G6+1: Re-Imagining E6 and D&D (Updated with Fighter Class v0.1)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/G61.png

*Re-Imagining E6 and D&D*


*****

Anyone not living under a rock these past 30 odd years knows what D&D is. Whether or not you like the game is irrelevant: D&D is a game that has revolutionized the RPG scene, and has the largest fan base of any of the RPGs on the market.

However, D&D is far from perfect. At higher levels, the discrepancy between magic-users and mundane classes becomes astronomical, and certain options are almost always better than others. It is a game that is easy to optimize, and this can shatter a campaign faster than almost anything else.

Which is where E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323) steps in. E6 is a variant of traditional D&D where the highest level a character can reach is level six. The reason for this is that, at higher levels, D&D steps away from being a gritty fantasy RPG and travels into the realms of wuxia and superhero style fantasy. E6 aims at hitting the sweet-spot of D&D for a rousing yet gritty game where, even at the highest levels, a horde of angry peasants isn't something to shrug off.

Yet, like its predecessor, E6 has its own problems. There are so few abilities gained over the first six levels that leveling can feel unsatisfying or even downright dull. Characters lack options, and specializations such as Prestige Classes are almost unheard of.

Thus, G6. Named G6 because of its creator, Gideon_Gideonson (also known as Djinn_in_Tonic), and its inspiration, E6, it aims at revamping the base classes into interesting, flavorful, and ability filled classes, while not losing the gritty fantasy feel. Characters gain abilities at every level, giving them new options all the time. The ability to take a Prestige Class within those six levels becomes available, and the consistent class formatting allows for easy customization and class creation if the idea you have doesn't fit an existing framework.

With that, I present G6, and open it up to the community. This is an unfinished project, and any and all help is welcome. While your ideas might not necessarily make it in (and those whose ideas are incorporated will receive due credit), every bit of input and inspiration will be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes, and I hope you enjoy the results!

-Gideon Gideonson, a.k.a. The Djinn


*****

The above was first posted almost exactly a year ago, and, since then, G6 has gone through a variety of changes, and D&D 4e has both become increasingly popular and introduced a bunch of new and interesting ideas in the realm of game design. As a result, G6 has morphed into what is now hesitantly called G6+1 (Although G7 makes more sense, it is still based on G6+1), a seven level variation drawing heavily on both 3.5 and 4e game design to hopefully create a fun, fluid, and versatile game. It is still largely in the early stages, existing as only G6 and a few new documents on my hard-drive, but I hope to eventually see it realized.

Given the support that G6 seemed to have on this forum, I'm going to be posting up ideas and thoughts for G6+1 as they come to me and getting the input from the people who, hopefully, may eventually end up playing the game. The ideal end result is a complete system that a large number of people have helped to forge into something effective and fun, and one that will see play both at the table and over the Internet.


*****

At this point in time I have no time to type up any specifics, but here are some distinguishing points of G6+1 at this point in time:

--Ability Packed Classes: G6+1 has only seven levels, but each level will grant at least one unique ability, most likely two. This eliminates the dead level problem, granting new and useful things with every improvement.
--Powers: Like 4e, G6+1 uses At-Wills and Encounter powers, along with something called "Focus" powers. Focus powers require something very similiar to Psionic Focus to use, allowing them to be regained during an encounter at the expense of an action. Focus can be expended to fuel any Focus power, so these function spontaneously--you simply choose which one you need at the time you use it.
--Variety: Classes will have a large selection of At-Will and Focus powers, allowing for more basic options than either 3.5 or 4e. Spellcasters, for example, may get as many as six unique At-Will powers. This should serve to keep the game strategic and interesting even when your more powerful options are used up.
--New Weapon Mechanics: As a martial character, many of your powers (especially At-Will powers) will change based on the weapon you wield. For balance purposes, damage is directly dependent on skill with the weapon, not on the weapon itself. The differences come from the powers granted and the relevant ability scores. An archer will focus on Dexterity and Wisdom to make herself better with her weapon, a rapier-wielding swashbuckler on Dexterity and Intelligence or Charisma, and a greataxe swinging barbarian on Strength and Constitution. Each may deal roughly the same damage (given an equal skill level), but each has a drastically different fighting style.
--Standardized Class Format: Like 4e, every class follows the same basic patterns, making creating your own material a more specific science, rather than the extreme hit-or-miss found in 3.5.
--Community Developed: Hopefully, community input will play a large part in forging G6+1, allowing it to constantly update and improve itself with new ideas and play-testing until a perfect balance is reached.


*****

That's all for know, but keep an eye here...weapon previews will be up shortly for consideration!

[Oslecamo]

And again I must ask, why do you bother with having classes if they all work the same way?

If everybody uses the same mechanics, then just pack them all togheter and let the players pick whatever powers they want.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

For the same reason a rogue is different from a fighter or a scout or a ranger or a swashbuckler or a monk. All those classes use the same mechanic: Hit it until it stops moving using basic attacks...yet all are very obviously different classes, with very different feels.

Classes still have independent types of powers--martial classes derive most of their from their weapon choice, while spellcasters will have actual spells. These may function in the same manner, but the effects will vary greatly. No melee attack will duplicate an illusion spell, for example.

Aside from that, the class abilities will make significant differences in the play styles of each class...much like they do in D&D 3.5.

The reason for the similarity in function is twofold: firstly, it keeps the rules simple, and keeps the DM sane. Secondly, it keeps balance tighter, for which I'm willing to sacrifice a small amount of independence.

As for the classes following the same pattern, that's only in terms of when they gain abilities and how many they gain. There's nothing more to it than that. I'm just ensuring that a fighter and a wizard have the same net gain each level, so that neither truly outshines the other at any point in time.

If you disagree, that's perfectly fine, and you're welcome to pick out the individual aspects of each class and assemble a classless system, but that's something that I will NOT be doing, as I feel it caters to readily to cherry-picking key abilities and generally power-gaming. Not that it promotes these actions, but rather that it makes them easier...something I'd like to avoid.

[Pronounceable]

Yay and hurray. Nothing much else to say at this point. Can't really comment on a promo. Except, of course:
-7? Ohnoes, you've changed it, now it's RUINED!!! Hyperbole aside, why? 6 is awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKfY6kapyBY).
-Dailies?

And once again, yay.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

There will be no dailies. I've ditched them in favor of Focus and Encounter powers, to allow more fluidity between encounters: the 8 hour rest in the middle of a dungeon is a thing of the past, and combatants are at their full potential at the beginning of each fight. Possibly Prestige classes may grant a daily or two, but I'm not sure at this juncture.

[Oslecamo]

Eeeerrr, didn't you said you wanted to make it gritty? How can it be gritty if no battle deals lasting damage and if you never have any reason to hold back your power?

The more you talk about this new variation the more I prefer the old E6.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I suppose my terminology was off...by full potential, I meant in terms of powers available, not in terms of hit points remaining. We'll see exactly how gritty it'll turn out, but I think the low number of hit points will keep each combat threatening, even if you have all your powers remaining.

As for preferring E6, well, that's your decision. May I ask for a chance to actually post up some stuff before you make the call though? Give me a day or two and I should have up at least a rudimentary form of both the Fighter and the Wizard.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here are the first three Wizard At-Wills I have drafted. Like 4e powers, they are fairly basic (and use roughly the same format...for the moment, at least), although I have tried to give them some decent variety. Additionally, all spell At-Wills will have both a utility effect and a hit effect, allowing some of our old favorites to still see use in a game.

Opinions?


Arcane Jaunt -- Wizard At-Will
The forces of universal order bend to your will, distorting the fabric of
reality and transporting your target through space itself…sometimes
with debilitating side effects.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Conjuration, Psychic, Teleportation
Special: Choose either the utility effect or the hit effect
when casting this spell.
Target (Utility): 1 creature within 5 squares
Target (Hit): 1 creature within 5 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Willpower (or none, if the target is willing)
Utility: Target creature teleports to an empty, non-hazardous square
within 1 square per level of its starting location. You must have line of sight
to both the starting square and the destination square.
Hit: 1d6 + Level + Intelligence modifier Psychic damage, and you
teleport the target to an empty, non-hazardous square within 3 squares
of its starting location. You must have line of sight to both the starting
square and the destination square.


Arcane Flare -- Wizard At-Will
Light blossoms in your outstretched hand, waiting on but a single
word to decide if it will gently glow or explode violently outward.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Evocation, Radiant
Special: Choose either the utility effect or the hit effect
when casting this spell.
Target (Utility): personal
Target (Hit): 1 target within 10 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex (when using the hit effect)
Utility: A sphere of glowing light circles around you for 1 hour,
shedding light equivalent to that of a torch 3 squares in all directions,
plus an additional square per character level. The light may be
extinguished at will as an immediate action.
Hit: 1d8 + Level + Intelligence modifier Radiant damage, and
your target is Dazzled for 1 round.


Mage Hand -- Wizard At-Will
With a simple gesture, you create a phantom hand with which
you can act upon the world at a distance.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Conjuration, Force
Special: Choose either the utility effect or the hit effect
when casting this spell.
Target (Utility): 1 object within 10 squares
Target (Hit): 1 creature within 10 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex (when using the hit effect,
or when using the utility effect on an object within a creature’s
possession)
Utility: You may lift a single object weighing up to 20 pounds per
character level and move it anywhere within 10 squares of you as if it
had a fly speed of 5. As a minor action you may sustain the effect,
maintaining your grasp on the object. As a standard action you may
move the object as if it had a fly speed of 5. You may end the effect
as a free action at any time. Alternatively, you may manipulate a single
object in any way that would be possible with a single hand. Keys may
be turned, levers pulled, or doors opened, so long as the force required
is within the weight limitation.
Hit: 1d8 + Level + Intelligence modifier Force damage, and you
may slide the target up to 2 squares.


Phantom Servant -- Wizard At-Will
A small wisp of milky smoke quickly coalesces into an indeterminate
shape, forming a phantom servant eager to do your bidding or fight
at your side.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Conjuration, Force
Special: Choose either the utility effect or the hit effect
when casting this spell.
Target (Utility): 1 empty square within 8 squares
Target (Hit): 1 empty square within 8 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Armor Class (special; see the hit effect
for more detail)
Utility: You conjure a servile force to your side for a duration of
1 hour, up to a maximum number of servants equal to your level. During
this time each servant can do the work of a single adult human, although
their skills are basic and they are limited to simple actions. The servants
can clean, cook a simple meal, do rough construction, dig a ditch, or help
in a workshop, but they lack the fine motor control and mental abilities
necessary to pick locks, disable traps, perform complex craftsmanship,
or do anything that requires rational thought.
Hit: You conjure an aggressive phantom soldier in an empty
square anywhere within range. You may immediately make an
Intelligence vs. Armor Class attack against any target adjacent to the
phantom, dealing 1d6 + Level + Intelligence modifier Force damage
on a successful hit. The phantom continues to occupy that square, and
may make Opportunity Attacks with the same attack and damage against
targets leaving or passing through its threatened area (the phantom has
a reach of 1 square). At the beginning of your next turn, the phantom
fades out of existence.


Incite Flame -- Wizard At-Will
Your intense focus and inner fire burst forth into the outside world,
emerging as a roaring inferno.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Evocation, Fire
Special: Choose either the utility effect or the hit effect
when casting this spell.
Target (Utility): 1 object within 8 squares
Target (Hit): A 1 square radius burst centered on a square
within 8 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex (when using the hit effect,
or when using the utility effect on an object within a creature’s
possession)
Utility: The target object begins to smolder, bursting into flames
after a number of rounds determined by the object’s composition. As
a minor action you may sustain the effect, allowing for less combustible
objects to be ignited. If the object in question exceeds a single square in
size, only a single square of it per character level ignites. This area may
not cover the entire object, but, once the target has ignited, the fire may
spread as normal. Dry leaves, cloth, kindling, paper, and other easily
flammable objects burn in a single round. Damp or living leaves, damp
cloth, animal hides, sizeable firewood, and hardwood will ignite on the
second round. Most saplings, damp firewood, wooden houses, or logs
will ignite on the third round, and the forth round is sufficient to ignite
living oak trees, damp logs, and other such substances. Alternatively,
this spell may be used to heat up water, ice, metal, or other materials.
A single round is sufficient to comfortable warm water or metal, and
will melt thin ice. A second round will cause water to simmer. A third
round will boil water and melt most natural ice. A forth round will turn
water into steam almost instantly, melt small quantities of supernatural
ice, and make most common metals turn red with heat. Continuing on
will further heat and later melt metals, and melt continually larger amounts
of ice or snow.
Hit: 2d6 + Level Fire damage to all creatures within the burst.

[erikun]

One question: Why? Yeah, it is a bit of a silly question - Why not? after all - but it is something I am curious about. Do you think that G6 would work better redone 4e style? That having a "4e version" of the game would be good for people looking for something slightly different? Or just looking at the challange of something new?


Well, let's take a look at the wizard spells you're prepared for today. :smallbiggrin:

Arcane Jaunt is, well, wow. Teleportation is powerful, especially when you can dump an enemy into flanking with your rogue, or immediately get yourself out of trouble - just look at the Eladrin's Fey Step in 4e. This spell gets the whole party across and 20' gap, up any 20' cliff, out of any bonds, and works on enemies! While this may be the standard power level you'd like in the new game, somehow I think it may be a bit stronger than you'd intentioned.

Right off hand, even if you removed the damage component, I'd think this as a fair 5th level spell - That's some impressive versitality for an at-will. Possibly even a level 1 encounter, if you'd prefer something like this at lower level.

Minor points: Conjuration? And given that it bodily moves someone, I'd think Fortitude would be more appropriate. Here's what I'd recommend for changes.


Arcane Jaunt -- Wizard At-Will
The forces of universal order bend to your will, distorting the fabric of
reality and transporting your target through space itself…sometimes
with debilitating side effects.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Teleportation
Target: 1 creature within 5 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Utility: Target creature teleports to an empty, non-hazardous square
within 1 square per level of its starting location. You must have line of sight
to both the starting square and the destination square.
Hit: You teleport the target to an empty, non-hazardous square within 4 squares of its starting location, and the target grants combat advantage until the end of its turn. You must have line of sight to both the starting square and the destination square.
Special: You may use this power against a willing target. If so, no attack roll is required, and the target does not grant combat advantage as a result.

Note: Or perhaps it would be more interesting if they still granted combat advantage? It's an at-will teleportation, after all; it probably isn't a smooth ride.


Arcane Flare is an interesting one; I think that the utility part might be more interesting if it could be moved away from the caster, as in Dancing Lights/Light from 3.5e. Then again, perhaps that's just me asking for too much. :smallbiggrin:

Also, modified it to attack Will; you're magically trying to blind them, after all. Plus, having several spells that attack different defenses is one of the perks for the 4e wizard.

Also, I'll assume you have an idea as to what Dazzled does?


Arcane Flare -- Wizard At-Will
Light blossoms in your outstretched hand, waiting on but a single
word to decide if it will gently glow or explode violently outward.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Evocation, Radiant
Special: As a standard action, you may create an Arcane Flare. The flare sheds light equivalent to that of a torch 3 squares in all directions, plus an additional square per character level. The light may be extinguished at will as an immediate action, and is extinguished when the caster is unconcious.
You may only have one Arcane Flare active at a time. Using the flare as an attack ends the effect.
Target: 1 target within 10 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 1d8 + Level + Intelligence modifier Radiant damage, and
your target is Dazzled for 1 round.


Mage Hand - I'll keep this simple. A hand that can only lift 20 pounds probably won't be shoving people around for 10' at a time. :smalltongue: I would drop the forced movement to 1, myself.

Phantom Servant is interesting, and I can see what you're doing. The only problem is that its utility is almost directly superior to Mage Hand, as is the attack, unless you need forced movement. It would probably work well as an Encounter or Focus, though.

PS. I forgot this part with Arcane Flare, but it is rather silly to have a 1-hour duration for an at-will. They can just renew it, after all. :smalltongue:

Incite Flame is wordy, but nice. Maybe a bit too much, though; the 4e Wizard's Scorching Blast won't destroy an archer's wooden bow, or a ranger's leather armor, or turn a shambling mound into a fire elemental. I'm not sure why you opted for 2d6+lv this time, rather than 1d6+lv+INT with the others. Yes, I realize it is a bit less damage, but even the highest 3.5e games didn't see INT values over 30. (+10 bonus) I'd be surprised to see higher than 20 INT in this one, making it a difference between 1d6+13 vs. 2d6+7. A difference, yes, although not a big one.

