PDA

View Full Version : 4E Striker Min/Max Help



mage1337
2009-04-21, 08:00 PM
Hey all,

I'm looking to create a Striker for a new 4E Campaign. Unfortunately, although I have extensive experience with 2, 3, and 3.5 editions, I'm entirely new to 4E so I'm having a difficult time figuring out the merits of one Striker class versus another. So I figured I'd post on this board looking for help, specifically:

1) Assuming I don't care about my character's survivability, or related factors, and only want to maximize damage output, what is the best Striker class to play? Can someone post a damage maxing build for this class, at end of heroic and end of paragon tiers (and end of epic, if you're generous)?

2) Is there a known striker min-max build that can one shot non-minion monsters of the same level at the heroic and paragon tiers? That can one shot solos of the same level?

What I'm really interested in is the min/maxing advice. Obviously I know enough about D&D to build a decent 4E Striker - but I want the best. Lastly, assume I have access to all published sources for the purpose of character creation (but bonus points if only published books are used).

Mando Knight
2009-04-21, 08:10 PM
Maximize damage throughput? Play a Rogue, using either a Dagger or Rapier, former for accuracy, latter for higher [W] dice, and take the Brutal Scoundrel feature for maximum offensive power (+Str to SA damage). Take the Backstabber feat. Multiclass into Ranger for the Hunter's Quarry damage. Get a Warlord and a Fighter as your best friends to ensure that you've got a flanker on every turn, and so that the warlord provides nice bonuses when you use an Action Point.

OHKOing same-level Solos isn't possible at most levels without a critical hit on a daily with a magic weapon that has a d12 critical bonus. Elites are almost as hard, and will also require criticals. Even normal monsters can take a critical from most powers and stay standing. A Rogue with Backstabber SA damage is necessary for OHKOing high-level enemies.

NPCMook
2009-04-21, 08:15 PM
Strikers usually have a little extra class feature that allows them to deal more damage. A Rogue's sneak attack allows him to deal an extra 2d6(d8 with a feat), when he has combat advantage. The Ranger has his Hunter's Quarry which allows him to deal an extra 1d6(d8 with feat) to the closest target to him. Warlocks have their Warlocks Curse, Sorcerers add either their Str or Dex Mod, Avenger's roll twice to hit, Barbarian's have Rage, and lots of charging.

Depending on how you feel, its all about how you want to feel for the character, do you want his power to come from his training and skill? His power to be unleashed through the raw force of Arcana? A little divine help? Or use your primal instincts to beat your enemy into submission?

You will deal a lot of damage, but not one-shot anything(I'm sure someone will correct me)

4e is about balance, while in Epic there are some builds that revolve around a certain Epic Destiny, you will usually have to work tactically with the rest of the group to bring down the enemies

tcrudisi
2009-04-21, 08:17 PM
Mando is correct. Rogues, over the course of multiple encounters, do the most damage. However, if you want very high burst damage, I'd go with a Barbarian.

I do not like to use the words "can not be done." I always live by the motto of, "Just because I can't do it does not mean that someone else can not do it." So with that said -- I do not think it is possible to one-shot most monsters once you hit the Paragon tier. Heck, I saw a level 1 Barbarian do 63 points of damage in one combat round (and that wasn't max) .... without the action point. He still didn't one-shot the monster.

There is one big difference between all the previous editions of D&D and 4e: teamwork. In 3.x, I could build you up a character that can easily go around one-shotting every monster. In 4e, it is all about teamwork. If you get cut off from your allies, or you try to go about it alone, you are only asking for character death.

This should help you out, though: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1148396 That is a link for the Rogue optimization board. It is definitely a worth-while resource and one worth using. If you follow their advise, you can build any Rogue, any level.

Mando Knight
2009-04-21, 08:19 PM
Oh, wait. I just remembered. Avenger (PHB II) of Tempus (FRPG). Massive damage output with a once/encounter auto-crit (Righteous Rage of Tempus, FR PG) and a Vorpal High-Crit weapon. Take Ranger or Warlock MC for even more damage.

