take the best class in the game (Druid), advance everything it gets (except like...Venom Immunity?), make one of its most powerful abilities far more powerful & gain the ability to use an ability more powerful than a level 9 spell on level 9. Oh, and you lose nothing. You need exactly one feat and even that happens to be a good one you'd be happy to pick anyways. Some ranks in stuff you'd max anyways and that's it.


Oh yeah, and you enter on level 6. In fact, all of the Big Three PrCs (Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd) allow entry on level 6 and they all share one thing: They take something that's already insanely good, improve everything relevant it gets and give a bunch of busted abilities as a free bonus. And they do it fast. That's indeed why they're busted.

aivanther
2009-04-21, 09:57 PM
Okay, diplo/bluffing line I can do. Oh, this may turn into a primary dungeon crawl (not sure, but it's been implied). How would you take the class after I max out Harper Agent?

Sorry if I'm not providing lots of info, but I'm really trying to get broad information. As I said in my opening post I've played DnD before, but semi-new to 3.5 and don't know all the possibilities, or even some of the possibilities.

The reality is with most things I really don't know where I want to take things. I truly enjoy the role playing part, but don't want to be part dead weight due to fluff.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-21, 11:07 PM
True Seeing to ignore the Superior Invisibility, and plain old attacking. She's got Greater Celerity but it's only prepared twice and only works 1/round at most. Greater Blink appears to be her only other defense against non-spell attacks, and it's not going to do all that much.

And before you ask, Mind Blank does not prevent True Seeing from working. I realize some people will disagree with me, but I am firmly of the belief that, while RAW may be somewhat ambiguous, the psionic version of it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm) makes RAI abundantly clear, and I'm pretty sure the DM of the game in question would agree with me.

The DM also banned Tippy from taking place in the game, and repeatedly made arbitrary crazy 'I hate Tippy' rulings for no apparent reason. If your argument is that the DM is on your side, that's a pretty silly argument.

But 1) If True Seeing isn't blocked by Mindsight, then he would add additional protections.

2) Is your weapon made of metal? Congratulations, your attack does nothing.

3) True Seeing still only reaches 120ft. So, no. Mindsight works for location within 100ft, but it still doesn't help if you can't get within 100ft or 120ft, or actually get a full attack.

4) How I forgot to not put this in the last post I don't know: Tippy wasn't planning to do anything to your party. The Grinder goal was not to kill a bunch of things, so yeah, Tippy can have a fun time just not killing things and being invulnerable.

tyckspoon
2009-04-21, 11:19 PM
After Harper Agent.. maybe consider Inspire Courage optimization. Grab the feat Song of the Heart (Eberron campaign setting) and use the Inspirational Boost spell for a quick +2. It's hard to be dead weight in a party when you're regularly providing a decent party-wide buff. If you want more personal power, find out what it would take you to get into Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)- it extends your Bard casting table into Sorcerer casting, essentially, which gives you the power of a full caster while still being a Bard (but then, if you go that way you may find you just wanted to be an inspirational Sorcerer anyway.)

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-21, 11:26 PM
After Harper Agent.. maybe consider Inspire Courage optimization. Grab the feat Song of the Heart (Eberron campaign setting) and use the Inspirational Boost spell for a quick +2. It's hard to be dead weight in a party when you're regularly providing a decent party-wide buff. If you want more personal power, find out what it would take you to get into Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)- it extends your Bard casting table into Sorcerer casting, essentially, which gives you the power of a full caster while still being a Bard (but then, if you go that way you may find you just wanted to be an inspirational Sorcerer anyway.)

What is this blasphemy? Giving actual advice to the OP! I counterspell with Holy Word (That works right?).

Chronos
2009-04-21, 11:34 PM
Oh, and you lose nothing. You need exactly one feat and even that happens to be a good one you'd be happy to pick anyways. Some ranks in stuff you'd max anyways and that's it.Doesn't it at least require Knowledge (the Planes), too? That's not on the druid skill list. Granted, you can get it with a single feat (Education to get all Knowledge skills in-class), but that really is a wasted feat (oh woe is me, I need to waste one feat to get unlimited free Wishes and a 10-to-1 action advantage :smalltongue:)

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-21, 11:36 PM
You only need 4 ranks, so it's easily doable by the 5th level.

Talic
2009-04-22, 12:16 AM
Might I suggest an alternate route?

Do a google search for "Killer Gnome Illusionist".

It will explain how to turn Silent Image into anything you can imagine... Up to and including Miracle.

That's one of the powerhouse Wizard builds.

Another is the Incantatrix, which, when combined with other metamagic reducers, creates powerhouse combos such as Twin spell repeating split ray chain spell maximized Enervate. This is typically referred to as a "Cindy" build.