Oh yeah, and I got lazy with re-writing the other three at-wills. They looked good anyways. :smallwink:

[Pronounceable]

This enforced duality in "spells" is awesome. As in how the hell haven't I thought of this before awesome.
(Don't bother writing Special: since all of them have it.)

What's up at the hp front? The listed damages are rather meaningless as is. And how about defenses? And number of feats available at level x? And etc? I think it'd be better if you put out the basic class and level scheme before cooking up more abilities.


Onwards: Not every offensive spell has to deal damage, and would be much better if they didn't imo. Words are important, and making Hit into Offensive would serve to reinforce that idea. Especially for the likes of Hold Person, Sleep and Dominate when they come around. (Coming to that, how are those gonna be used utilitively?)
(You aren't getting rid of all saveorxes do you?)

Is the full extent of utilities in description necessary? Can't the DM be trusted to handle insignificant details (like rounds to ignite X)?

The effects seem to be forcing one to use a grid. That's something I can live without. Changing square back to 5 feet (or something in SI which'd kick 7 kinds of ass, though that might be asking for too much) would be enough to make me happier. And I know for a fact
shedding light equivalent to that of a torch 3 squares in all directions is not a square spell effect (or do I?).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Erikun, thanks for the critique/comments! I'll get to them shortly (you wrote a lot, and I want to respond properly).


This enforced duality in "spells" is awesome. As in how the hell haven't I thought of this before awesome.
(Don't bother writing Special: since all of them have it.)

It's listed as Special since spells will have the same basic formatting as all other powers, and so it's special when compared to the others. It may eventually be supplanted by the "Spell" keyword. Also, thanks! :smallbiggrin:


What's up at the hp front? The listed damages are rather meaningless as is. And how about defenses? And number of feats available at level x? And etc? I think it'd be better if you put out the basic class and level scheme before cooking up more abilities.

True that. I'm currently working on all of these as we speak, actually...getting the exact balance between melee and ranged and martial/spellcasters is hard though, so it may be a while before it's finalized.



Onwards: Not every offensive spell has to deal damage, and would be much better if they didn't imo. Words are important, and making Hit into Offensive would serve to reinforce that idea. Especially for the likes of Hold Person, Sleep and Dominate when they come around. (Coming to that, how are those gonna be used utilitively?)
(You aren't getting rid of all saveorxes do you?)

Save or Blanks will most likely stick around, only in a slightly different form (continuing saves, most likely...save each round, although not just the 50% chance 4e has). I've been thinking save DCs are equal to 10 + the relevant ability modifier, and saves are d20 + the relevant ability modifier. Thus the weak-willed -1 Wis +0 Cha guard is at a flat d20 roll to hit the expert Wizards DC 15 save. It may take him a while...and that's if he's got no penalty to the roll.

True on the damage front, but I sort of like the constant damage angle...it may vanish though, if some spell powers prove potent enough.

I've also toyed around with the idea that Encounter spells (or which Hold Person, Sleep, Dominate, and most Save or Blank spells will be) don't have utility uses, as such powerful spells are learned for a single effect, and, as you'll only get 1 use, it had better be the one you want.

Is the full extent of utilities in description necessary? Can't the DM be trusted to handle insignificant details (like rounds to ignite X)?


The effects seem to be forcing one to use a grid. That's something I can live without. Changing square back to 5 feet (or something in SI which'd kick 7 kinds of ass, though that might be asking for too much) would be enough to make me happier. And I know for a fact is not a square spell effect (or do I?).

Good. I went with squares because I felt 4e players might be used to them, and I'm trying to cater to everyone, but I personally prefer feet measures. I'll change that back. SI I'm just not comfortable enough with to use in a system, although I'll agree it would be pretty awesome. I'm just not a good enough judge of metric distance...

[erikun]

And I know for a fact is not a square spell effect (or do I?).
Didn't you know? 4e warped the dimension of reality, so that a square is now a circle. :smallwink:

And yeah, while I kind of prefer feet over squares, I think that either will work at this point. The difference is the same mechanically, whether you say "3 squares" or "15 feet" - or "6 meters" - an so can be changed later to reflect whichever terminology is desired. Although I'm thinking DiT is trying to model this around 4e.

On the other hand, spacing in "squares" translated into hexes quite nicely. :smallwink: (It rounds your cubes off, too.)

<edit>
And it looks like he just said pretty much that. Darn you, Djinn-Ninja!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One question: Why? Yeah, it is a bit of a silly question - Why not? after all - but it is something I am curious about. Do you think that G6 would work better redone 4e style? That having a "4e version" of the game would be good for people looking for something slightly different? Or just looking at the challange of something new?

Why not indeed? I happen to like many aspects of 4e (balance, variety of differing basic attacks, attacking different defenses) which I had been trying to accomplish through different means in the first iteration of G6, and I was never really happy with the results. Seeing it as a 3.5/4e/E6/something else hybrid appeals to me more. Also, it's a challenge. I can't resist a challenge.



Arcane Jaunt is, well, wow. Teleportation is powerful, especially when you can dump an enemy into flanking with your rogue, or immediately get yourself out of trouble - just look at the Eladrin's Fey Step in 4e. This spell gets the whole party across and 20' gap, up any 20' cliff, out of any bonds, and works on enemies! While this may be the standard power level you'd like in the new game, somehow I think it may be a bit stronger than you'd intentioned.

Yep. I like power...and with only 7 levels to work with, it better come fast. That said, you may be right...it might be a little TO powerful. I'll consider it.


Right off hand, even if you removed the damage component, I'd think this as a fair 5th level spell - That's some impressive versitality for an at-will. Possibly even a level 1 encounter, if you'd prefer something like this at lower level.

A 5th level spell? Nope...every power (with the exception of the possible dailies) will be available at level 1...you just get more as you level up. The damage increase and the save DCs (if applicable) show the increasing power. Why, you ask? Multiclassing. It makes it easier and still effective, no matter the level you branch out.


Minor points: Conjuration? And given that it bodily moves someone, I'd think Fortitude would be more appropriate. Here's what I'd recommend for changes.

Conjuration, because I want to shrink the number of schools. Transmutation can, largely, be covered by Enchantment, so it will be. A few concessions, however, will have to be made.



Arcane Jaunt -- Wizard At-Will
The forces of universal order bend to your will, distorting the fabric of
reality and transporting your target through space itself…sometimes
with debilitating side effects.
Standard Action -- Arcane, Teleportation
Target: 1 creature within 5 squares
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Utility: Target creature teleports to an empty, non-hazardous square
within 1 square per level of its starting location. You must have line of sight
to both the starting square and the destination square.
Hit: You teleport the target to an empty, non-hazardous square within 4 squares of its starting location, and the target grants combat advantage until the end of its turn. You must have line of sight to both the starting square and the destination square.
Special: You may use this power against a willing target. If so, no attack roll is required, and the target does not grant combat advantage as a result.

Note: Or perhaps it would be more interesting if they still granted combat advantage? It's an at-will teleportation, after all; it probably isn't a smooth ride.


I like the lack of damage, and the Combat Advantage effect replacing it...this may be snatched.


Arcane Flare is an interesting one; I think that the utility part might be more interesting if it could be moved away from the caster, as in Dancing Lights/Light from 3.5e. Then again, perhaps that's just me asking for too much. :smallbiggrin:

Moving the effect may well exist. I'm not going to quote your revision, but I'll say this: I do like the limit on lights you have, but I dislike the change to either having one or attacking. At-Wills should be that...I should be able to have a light around me, and still zap people with it.


Mage Hand - I'll keep this simple. A hand that can only lift 20 pounds probably won't be shoving people around for 10' at a time. :smalltongue: I would drop the forced movement to 1, myself.

Shift 2 for power balance with other things, mate! As for the actual physics...fah! A pox upon you! :smallbiggrin:


Phantom Servant is interesting, and I can see what you're doing. The only problem is that its utility is almost directly superior to Mage Hand, as is the attack, unless you need forced movement. It would probably work well as an Encounter or Focus, though.

...crap. The first part should definitely have a clause saying that the phantoms will refrain from taking any potentially harmful action (opening unknown doors in dungeons, testing for traps, etc) and increase the casting time. It's supposed to be mundane help, not an adventuring tool. And that's the idea...it's better, unless you NEED the effect Mage Hand gives. The effect you need is ALWAYS the better one. So, if you want the option to push foes around, Mage Hand is your winner.

Also, the phantom will be able to be destroyed in the revised version...1 hit, all defenses 10, as a minion.


Incite Flame is wordy, but nice. Maybe a bit too much, though; the 4e Wizard's Scorching Blast won't destroy an archer's wooden bow, or a ranger's leather armor, or turn a shambling mound into a fire elemental. I'm not sure why you opted for 2d6+lv this time, rather than 1d6+lv+INT with the others. Yes, I realize it is a bit less damage, but even the highest 3.5e games didn't see INT values over 30. (+10 bonus) I'd be surprised to see higher than 20 INT in this one, making it a difference between 1d6+13 vs. 2d6+7. A difference, yes, although not a big one.

The damage difference comes from the area...1d6+13 is 16.5 to a single target, 2d6+7 is 14 to up to 10 targets. Hence the change.

As for the beginning, yeah. It's true. Also, I find 4e Wizards to be...well...lacking in everything a Wizard should do. If a fire mage walks into my thatched village, I should be WORRIED, dammit! He should damn well be able to put the torch to everything...it's what he specializes in! So it may be a little strong, but the extended time to do so, in my mind, balances it out. At least before the eventual playtest, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

A 5th level spell? Nope...every power (with the exception of the possible dailies) will be available at level 1...you just get more as you level up. The damage increase and the save DCs (if applicable) show the increasing power. Why, you ask? Multiclassing. It makes it easier and still effective, no matter the level you branch out.

AHA! That does change the way I'll be looking at things. I had assumed something closer to 4e, where you gradually get strong attacks the longer you stayed in the class. I will need to keep that in mind for the future.

Perhaps make Phantom Servant a presdigitation effect for its utility? And as its attack, create difficult terrain in all surrounding squares - kind of like every bit of junk and rubble leaping up to get in your way. Giving things a way to "kill" it is a good idea also.

And yeah, my comments on Incite Flame particularly was under the assumption that it would be more appropriate at level 2 or 3 - about the same time you'd have access to Heat Metal in 3e. Like I said, it certainly looks like a fun skill. :smallbiggrin:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Basic Class Concepts (As the currently stand in my head)

--7 levels
--Between 3 and 5 At-Wills, depending on Weapon Proficiency.
--Extra At-Wills gained from your weapon choice and relative skill with said weapon. This makes up for martial characters lower number of At-Wills.
--Low Hp...current estimates put hp around 25-30 at level 1, maxing out at around 50-60. So between 3 and 5 hits from something of an equal level will take you out. Low level things will be a threat, just not as much of one.
--Two class abilities per level, getting slightly stronger as you progress.
--All powers available at level 1 to aid multiclassing...possible strong dailies later on. Powers increase in damage/power as you progress in level.
--Fairly close defenses/hit bonuses. While a melee character may specialize in melee, the spellcaster will still have a chance to hit something with his/her staff...maybe a poor chance (a level 1 spellcaster won't really be hitting a level 7 fighter much), but a chance regardless. A 2-4 point advantage will be about the range.

[Pronounceable]

Tangent: Tiered feats of G6 were inexplicably addictive. I don't see the same addictivicity in powers here.
...

Hmm. I still think 6 levels was good enough (and 6 is among the best numbers ever). Not that it's much of a change, but why'd you go for 7 again?

3-5 hits sound fine.

14 ability per class. 3-5 at wills, then most of those will be passive.

I wouldn't care if wizard1 (or even wizard7 for that matter) can't ever hit fighter7 in melee. He'll have enough at wills to attack other defenses (I'm assuming everyone can attack every defense), so a sizable gap between a class's weak attack and another's strong defense is unimportant. Just make sure strong offense against weak defense isn't impossibly overwhelming and the rest is peachy.
...

Further: All at wills available to everyone is a bit of a stretch. Why can a (starting) scum of the earth shoot a magic missile as good as a (starting) wizard? Or a wizard swing a halberd as able as any fighter? Unless you build intricate power chains (which'd be needlessly complicated), it'd be better to assign a few power keywords to each class. (wizard: arcane. fighter: melee, ranged, defence. rogue: sneak, skill, ranged, defence. cleric: heal, buff, melee. Or something)

Also at wills being available on every level, plus being tied into PC level means someone taking a new one at lv7 will be as good at it as someone who's been using that since day one. Something should be done about that...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Tangent: Tiered feats of G6 were inexplicably addictive. I don't see the same addictivicity in powers here.

Feats may still be tiered...they just won't represent basic attack options any more. So that may still be around.


Hmm. I still think 6 levels was good enough (and 6 is among the best numbers ever). Not that it's much of a change, but why'd you go for 7 again?

It's simple. 7 allows me a smoother progression for ability boosts and improving class features, as I have a 1, 3, 5, 7 space and a 2, 4, 6 space. Also, it divides up into 4e like tiers (which isn't needed, but may be used). 1-3, 4-6, and the legendary level 7.


14 ability per class. 3-5 at wills, then most of those will be passive.

True. Or very situational. But that may not be a problem...we'll see as we go.


Further: All at wills available to everyone is a bit of a stretch. Why can a (starting) scum of the earth shoot a magic missile as good as a (starting) wizard? Or a wizard swing a halberd as able as any fighter? Unless you build intricate power chains (which'd be needlessly complicated), it'd be better to assign a few power keywords to each class. (wizard: arcane. fighter: melee, ranged, defence. rogue: sneak, skill, ranged, defence. cleric: heal, buff, melee. Or something)

You misunderstand. All WIZARD powers will be available to all WIZARDS at level 1...not to everyone. :smallbiggrin:


Also at wills being available on every level, plus being tied into PC level means someone taking a new one at lv7 will be as good at it as someone who's been using that since day one. Something should be done about that...

I may make the Level bonus to damage equal to (Your class level taking the point where you multiclassed to be level 1). So a Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Fighter 5 will fight as a level 7 fighter and cast as a level 6 Wizard (although he'll know far fewer spells then said Wizard). That keeps you competitive, but doesn't make you AS powerful.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Updates on some system ideas, including a change from the current 4e defenses mechanic. Rather than having 3 defenses so close together, I'm thinking that it will introduce more variety to have each ability able to be targeted. After all, that immensely obese mage is still easy to catch with a fireball, no matter how smart he may be.

I've also mapped out the hit chances on everything, so that given the default ability array I have planned (16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11...you're heroes, after all, so you'll get an elite array) each defense is still useful (a range of 5 means a 25% difference in accuracy between a strong defense and a weak defense).


*****

Ability Scores: G7 uses six Ability Scores like its predecessors, but its scores are slightly different. A character has the following abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wits, and Presence. Strength represents bodily strength and physical force, Dexterity represents speed and evasiveness, Constitution represents physical endurance and bodily health, Intelligence represents logical ability and intellectual strength, Wits represents quickness of thought and perception, and Presence represents emotional might and strength of personality.

Ability Defenses: A major mechanic in G7 is the ability to attack Ability Defenses, allowing for a wider variety of effects. Ability Defenses are, like all things in G7, represented by a simple formula: you calculate your Ability Defense for a given ability score by taking your score in that ability and adding a value to it equal to your Character Level. Thus, a 3rd level Fighter with a Strength score of 15 has a Strength Defense of 18, while a 7th level Wizard with a Strength score of 11 also has a Strength Defense of 18.

Ability Value: To determine if your attack lands, you need to first determine your Ability Value (the number you add to your d20 when trying to meet or exceed your target’s defenses). As each character has six separate Ability Defenses, each character also has six separate Ability Values, each keyed to a separate ability score. The ability score determining the attack’s success is detailed under the description of each individual attack power, but the general formula remains the same: you calculate your Ability Value for a given ability score by taking your modifier in that ability and adding a value to it equal to your Character Level. Thus, a 3rd level Fighter with a Strength score of 15 has a Strength Value of +5, while a 7th level Wizard with a Strength score of 11 has a Strength Value of +7.