Asbestos
2009-04-21, 09:31 PM
Threads like this always rub me the wrong way, but I do not know the specifics of the game the OP is in.

Anyway... if you're looking for burst damage (which it seems the OP is) then you want a barbarian. Who are strikers not because they charge a lot (cause unless they deliver the finishing blow often they don't charge) but because their powers throw around damage like nobodies business and of things like Rage Strike. If you do go barbarian make sure you pick up Storm of Blades at level 13. Its a great way to do a ton of damage 1/encounter.

Ninetail
2009-04-22, 04:12 AM
1) Assuming I don't care about my character's survivability, or related factors, and only want to maximize damage output, what is the best Striker class to play? Can someone post a damage maxing build for this class, at end of heroic and end of paragon tiers (and end of epic, if you're generous)?


It depends on the kind of damage.

A rogue will offer the highest consistent single-target damage per round.

A barbarian will offer the biggest burst.

A sorcerer will offer high consistent damage with the best choice of targets -- he can attack from range, and his extra damage is not reliant on a mechanic like Quarry or Curse that limits his choice of target.



2) Is there a known striker min-max build that can one shot non-minion monsters of the same level at the heroic and paragon tiers? That can one shot solos of the same level?


Any striker with the right gear using the right power (except maybe warlock) can potentially one-shot a heroic-level monster, if the attack is a crit and the monster is not a meatshield. I'm not sure the same is possible at paragon tier, and I doubt anyone could one-shot a solo. A barbarian probably has the easiest time of doing so (aside from the Tempus avenger build, which is cheese).

No striker can expect to pull this off more than once per combat, though. By the time the striker is high enough level to get gear and dailies that would seem to make it more likely, the monsters have advanced enough that they have too many hp to take out in one unassisted attack, generally.

3. If you really only want to min-max for effectiveness, and ignore everything else, and there's at least one striker already, forget about a striker and play a controller or leader. You won't be downing them personally, but you'll be responsible for your teammates taking them out with ease.

Hal
2009-04-22, 06:13 AM
I dunno. We have an archer ranger in our party, and he regularly dishes out silly amounts of damage with a great bow and twin strike.

Granted, that's only 2d12 (plus bonuses), but from an at-will power that's quite respectable.

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-22, 06:46 AM
Maximum damage output, eh?

Well, naturally, my first thought was rogue because rogues have the best damage boosting class feature - sneak attack. Brutal Scoundrel seems like the best rogue tactic for maximizing damage output, so I went with that. It also makes the race choice easy as well: Half Orc for the ideal ability scores. Bugbear also has the right ability scores, and the broken "oversized" race feature would be nice, but there are no racial feats for Bugbears, and you need DM permission, so I figured I'd leave that one alone. Half-Orcs have some good damage boosting stuff anyhow. Alot of it triggers on being bloodied, but since you are eschewing survivability in favor of offensive nastiness, I figure you will be bloodied often enough to use it.

So, for rogues the way to maximize damage is to make sure you can apply your sneak attack damage as often as possible. Gaining combat advantage is easy enough, usually, and there are various utility powers that can help with that. Assuming you can always maintain combat advantage all you have to do to get your 3d8+STR (paragon, backstabber) as often as possible is hit every round. My first instinct was to start you out with 20 Dex and grab every feat that would boost your chance to hit, but then I had another idea. You only have to hit with one attack every round to get your sneak attack damage, so the best way to maximize your sneak attack usage is to make multiple attacks per round. A high chance to hit with one attack has a lower chance to apply sneak attack damage than a moderate chance to hit with two attacks. Too bad rogues don't have a multiple attack at-will power.

But rangers do. Others have suggested multiclassing ranger to get the Hunter's Quarry (but that's just +1d6 once per encounter, low priority after all the other damage boosting feats) but I say in for a penny in for a pound. Why not paragon multiclass into ranger and get as many powers that grant you multiple attacks per round as possible? Why not indeed; here is what I came up with:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Ugarth, level 20
Half-Orc, Rogue, Paragon Multiclassing
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 11, Dex 24, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 11.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.


