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Mater
2009-04-22, 11:56 AM
Hi guys,

I am building cleric for dnd campaign. We start on lvl 6 and I was thinking about meele oriented one. We managed to roll godly numbers and we have even convinced our GM to allow them :-D here they are :

str 16
dex 13
con 15
int 14
wis 17
cha 16


he is and probably will stay as pure clr. Domains are good and war. Here are feats I was thinking about.

Nymph's kiss (GM allowed only nerfed version. I had to choose only 2 of those 3 nice thinks. Still worth it I think since I need skill points...I like knowledge skills :-) )
WF(Longsword)...Domain feat
Power atack...human bonus feat
Level3:
Divine Might...Oh I like this one. Since I have 6 turn undead per day :-)
Level6:
Extend spell


Well that is pretty much it. I would appreciate suggestions on feat selection(alter the ones I already have and onwards). Myself I was thinking about quicken spell, persisten spell, Divine shield, extra turning....so many feats and so few to take. And I am sure you will come up with even more. You could suggest few spells to take. That would be nice as well(Core + compendium I guess...I will have to work on my diplomacy check to convince GM :smallbiggrin:)

Thank you all guys in advance. Mater

Gorbash
2009-04-22, 12:07 PM
he is and probably will stay as pure clr.

Why? It gets you absolutely nothing. ANY cleric prestige class with full casting is better than just cleric. If you want to make him fighty, Ordained Champion is too good to pas up.

Mater
2009-04-22, 12:20 PM
Well I thanks for quick reply. He is nice I must admit, but I wanna stay at max caster lvl as well (forgot to write it sorry). Also I would like to keep my turning and there are very few PrCs that do that...

mikej
2009-04-22, 12:22 PM
Complete Divine available?

If soo, i'd go the DMM route.

Planning ( CW; Extend Spell ) & War Domain

Then take Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell], after that take a few Extra Turnings to aid the DMM cost.

As for spell wise, nothing wrong with persist'd Divine Power + Divine Favor. Lesser Vigor, Mass is also pretty good. My first-hand experience with this class is fairly limited, just stated a observation from my friend's cleric.

Gorbash
2009-04-22, 12:25 PM
Well I thanks for quick reply. He is nice I must admit, but I wanna stay at max caster lvl as well (forgot to write it sorry). Also I would like to keep my turning and there are very few PrCs that do that...

Well, if loss of CL is the only worry, then you just have to take Practised Spellcaster and you're done.

Radiant Servant of Pelor, Bone Knight and Ordained Champion all have turning. And that's just off the top of my head. Sure the latter two lose a few spellcasting levels, but they get tremendous buffs in terms of combat strength. And there is no reason whatsoever NOT to take Radiant Servant of Pelor.

Douglas
2009-04-22, 12:26 PM
Advancing Turn Undead only matters if you care about using it to actually Turn Undead. Alternative uses such as Divine Might only care that you have the ability and how many times you can use it, not how strong it is. A level 1 cleric gets exactly the same benefit from Divine Might as a level 20 cleric with the same charisma.

That said, you don't need a PrC to be powerful as a cleric. The standard powergaming recommendation is Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) along with a lot of Extra Turning and Nightsticks, but that combination is so powerful it should always be checked with your DM before you even start taking it.

Telonius
2009-04-22, 12:28 PM
What other domains are available to you? The "Good" domain isn't very good. There's an extremely limited number of spells with the "Good" descriptor, and having +1CL doesn't do much for most of them. Sun, Strength, or Travel would be better options, if available.

Mater
2009-04-22, 12:32 PM
Well that is something to think about. But since I have to spend 7 turning undead to cast a spell with persistent MM. I will have to buy those extra turnings mmaaaannnyyy times. That also means I will have to lose divine might. Which would be hard, but not immposible thou....

To those domains. I have good for roleplaying purposes so I dont wanna change it. The same aplies to PrCs that require specific god to be worshiped. I am stuck with heironeous and I really like him. Btw that spellcasting level was not just about caster lvl but also about spell sellection. Simply I want to stay as pure caster even if I want to be combat oriented...That DMM is to be considered...no doubts about that...but I am afraid GM will be against. He even nerfed that Nymphs kiss (and made me sad :-( )

Gorbash
2009-04-22, 12:52 PM
Well, since you're well on your way to become the cheesiest character your DM has ever allowed, I might as well suggest that you look up Nightsticks in Libris Mortis. While you're at it, buy a Reluqiary Holy Symbol and a decent Cloak of Charisma and congrats - you've won D&D!

mikej
2009-04-22, 12:59 PM
That DMM is to be considered...no doubts about that...but I am afraid GM will be against. He even nerfed that Nymphs kiss

Not 100% about the reasoning behind nerfing Nymph's Kiss? I took a second look just to be fair, but I couldn't find anything really overpowering.

When talking to your DM, keep in mind that the whole party can benefit from persist'd buffs.

Mater
2009-04-22, 01:01 PM
:-) Dont worry I probably wont become the one you think. My GM is very strict and there are not many thinks we can buy. I am very much against NightSticks concept and I wont use it (It would be banned anyway)...I dont wanna become Cheesy char, but that DMM is interesting feat and I will talk it over with my GM who will probably ban it as well.

Anyway. Could you give me any other feat sellection apart from this Cheesy one?...thanks :-)

Telonius
2009-04-22, 01:01 PM
Divine Might will give that particular character +3 to damage, 6 times a day. At absolute maximum, that will give you +36 damage total per day, and that's assuming you hit with all attacks on a full attack (bumped up to full BAB by Divine Power). Without Divine Power, you're down to +18 damage per day.