Attacking Tips (Currently for Player vs. Player only): G7 is designed assuming that most characters will be built towards their respective strengths, and, as such, defenses are calculated assuming most attacks will be made with an Ability Value equal to Character Level + 3. Even this bonus, however, requires a roll of a 13 to successfully land an attack on your opponent’s highest Ability Defense. Each subsequent -1 in the Ability Value equates to an additional +1 to the minimum roll needed. The worst possible Ability Value, equal to Character Level + 0, will find itself at a 50% chance to hit even the worst Ability Defense of an equal level. As such, it pays to have a variety of attacks available, and to target your opponent’s weaknesses rather than try to overcome them through brute force.

G7 is also built to scale as the characters gain levels. A level 7 hero can still be killed by a group of lower level characters, but only a select few will be able to touch her strong points, as, by level 7, a character’s weakest Ability Defense is at the level of a starting character’s strongest Ability Defense. This keeps weaknesses from becoming overbearing, while still having them contribute greatly to a fight against an opponent of equal skill.

Skills: Skills in G7 are front-loaded, allowing for skilled laborers and artisans who lack the power or experience to truly be called heroes. A first level character may allot her Skill Points as she desires, up a maximum of 8 ranks in any single skill. Each additional level raises this cap by 2, so that a perfectly skilled 7th level character may up to 20 ranks in a skill. As 8 ranks gives enough range for a variety of skill levels, low level characters may still be very adept at their respective skills. Certainly the legendary Wizard has a better grasp of Arcana than an entry-level magus, but that magus may still be an expert in his own right.

Universal Resistance: As heroes grow in power, so to does their ability to survive that which would kill a lesser man. G7 heroes retain this principle, although not in the traditional manner. Rather than gaining additional Hit Points at each level, characters gain Universal Resistance equal to their Character Level. Subtract an amount of damage equal to the character’s Universal Resistance from any and all damage the character takes, unless the damage specifically says otherwise (many cases of environmental damage, such as that received from a full submersion in lava, will override Universal Resistance). No amount of Resistance, however, can completely negate damaging effects: a character always takes at least 1 point of damage from a successful attack.

Specific Resistances: G7 characters may also gain a variety of Resistances against other sorts of damage. These Resistances add to Universal Resistance in any situations where both would take effect, but only against the damage types covered by the Specific Resistance. Armor, for example, provides Martial Resistance. Against any attack that deals Martial damage, a character wearing armor subtracts the sum total of his Universal Resistance and his Martial Resistance from the damage taken. In some cases, only Specific Resistances apply: Universal Resistance does not prevent damage from submersion in lava, but Fire Resistance will negate damage from the same effect. Multiple instances of the same Resistance do not stack; only the best applies.

Damage Types: Martial, Psychic, Fire, Cold, Acid, Lightning, Thunder, Radiant, Necrotic, Force, Poison.

Teamwork and Flanking: Flanking as we know it does not exist in G7, but Teamwork does. For each ally adjacent to the target, you gain a +1 bonus to your Martial Attack Values against that target, up to a maximum bonus of +5 for having six allies all threatening a single target. If you and an ally are on opposite sides of an opponent, you are considered to be Flanking the target (although this grants no specific bonus other than the +1 bonus to Martial Attack Values, some powers and abilities will require you to be Flanking your target).

[erikun]

I was thinking... if all (or most) of the wizard spells are available at level 1, then it would probably be practical to list out all the "classic" wizard spells, to make sure none get missed. Now, not everything needs to be included as-is (I find your version of Mage Hand works as a "Magic Missile" of sorts) but it wouldn't hurt as a starting point.

Leafing through the 3.5e spell list, here's the ones I feel really say "wizard" at low levels.

Detect Magic
Dancing Lights/Light (already represented by Arcane Flare)
Mage Hand (already included)
Prestidigitation (already represented by Phantom Servant)
Shield (could be represented by Phantom Servant, see below)
Sleep/Color Spray
Shocking Grasp/Lightning Bolt
Fireball (already represented by Incite Flame)
Sleet Storm/Hail Storm
Silent Image
Feather Fall
Web/Spider Climb
Silence/Invisibility
Fly/Levitation

As for Shield, I could see it represented by changing Phantom Servant a bit - rather than summoning it into one square, you summon it into your square. It provides a +4 to one defense, and makes Opportunity attacks for you. However, if you take any damage, it dissipates. Makes it different from Mage Hand, and gives the wizard an interesting "melee" attack.

Detect Magic would likely be a wizard class ability, or a freebie at will.

Sleep/Color Spray could be merged together into a single daily/encounter spell. "Motes of light fill an area, dazing those within and drifting them to slumber."

Sleet Storm/Ice Storm could be done as in 4e, although I'm having trouble thinking of a good utility for it. Same for Shocking Grasp/Lightning Bolt.

Web/Spider Climb can be merged into one spell, with Spider Climb being the utility and Web being the attack. Hmm, between this, Arcane Jaunt, and Color Sleep, the wizard will have a number of non-damaging attacks. Interesting. Well, I guess they can't subdue someone easily any other way. :smalltongue:

The rest, I'm not so sure about. Feather Fall would probably be better in a magical item, rather than a spell. 4e now has a number of wizard illusions, if you want a damaging aspect with Silent Image. Silence/Invisibility can be quite powerful, especially if you can choose which to have - give the rogue backstab at the beginning of each fight. Fly/Levitation... could be toned down and put into Mage Hand (Telekinesis?) or possibly a magical pair of shoes (usable 5 minutes/day).

Well, that's all my thoughts for the day. Take them as you will.

[Pronounceable]

It's getting quite less DnDy now (which's a good thing in my book).


I've also mapped out the hit chances on everything, so that given the default ability array I have planned (16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11...you're heroes, after all, so you'll get an elite array) each defense is still useful (a range of 5 means a 25% difference in accuracy between a strong defense and a weak defense).

Ugh. Stat arrays. Which imply point buy. Which is a NOOO (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo) afaic. I utterly despise and loathe point buy, willfully ignoring any arguement to the contrary. Someone less prejudiced might like it based on the very useful result here, but not me.


Ability Scores:

Pretty much what DnD stats are/should've been anyway.


Ability Defenses:

Not good. Low number of saves/defenses is a good thing, and for/ref/wil is a great abstraction that works very well. I'm also wary of stat overload on character sheet. Plus failing those will (presumably) deal hp damage, and I'm not sure just how that'd work with mental stats. It could work if mental defenses are exclusively against saveorx and physical defenses against damage, but why fix what's not broken? I realize f/r/w structure makes Con/Dex/Wit more important, but stat equality isn't that important (unless you do point buy, which I loathe and despise utterly ignoring any and all arguements to the contrary) (plus Str/Int/Pre can optionally apply instead of them, though Int is quite a bit of a stretch).


Attacking Tips (Currently for Player vs. Player only): G7 is designed assuming that most characters will be built towards their respective strengths, and, as such, defenses are calculated assuming most attacks will be made with an Ability Value equal to Character Level + 3. Even this bonus, however, requires a roll of a 13 to successfully land an attack on your opponent’s highest Ability Defense. Each subsequent -1 in the Ability Value equates to an additional +1 to the minimum roll needed. The worst possible Ability Value, equal to Character Level + 0, will find itself at a 50% chance to hit even the worst Ability Defense of an equal level. As such, it pays to have a variety of attacks available, and to target your opponent’s weaknesses rather than try to overcome them through brute force.

Starting on pvp balance seems kinda ominous. And it depends on PCs having same stat array. But math is solid, and its main result is a necessary one.


G7 is also built to scale as the characters gain levels. A level 7 hero can still be killed by a group of lower level characters, but only a select few will be able to touch her strong points, as, by level 7, a character’s weakest Ability Defense is at the level of a starting character’s strongest Ability Defense. This keeps weaknesses from becoming overbearing, while still having them contribute greatly to a fight against an opponent of equal skill.


Again, disregarding my intense loathing of static arrays, good math and necessary results.

Overall: I like the solution, but not the initial conditions.


Skills:

Just remove skill caps of NPCs and be done with it (it's not like that ever stopped a DM from giving 59 blacksmithing ranks to a lv4 guy). As for PCs, good enough.


Universal Resistance:

Wait, now hp is static? Yeah, THAT is what's necessary for a truly gritty system. Though DR per level is new, haven't seen that one before. Usually defenses/saves are increased with level but this might work out. Just don't add too many exceptions.


Specific Resistances:...

Damage Types: Martial, Psychic, Fire, Cold, Acid, Lightning, Thunder, Radiant, Necrotic, Force, Poison.


Uh oh. Even more stats on charsheet. This concept is workable and is a nice addon, but the stuff on the paper is skyrocketing already.


As for "spells that define DnD wizardry", looking at srd I see quite alot actually. Obviously, some are unsuitable for G7 (like Wish). Plus some totally lack the utility angle (Dominate). Anyway, here's stuff that I think has to be included somehow (not necessarily as abilities themselves):

Antimagic Field, Arcane Lock (Gandalf for the president), Arcane Mark, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Burning Hands, Charm X, Color Spray, Dancing Lights (including normal variety), Darkness, Darkvision, Daze, Detect X, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Divination, Dominate, Enervation, Explosive Runes (prepared in the morning), Fear, Featherfall, Finger of Death, Fireball, Ghost Sound, Haste, Hold X, Ice Storm, Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm (flinging flaming rocks at enemies is awesome, no matter power level), Mind Blank, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph, Power Word X, Prestidigitation, Prismatic X, Prot from X, Read Magic, Scorching Ray, Scrying, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Silence, Sleep, Slow, Stoneskin, Summon Monster, Symbol of X, Telekinesis, Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of X, Web and stat buffing spells.

[Tempest Fennac]

How would you handle healing? Thinking about your original E6 thread, I still think giving a set amount of points which some classes can use in a similar way to the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality would be a good idea.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ugh. Stat arrays. Which imply point buy. Which is a NOOO (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo) afaic. I utterly despise and loathe point buy, willfully ignoring any arguement to the contrary. Someone less prejudiced might like it based on the very useful result here, but not me.

Stat arrays. Which imply point buy. True. However, the standard game assumes those stats flat, no point buy. Options will exist for point buy and rolling (probably on a 10 + d6 scale, and maybe on the traditional 4d6 drop 1 [max 16] scale). Those will just adjust the balance more than the standard...obviously.




Not good. Low number of saves/defenses is a good thing, and for/ref/wil is a great abstraction that works very well. I'm also wary of stat overload on character sheet. Plus failing those will (presumably) deal hp damage, and I'm not sure just how that'd work with mental stats. It could work if mental defenses are exclusively against saveorx and physical defenses against damage, but why fix what's not broken? I realize f/r/w structure makes Con/Dex/Wit more important, but stat equality isn't that important (unless you do point buy, which I loathe and despise utterly ignoring any and all arguements to the contrary) (plus Str/Int/Pre can optionally apply instead of them, though Int is quite a bit of a stretch).

Technically I HAVE lowered the number of defenses/saves. Your abilities now FUNCTION as saves, and I have yet to meet the player who can't quickly add their level to a number under 20. This gives me the option to individually tailor effects -- a strong character can still be poisoned, a smart character can still be hit, and a charismatic character can still fail to see through an illusion -- without really increasing the number of stats. Additionally, without this there is at most a 2 point variance between a high defense and a low defense, and that's just a little low for me.



Starting on pvp balance seems kinda ominous. And it depends on PCs having same stat array. But math is solid, and its main result is a necessary one.

Eh. Appropriate monsters will have comparable defenses, so it's rather a moot point, in my opinion.


Just remove skill caps of NPCs and be done with it (it's not like that ever stopped a DM from giving 59 blacksmithing ranks to a lv4 guy). As for PCs, good enough.

...duh. I hadn't thought of that, actually.




Wait, now hp is static? Yeah, THAT is what's necessary for a truly gritty system. Though DR per level is new, haven't seen that one before. Usually defenses/saves are increased with level but this might work out. Just don't add too many exceptions.

Well, defenses increase with level as well, but so does the chance to hit them. This keeps combat about the same duration between combatants of equal skill, barring special tricks. As for exceptions, elemental environmental damage is about it, as well as maybe one or two truly exceptional powers.



Uh oh. Even more stats on charsheet. This concept is workable and is a nice addon, but the stuff on the paper is skyrocketing already.

Really? These are basically Elemental Resistances as they exist in 3.5/4e, which have never seemed like a huge amount of work to me. The Hit Point section will just be written something like the following to make things easier:

Hit Points: X/X, Universal Resistance 5, Martial Resistance 2, Fire Resistance 3



As for "spells that define DnD wizardry", looking at srd I see quite alot actually. Obviously, some are unsuitable for G7 (like Wish). Plus some totally lack the utility angle (Dominate). Anyway, here's stuff that I think has to be included somehow (not necessarily as abilities themselves):

Antimagic Field, Arcane Lock (Gandalf for the president), Arcane Mark, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Burning Hands, Charm X, Color Spray, Dancing Lights (including normal variety), Darkness, Darkvision, Daze, Detect X, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Divination, Dominate, Enervation, Explosive Runes (prepared in the morning), Fear, Featherfall, Finger of Death, Fireball, Ghost Sound, Haste, Hold X, Ice Storm, Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm (flinging flaming rocks at enemies is awesome, no matter power level), Mind Blank, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph, Power Word X, Prestidigitation, Prismatic X, Prot from X, Read Magic, Scorching Ray, Scrying, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Silence, Sleep, Slow, Stoneskin, Summon Monster, Symbol of X, Telekinesis, Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of X, Web and stat buffing spells.

Awesome. This will be VERY helpful, actually. Thanks!

[Yakk]

Ability Defenses: A major mechanic in G7 is the ability to attack Ability Defenses, allowing for a wider variety of effects. Ability Defenses are, like all things in G7, represented by a simple formula: you calculate your Ability Defense for a given ability score by taking your score in that ability and adding a value to it equal to your Character Level. Thus, a 3rd level Fighter with a Strength score of 15 has a Strength Defense of 18, while a 7th level Wizard with a Strength score of 11 also has a Strength Defense of 18.
Note that this makes your attribute very important for defense.

What is worse is that the impact of stores on defense is much larger than on offense.

Even worse is if you add +2 to all attributes, defense scales faster than offense. (which is a sign of a lack of robustness)

...

If you are redoing stats, why split Str and Con? I mean, I know that you can be strong without having huge endurance -- but what fantasy character archtype has that proprty?

...

The Mage Hand at-will: if you want it to be on-par with other abilities like Phantom Servant, you should take inspiration from the Bigby's hand spells.

...

Are you going with 4e "the main way to defeat a target is to deplete it's HP"?

...

The hostile version of Arcane Jaunt teleports further than the non-hostile version. ;) And at level 1, the utility version is nigh useless, barring a companion wanting to teleport through a wall that you can see both sides of, yet the companion cannot cross (ok, so that can be useful -- you can teleport through windows or iron bars).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Note that this makes your attribute very important for defense.

What is worse is that the impact of stores on defense is much larger than on offense.

Yes and yes, although not as much the latter as you'd think. The math works out, and defenses will be fairly easy to fine-tune as the game progresses, so I'll be sticking with it for now.



Even worse is if you add +2 to all attributes, defense scales faster than offense. (which is a sign of a lack of robustness)

Quite simply, I won't be. Level 3 will grant a single score a single point of improvement, Level 5 will do the same, and Level 7 will grant two +1 bonuses to be applied to separate scores. That's the sum total of ability score advancement.


If you are redoing stats, why split Str and Con? I mean, I know that you can be strong without having huge endurance -- but what fantasy character archtype has that proprty?

Because I like the 3/3 split, it's something people are used to, and it allows me to keep independent attacks and defenses for different sorts of attacks...disarming someone, for example, relies on beating their strength, while poison attacks Con.


Are you going with 4e "the main way to defeat a target is to deplete it's HP"?

4e? Barring Wizard's "Win" buttons, this is the 1e to 3.5 way as well. To kill something, you need to...well...kill it. If you're asking about permanent lockdowns and save-or-dies, those probably won't be combat options, due to their overpowering nature if everything uses the same defense system.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And now...preliminary race design. Yes, Halflings are Medium now. It makes things easier...they're a small Medium, but Medium regardless. All base player races will be.

As for the asterisks on certain racial abilities: those are the two abilities you keep if you're a half-breed. You get the asterisk abilities from both parent races, as well as the worse speed and the best senses.

Without further ado...




