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View Full Version : 3.0,3.5-Shifter vs. Master of Many Forms



angus cotton
2009-04-21, 09:16 PM
Hello, I am a DM for an epic campaign using 3.5 rules, proximately level 21-24. My campaign has been ongoing for many years in this same campaign world with many different players. Recently, a player from one of my older games came and joined my new game and has decided to play one of his old characters. I was overjoyed at this, as this character was once very central to the campaign world and the storyline, and can be so again.

Remember in this discussion, I want him to play this character and I have no trouble challenging my players at epic levels.

Anyway, here is my problem: The old character was a character he had leveled to 11 Druid/10 Shifter under the old 3.0 rules. I allowed him to update his character as appropriate using the 3.5 Master of Many Forms. It seems, as he was explaining to me, that he lost the ability to change into colossal shapes, constructs, magical beast, outsiders, and undead. He said that colossal shape and magical beast were doable by taking feats, but there is no way for him to get these old abilities under the new system. He asked if he could quest to get the abilities back either through searching for a wish, petitioning a god, or whatever it takes. I was not even aware that the differences existed until he brought them up to me.

A quest might be a little too much because of time constraints, so does anyone see a problem with me just allowing him to burn a feat for each new subtype he wanted to have the ability to turn into? I guess what I really want to know was why these abilites were removed from the Shifter/MoMF in the first place? Any abuse potential there? with undead? with outsiders?

Any help you all could give me would be most appreciated.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 09:22 PM
outsidersBroken.
undeadUseless.
colossal shapesBroken and useless.
constructs...Terribad flavor issues.
magical beastsJust about worth a feat.

ErrantX
2009-04-21, 09:24 PM
2nded.

-X

angus cotton
2009-04-22, 08:23 PM
broken and useless, how?

tyckspoon
2009-04-22, 08:28 PM
broken and useless, how?

Colossal forms are massively powerful thanks to how increasing size works. They also don't fit anywhere. Huge is the biggest size category that is practical for regular use, IME, and you usually don't really want to get bigger than Large unless you have to for some purpose; the bigger size categories just take up too much space in a fight. Hence broken- you'll kill the crud out of things if you ever get the chance to use it- and useless- you'll very rarely find a situation where 'turn Colossal' is a practical option. Maybe if you need to wrestle down the tarrasque.. but in that case you need to be that big to have any chance of success, so not broken.

angus cotton
2009-04-22, 09:54 PM
Colossal forms are massively powerful thanks to how increasing size works. They also don't fit anywhere. Huge is the biggest size category that is practical for regular use, IME, and you usually don't really want to get bigger than Large unless you have to for some purpose; the bigger size categories just take up too much space in a fight. Hence broken- you'll kill the crud out of things if you ever get the chance to use it- and useless- you'll very rarely find a situation where 'turn Colossal' is a practical option. Maybe if you need to wrestle down the tarrasque.. but in that case you need to be that big to have any chance of success, so not broken.

Totally agree, but weighing the good with the bad, I didn't see too much a problem with that. There is a feat to get collosal Wild Shape anyway.

I was really more asking about outsiders and undead? Why are outsiders broken and undead useless (as far as Wild Shaping is concerned)?

tyckspoon
2009-04-22, 10:15 PM
Ah. Outsider forms are generally broken when you get to use their Spell-Like and Supernatural abilities, like you get from Shifter/Master of Forms. They have one of the highest power/HD ratios of the monster types, and it's because a lot of that power is in their ability to function as spellcasters. They're mostly not broken under the terms of normal Wildshaping (there are, as always, a few exceptions, but they fall under the conditions of 'unusually good fighting forms' rather than really broken levels.)

Undead would be useless, I think, because everything you could get by turning into one can be done better by another monster type. Want a good combat form? Turn into a magical beast or a normal animal. Travel? Again, animals, magical beasts, outsiders, elementals. Special abilities? The usual suspects. Mostly what you get from being Undead is increased susceptibility to being Disintegrated. Although, as always, I'm sure there are some exceptional specific undead that provide unique benefits, the type as a whole just isn't that good when you have plants/elementals/outsiders/magical beasts to choose from as well.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-22, 10:19 PM
Wildshape doesn't give you the Supernatural traits of your chosen form unless you have the Assume Supernatural Ability feat. MoMF gives you extraordinary special qualities of the form you take, but that's it.

angus cotton
2009-04-22, 10:26 PM
Ah thank you tyckspoon, that is exactly what I was looking to know.

namo
2009-04-23, 10:07 AM
Undead can be good to have for the immunities it provides.

But yeah, those feats are fine. Wildshape loses to Shapechange big time at high levels.