The 3rd strong build is a standard batman build. Focus on Save or Die spells. I love Focused Specialist Transmuters for this.

aivanther
2009-04-22, 04:39 PM
Okay, another question on different class. How might one best go about doing an archer? Straight scout? PrC and fighter? What feats would you choose?

tyckspoon
2009-04-22, 05:00 PM
Okay, another question on different class. How might one best go about doing an archer? Straight scout? PrC and fighter? What feats would you choose?

Depends on what kind of archery you want to do. If you're looking for something that works inside the normal combat zone of D&D (that is, usually within a couple of move actions) the Swift Hunter build is the standard; that's Ranger 16/Scout 4, using the Swift Hunter feat to advance Scout's Skirmish. Get some means of free/swift movement or a standard-action multiple attack (Travel Devotion, Tome of Battle movement maneuvers, Greater Manyshot, etc) and you're good to go.

If you want a more snipery version, look for feats, classes, and items that improve your Spot or reduce the penalties for Spotting over a distance. You'll have plenty of range even without really trying to gain more; the biggest problem in the RAW is seeing things from far enough way to make use of the range. I would probably go Ranger as the base class on this one; there's a lot of useful spells in the Spell Compendium that can make this work better, and you need the skills. That said, you'll also be hurting for decent damage and taking some to-hit penalties to shoot things down at range; it may be worth adding 4 or so levels of Fighter to get Ranged Weapon Mastery (only do this if you can't find a more useful prestige class to take, however. The feat's not good enough to justify Fighter over most things.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-22, 05:55 PM
Okay, another question on different class. How might one best go about doing an archer? Straight scout? PrC and fighter? What feats would you choose?

Scout4/Ranger16 with Swift Hunter feat and Improved Multishot.

Edit: Curse you, Ninjas! Lag may have gotten the better of me this time, but you will rue the day, and rue it hard :smallbiggrin:

Bluebeard
2009-04-22, 06:07 PM
Swift Hunter can be a bit tricky for that stretch before Greater Manyshot.
Scout 3/Ranger 6 gets Greater Manyshot earliest and at least cost.
Travel Devotion can be picked up at low levels and retrained at 9th.

Other than Scout and Rogue builds for the bonus damage dice, archery doesn't have many quality options in 3.5.
If you look in 3.0 sources, you'll have better luck. (Order of the Bow Initiate from Sword and Fist, Peerless Archer from Silver Marches. Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild is okay, but has no built-in damage source.)

[edit:]

And, as usual, casters do it better.

Arcane Trickster is pretty simple: +5d6 SA and 10/10 CL (but only 5/10 BA).
Unseen Seer from Complete Mage gives Rogue or Scout/Wizards +4d6 Sneak attack or Skirmish, +10 CL and 7.5 BA. Also, it gives access to Hunter's Eye from the PHB2 -- a Swift-cast 1-round Ranger spell from the PHB2 that increases Sneak Attack damage at a respectable rate.
Abjurant Champion (also CMage) gives 5/5 BAB, Arcane Strike with ranged attacks and a slew of defensive bonuses. For Fighter/Wizards, it's the tops.
Knowledge Devotion (CChamp) turns the Knowledge skills on the Wizard list and the skill points of most sneak attackers into attack and damage bonuses. It's kind of important.

Clerics with Holy Warrior (CChamp) and Zen Archery (CWar) can be absolute beasts. The Elf Domain helps meet feat requirements.

And for non-casters, Assassin does good things and continues full Sneak Attack progression.

For feats, I like Woodland Archer from Races of the Wild and the Ranged Combat Maneuver feats from Complete Warrior. The latter group isn't particularly good, but they make archery more interesting.

[edit 2:]
Spell Compendium and Champions of Ruin have some decent Ranger archery spells. In case you're looking for them.

aivanther
2009-04-22, 09:49 PM
This character is starting at level 1, which would be the best way to start (ranger or scout)?

Bluebeard
2009-04-22, 10:09 PM
Scout has more skill points. And has more level 1 damage output.
Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout 2/Ranger 4/Scout X is usually the way I arrange it.
Grabbing Travel Devotion at level 3, if possible.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-22, 11:27 PM
Scout has more skill points. And has more level 1 damage output.
Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout 2/Ranger 4/Scout X is usually the way I arrange it.
Grabbing Travel Devotion at level 3, if possible.Why not 6? Scout 3/Ranger X/Scout 1 doesn't get an iterative until 7(granted, Haste becomes common right before that). And since Scout 3/Ranger 6 gets Greater Manyshot at 9, it essentially only matters for 2 levels.

Bluebeard
2009-04-22, 11:43 PM
Why not 6? Scout 3/Ranger X/Scout 1 doesn't get an iterative until 7(granted, Haste becomes common right before that). And since Scout 3/Ranger 6 gets Greater Manyshot at 9, it essentially only matters for 2 levels.

At level 3 the character has Rapid Shot. At level 5 the Wizard has Haste.
Level 6 is the first practical chance for Swift Hunter.
I don't like using a feat for a 1/day ability, but the difference in damage output with and without TD is pretty huge until level 9.