Dwarf

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 25 feet
Senses: Dwarves have Darkvision.
Skin of Stone: Dwarves add an additional +1 to their Universal Resistance.
Encumbered Speed: Dwarves do not suffer a speed penalty when wearing medium or heavy armor or when encumbered. They do still suffer a speed penalty for being overburdened.
Like a Rock*: Any time a Dwarf would be knocked prone, he is instead treated as unbalanced. Any time a Dwarf is pushed, pulled, or slide, he may negate up to 5 feet of the forced movement.
Iron Gut*: Any time a Dwarf would roll a Constitution Save, he may roll twice and take the best result.
Specialties: Dwarves gain a +2 Racial bonus on Craft and Endurance checks.


Orc

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 30 feet
Senses: Orcs have Low-Light Vision and Scent.
Feral Might*: Orcs deal an additional +1 damage on all Martial and Evocation attacks.
Bloodlust: Orcs gain a +1 bonus to their Offense Value when making a Martial or Evocation attack against a bloodied foe.
Fight Past Death: Orcs may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. They still die when their Hit Point total falls below a negative value equal to their Constitution score.
Primal Instinct*: Any time an Orc would be shaken, he may ignore that effect. Any time an Orc would be frightened or panicked, he is instead shaken (He may not ignore this effect).
Specialties: Orcs gain a +2 Racial bonus on Endurance and Intimidate checks.


Human

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 30 feet
Senses: Humans have no extraordinary senses.
Adaptive Style: Humans gain an additional bonus feat at 1st level.
Able Learner*: Humans gain an additional 2 Skill Points per level.
Sheer Perseverance*: When a Human receives a status condition, he may delay the status effect for 1 round. It immediately takes effect at the beginning of his next turn, and lasts for its original duration.
Determined Soul: When a Human is subject to an effect that allows a saving throw, he may make a save on his first subsequent turn, rather than the second subsequent turn.
Specialties: Humans gain a +2 Racial bonus on Intuition and Resolve checks.


Elf

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 30 feet
Senses: Elves have Low-Light Vision.
Restorative Trance: Instead of sleeping, Elves enter a trance. This is in all respects the same as sleeping, except that the Elf is perfectly aware of his surroundings and retains his Universal Resistance unless surprised. A trance may be ended as an immediate action, although ending a trance early carries penalties similar to those of being woken up (See the section on Rest for more information).
Gentle Tread*: Elves are not slowed by Moderate terrain difficulties, and treat Heavy terrain difficulties as if they were Moderate.
Unearthly Grace: Elves automatically pass all Athletics checks related to balance. Any time an Elf would be unbalanced, he may ignore that effect. Any time an Elf would be knocked prone, he is instead unbalanced (He may not ignore this effect).
Environmental Awareness*: Elves always roll Initiative checks to act in surprise rounds, and are only considered surprised before they have acted. An Elf who goes before the threat is revealed senses something amiss with the situation.
Specialties: Elves gain a +2 Racial bonus to Nature checks and Perception checks.


Halfling

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 25 feet
Senses: Halflings have no extraordinary senses.
Halfling Luck*: Halflings gain a +1 bonus on all Saving Throws.
Hard to Hit: Halflings do not provoke Opportunity Actions for the first threatened square they pass through each round. They still draw Opportunity Actions for withdrawing from combat.
Small Folk: Halflings may move through enemy occupied squares as if they were not occupied, although they still provoke Opportunity Actions for moving through threatened areas if they do so.
Agile Dodge*: Any time a Halfling would roll a Dexterity Save, he may roll twice and take the best result.
Specialties: Halflings gain a +2 Racial bonus to Athletics checks and Stealth checks.

[Zovc]

It might be easier to word Orcs' Primal Instinct like this:

"If at any time an Orc would become panicked or frightened, he may instead become shaken. Any other time an Orc would become shaken, he may ignore it."

I feel like it's a little more streamlined starting from the top, I think the line is drawn more clearly. ("This will make me shaken, nothing else can.") You can probably do something similar with the Elves' Gentle Tread.

While I know (and I'm sure most people get) that Orcs don't ignore every other part of an effect that would have them shaken, someone could make the opposite case the way you have it worded (not sure if my wording is any better in that respect, either.

I do like the simplification of removing sizes, but I also think I'll miss them. Perhaps you can do something like Powerful Build and a smaller alternative (not sure if there is an official one).

How will heavier suits of armor affect slower characters? Will it just be a flat -5ft(/10ft) penalty?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It might be easier to word Orcs' Primal Instinct like this:

"If at any time an Orc would become panicked or frightened, he may instead become shaken. Any other time an Orc would become shaken, he may ignore it."

I feel like it's a little more streamlined starting from the top, I think the line is drawn more clearly. ("This will make me shaken, nothing else can.") You can probably do something similar with the Elves' Gentle Tread.

Good point, and an elegant solution. Consider it yoinked.


While I know (and I'm sure most people get) that Orcs don't ignore every other part of an effect that would have them shaken, someone could make the opposite case the way you have it worded (not sure if my wording is any better in that respect, either.

Another good point. I'll see what I can do.


I do like the simplification of removing sizes, but I also think I'll miss them. Perhaps you can do something like Powerful Build and a smaller alternative (not sure if there is an official one).

Sizes are still around, I just made Halflings and Gnomes a little bigger and expanded the Medium size category a bit to make things run smoother. I'm hesitant to include Powerful Build and the like, because of the fine balance of defenses. It's possible, however, that small races would get a +2 to Dex and a -2 to Strength, with Dex still maxing out at 16. Larger races would get the opposite. Opinions?


How will heavier suits of armor affect slower characters? Will it just be a flat -5ft(/10ft) penalty?

You hit the nail on the head. A flat penalty it is.

[Meek]

I'm intrigued enough despite my utter distaste to 3e that I might actually learn E6 (which even at the time where I DID play 3e and at the time where I was flirting with Pathfinder, was a laughable proposition to myself) just to try to follow along here.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm intrigued enough despite my utter distaste to 3e that I might actually learn E6 (which even at the time where I DID play 3e and at the time where I was flirting with Pathfinder, was a laughable proposition to myself) just to try to follow along here.

Awesome! And there's nothing to learn for E6...it's just D&D 3.5 cut down to the first 6 levels, with, I believe, two optional rules added on. A basic understanding of either 3.5 or 4e and some basics in game design philosophy should be enough to follow what I'm trying to do here. :smallbiggrin:

That said, if you have any questions, comments, ideas, critique, etc, don't hesitate to add it!

[Pronounceable]

Human tastes badass now. I like that. Elves also seem closer to Tolkien somehow. Orcs and halflings nicely convey their core flavor too. Shame about the dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame) though. Alas, nothing can be done about that.

Races not getting stat adjustments works. Leave it in. And you've removed the clutter (big nosed little bags of crap, I'm talking about you).

Being the fascist I am, I won't be playing/allowing nonhuman races. Plus the human here is awesome. But I love this setup (except for the squicky interracial, something I can just pretend is not there).

[lesser_minion]

So far this seems pretty interesting, although some of the crossbreeds seem a little worrying (elf-orcs and dwarf-elves come to mind).

I quite like the removal of stat adjustments - you've managed to convey the fact that some races are better or worse in certain areas without completely destroying concepts that don't fit the stat mods.

The environmental awareness thing could be a little powerful, but I quite like it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So far this seems pretty interesting, although some of the crossbreeds seem a little worrying (elf-orcs and dwarf-elves come to mind).

Agreed. Hence why crossbreeds will be an optional rule left to GM discretion. I could go through and create a table of valid cross-breeds, but that would be a lot of work for little payoff...just run something by your DM if you want to, say, run a Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or Dwarf-Halfling. Some should be allowed, others probably not, but I'm not making that call at this point in time. :smallbiggrin:

[Meek]

I agree with the destruction of racial ability scores. It also removes one major headache math variable from the game – whether or not X race/class combination is under or overpowered compared to another X race/class combination.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I agree with the destruction of racial ability scores. It also removes one major headache math variable from the game – whether or not X race/class combination is under or overpowered compared to another X race/class combination.

Good. I had been worried about that, as many people I talked to (albeit before drafting any races) seemed concerned. Glad to know it works for you.

Before I get out of the groove...any other races that should be included in "Core," if you will? Also, it's at this point (now that a rough outline of the rules and the races has been posted) that I'm going to open the doors to user-generated homebrew (races only, at this point), which we'll take a look at, revise (if necessary), and, quite possibly, include in the final.

[Zovc]

I did feel like the race selection was a bit scarce, I'm glad you're accepting submissions. I'll see if I get any ideas on how to bring more races into this system.

How do you feel about planetouched races? Should you be able to be a half-planetouched?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Half Plane-touched I'm doubtful about...they would probably be Outsiders rather than Humanoids, so crossbreeding might be difficult. That said, half-breeds are up to the DM, so it's a possibility.

So, basically, each vaguely humanoid player race (i.e. all of them) should have options to crossbreed, whether or not it seems likely.

Planetouched themselves, however, I have no problem with, as long as it's done with class, and not "Look at me! I'm a Demon!"

I myself have a draft of Tieflings (or whatever they'll be named) in the works.

[Maroon]

I'd imagine plane-touched characters work like half-breeds. For instance, a Fire Genasi would have these abilties (or something a little more imaginative):

Burning Blood*: Fire Genasi gain a +X bonus to their Offense Value and deal an additional +X damage on all Fire attacks.
Fiery Flesh*: Fire Genasi add an additional +X to their Fire Resistance.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'd imagine plane-touched characters work like half-breeds. For instance, a Fire Genasi would have these abilties (or something a little more imaginative):

Burning Blood*: Fire Genasi gain a +X bonus to their Offense Value and deal an additional +X damage on all Fire attacks.
Fiery Flesh*: Fire Genasi add an additional +X to their Fire Resistance.

Hmmm...possibly. I'll have to give it a little more thought. Plane-touched will be waiting though, as will, I believe, other races. I'd love to get a Beta up and running ASAP, so I'm going to be leaving other races to community work at the moment and pressing on to the system basics, and then the classes.

Also, I'm going to be moving back to the squares instead of distance formula, simply due to the ease of wording things like "occupied square," "enemy's square" etc. Conversions in Hexes, Meters, and Feet will be included for all distances. Take THAT, everyone! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, those using the Metric System get a bit of the shaft...I used 1.5 meters for each square rather than the 1.524 the ratio really is...but it makes the numbers SO much cleaner, and .02 really isn't that big a difference.

Also, a designer's note: Do to the (hopefully) fairly major revision of this work (it's getting farther and farther away from being D&D and heading towards something similiar, yet very new), I'm going to be using slightly different terminology when I need to reference an idea not in the 3.5 OGL. This is to stop Wizard's from, under their new GSL, locking down my project, which they might be able to do if I use their terminology to rewrite their game. Hence Shifting being redefined. This does mean that D&D standards that aren't in the 3.5 SRD will NOT make it into the official final version of G7, although homebrews of them are welcome (hint hint...). If it's a fantasy staple (Warlocks, Knights, etc) then it's not a problem, but I won't be making, for example, the Dragon Shaman, Duskblade, or Genasi. I'd rather be paranoid than have Wizards tell me to stop. :smallbiggrin:

Now, some preliminary movement modes and rules:


*****

Movement

There are many forms of movement available to characters and monsters in G7, from the basic Move Action to the careful Adjust to the supernatural Relocation. All the available movement types are detailed below. Whenever the text refers to squares, players using hexes may substitute hexes, players using the Metric System may substitute meters (each square being 1.5 meters in length, width, and height) and those using Imperial measurements may substitute feet (each square being 5 feet in length, width, and height).

The Basic Move: This is the standard method of locomotion in G7. As a Move Action, a character may move her basic speed in squares in any direction she desires. The character provokes Opportunity Actions any time she leaves a threatened square. Additionally, the character has the option of “splitting” her move action up, allowing her to move both before and after her standard action, so long as her total movement does not exceed her basic speed.

Shifting: Shifting is a special type of movement that does not provoke Opportunity Actions. Unfortunately, its not something a character can do all the time—the only ways a character can Shift is if she Adjusts (see below), if she uses a Class Ability, Feat, or Power that allows her to Shift, or if she is subject to an attack that Shifts her.

Adjusting: Adjusting as a way of carefully moving around the battlefield without provoking Opportunity Actions. As a Move Action, a character may use the Adjust Action, allowing her to Shift up to 2 squares (10 feet/3 meters).

Relocating: Relocating is a special type of movement that does not provoke Opportunity Actions. A Relocated character is magically lifted and transported to another location by means of a Class Ability, Feat, or Power. As a result, Relocation is limited only by distance—terrain, height, or impediments such as walls or creatures matter nothing to a Relocating character. Unfortunately, like Shifting, it is not something a character can do all the time—the only ways a character can Relocate is if she uses a Class Ability, Feat, or Power that allows her to Relocate, or if she is subject to an attack that Relocates her.

Flying: Flying is a special type of movement similar to Basic Movement, but unique in that a character with the ability to Fly possesses a Basic Fly Speed separate from her Basic Speed. When a character with the ability to Fly takes a Move Action, she may use her Basic Fly Speed and the related rules in place of her Basic Speed. A Flying character floats above the ground through the use of wings, magic, a Class Ability, Power, Feat, or some other form of propulsion. As a result, Flying is not limited by terrain or height—only solid impediments such as walls will prevent a Flying character’s movement, and even then only provided the character cannot simply go over or under the obstacle. Unless otherwise specified, a Flying character can remain airborne indefinitely.

[lesser_minion]

I'm cool with ignoring the extra 2.4cm if it helps. Provided that you measure temperatures in Celsius (I have trouble with Fahrenheit)

I'm not sure exactly how it interacts with WotC licensing, but I was under the impression that game mechanics were difficult to copyright in any event.

[Zovc]

Shifting: Shifting is a special type of movement that does not provoke Opportunity Actions. Unfortunately, its not something a character can do all the time—the only ways a character can Shift is if she Adjusts (see below), if she uses a Class Ability, Feat, or Power that allows her to Shift, or if she is subject to an attack that Shifts her.

Is Slide a D&D (not familiar with 4e) term? I think it sounds better than Shift.

Also, mage hand currently moves people, I think this movement should be called a Shove:

Shoving: Certain abilities are capable of moving characters other than your own, moving another character is called "shoving" another character, and being moved by another character is being "shoved." A shove will not normally provoke an opportunity action, but certain abilities may allow a character to treat a shoved character as if he had voluntarily moved.

I feel like my wording is a bit convoluted, but essentially what I'm trying to accomplish is:
-The shoving character determines where the shoved character will move.
-Characters are not allowed opportunity actions unless they have abilities that allow them to do so. (This is not necessary, but it leaves "upwards compatibility.")

Also, I don't like mage hand being able to push (shove?) characters. I feel like mage hand would have a more intuitive combat implication if it was able to deliver a touch attack from a distance. I also feel like a Wizard should have to chose what at-will powers he knows, this leaves room for you to "splatbook" in more at-will powers without giving all Wizards said at-will powers retroactively.

"Why didn't my wizard know how to use color spray (as an example) before now?"
"Well, uh..."

I may not be able to convert any races, but I'm about to look through the books I have. Should I worry about renaming "non-archetypical" fantasy races if I decide to present them?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm cool with ignoring the extra 2.4cm if it helps. Provided that you measure temperatures in Celsius (I have trouble with Fahrenheit)

I'm not sure exactly how it interacts with WotC licensing, but I was under the impression that game mechanics were difficult to copyright in any event.

Temperatures will also include both conversions, just for you. :smallbiggrin:

And licensing game mechanics IS hard. They can't license a mechanic for moving a creature, but they CAN license calling it a Push, and having that mechanic be specifically reserved for moving a creature further away without provoking attacks of opportunity. So I just need to be a little bit careful with my wording.

Also, to address Zovc's point: No class knows all At-Wills. They'll know a selection of them, with the ability to trade them in or acquire more through feats. So said Wizard wouldn't automatically know Color Spray.

As for races, don't bother to rename them. If I decide to "officially" (as official as I'll get) include them in a finished product distributed freely online, I'll have to rename and refluff them, but for casual play it won't matter. :smallbiggrin:

[Zovc]

Is Small Folk the universal small race ability? What about Hard to Hit? Both abilities resemble the mechanics for being small (AC bonus, particularly).

Can two characters with Small Folk occupy the same space? On that note, (how) will grappling work in this system (if you've gotten to that)?

I'm asking about small races because I'm interested in Goblins and Kobolds, possibly Gnolls, as well, but they aren't small.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Is Small Folk the universal small race ability? What about Hard to Hit? Both abilities resemble the mechanics for being small (AC bonus, particularly).