AC: 34 Fort: 30 Reflex: 33 Will: 25
HP: 118 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 29

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth, Thievery, Intimidate, Bluff, Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception.

FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
2: Backstabber
4: Two-Blade Warrior
6: Novice Power
8: Acolyte Power
10: Adept Power
11: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
12: Roundabout Charge
14: Slaying Action
16: Unrelenting Assault
18: Anger Unleashed
20: Strength From Pain

POWERS
1, At-Will: Piercing Strike
1, At-Will: Riposte Strike (retrained to Twin Strike at Paragon Multiclassing)
1, Encounter: Torturous Strike
1, Daily: Precise Incision
2, Utility: Adaptable Flanker (retrained to Unbalancing Parry at Acolyte Power)
3, Encounter: Nasty Backswing (retrained to Ruffling Sting at Novice Power)
5, Daily: Driving Assault
6, Utility: Vexing Flanker
7, Encounter: Circling Predator
9, Daily: Not It (retrained to Two-Wolf Pounce at Adept Power)
10, Utility: Close Quarters
13, Encounter: Cunning Cyclone (replaces Nasty Backswing)
15, Daily: Vicious Cooperation (replaces Precise Incision)
16, Utility: Raise the Stakes
17, Encounter: Audacious Strike (retrained to Two-Weapon Eviscerate at Novice Power) (replaces Torturous Strike)
19, Daily: Uncanny Ricochet (replaces Driving Assault)
11, Encounter: Jackal Ploy
12, Utility: Expeditious Stride
19, Daily: Cruel Cage of Steel

ITEMS
Magic Rapier +5, Dancing Rapier +4, Elven Cloak +4, Flaying Gloves (paragon tier), Assassin's Slippers (paragon tier), Feyleather Armor of Night +4
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======


Notes on Ability Scores:

You may be wondering why I put that spare point in Wisdom. When selecting powers I was able to completely avoid rogue powers that use CHA, but couldn't completely avoid ranger powers that use WIS.

Notes on Powers:

All of the attacks in this build (except your rogue at-will) give you more than one opportunity per round to apply sneak attack damage to your target(s). Most grant multiple attack rolls on the same target. Of the ones that don't do that, they all grant extra opportunities to apply sneak attack damage in other ways:

Cunning Cyclone is a close burst that lets you spread your sneak attack damage out over multiple targets, if you have CA on all of them. It's not clear from the power description, but I think your full STR mod damage is applied to all of them (Brutal Scoundrel). When you are in a situation where you can have CA against 2 or more enemies simultaneously, this can add up for some massive damage.

Two-Wolf Pounce forces you to attack two different targets, but lets you shift 2 squares before both attacks, so it should be fairly easy to have CA for both attacks.

Vicious Cooperation is a single attack, but lets an ally make a basic attack and if either of you hit you get to apply sneak attack damage.

Uncanny Ricochet lets you make a second attack (ranged 3) with CA if you miss.

All of the Utility powers help you arrange to have CA is some way (shifting, sliding, etc).

Notes on Feats:

Rapier Proficiency and Backstabber are both self explanatory. You can drop the rapier and use a pair of daggers instead for less damage but higher chance to hit. I didn't because with all the multiple attack powers, anything that boosts chance to hit is going to start experiencing diminishing returns on damage, because you can only get one sneak attack per round. I didn't do the math to confirm, but I think duel wielding rapiers will give higher output than daggers.

Having to take all 4 multiclass feats to qualify for paragon multiclassing is rough. One way to lessen the pain in Heroic tier is to take different feats at those levels (like Weapon Focus or Anger Unleashed), and then retrain them at the last possible level so you will have all of them at level 11. Remember, you can retrain your lvl 10 feat to Adept power at level 11 and still qualify.

At level 11 I figured it was time for Weapon Focus, because the bonus increases and at this point most of your powers are multi-attack.

Roundabout Charge might be a useful way to get CA if you suddenly find yourself standing on a pile of corpses too far from the action to get there with a single move action. Whether you should take this or not depends on how much it comes up.