Can two characters with Small Folk occupy the same space? On that note, (how) will grappling work in this system (if you've gotten to that)?

I'm asking about small races because I'm interested in Goblins and Kobolds, possibly Gnolls, as well, but they aren't small.

I'm honestly not sure about the former. That would make small races have fewer distinct abilities, which I'm not sure I like...

And no, as Small Folk doesn't decrease your space (note how you can't stop in an opponent's space), you can't cram characters together.

Grappling I have no idea about yet...but it will come. Along with feats and powers to represent true unarmed combat.

[Meek]

Slide is indeed a D&D 4e term, but then again so are things like push and pull. These game mechanics terms are extremely hard to actually copyright though, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Zovc]

I was thinking the same thing about not having as much differentiating small races, so I went ahead and essentially just had Kobolds be medium creatures (although it's not as though they can't be described as small).

Kobold
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 30 feet
Senses: Kobolds have Darkvision.
Pack Fighter: Kobolds like fighting in groups, they get a +1 bonus to all attack rolls and to their AC whenever they recieve a teamwork bonus
Mob Mentality: For each ally within 15 feet, a kobold gets a +2 bonus to resisting any effect that would cause him to become shaken or frightened.
Cowardice: Any time a kobold takes damage from a melee attack, he must make a saving throw DC (10 + damage taken) or become shaken. Any time a kobold is shaken, frightened or panicked, its base speed is increased by 5ft.
Natural Guerilla: Kobolds take well to guerilla tactics, they recieve a +1 bonus to all rolls made during a surprise round of combat.
Specialties: Kobolds get a +2 Racial bonus on Trapping checks and Move Silently checks.

You could have kobolds move at 25ft if you wanted, I suppose. I feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done on these guys, but this is probably the best I can do. Anyone is welcome to take what I have and hammer it into a more elegant form.

I think Kobolds should have a -2 str, +2 dex. (Perhaps "monstrous races" could have ability score modifiers? Your call.)

[Meek]

I think being shaken nearly all of the time (taking 10 damage makes it a DC20 save, which across levels 1-6 of D&D 3.5 isn't too shabby, and 10 damage in one go isn't particularly difficult to do, 13-15 would be possible and much worse) makes the Kobold kind of annoying to play. But then again I play 4e, so my opinion of this is skewed and probably doesn't matter in the context of this game, so you're welcome to spit on it and call me a lunatic.

[lesser_minion]

I think the 'Cowardice' trait might be a little harsh as far as evoking the fluff goes (and you're being a bit nasty to OotS and Unforgotten Realms kobolds).

It might be interesting to give kobolds at least some 'loner' abilities as well.

[Godskook]

I think being shaken nearly all of the time (taking 10 damage makes it a DC20 save, which across levels 1-6 of D&D 3.5 isn't too shabby, and 10 damage in one go isn't particularly difficult to do, 13-15 would be possible and much worse) makes the Kobold kind of annoying to play. But then again I play 4e, so my opinion of this is skewed and probably doesn't matter in the context of this game, so you're welcome to spit on it and call me a lunatic.

Yeah, but as he listed it, marching in a pack of 10 kobolds gives each a +18 for that throw, +8 in a pack of 5. So in groups, they're fearless, but alone, they run at the first sign of trouble. Besides, a kobold sorcerer would only have ~20 hp at level 6. If something hit me for half my hp, I'd run, shaken or not, and frankly, that +5ft movement is going to help.

[Pronounceable]

Conversions in Hexes, Meters, and Feet will be included for all distances.

Wohoo, score!


I'm honestly not sure about the former. That would make small races have fewer distinct abilities, which I'm not sure I like...

We could just add two more categories around medium without any mechanical properties for kobolds, gnolls and such (orcs would go there as well). Alternately, we could increase medium range to cover sizes from kobold to bugbear to have them playable and keep number of sizes small. Either way, I like restricting PCs to non crunchety sizes.



Kobold


Mostly fits the classic concept of koboldness. They can simply have 6 meters of speed (yay!), nothing binds speed to size. But since we still don't have concrete damage and hp rules, Cowardice is shaky (not to mention it adds much extra rolling). Plus with a proper kobold mob of 20+, Mob Mentality insures they'll never rout until very few is left standing and Pack Fighter transforms a true mob into an orc waaagh. Decidedly unkoboldy. MM can work with +1, PF gotta go seeing kobolds only gain the ability to actually stay and fight with numbers, and Cowardice needs streamlining (and keeping MM in mind).

Cowardice: Any time a kobold is bloodied or an ally falls in battle, he must save Presence vs DC 30 (I got the crunchy right?) or become frightened and try to flee to the best of his ability. Any time a kobold is bloodied, shaken, frightened or panicked, its base speed is increased to 9 meters (yay!).

This adds even more rolling. But kobolds will definitely flee when there aren't a whole lot of them. I'm not very happy with this, but it's the best I could come up with. And they still need another ability...

EDIT: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere!

And I just remembered kobolds' rampant cowardice stems from their small size and inherent physical weakness. Oops.


And we should get to hp and damage soon (nudge, nudge) because some rulings don't make much sense without them.

EDIT: D'oh!

[lesser_minion]

30 metres per round? Please tell me that's a mistake and you meant 9m per round. On face value, you're currently suggesting that kobolds can run around at 25ms-1 (around 56 miles per hour).

I tend to give units in 'spaces' and metres - this matches the old 3.0 system of 5ft increments and allows players to break out the tape measure if they want.

In general, a distance should be the same regardless of the measurement used - you just need rules for making those measurements on a tabletop, square grid and hex grid.

Diagonal movement on a square grid can be handled either by breaking out the tape measure or using the 'alternate squares count double' rule.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I was thinking the same thing about not having as much differentiating small races, so I went ahead and essentially just had Kobolds be medium creatures (although it's not as though they can't be described as small).

Kobold
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 30 feet
Senses: Kobolds have Darkvision.
Pack Fighter: Kobolds like fighting in groups, they get a +1 bonus to all attack rolls and to their AC whenever they recieve a teamwork bonus
Mob Mentality: For each ally within 15 feet, a kobold gets a +2 bonus to resisting any effect that would cause him to become shaken or frightened.
Cowardice: Any time a kobold takes damage from a melee attack, he must make a saving throw DC (10 + damage taken) or become shaken. Any time a kobold is shaken, frightened or panicked, its base speed is increased by 5ft.
Natural Guerilla: Kobolds take well to guerilla tactics, they recieve a +1 bonus to all rolls made during a surprise round of combat.
Specialties: Kobolds get a +2 Racial bonus on Trapping checks and Move Silently checks.

You could have kobolds move at 25ft if you wanted, I suppose. I feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done on these guys, but this is probably the best I can do. Anyone is welcome to take what I have and hammer it into a more elegant form.

I think Kobolds should have a -2 str, +2 dex. (Perhaps "monstrous races" could have ability score modifiers? Your call.)

30ft movement seems fine.
Natural Guerilla is a good, flavorful ability that provides an obvious benefit without being incredibly powerful. I like it. Same with Mob Mentality, although it would need a re-wording.

Cowardice, however, isn't good...I'd prefer not to build flaws into races, as every other race has four obvious benefits. Additionally, not all Kobolds are cowards. Same with Pack Fighter, but for a different reason: it's really easy to work Teamwork bonuses in, and those already lead to a rapidly increasing hit chance. Adding MORE attack bonuses on top of that makes it insane, especially if you get a defense bonus as well. I'd prefer to see those two abilities replaced by others...I'll think on it and see what comes up.

Approximate damage and HP values will be up sometime today.

[Pronounceable]

Actually, I'd prefer to have grid of single metersquares (if I have to have one). And I'd have base human speed at 1 m/s and rounds in 10 seconds for a perfectly round number of 10 speed.

Everything is better with decimals.

As for diagonal movement, "alternate squares are double" is as good as it gets. Or we deal with fractions (unhappy math plus most crunch will assume everything is fully in squares).


SO MANY NINJAS:

Cowardice, however, isn't good...I'd prefer not to build flaws into races, as every other race has four obvious benefits.

Though I like kobolds being cowardly (it's their whole schtick), but you're right. It's better to leave routing/courage stuff to DM. In light of this, inspiration strikes:

Better Part of Valor: Whenever a kobold is bloodied, shaken, frightened or panicked his base speed increases to 9 meters (or 12 if they're given 9 base) and he can run at five times his speed.

[lesser_minion]

The thing is that 1.5 ms-1 is actually a pretty decent approximation to how fast an average human moves.

Throwing out realism just so that humans can move 10m in a round seems a little odd - also, miniatures used in this game tend to be 25mm, 28mm or 30mm scale, which works best when a 25mm square on the tabletop is about 1.5m - 1.8m

also, 10 squares per round takes up maybe more space than would be acceptable.

The idea of giving kobolds a base speed of 9 and a perk that raises it to 12 when they are bloodied or subject to a fear effect is reasonable, although it's the kind of thing that, for me, tends to turn into an "it just bugs me" for a game system.

[Meek]

Cowardice, however, isn't good...I'd prefer not to build flaws into races, as every other race has four obvious benefits.

I'm extremely glad to hear this, as racial flaws are another D&D legacy item I detested. This also makes balancing, again, much much easier.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...how does this look for the Kobold:


Kobold

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 6 squares (30 feet/9 meters)
Senses: Kobolds have Darkvision.
Mob Mentality: Kobolds gain a cumulative +1 bonus to Defense versus Fear and Compulsion effects for each ally within 3 squares (15 feet/4.5 meters).
Natural Guerrilla*: Kobolds gain a +1 bonus on all Offense Values during surprise rounds.
Self Preservation: Whenever a Kobold is subject to a Critical Hit, he may shift his Base Land Speed as an immediate action.
Skitter*: Kobolds may Shift 3 squares (15 feet/4.5 meters) as a Move Action rather than the usual 2 squares.
Specialties: Kobolds gain a +2 Racial bonus to Disable Device and Stealth checks.



As for the promised damage calculations: Damage for spellcasters is approximately (this is a rough estimate) 1d8 + 3 (primary ability modifier) + Level, or, on average, 7.5 damage + Level.

Damage for martial characters with a high weapon proficiency (Fighters) is about 1d8 + 2 (Proficiency) + 3 (Primary Ability modifier) + Level, or, on average, 9.5 damage + Level.

These are rough estimates, and may be off by as much as 2-4 damage in either direction, depending on class, race, and circumstances.

HP currently looks like 10+Con for weak classes, 13+Con for slightly tougher classes, 16+Con for combat ready classes, and 19+Con for really tough classes. Thus a Wizard (10+Con) will usually be slain in two to three solid hits, while a Fighter (19+Con) can most likely take four or five.

The numbers may, however, increase by anywhere from 5 to 10, depending on playtesting.

[Zovc]

I like what you've done with Kobolds, I want to play one now.

I don't know if I like the ring of "Natural Guerrilla(proper spelling)," I would say Guerrilla does the trick, but I feel like that has the potential to be a class.

[Pronounceable]

You people realize that everyone loves kobolds, right? There can be no other explanation for the amount of love they've just got. Damn, I'm as human supremacist as they come, and I like kobolds.


Kobold

Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 6 squares (30 feet/9 meters)
Senses: Kobolds have Darkvision.
Mob Mentality: Kobolds gain a cumulative +1 bonus to Defense versus Fear and Compulsion effects for each ally within 3 squares (15 feet/4.5 meters).
Natural Guerrilla*: Kobolds gain a +1 bonus on all Offense Values during surprise rounds.
Self Preservation: Whenever a Kobold is subject to a Critical Hit, he may shift his Base Land Speed as an immediate action.
Skitter*: Kobolds may Shift 3 squares (15 feet/4.5 meters) as a Move Action rather than the usual 2 squares.
Specialties: Kobolds gain a +2 Racial bonus to Disable Device and Stealth checks.


I like Skitter. And Self Preservation looks nice, I like the picture of a kobold jumping 9 meters away when you hit him hard.

Better Part of Valor feels more flavory to me (self promotion? surely not!). Both are very koboldy tho and either can work.

Those asterisks are passed to halfbreeds, yes? On one hand, it's admirable that you're leaving the door open for squickophile interracial fans. OTOH I'd like to write down this:

Kobelf
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Speed: 6 squares (30 feet/9 meters)
Senses: Kobelves have Darkvision.

Natural Guerrilla: Kobelves gain a +1 bonus on all Offense Values during surprise rounds.
Skitter: Kobelves may Shift 3 squares (15 feet/4.5 meters) as a Move Action rather than the usual 2 squares.
Gentle Tread: Kobelves are not slowed by Moderate terrain difficulties, and treat Heavy terrain difficulties as if they were Moderate.
Environmental Awareness: Kobelves always roll Initiative checks to act in surprise rounds, and are only considered surprised before they have acted. A kobelf who goes before the threat is revealed senses something amiss with the situation.
Specialties: Kobolds gain a +2 Racial bonus to Stealth and Perception checks.

Crunchily, this is obviously born to rogue (I assumed one bonus from each side for specialties). Though I leave it to the reader's imagination what it looks like or how such a creature came to be...



As for the promised damage calculations: Damage for spellcasters is approximately (this is a rough estimate) 1d8 + 3 (primary ability modifier) + Level, or, on average, 7.5 damage + Level.

Damage for martial characters with a high weapon proficiency (Fighters) is about 1d8 + 2 (Proficiency) + 3 (Primary Ability modifier) + Level, or, on average, 9.5 damage + Level.

These are rough estimates, and may be off by as much as 2-4 damage in either direction, depending on class, race, and circumstances.

HP currently looks like 10+Con for weak classes, 13+Con for slightly tougher classes, 16+Con for combat ready classes, and 19+Con for really tough classes. Thus a Wizard (10+Con) will usually be slain in two to three solid hits, while a Fighter (19+Con) can most likely take four or five.

The numbers may, however, increase by anywhere from 5 to 10, depending on playtesting.

So at wills are around these numbers. Would multiple targeted/AoE ones or with extras (shifting, stunning, etc) decrease base damage? And crits are double damage, I presume?

Didn't you say something about hp tied to race? Or am I imagining things? Either way, I'd suggest it. Halve your numbers from class, add from race. 5/7/8/10 for classes and same numbers for races. Halflings and kobolds get 5 (kobolds are obviously going to be "core" after all), elves get 7, humans get 8, dwarves and orcs get 10. Which should work out to about same hp.

Dwarf fighter and orc barbarian (will assume 11 Con for everyone, though I utterly loathe and despise point buy and by extension stat arrays, I gotta put the default numbers in, and minimum would be best) get 31 hp, elf wizard gets 23 hp, human cleric gets 26 hp and halfling rogue gets 23 hp.

Assuming average 9,5 damage all are down on 3rd hit, except the toughest who can take a 4th (disregarding higher Con). On all levels, DR will cancel lv bonus so average hit is consistently 9,5 between equal lvls and fights last the same. Lower lvls are disadvantaged on 1v1 (high guy gets +1 offense, low guy has -1 DR, nifty but not overpowering), but heavy outnumbering pwns regardless of lvl.

Yep, this is good. Four thumbs up.

And if highest lv fighters get iterative attacks, they become shoed gods of war (which'd be OK actually, why not have fighters OPed for a change?). Wait, we don't have a "default base attack" action to get iteratives on... Or do we?


Now all we're missing is basics of encounters and dailies, plus the classes. And magic. And feats. And power lists. Then you can set up a playtest (I'll want in on that, of course). Fancy stuff like grappling, familiars, prestige classes, special weapon manuevers, blah can wait. I'm still not sold on 6 defenses thing, but G7 is going good.

I miss the 4 step feats though. They were an addiction. But with standalone choosable powers also in, old feat structure can create crunchy mountains in the magnitude of 4E. Which'd suck pretty bad.

[Zovc]

Sure, everyone likes kobolds, but I actively try to play kobolds (and/or goblins) in any campaign I'm able to get in. (Unfortunately, nobody plays Dungeons and Dragons in my area, and I don't have the experience or skills to DM myself.)

I think Half-Elf, Half-Kobolds should be called Elbolds, because it kind of sounds like "elbows," which I would expect members of the "race" to look like. (That's a low blow.) I don't remember what happens with specialties and mixxing races, either, cnsvnc.

I'm not sure if I like Better Part of Valor or Self Preservation, but I do have to concede that I like BPoV's name more. I like what both of the abilities do, but I'm not sure which one is more streamlined.

I think my opinon on tiered feats, individual feats, or both will be formed after I see how classes get their abilities. Also, how will feats be earnned? Will you package the 'variant' that allows players to continue gaining feats after level 6(7?)?

I have to refrain from crunching your numbers, as I've previously stated, I have limited experience with playing Dungeons and Dragons; I mostly just read rulebooks and splat books, hoping to one day find a group that isn't already full.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I like Skitter. And Self Preservation looks nice, I like the picture of a kobold jumping 9 meters away when you hit him hard.

Better Part of Valor feels more flavory to me (self promotion? surely not!). Both are very koboldy tho and either can work.

Better Part of Valor IS move flavory, but, in my mind, less useful to PCs (who rarely run away from fights). Perhaps, as monsters, Kobolds will gain a similiar ability, but, as players, the extra speed isn't really as helpful as the long distance shift. That said, Better Part of Valor is a better name, so I've renamed Self Preservation. :smallbiggrin:


Kobelf

Crunchily, this is obviously born to rogue (I assumed one bonus from each side for specialties). Though I leave it to the reader's imagination what it looks like or how such a creature came to be...


Yeah...that's the problem it gives. That said, I'll probably include the Half-Elf and Half-Orc, as those are fairly traditional staples, and say that the rest are by DM decision only. A DM probably should veto the Kobelf.



So at wills are around these numbers. Would multiple targeted/AoE ones or with extras (shifting, stunning, etc) decrease base damage? And crits are double damage, I presume?

Multiple targets or powerful effects will down the damage by a few (1-3 ish), but most attacks will have some additional effect. Crits dealing double damage gets VERY powerful, so I'd taken from 4e and had them dealing maximum damage...but I'm open to opinions. Perhaps maximum damage and bypassing Universal Resistance...although that makes them DEADLY. Which is, perhaps, a good thing.


Didn't you say something about hp tied to race? Or am I imagining things? Either way, I'd suggest it. Halve your numbers from class, add from race. 5/7/8/10 for classes and same numbers for races. Halflings and kobolds get 5 (kobolds are obviously going to be "core" after all), elves get 7, humans get 8, dwarves and orcs get 10. Which should work out to about same hp.

I didn't, but it's an interesting idea...what does everyone else think? Also, in that case, races would probably run a closer gap: something like 6/8/10 or 7/8/9/10, since the racial abilities are already about balanced.


And if highest lv fighters get iterative attacks, they become shoed gods of war (which'd be OK actually, why not have fighters OPed for a change?). Wait, we don't have a "default base attack" action to get iteratives on... Or do we?

There will be no iterative attacks, to avoid the "shoed god of war" effect. Fighters may still, however, be OPed in some ways...some of the pending class abilities kick HUGE amounts of donkey.



Now all we're missing is basics of encounters and dailies, plus the classes. And magic. And feats. And power lists. Then you can set up a playtest (I'll want in on that, of course). Fancy stuff like grappling, familiars, prestige classes, special weapon manuevers, blah can wait. I'm still not sold on 6 defenses thing, but G7 is going good.

And that's my plan. Finish a few more basic rules, draft up a list of status effects, create classes, create powers, create feats, create weapons, determine exact skills, and then playtest. :smallbiggrin:

And yes, after all the help you've done on both the initial version and now on G7, there is a spot in the playtest most definitely reserved for you!

To Zovc: I'm not sure at what rate feats will be earned, but it will be core (not optional) that classes can continue to gain feats (and perhaps powers) past 7th level, to allow for continuing adventures and expansions on the system. :smallbiggrin:

[Pronounceable]

less useful to PCs (who rarely run away from fights).

No one said the extra speed has to be used to run away...


And yes, after all the help you've done on both the initial version and now on G7, there is a spot in the playtest most definitely reserved for you!

Yay! I'm useful!Though for the record, my true plan has always been to kill you and take your rules. It's just that you need to have a system for my evil plan in the first place... Bwahahah, no wait. I shouldn't be telling this yet. Nevermind.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

No one said the extra speed has to be used to run away...

True. However, in my experience, movement of more than 5 squares (25 feet/7.5 meters...yes, it's become habit) is rare in battle, which is when being shaken or frightened will most likely happen. Just my opinion.


Yay! I'm useful!Though for the record, my true plan has always been to kill you and take your rules. It's just that you need to have a system for my evil plan in the first place... Bwahahah, no wait. I shouldn't be telling this yet. Nevermind.

Huh. Didn't even notice the text until I quoted your reply. Interesting. :smallbiggrin:

And at least I'll die knowing that my rules will go into the hands of someone who, hopefully, will enjoy using them! That said, I'll be ready for you when the moment of reckoning comes...

[Lord_Gareth]

Incidentally, I totally want in on the playtest. I'm calling skillmonkey!

But if I find out this is too much like that cookie-cutter crapfest that is 4e, I will chain you to your PC and provide you only bread and water until the Paradigm Project is complete.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Incidentally, I totally want in on the playtest. I'm calling skillmonkey!

But if I find out this is too much like that cookie-cutter crapfest that is 4e, I will chain you to your PC and provide you only bread and water until the Paradigm Project is complete.

Ouch...more painful subtext! Don't worry...I think it will be different enough to not merit such a thing (I hope). If by "cookie-cutter" you mean "there are few options and, as such, everything looks alike." G7 has plans for true Prestige Classes (taken from level 4 onward), more variety in Powers and methods known (multi-purpose spells and Weapon-derived powers that anyone with the knowledge can use, and everything chosen from longer lists of potential powers), more interesting (in my mind) Racial abilities, and more Class abilities, in addition to no Class skills, allowing any assortment of skills one wants for their character.

For example...here's the Fighter, minus about half of his abilities. I like to think he's not just a 4e clone. In fact, many level 30 4e characters would give up half their levels for just a few of his abilities! Also, on top of this, he has his At-Wills (from Class and Weapons), his Encounter and Focus powers, his Racial Abilities, and his Feats. What do we think of Version 0.1? Am I on the right track? Are there suggestions for abilities?

Incidentally, this Fighter is made to be both a melee and ranged attacker. Bows will be able to make Opportunity Attacks, as otherwise they're a bit weak...although the opportunity attack may just be hitting someone with the bow itself.

I feel the fighter shouldn't be just a collection of feats...customization doesn't matter quite as much with the introduction of Prestige Classes after only three levels and the wide variety of combinations available through multi-classing and other classes (which, in the Martial category, will include the Rogue, the Swashbuckler, the Knight, and more as they are suggested). So this Fighter is made to be just that: a competent warrior who can easily dominate the battlefield through his martial prowess.

Anyway...

The Fighter

Table ??-??: The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Hold the Line, Weapon Aptitude

2nd|
Press the Advantage, Battle Hardened

3rd|
Relentless Foe, ????

4th|
Skilled Opportunist, ????

5th|
????, ????

6th|
????, ????

7th|
Overwhelming Assailant, ????[/table]

Hold the Line: Whenever a Fighter hits an adjacent opponent on an Opportunity Action provoked by movement, she may choose to have that opponent’s Move Action end immediately, leaving the opponent in the square that they provoked the Opportunity Action for leaving. The opponent may use her Standard Action, if it remains, to take a new move action as per normal. If a Fighter hits an adjacent opponent who is not taking a Move Action (a Forced opponent, for example), she may choose to stop that opponent’s movement if she so desires.

Weapon Aptitude: Fighters gain a +1 Class Bonus to Offense Values for attacks with the Martial keyword.

Press the Advantage: Foes who Shift out of a square adjacent to a Fighter provoke Opportunity Actions from the Fighter as if they had moved normally.

Battle Hardened: Fighters gain a +2 Class Bonus to Defense and Saving Throws against attacks with the Fear keyword.

Relentless Foe: If a Fighter misses a foe with an attack with the Martial keyword, she gains a +1 Class Bonus to Offense Values for attacks with the Martial keyword against that same foe until the end of her next turn.

Skilled Opportunist: When a Fighter uses an Opportunity Action to make an attack, she may choose to use a Power with the Martial keyword in place of a Basic Attack, provided the Power requires a Standard Action or less to initiate.

Overwhelming Assailant: Whenever a Fighter hits a foe with an attack with the Martial keyword, her allies gain Advantage against that foe until the start of the Fighter’s next turn.

[lesser_minion]

I'm not absolutely sold on this, mainly because you seem to have tied the character down to battlefield control in the same way as a 4e Defender.

On the flip side, I could probably grow to like this - most of the abilities are generic enough to fit several different character classes, and you don't seem to have taken the 4e route of "concept balance ≡ physics".

For now I'll provisionally approve it.

Subject to the powers being pretty awesome. Also, I expect to see temperatures in the Rankine and Kelvin scales.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

He may seem tied to battlefield control, but let me explain my reasoning:

A skilled fighter does two things: Firstly, he defeats his opponent. Secondly, he controls the fight. Letting your opponent have control over the action is the worst thing you can do in combat (I'm a fencer, so this analysis is based on that...I've been told it's true in other forms of fighting). So the fighter does have a bit of controller/defender in him.

He can Hold the Line, by engaging his foes in combat with him. Check. You don't run past a skilled swordsman without stopping to deal with him if he attacks you. An even moderately skilled fighter learns from his mistakes, attacking your weaknesses with his next attack...Relentless foe. Check. Running from one means that, for a slight moment, your guard is down...Press the Advantage. Check. And, if a skilled fighter is after you, you have less time for other defenses...Overwhelming Assailant. Check.

I'll admit that Hold the Line is almost pure control...but it can be in a non-controlling manner, as what you're really doing is getting them close to you, where you can really tear them apart. Relentless Foe isn't remotely defender-y, it's just something showcasing the Fighter's martial prowess. Same with Weapon Aptitude. Press the Advantage is controller-ish, but a good fighter doesn't let his foe get away if he doesn't want them to, and more attacks means more damage, allowing for striker-type builds or any damage focused stuff.

Basically, this Fighter can control a fight, but I don't see anything that means he's tied down to that. He's got some neat tricks in that direction, but he's really about and keeping his foes engaged in combat so they don't turn tail and run, while keeping up a consistent and reliable damage output...exactly what the standard 3.5 fighter was supposed to be able to do. If they do, he'll pursue them or catch them in a wall of steel. He's an impediment as well...opponents have good reason to stay away from the master of the battlefield when he's riled. I see him as no more of a "one-path" class than I do the Warblade, for example (who, without his powers, seems like nothing more than an Intelligent tank).

Powers will also help, as they will run the gamut from pure controller to pure striker to everything else (to use 4e terminology).

But if more people agree, I suppose I could break down all the classes into abilities only, and allow free selection with minimum level requirements. That said, I'm not to keen on doing that...I'd rather make a bunch of classes. But I want to know which you guys think would be best.

Finally, Make suggestions for abilities! This is only half a class, and abilities can be moved around, so, if you think he's to much of a controller/defender, toss me a few ideas and we'll see if we can fix the problem.

[unosarta]

wow, this system looks really cool. i liked the feel of the original G6, and i have no doubt that i will love this too. one thing i have to ask about the classes, are you granting them powers at all now, or are you just using the class features? or will you just have the powers for casters?

EDIT: just saw that you said powers were there. well, i cant really judge the class without some of the powers at least, but it looks cool so far.

GO FENCERS!!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Some quickly drafted Fighter At-Wills. All of these are general attacks...more specific ones (Cleave, Disengages, Lunges, Sweeps, and so forth) will be determined by the weapon you wield (after all...it's impossible to cleave through two people wielding a dagger or a rapier, while disengaging with a Greataxe is nigh impossible).


Sidestep ― Fighter At-Will
When your opponent swings at you, you step neatly aside, ready to launch
your own attack.
Free Reaction ― Evasion
Trigger: An opponent misses you with an attack with the Martial keyword.
Target: Personal
Effect: You Shift 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters).


Tactical Retreat ― Fighter At-Will
You back carefully away from your foe, making sure to watch him closely
for any sudden movement.
Standard Action ― Evasion
Target: Personal
Effect: You Shift 5 squares (25 feet/7.5 meters), and do not provoke
Opportunity Actions for this movement even if your opponent can normally
take Opportunity Actions against a Shifting foe.


Follow-up Blow ― Fighter At-Will
You bring your weapon back across your opponent for a second blow.
Move Action ― Martial, Melee
Target: One creature within your reach.
To Hit: Strength or Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Hit: 2 + Strength modifier + Level Martial damage, or 2 + Dexterity
modifier + Level Martial damage.


Pressing Attack ― Fighter At-Will
You drive your opponent backwards, leaving them open to your allies
attacks.
Standard Action ― Martial, Melee
Target: One adjacent creature.
To Hit: Strength or Constitution vs. Strength
Hit: 1d8 + Strength modifier + Level Martial damage, and Force your
opponent 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters). You shift 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters)
to the square your opponent previously occupied.

[Lord_Gareth]

I like the ideas so far, but I'm somewhat concerned about a concept you should know well: role protection.

The reason 4e sucks like a crack whore with rent due is because each class has rigid, unmoving role protection. Too little role protection, however, and the ideas of class become utterly irrelevant. While not bad (see World of Darkness), that definitely isn't D&D's style. Right now, I'm seeing elements of role protection, and they worry me a little.

It boils down to this - what stops a fighter from being automatically outclassed by, say, a Barbarian (which is what happened in 3.5) WITHOUT locking either into a rigid mould?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I like the ideas so far, but I'm somewhat concerned about a concept you should know well: role protection.

The reason 4e sucks like a crack whore with rent due is because each class has rigid, unmoving role protection. Too little role protection, however, and the ideas of class become utterly irrelevant. While not bad (see World of Darkness), that definitely isn't D&D's style. Right now, I'm seeing elements of role protection, and they worry me a little.

It boils down to this - what stops a fighter from being automatically outclassed by, say, a Barbarian (which is what happened in 3.5) WITHOUT locking either into a rigid mould?

Different, yet not role-exclusive, mechanics. The Barbarian may have different powers, but, as a warrior class, some will still deal with damage, some with control, and some with defense. The only mold that's there is the role of "warrior class."

For example, with the At-Wills given, the fighter can be a tactical fighter, positioning himself around the battlefield for maximum effect, a brute, shoving his foes around and allowing his allies to get off free attacks (part of the Force mechanic), or a strong swordsman, standing toe-to-toe with his opponents and getting off multiple attacks in a round. The Barbarian will be able to do similiar (sometimes even the same) thing, yet his methods of doing so will reflect a more savage, rage-filled nature.

That said, what do you currently see that says "role protection" to you? I'd like to fix that, if possible...although the Fighter's role will always be "warrior" of some type. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

Mostly? Lack of options in terms of the abilities. I don't know how we aquire at-wills yet, but the class abilities follow a linear progression with no deviation. That worked in 3.5...except that it didn't. Notice that the most flexible classes (druid/cleric/wizard/every other spellcaster ever) were inevitably the most powerful?

Why not offer players choices at various levels, or perhaps at all levels, with which to build their characters? Not only would that additional layer of choice add some mechanical uniqueness to the characters, it helps the player define his/her niche instead of the class.

Also, some general ability/At-Will ideas:

Harp on the Wounded: Fighter deals additional damage (maybe status ailment instead?) when striking a foe that someone else damaged in the last round.

Back to Back: As long as the Fighter is adjacent to one of his party members (NOT an ally, a PARTY. MEMBER.), neither may be flanked.

Potential Rogue ideas:

Killing Spree: When you [sneak attack equivalent here] an opponent, you may shift 4 spaces towards another opponent and make an additional attack at the end of your shift.

Lethal Legarity: When an opponent misses a martial strike against you, you may choose to have the attack hit a creature you threaten.

[Pronounceable]

That said, I'll be ready for you when the moment of reckoning comes...
Nope you won't. I got myself a Spanish Inquisitor for such occasions...


I'm also concerned about the final number of powers and abilities and whatnot. The main reason I threw away 4E PHB in disgust (aka: real reason 4e sucks like a crack whore with rent due) is it had pages upon pages with nothing but powers. It's probably years spent majoring in physics, but I do not approve of tables, lists, optimization woes and intricacy in RPG crunch. A few basic choices in making a PC is good, a ****load of them is bad (for newbies, for those who don't enjoy number crunching, for those who just wanna get on with the damn game and and me). Cutting cookies or not, there should be some absolute upper limit for the number of powers that exist. Say, 20 powers per "role" and 80 powers max in the whole ruleset. Plus whatever stuff classes give.