Unrelenting Assault is a sneaky way to get your sneak attack damage even if you miss on all your attacks, once per encounter.

Anger Unleashed and Strength from Pain are an awesome combo that will let you do massive damage after you are bloodied. Save your action point for when this happens (and get two sneak attacks with Slaying Action). If possible, arrange to become bloodied at the beginning of your own turn (moving into an aura, bloodclaw weapon, etc), so you get 2 full turns of this benefit. If your defender is just so freaking awesome that you never get hit (or the DM is a fool who attacks the defender even when he doesn't have to) these feats may need to be replaced.

Notes on Gear:

Obviously I have no idea what sort of stuff you you will have by level 20, so I just used the regular rules for equipping a character staring above level 1. Some of the stuff I got him is stuff you might want to put on your wish list.

A Dancing Rapier in your off hand lets you get free attacks (rules not clear on if your Sneak Attack damage would be applied if it hits) if you don't use it. Several of your attacks don't require you to attack with your off-hand weapon, so this will give you more damage and possibly a back-up way to get sneak attacks if your DM rules that it can.

Elven Cloaks are a mainstay of rogues, for obvious reasons. Combined with the Armor of Night, You should be able to stealth in combat fairly easily.

Assassin's Slippers make flanking in combat as easy as pie. (Never understood that phrase - have you ever tired to make a pie? Not easy)

Flaying Gloves are another mainstay of rogues. Use the power on bosses who are likely to be alive for many rounds.

Epic Destiny?

Demigod is good for more STR and DEX. Perfect assassin will let you continue making the most of your sneak attack. Eternal seeker will let you pick up even more multi-attack powers from ranger or other classes. Other possibilities exist, I haven't looked into them that closely. You qualify for the awesome (and difficult to qualify for) Martial Archetype destiny, but the reason everyone wants it is for it's lvl 24 feature, which doesn't apply to most of the powers you have.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-22, 07:02 AM
What I'm really interested in is the min/maxing advice. Obviously I know enough about D&D to build a decent 4E Striker - but I want the best. Lastly, assume I have access to all published sources for the purpose of character creation (but bonus points if only published books are used).

I'm going to disagree with the previous posters.

According to the WOTC charop boards (google is your friend!) the most damaging striker is the ranger, not the rogue.

So your build goes like this: two-blade ranger, use twin strike a lot, take as many static damage modifiers as you can find since they apply to each of your two attacks and use stormwarden PP for another damage boost. Add in avenger multiclass to send your to-hit into the stratosphere.

Note that this also works with two-blade fighters, and it also works with anything else that can get either at will (that is, hybrid/dual classes, and half-elves using their paragon multiclass feat).

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-22, 07:17 AM
I'm going to disagree with the previous posters.

... and it also works with anything else that can get either at will (that is, hybrid/dual classes, ...

That's kind of what I did. The rogue above has twin strike and a bunch of other ranger multi-attack powers, to boot.

NPCMook
2009-04-22, 09:11 AM
Could always go Dual Class Ranger/Rogue using Dex as your primary, and be both good at Ranged and Close Combat

Awesomologist
2009-04-22, 09:56 AM
First of all you may want to search over here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867) for various guides to just about every class as well as interesting builds.

I'm a little sad that you only want to see min/max Strikers, but to each their own I guess.
Since it sounds like you want a lot of straight up damage you can probably ignore Warlocks, Beast Master Rangers, and probably Sorcerers. These are all cool and interesting classes in their own right but it doesn't sound like you want that.

If you want consistent damage every round you'll want a either an Archer Ranger (stick to the multiple attack shots), Two Weapon Ranger, Rogues other than Brutal Scoundrel, or Avenger. You can ignore most of the "Tempus is Broken Cheese" stuff since that doesn't happen until Epic. A lot of classes break at Epic. Things are supposed to break at Epic since your character is after all pursuing immortality. But I digress...

If you want burst damage Barbarian, Brutal Scoundrel Rogue, and Two Weapon Ranger are the ways to go. Notice how Two Weapon Rangers are listed twice? Yeah it's because they're that good at their jobs.

Have fun building your character but be careful. If you're super optimized and the other players aren't you can very quickly unbalance the mood around the table.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-22, 10:09 AM
That's kind of what I did. The rogue above has twin strike and a bunch of other ranger multi-attack powers, to boot.

Oops, I got ninja'd on that one.

Draz74
2009-04-22, 11:42 AM
So your build goes like this: two-blade ranger, use twin strike a lot, take as many static damage modifiers as you can find since they apply to each of your two attacks and use stormwarden PP for another damage boost. Add in avenger multiclass to send your to-hit into the stratosphere.

Is Stormwarden and Avenger MC better than maxing your Wisdom, MCing Fighter, and going Pit Fighter?

Awesomologist
2009-04-22, 01:08 PM
Is Stormwarden and Avenger MC better than maxing your Wisdom, MCing Fighter, and going Pit Fighter?

Depends on what you're going for. Pit Fighter increases your damage by a static amount (your Wis modifier) where as Avenger increases your chance to hit for two rounds. By multiclassing into fighter though you can pick up a few more useful powers and it will allow you to be a second defender for a round or two if needed. Avenger just increases your nova potential.

Thajocoth
2009-04-22, 04:52 PM
Small blade approach:

Half-Elf Brutal Scoundrel Rogue. Pump Str it's highest possible & Dex second. For your Dilletante, take Ranger's Twin Strike. Take Two-Weapon fighting so at Paragon Tier you can take Two-Weapon Opening for a bonus attack when you crit. Take the Daggermaster path to crit on 18-20 and to get a minor action attack you can use right after a crit. There's a feat to make your Dilletante an At-Will. There's another feat to increase your SA dice. There's another to increase your damage with light blades. There's a lot of work for this one, and it results in a lot of math, and is not immediately as powerful. At level 1, you can deal 2d4 + 2d8 + 3*Str Mod = 19 - 39 damage assuming both attacks of Twin Strike hit and you have CA. Very inconsistent damage.

-----

Big weapon approach:

Barbarian with a Mordenkrad. [W] = 2d6 Brutal 1.
So, assuming Rageblood Vigor, Avalanche Strike (Level 1 Encounter) deals 3[W] + Str Mod + Con Mod. For an optimized level 1 character of a +Str + Con race, that's 6d6 Brutal 1 + 5 + 3. That's 20 - 48 damage once per encounter at level 1.

-----

Both of those can kill any level 1 monster at level 1 in 1 hit. They probably scale well, but I haven't done all the math.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-22, 05:12 PM
Is Stormwarden and Avenger MC better than maxing your Wisdom, MCing Fighter, and going Pit Fighter?

Absolutely. In terms of DPR, Stormwarden significantly outperforms Pit Fighter, and being able to use Avenger for additional nova power is just icing on the cake.

Stormwarden (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1137543), 37 DPR at level 11, 107 at 21, 144 at 30. And that's without Avenger.

Pit fighter (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1122864), 33 at level 11, 99 at 21, and 137 at 30

herrhauptmann
2009-04-22, 10:30 PM
I'm a personal fan of using an executioners axe. Brutal 2 (your minimum damage from dice is a 3) and it's a high crit weapon. Make it vicious for an extra d12 per plus (+1 weap does +1d12, +2 does +2d12).

As an option, check out the armor of exploits in Adventurers Vault. You can store an encounter or at will power in teh armor (certain conditions apply), and encounter powers require you to use an action point to do it. But depending on your party makeup, that could be great. Rogue multiclass to ranger, and have the avenger put his oath power into your armor. The oath allows you to roll twice for each attack on your oath target, and choose the one you want. Stack that with hunters quarry, and your rogue abilities. Plus you'll have used an action point, so you'll be going twice that round anyway.

rogue: attack twice. ranger quarry, double your attacks for total of 4. Avenger oath, roll twice for each attack

Was talking with DM about that 2 weeks ago. Now I'm afraid I'll be on the recieving end of that when it's my turn to DM.

btw: What level are you going to be? If it's high level, go bard. You can multiclass as many times as you want.