Incidentally, I'd keep the number of classes down as well. My distaste for extra crunch aside, each class comes with 14 abilities that have to be made. See Table 1: Fighter. There's only so much stuff one can come up with that involves hitting things with metal objects. There'll also be powers, feats and blah which'll further divide the made up stuff. This point also ties with the one above.

Remember that there's gotta be a compilation of all these rules someday. And if it looks anything like 4E PHB, it'll be known as FAIL


On to the fighter:
So Press the Advantage is an exception, then Tactical Retreat is an exception to that. Clumsy.

Basic attack: What is that?

Though Relentless Foe is nice, I'm wary of temporary bonuses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html).

I have no problem with fighter dominating the battle around him. It's what he's supposed to do. Chosen powers will slant him towards more damage, resilience or control, but the core of "fighter class" can be battlefield control and survival. Killing things quick in melee I imagine will be core of "barbarian class". Rogues I'd say gotta go for steady "debuffs" hopefully using skills and killing blows when stars are aligned right. As I've mentioned, it's best to keep number of classes low so 3 or so martial classes each with a basic focus on a fundamentally different concept, with fancy stuff left for prestige classes would be good.
Fighter=control the flow of battle
Barbarian=kill things fast
Rogue=trick or treat
Extra=something definitely not one of the others (possibly ranger with ranged combat)

Now, with an arrangement like this, classes have to be fluffless collections of abilities. I approve that, it forces players to make their own fluff. Though I'll admit "barbarian" is a poor name in this context. Just like old Thief, whose players felt they just had to steal stuff. Maybe a name like Brute would fit better...

This is opposite of what Lord Gareth is talking about. Why's locking a class into a mould bad again? If you want to do X, play Xer class. Why should all classes be able to X, even if to a lesser extent? Flexibility is overrated, just like game balance. And mechanical uniqeness (though I'd say nothing very necessary) is (or rather will be) there thanks to powers.



Subject to the powers being pretty awesome. Also, I expect to see temperatures in the Rankine and Kelvin scales.

Kelvin? And Rankine?? Blah, next you'll ask damage to be measured in electronvolts...

[lesser_minion]

Kelvin? And Rankine?? Blah, next you'll ask damage to be measured in electronvolts...

'Damage' is a pretty abstract concept. These 'hitpoints' work just fine as a unit - I'm not going to ask for any conversions there.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay...I'll address things a little more indepth later, but here's a preliminary:

Cnsvnc: I'm leaning a little more towards you design philosophy than I am towards Gareth's, but, as I'm a fan of variant rules, I think I may include (once finished) Generic classes for each role that can be filled by the player's choice of abilities. In retrospect it won't actually be that hard, as classes follow the same format and same rough power curve.

In terms of number of powers...well, there will be a good many. Each specific class will have a few tailored just for that class, and there will be some generic ones (spells and weapon powers come to mind...those will be shared across a wider board). So it'll be a little 4e-ish, but the powers are less number heavy and less difficult to decipher, as they're all so similiar in terms of strength. No more comparing 3[w] + X to 2[w] + X + Y + Z against three targets or anything. I'm trying to keep them as simple and intuitive as possible. The names will be evocative of the effect...if you don't want to do a Tactical Retreat, then just skip over it, 'cause that's what it does. None of this "Righteous Backhand of the Seven Shining Gods of Faerun, but Not of the Gods of Eberron, Because Those Gods Are Pansies" crap. :smallbiggrin:

Also, because inspiration struck...here's some Barbarian At-Wills for consideration (even if the Barbarian eventually undergoes a flavor change of some kind).

Bloodlust Rage ― Barbarian At-Will
You strike your opponent a mighty blow, reveling in the blood that spills
from his wounds.
Immediate Reaction ― Rage
Trigger: You Bloody an opponent on an attack with the Martial
keyword.
Target: Personal.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +2 Rage bonus
(or +254 Electron Volts :smallbiggrin:) to Damage on attacks with the Martial keyword.


Invigorating Rage ― Barbarian At-Will
A terrible blow wracks your opponent, and you feel the rush of battle
infuse your body.
Immediate Reaction ― Rage, Restoration
Trigger: You score a Critical Hit on an attack with the Martial
keyword.
Target: Personal.
Effect: You regain Hit Points equal to Constitution modifier
+ Level.


Battlefury Rage ― Barbarian At-Will
As your blood stains the ground, your anger at your opponent grows
more and more terrible.
Immediate Reaction ― Rage
Trigger: You take damage from an attack.
Target: Personal.
Effect: Until the end of you next turn, you gain a +1 Rage bonus to
your Offense Value and to Damage on attacks with the Martial keyword
made against the creature whose attack Triggered this power.


Feral Howl ― Barbarian At-Will
As an opponent approaches you, you unleash a terrifying scream,
driving them away with the force of your rage.
Opportunity Action ― Fear, Rage, Sonic
Target: The creature who provoked the Opportunity Action.
To Hit: Constitution or Charisma vs. Charisma
Hit: The target is frightened for 1 round, and then shaken
for 1 round.


Powerful Blow ― Barbarian At-Will
A forceful blow sends your opponent reeling backwards.
Immediate Reaction ― Martial, Melee
Trigger: You roll an 8 on a Martial Damage roll.
Target: The creature you damaged.
Effect: Shift the target 2 squares (10 feet/3 meters) away
from you.


Edit (Further Ideas): Another option combining both cnsvnc's ideas and Gareth's ideas -- What if you picked a fairly generic base class (Fighter, Rogue, Mage, Cleric, and so on) with either 7, 11 (one per level, two at odd levels), or 14 somewhat role specific abilities, and then a special path, with seven abilities based on a concept (or reverse...7 ability base, 7, 11, or 14 ability path). Thus a Rogue/Barbarian and a Rogue/Swashbuckler and a Rogue/Assassin and a Rogue/Blood Magus all have something in common, but each is still unique and independent. PrCs would be dependent on one, the other, or both, depending on the class, and would most likely replace your Path when (and if) selected.

Actually, I'm liking this idea...each generic class has a few generic powers (or just weapon proficiencies high enough to get them), and you select extra powers from your Path...

Opinions?

[Zovc]

In G6, you had capstone abilities for each class, something you got for completing a class (and presumably reaching level 6). Why not do something similar here?

Let me start with a tangent, I definitely subscribe to making base classes as "generic" and/or "archetypical" as possible, opting for names like Guardian, Brawler, etc that give you an general idea of what the classes abilities are tailored to. This way, "post-core" base classes don't really need to be created (although it's not like you have to rule them out), but instead prestige classes can be created to fulfill niches and archetypes that people feel need to be better represented.

So, we have our X base classes, our Y prestige classes, and also Z "upper-classes." You know what base and prestige classes are, so I'll go ahead and move into the uncharted ground first. A "upper-class" (Possibly "Capstone Level") is your 7th level, at which point you take a "new" class for that final level. Doing this allows you to make a upper-class for a Barbarian 3/Fighter 3, or a Barbarian 2/Rogue 4, or any combination, potentially, or you could even do standard prestige class requirements for these classes. Essentially, you are able to give a 7th level to a multiclassing character who could otherwise be weaker than a Fighter 7 or a Rogue 7. Single classes could possibly follow through with all 7 levels, but have the option to become a Berserker, or something of that nature.

Prestige classes could also require levels, if you would like. While the DMG advises against requiring levels, I don't see why not. For example, you could make a prestige class available to a Fighter 3, or a Fighter 2/Rogue 2. Like other classes, you could give prestige classes that 7th level, or you could have them stop at the 6th level and have the player chose a upper-level.

A final backtracking to Barbarians, I personally think a barbarian should be a prestige class, or should not hold the primary role as "Melee Attacker," I think a barbarian should be just as capable a "tank" as he should be "DPS." Srugging off damage and Raging both seem like specific abilities to me, in other words.

On to my thoughts on the barbarian powers:
Invigorating Blow seems like it should give Temporary Hit Points.
Does Feral Howl frighten the target on the first round, then have them shaken, or do they become frightened, then shaken on the same round, for that round?
I think Powerful Blow is an intuitive way of giving a melee attack the ability to move a character. Requiring them to be hit "so hard" as to be moved is logical, too, I think. (I don't think there's any reason a fighter shouldn't be able to move people, either, provided he hits someone "that hard.")

[lesser_minion]

(+ a lot) for the idea of letting characters combine a generic progression with a specific one.

It's actually similar to something I was considering (although I was going to have characters gain mostly abilities from their class, with a smaller number of archetype abilities, and the same overall archetype could fulfil different roles - e.g. the 'Survivor' archetype includes Barbarians and Rangers and can gain healing abilities).

Also, possible at-will:


Warrior Heart
The sight of your enemies cowering behind strange superstitions and coward tactics only serves to embolden you. Nothing can save them now.
Immediate Reaction - Martial, Rage
Trigger - you hit an opponent in melee who is under the benefits of (certain power keywords)
Target - personal
Effect
You gain a +1 on all attack and damage rolls in your next round


It could probably use a name change.

Finally, 254 eV = 2 damage!?! From a barbarian !?! Are you honestly telling me that somebody can be gibbed by the forces they experience by walking down an empty street on a calm overcast day? :smallbiggrin:

Ahem... while energy might not map strictly to damage in D&D terms, you might want to consider using slightly larger units.

[Zovc]

To be honest, lesser_minion, you could always have "archetype feats," or something of that nature. There's no reason a Rogue can't be a survivor. (I actually saw an argument thread on the Wizards forums that Conan is a Rogue with a few levels of Barbarian. Let's not acknowledge and/or argue over THIS though, I'll try to ellaborate on my personal reasoning.)

Chances are, someone in the wilderness wouldn't have (8 + int) skill points a level, you might say, but there are things like Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Listen, Spot, Hide, etc. A skillful character is probably a better survivor than a guy who can smash stuff, in all honesty (especially in a world where there are magical beasts in the wilds, sneak attack could get you somewhere). Regardless, I'm mostly trying to say, that even if you didn't want to make a Survivor prestige class, "survivor" is arguably an archetype, and it could be represented by a feat chain (or a scaling feat, or whatever).

[lesser_minion]

That might be the case, but I don't have any intention of making barbarian into 'big guy who smashes stuff'.

The rules I have in mind for archetypes tie heavily into skills (they are intended to replace the entire concept of class or cross-class skills). They also provide me with an excuse to provide fewer powers per class without forcing everyone to multiclass.

[Lord_Gareth]

This is opposite of what Lord Gareth is talking about. Why's locking a class into a mould bad again? If you want to do X, play Xer class. Why should all classes be able to X, even if to a lesser extent? Flexibility is overrated, just like game balance. And mechanical uniqeness (though I'd say nothing very necessary) is (or rather will be) there thanks to powers

I'm not saying that all classes should be able to do X. I'm saying that genericness is the bane of roleplaying and inflexibility is the death of creativity. Imagine, for example, all the different warrior traditions that could fall under the label of fighter: knights, samurai, vikings, spartans, roman legionaires, mongol warriors, the hessians, the list goes on and on. All of these warriors fought completely differently, and yet all of them are fighters.

Shall I list rogues? Barbarians? Wizards? There's a lot of varations on any theme, and properly-done choices allow players to not only represent these archetypes, but to build their own, which, I might remind you, was what D&D started with in the first place.

Generic roles are the bane of class-based roleplaying. That is all.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not saying that all classes should be able to do X. I'm saying that genericness is the bane of roleplaying and inflexibility is the death of creativity. Imagine, for example, all the different warrior traditions that could fall under the label of fighter: knights, samurai, vikings, spartans, roman legionaires, mongol warriors, the hessians, the list goes on and on. All of these warriors fought completely differently, and yet all of them are fighters.

Shall I list rogues? Barbarians? Wizards? There's a lot of varations on any theme, and properly-done choices allow players to not only represent these archetypes, but to build their own, which, I might remind you, was what D&D started with in the first place.

Generic roles are the bane of class-based roleplaying. That is all.

True. But most things can be accomplished by combining things. For example, one of the "base" classes I had in mind is the Skirmisher. Skirmishers are high-damage, quick moving characters that can dart around the battlefield and quickly take down a defenseless foe. So yes, it's a bit generic.

But the Skirmisher/Barbarian isn't. Nor is the Skirmisher/Swashbuckler or the Fighter/Barbarian. They all have their own "roles" that share some qualities, but their style is completely different. True, both Barbarians are a little feral in nature, but they're still distinct characters. That's what I have in mind.

In your example, they are all Fighters...they all excel at combat. But one is a Fighter/Knight, one a Fighter/Samurai, and so on. The Secondary Path and their choice of feats and weapons reflects their different styles.

Prestige Classes further define this, although I'm not yet certain which half of the progression they will occupy.

Does this sound customizable enough for you? :smallbiggrin:

[Zovc]

I'm really liking the sound of the Skirmisher... if your playtesting group needs a Kobold Skirmisher (I know it wants one), look no further. Nope, no threats here.

I feel like multiclassing and prestige classes will provide more than enough versatility. Prestige classes are supposed to make a character fit into a very specific archetype, I think, where as core classes are supposed to represent a more broad character concept. By combining two (or three, possibly) classes, I think you should be able to make the character that you are conceptualizing. If the current classes do not support the character you want, perhaps a "splat book" containing new classes and mechanics (Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, and/or Tome of Battle) is in order.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay...I know I'm offering up a bunch of different stuff here, but here's a first draft of the Skirmisher. The Skirmisher relies on speed and evasiveness, as well as being in the right place at the right time, so many of its abilities deal with Advantage or Opportunity Actions. It's also currently short at least one ability.

That said, does this seem like a good base for a variety of different class options?


Skirmisher

Hit Points: 8
At-Wills Known: 3
Armor Proficiency: Light
Weapon Proficiency: Adept in all Simple and Martial weapons, Skilled in any 1 weapon.
Skill Points: ???

Table ??-??: The Skirmisher
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Advantageous Strike

2nd|
Fleet of Foot

3rd|
Opportunist

4th|
Quicksilver Motion

5th|
Opportunistic Exploitation

6th|
????

7th|
First Strike[/table]

Advantageous Strike: Whenever a Skirmisher has Advantage over her target, she gains a +3 Class Bonus to damage.
Fleet of Foot: A Skirmisher gains the Fleet of Foot At-Will Power.
Fleet of Foot ― Skirmisher At-Will
With a bit of skill and luck you can dance about the battlefield untouched.
Free Reaction ― Adjust, Evasion
Trigger: An opponent misses you with an attack made on an Opportunity
Action.
Target: Personal.
Effect: You Shift 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters) and gain a Stacking +1 Dodge
bonus to Defense versus Opportunity Actions until the end of the turn.

Opportunist: A Skirmisher gains the Opportunist At-Will Power.
Opportunist ― Skirmisher At-Will
When your opponent is distracted, you seize the moment and attack.
Immediate Reaction ― Untyped
Trigger: An adjacent opponent takes damage from an attack.
Target: The damaged opponent.
Effect: Your opponent provokes an immediate Opportunity Action
from you.

Quicksilver Motion: The first time a Skirmisher would provoke an Opportunity Action in a round, she may instead choose to not provoke an Opportunity Action. She may use this ability once per round.

Opportunistic Exploitation: A Skirmisher may add her Advantageous Strike damage whenever she takes an Opportunity Action, even if she does not have Advantage.
First Strike: A Skirmisher may always roll Initiative in a Surprise Round, and is considered to have rolled a 20 on her Initiative in all subsequent rounds. If the Skirmisher already has the ability to roll Initiative in a Surprise Round, she instead gains a +4 bonus to Initiative in the Surprise Round, and is considered to have rolled a 20 on her Initiative in all subsequent rounds.

[unosarta]

class ability powers=bad in my book. you want the powers to be the customization of a class. by giving them a power as a class ability, you deny them that ability as a choice.

but i guess i was imagining the G6+1's class abilities as static abilities, that boost the strength and flexibility of the classes powers.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

class ability powers=bad in my book. you want the powers to be the customization of a class. by giving them a power as a class ability, you deny them that ability as a choice.

but i guess i was imagining the G6+1's class abilities as static abilities, that boost the strength and flexibility of the classes powers.

This was the case, and could still be, but I ran into a problem: Given the mechanics used, so many Class Abilities (like Opportunist, which, honestly, is a Class Ability pulled from 3.5) worked much better when worded in the Power format. I guess it blurs the lines between the two, but I think it works. Otherwise all seven abilities are static, which is rather boring in my mind.

[Zovc]

Why does the Skirmisher get one ability every level, but fighters get two?