NecroRebel
2009-04-22, 11:36 PM
As an option, check out the armor of exploits in Adventurers Vault. You can store an encounter or at will power in teh armor (certain conditions apply), and encounter powers require you to use an action point to do it. But depending on your party makeup, that could be great. Rogue multiclass to ranger, and have the avenger put his oath power into your armor. The oath allows you to roll twice for each attack on your oath target, and choose the one you want. Stack that with hunters quarry, and your rogue abilities. Plus you'll have used an action point, so you'll be going twice that round anyway.

rogue: attack twice. ranger quarry, double your attacks for total of 4. Avenger oath, roll twice for each attack

Was talking with DM about that 2 weeks ago. Now I'm afraid I'll be on the recieving end of that when it's my turn to DM.

If he tries something like that, point out that it doesn't work because the Armor of Exploits specifies at-will or encounter martial powers, which the Avenger's Oath isn't. Also, when you spend an action point for a purpose other than gaining an action, you don't get an action as well as that use, so when you use an encounter power stored in the AoE, you don't get to spend an extra action.

Now, you could be a Half-Elf Rogue/Avenger multiclass who took Twin Strike as their Delittante power for two attacks with two attack rolls each. That would give you an extremely good chance to hit and deal Sneak Attack damage (though you normally can still only deal SA once per round).

Of course, Rogues aren't fantastic for multistrike-capable builds since Sneak Attack can only normally be dealt once per round and the fact that they typically wield low-damage weapons, so it really isn't that wonderful anyway.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-22, 11:42 PM
If he tries something like that, point out that it doesn't work because the Armor of Exploits specifies at-will or encounter martial powers, which the Avenger's Oath isn't. Also, when you spend an action point for a purpose other than gaining an action, you don't get an action as well as that use, so when you use an encounter power stored in the AoE, you don't get to spend an extra action.


Really? Putting any encounter/at will would've made it so awesome :(

I shoulda realized you wouldn't get to use the action point for an extra action. Tell me, if I manage to have more than 1 action point, can I still spend one (on a different round) to get the extra action, as well as using 1 to activate the armor?

Colmarr
2009-04-22, 11:52 PM
Tell me, if I manage to have more than 1 action point, can I still spend one (on a different round) to get the extra action, as well as using 1 to activate the armor?

Nope, you can still spend only one AP per encounter. Of course, IIRC there are some specific exceptions to that rule.

Gralamin
2009-04-23, 12:23 AM
Nope, you can still spend only one AP per encounter. Of course, IIRC there are some specific exceptions to that rule.

Namely Warmaster

sleepy
2009-04-23, 05:58 AM
Honestly it will depend on how your DM distributes loot. If you can be assured of the exact magic items you want, two-blade ranger is the clear leader, followed closely by the tempest technique fighter. By maximizing the static mods on your attacks, multiattack powers pull ahead of multi-weapon-dice powers by a fair margin at around level 6-7 and the gap only widens from there. Depending on where you are in Paragon, your paragon path to be either Stormwarden or Pit Fighter. Take encounter powers that are minor action attacks and daily powers that make multiple attacks.

At epic, take the Demigod epic destiny if you feel like abusing infinite loop combos.

As a tip, by RAW (though your DM would be entirely reasonable to houserule against this), the Bloodclaw and Reckless weapon properties both apply to weapon attacks, not attacks with this weapon. So by weilding one of each you can benefit from both with every swing. Doing this will both burn through your hp at an alarming rate and produce an entirely unreasonable boost to damage output. A less suicidal option is to weild two Frost weapons and take Wintertouched and Lasting Frost. Iron Armbands of Power are also mandatory. The Longtooth Shifter's racial power doesn't hurt. Look for every bonus like this and stack them up.

Be aware that following this advice to maximum effect, unless your entire party optimizes very well, will result in a completely overpowered character.

At very low levels (1-5), a Barbarian with a Mordenkrad is probably king. Possibly the brutal scoundrel rogue, depending how easily you find gaining combat advantage.