Make sure that if Skirmishers get At-Will powers from their class that no other class can.

Perhaps an ability for the skirmishers could be a free shift per encounter? The shift could be used to close a distance, or to get out of a sticky situation.

Or maybe the skirmisher can get a scout-like bonus when (s)he moves at least 10-feet in a turn?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Why does the Skirmisher get one ability every level, but fighters get two?

Make sure that if Skirmishers get At-Will powers from their class that no other class can.

Perhaps an ability for the skirmishers could be a free shift per encounter? The shift could be used to close a distance, or to get out of a sticky situation.

Or maybe the skirmisher can get a scout-like bonus when (s)he moves at least 10-feet in a turn?


1: Because that fighter was made before the idea to split up classes into a Base class and a Path.

And yes, those At-Wills are Skirmisher exclusive. :smallbiggrin:

[Zovc]

What you're describing is almost gestalt-sounding. Are you saying that the way things are now is, I'll choose a class and a path separately? So, I can be a "Skirmisher/Path" now?

[Pronounceable]

Imagine, for example, all the different warrior traditions that could fall under the label of fighter: knights, samurai, vikings, spartans, roman legionaires, mongol warriors, the hessians, the list goes on and on. All of these warriors fought completely differently, and yet all of them are fighters.

Assuming a grand total of 4 fighting classes (fighter, brute, skirmisher, ranger) each with a specific role:
Knight: Fighter specializing in heavy armor, swords, shields and heavy mounts
Samurai: Fighter and/or Brute specializing in light armor and bastard swords
Vikings: Brute specializing in medium armor, axes and loot/rape/pillage
Spartan: Fighter and/or Brute specializing in light armor, spears and formation combat
Legionaire: Fighter specializing in medium armor, swords and formation combat
Mongol: Ranger and/or Skirmisher specializing in archery and light mounts
Hessian: Ranger specializing in muskets

If each weapon/armor/etc specialization is sufficiently different, they'll all be fighting completely differently. If you're fluffily interested in being eg: a more stand and fighty viking, you can always be a fighter. If then you think you aren't hitting hard enough, multiclassing into brute would be available.

Any fluff can be applied to any class. That was the point of genericness/blandness of 3E fighter. Getting millions of feats was supposed to make a fighter be able to become any of the above. And it works too, assuming you don't care much about variance in available actions. Here, if specialization/mastery powers/feats/abilities are different enough, it'll work both fluffily and crunchily.

I don't like PrCs as well. They should be optional, fluffy little things that provide little more than a basic class does. What they do provide should be mostly flavored versions of generic stuff, maybe with one extra gimmick thrown in.


Generic roles are the bane of class-based roleplaying.
Maybe, but millions of specifically flavored classes (which may or may not be constantly trying to one up the ones before it) and trillions of various combinations of those is the bane of gaming.

Less is more.



In your example, they are all Fighters...they all excel at combat. But one is a Fighter/Knight, one a Fighter/Samurai, and so on. The Secondary Path and their choice of feats and weapons reflects their different styles.

Prestige Classes further define this, although I'm not yet certain which half of the progression they will occupy.

Does this sound customizable enough for you? :smallbiggrin:

That sounds too customizable for me.

Why'd anyone need that much customization? Gamers are usually content to play an archetype or at most a dualclass concept. Those who aren't (like someone who wants to be a greatsword throwing goblin tiger rider), can always homebrew stuff (but one who wants to play a Fighter2/Sorcerer9/Assasin2/Red Wizard4 is too dumb to live). That degree of customization in "core" is mainly needless. Not to mention, the possibility of a Fighter3/Swashbuckler3+Dashing Swordsman existing is a path to
FAIL

In addition, base classes need finishing. Then secondary paths, which suspiciously looks like PrCs, need to be made. Considering the number of fighter (not to mention rogue and especially cleric and wizard) concepts that exist, that'll be a large number. And finally PrCs, however they differ from paths, will no doubt be numerous as well. The amount of work required to come up with all that is enormous. The work to tweak and tune it is even more so. Unless we get a very large number people working on G7 (extremely unlikely), it'll never get finished.

Less is more.


Skirmisher looks well. First Strike seems a bit excessive, but at that level it's gotta be fine.

Have you forgotten encounters and dailies? You're not gonna keep those exclusive to paths/PrCs, are you?

[Zovc]

I approve of the above post.

Two abilities every level may be a bit much, perhaps two every other level, and on the opposite levels you get 1 class ability and a feat? Like this, you have some control over how your character is developing (with the feats), and you are being able to specialize your character at the same time. A grand total of 3-4 feats by level 7 doesn't seem that bad.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alright. Due to some very well thought out and persuasive arguments, consider PrCs cut for now. After all, most concepts should be able to work from level 1. So the standard build, as it currently stands, is a Class/Path, where Class is a generic concept, and Path is a more specialized idea...

Like the Barbarian, for example. Not a Class, but a Path, applied to any class, melee or spellcaster. After all, being a Barbarian isn't about being a melee monster...it's a lifestyle. Mages can be driven by primal emotions just as much as a Fighter can. So here's the Barbarian, ready to be applied to your favorite Skirmisher (or any other) build. It's about as generic as the Barbarian can get, and can duplicate anything from a Primal Warrior to a rash and headstrong Mage.


Barbarian Path

Table ??-??: The Barbarian
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Driven by Anger

2nd|
Never Say Die

3rd|
Bloodied Not Beaten

4th|
Enduring Fury

5th|
Indomitable Rage

6th|
Grievous Wound

7th|
Rage Transcending[/table]

Driven by Anger: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she gains 2 Temporary Hit Points.

Never Say Die: A Barbarian may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. She still dies when her Hit Point total falls below a negative value equal to her Constitution score. If she already has this ability (from the Orc racial ability Fight Past Death, for example), she instead gains 5 Hit Points.

Bloodied Not Beaten: When Wounded, a Barbarian is only treated as being Wounded if it would be beneficial to her to be so. For example, attacks that trigger additional effects against a Wounded target do not trigger those effects against a Wounded Barbarian, but attacks made by a Wounded Barbarian that trigger additional effects if the Initiator is Wounded do trigger those effects.

Enduring Fury: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she adds 1 round to the duration of all effects of the Power. Bonuses gained in this way do not stack unless the Power specifies a Stacking Bonus.

Indomitable Rage: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword makes a Saving Throw, she may instead make two Saving Throws and take the better result.

Grievous Wound: The Barbarian learns the Grievous Wound At-Will Power.

Grievous Wound ― Barbarian At-Will
The primal force behind your attack leaves your opponent reeling in pain.
Swift Reaction ― Offensive Augmentation
Trigger: You score a Critical Hit.
Target: The victim of your Critical Hit.
Effect: The target becomes stunned for 1 round.

Rage Transcending: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword would suffer a Status Ailment, she may instead ignore the effect until she is no longer gaining a Power Bonus from a Power with the Rage keyword. At this time, any and all Status Ailments so delayed take effect as if the Barbarian had just received them.

[Vadin]

Just gonna throw around some ideas here to see what thoughts they stir up in your head, Djinn. Perhaps Paths could be like Archetypes in Serpents and Sewers? They give you special things at certain levels that flavor your other class(es). Every character would have a Class and a Path. They could change Class and Multiclass, but Paths are a part of your character that you keep.

Paths wouldn't have abilities that are as powerful as class abilities, but they would enhance/expand class powers. For example, a Path might increase every instance of Push X in a class power to Push X+1. On the power level of extra racial abilities, maybe with a few extras like changing damage types or ranges a little.

So, Barbarian? Skirmisher/Fighter with the Savage Path. Very feral druid? Druid with the Savage Path. Swordmage? Fighter with a level or 2 in Wizard and the Arcane Path or Wizard with a few levels in Fighter/Skirmisher and the Knight Path. Paths could be a sort of unifying concept for multiclassed characters or enhanced flavoring (in fluff and crunch) for single-classes characters.

EDIT: Scratch that, you described this exactly. I shouldn't have eaten dinner halfway through typing a post. :smalltongue:

[Pronounceable]

Alright. Due to some very well thought out and persuasive arguments, consider PrCs cut for now. After all, most concepts should be able to work from level 1. So the standard build, as it currently stands, is a Class/Path, where Class is a generic concept, and Path is a more specialized idea...
Yay, I win! I'm not done yet tho. (man, don't I have anything else to do these days?)


Like the Barbarian, for example. Not a Class, but a Path, applied to any class, melee or spellcaster. After all, being a Barbarian isn't about being a melee monster...it's a lifestyle. Mages can be driven by primal emotions just as much as a Fighter can. So here's the Barbarian, ready to be applied to your favorite Skirmisher (or any other) build. It's about as generic as the Barbarian can get, and can duplicate anything from a Primal Warrior to a rash and headstrong Mage.


I know it's subjective, but any X/Y/Z type designation grates on my nerves. It's the slash. And as it stands, a path is merely a collection of 7 somewhat fluffy abilities. Which could easily have been 7 different feats/powers that could be taken individually. So breaking such paths into feats would

not only add an additional layer of choice and some mechanical uniqueness to the characters, but also help the player define his/her niche instead of the classpath
(yep, anything to get my way). A fictional player with a fictional concept in mind may like Driven By Anger but find Never Say Die incompatible with his concept and want Got Milk? from "milkman" path instead. Why not let him pick whatever fluffy feat he wants at every level than forcing him to take the whole package? He could always take them all if he so wants.

If abolishing paths and giving everyone one "fluffy feat" at every level, then there's "flexibility" (*snort*), PCs gain two abilities per level (plus whatever power gainage there is), and no one has a slash in their description. It's full of win for everyone involved.
...

Also I'd prefer to see the completed set of base classes and basic abilities, the main course, before real effort is spent on desserts such as fluff feats, paths, PrCs or whatever else you'd care to throw in in the name of customization.

Also also: The fate of encounters and dailies?

[Zovc]

Never Say Die: A Barbarian may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. She still dies when her Hit Point total falls below a negative value equal to her Constitution score. If she already has this ability (from the Orc racial ability Fight Past Death, for example), she instead gains 5 Hit Points.

This seems to be the only ability barbarians get that is "overtly useful" to casters from what I can see. Naturally, I have some issues with the wording (didn't I even have problems with my own wordings?), but I do have a suggestion. Here's how I think Never Say Die should be worded, provided it works with Fight Past Death the way I think it does:

"A Barbarian may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. She still dies when her Hit Point total falls below her negative Constitution score. If she already has this ability (examples), she instead can continue fighting until her hit points fall below (-1 * [5 + Constitution score])."

I'm having trouble "simply" representing the mathematical behavior that I think we both understand, but the way you worded the "combined ability" leads me to believe that any time the character would die, (s)he gains 5 hit points.

Back to the "only overtly useful" statement I made, I don't know what kind of rage powers you'll have that benefit spellcasters, but I feel like I was led to believe that rage powers have to do with improving your melee prowess.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Back to the "only overtly useful" statement I made, I don't know what kind of rage powers you'll have that benefit spellcasters, but I feel like I was led to believe that rage powers have to do with improving your melee prowess.

Well, first things first, those Rage powers were written before the new mechanic, and will be rewritten to function with Attacks, rather than Martial attacks. But let's take a look.


Driven by Anger: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she gains 2 Temporary Hit Points.

Extra Hit Points? Always good.

Never Say Die: A Barbarian may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. She still dies when her Hit Point total falls below a negative value equal to her Constitution score. If she already has this ability (from the Orc racial ability Fight Past Death, for example), she instead gains 5 Hit Points.

As you said...a benefit even to casters.

Bloodied Not Beaten: When Wounded, a Barbarian is only treated as being Wounded if it would be beneficial to her to be so. For example, attacks that trigger additional effects against a Wounded target do not trigger those effects against a Wounded Barbarian, but attacks made by a Wounded Barbarian that trigger additional effects if the Initiator is Wounded do trigger those effects.

Considering some spells will get better when you are Wounded, this isn't bad. That said, far more enemy power will rely on this mechanic, making you immune or resistant to several such things.

Enduring Fury: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she adds 1 round to the duration of all effects of the Power. Bonuses gained in this way do not stack unless the Power specifies a Stacking Bonus.

Again, Rage will be reworked.

Indomitable Rage: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword makes a Saving Throw, she may instead make two Saving Throws and take the better result.

Two Saving Throws? Good for ANYONE.

Grievous Wound: The Barbarian learns the Grievous Wound At-Will Power.


Grievous Wound ― Barbarian At-Will
The primal force behind your attack leaves your opponent reeling in pain.
Swift Reaction ― Offensive Augmentation
Trigger: You score a Critical Hit.
Target: The victim of your Critical Hit.
Effect: The target becomes stunned for 1 round.

This doesn't need a martial attack...any Critical hit will do, and spells can crit.


Rage Transcending: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword would suffer a Status Ailment, she may instead ignore the effect until she is no longer gaining a Power Bonus from a Power with the Rage keyword. At this time, any and all Status Ailments so delayed take effect as if the Barbarian had just received them.

Again, rage will be reworked to work with any attack. That, and this is just a powerful ability.

[Sho]

I generally feel that the original chassis that was "G6" was simple yet effective.

Within the first six levels (or seven levels, including the zero level), it proved simple for people to balance the classes given or their own customized abilities for homebrewed classes.

The zero level was also something pretty neat in that it was potentially a hero not yet a hero, the signs of youth or even ignorance until the hero awakened to his calling or studied that which s/he wanted to be.

I'll keep on coming by to read more and more, though. I am simply not enchanted with the 4e-esque way things have taken a turn.

[Meek]

I like what I'm seeing with the Barbarian. I also like the idea of the "powers" being modifications to a standard attack rather than being THE attack wrapped in a package. Or at least that's sort of what I interpret here. Will there ever be feats or abilities which let you stack two such powers atop a standard attack? Or would that perhaps be too unbalancing?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Rough draft, short At-Wills, Encounter Powers, etc. as well as a single class ability...The Assassin!


Assassin Path

Table ??-??: The Assassin
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Stalk the Prey

2nd|
Strike the Veins

3rd|
Fade from Sight

4th|
Murderous Precision

5th|
Poison Expertise

6th|
???

7th|
End to Suffering[/table]

Stalk the Prey: By spending a Standard Action doing nothing but observing a creature, an Assassin gains a cumulative +1 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value on the next attack she makes against that creature. Each additional consecutive Standard Action spent in this manner increases the bonus received by +1, to a maximum of +3.

Strike the Veins: Whenever an Assassin deals Damage to a target she has Advantage over, the target gains persistent 1 (bleeding) for a number of rounds equal to the Assassin’s Level.

Fade From Sight: The Assassin learns the Fade From Sight At-Will Power.

Fade From Sight ― Assassin At-Will
Your finely honed skills allow you to effortlessly blend into crowds
or shadows.
Swift Reaction ― Offensive Augmentation
Trigger: You roll a Hide Check.
Target: Personal.
Effect: Roll a second Hide Check, and take the best result.

Murderous Precision: Whenever an Assassin gains at least a +1 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value against a creature through the use of her Stalk the Prey ability, she deals an additional +3 Damage on that attack for each +1 of her Perception Bonus (so an Assassin gaining a +3 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value deals an additional +9 Damage if her attack is a success).

Poison Expertise: Whenever a creature makes a Saving Throw against any poison utilized by an Assassin (whether contacted by injection, inhalation, contact, or a weapon attack), the Assassin adds a +2 Expertise Bonus to the Save Difficulty of the poison.

???: ???

End to Suffering: Whenever an Assassin scores a Critical Hit on an unwounded creature, the creature’s Hit Point immediately drop to it’s wounded value, unless the attack would bring it to a Hit Point total lower than it’s wounded value, in which case the attack functions normally. Whenever an Assassin scores a Critical Hit on a wounded creature, the creature immediately drops to -1 Hit Points and is dying, unless the attack would bring it to fewer than -1 Hit Points, in which case the attack functions normally.

[Meek]

I can't quite comment as I don't quite feel comfortable that I know enough about the level of balance you're going for (difficult to judge given it's between two enormous extremes) but this was on the second page and I thought I'd give it a bump.

[Maerok]

Need a 6th level ability?

Not sure which of this applies to G7...

Assassin 6 Attack
Night's Edge
Encounter Power
Full Round Action
Area: 30 foot line
Target: Up to three enemies in area
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity
Effect: The Assassin can attack along this path silently and move to any point along the line without having to make a Hide check to remain hidden.