Basically, the bonus is situational and small. You don't need to worry about losing it.

oxybe
2009-04-22, 01:13 PM
my suggestion?

planning and undeath domains = extend spell + extra turning, btw :smallamused:


ClrDom - extend spell
ClrDom - extra turning
1 - persist spell
hum - Divine Metamagic (persist spell)
3 - power attack
6 - extra turning

suggested feats?
9 - Improved Bull Rush
12 - shock trooper

i would recommend a morningstar or spearas your weapon.

at this point you have 14 turn attempts per day, at level 6. you can DMM 2 spells:

generic suggestion is Owl's Wisdom & Bull's Strength for extra spells and a better to hit+damage, but shop around :D

at level 7 however? Divine Power and Freedom of Movement. all. day. long.

Mater
2009-04-22, 01:51 PM
Not 100% about the reasoning behind nerfing Nymph's Kiss? I took a second look just to be fair, but I couldn't find anything really overpowering.

When talking to your DM, keep in mind that the whole party can benefit from persist'd buffs.

Well he started to compare it with trash like toughness and discussion was over. There was a little I could have done about it :-(

Mater
2009-04-22, 02:00 PM
Well that is nice sellection. I like it. But as I said I am pretty much stuck with good and war domain which fits to my roleplaying idea. So At this rate I will have to take extra turning twice (two persisted spells) and hope I will not encounter any undead (which is likely to happen)...but I suppose I will not be stuck with cha 16 forever. But I will have to ask DM.

Btw is there any viable strategy that does not contain DMM or persistent spell (this build is really ovepovered)??????

Gorbash
2009-04-22, 02:11 PM
DMM (Quicken) is not as cheesy as Persist. If you encounter undead, just beat them to pulp, why is that a problem?

oxybe
2009-04-22, 02:12 PM
there are a lot of different cleric types, for a comprehensive guide on clerics, click here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=691564).

it's probably one of the better breakdowns on the cleric's mechanics you could find.

Mater
2009-04-22, 02:28 PM
Well that DMM (Q) is also very nice and could go through. Thanks.
About those undead...well you are problably right that I could smash them even without turning undead. I just like the concept :-)

Thanks for that link Oxy provided. Nice read. But it would be even nicer if it would be finished. :-) But nice anyway.

Gorbash
2009-04-22, 02:29 PM
Sure, it's one of the better ones... But Brilliant Gameologists have the best one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0), since it has better coverage on... Well, on everything.

monty
2009-04-22, 03:41 PM
Using your Turn Undead to actually turn things is only useful if you're evil. For any good character, hitting them with a weapon is just as reliable for killing them, and you can do it as many times per day as you want.

AslanCross
2009-04-22, 07:29 PM
I also recommend Ordained Champion and Practiced Spellcaster. You don't even really have to take all of Ordained Champ's levels if you don't want to. Up to level 3 is pretty good.

Ordained Champion has a really good spell channeling class feature, because unlike the duskblade it isn't subject to verbal/somatic/focus problems. As an (Sp), it could still require a concentration check to cast, though.

It also carries the hilarious prospect of channeling Cure Critical Wounds into your weapon and whacking your ally with it, hoping the spell heals more than the weapon deals damage.

Juggernaut1981
2009-04-22, 07:57 PM
As a DM/GM I can say, it has been refreshing to see someone say "but it doesn't fit with the roleplaying stuff I've already made" instead of "how tf do i make a backstory to cover this cheese i've put together"...

Gygax isn't dead, he lives on in our dice...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-22, 08:04 PM
Well that is something to think about. But since I have to spend 7 turning undead to cast a spell with persistent MM. I will have to buy those extra turnings mmaaaannnyyy times. That also means I will have to lose divine might. Which would be hard, but not immposible thou....

To those domains. I have good for roleplaying purposes so I dont wanna change it. The same aplies to PrCs that require specific god to be worshiped. I am stuck with heironeous and I really like him. Btw that spellcasting level was not just about caster lvl but also about spell sellection. Simply I want to stay as pure caster even if I want to be combat oriented...That DMM is to be considered...no doubts about that...but I am afraid GM will be against. He even nerfed that Nymphs kiss (and made me sad :-( )

You have a Charisma of 16, which nets you 7 turn attempts out of the box. That lets you DMM Persist Divine Power, which beats Divine Might the feat with an ugly stick, as it grants iterative attacks and other bonuses as well.

With Extra Turning, you get a total of 11 turn attempts.

However, if you want to sneak DMM past your GM, you can go Buff-Bot and DMM Chain instead, then get Reach Spell + GMW/MV and DMM Chain Reach Spell Death Ward + Freedom of Movement as necessary to grant situational immunity to the whole party as necessary.

In essence, it's a longer-term build, not for next game but for ten games after that. However, you get to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments on the whole party for a single casting, which ends up saving the party MILLIONS in gold by swinging +5 weapons of a bunch of different effects that are really +1 of a bunch of different effects and the enhancement bonus buffed up, and sporting +5 armor of a bunch of effects.

Try seeing if you can get a Bead of Karma, it really helps you buff more effectively by boosting your effective CL.

Chronos
2009-04-22, 08:19 PM
So, you like Knowledge skills, and you want to fight in melee. Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) is your friend. At the start of combat, you roll a knowledge check of the appropriate type for the monsters you're fighting, and depending on how good your roll is, you get a bonus between +1 and +5 to attack and damage rolls.

Another option for knowledge skills would be the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), from Unearthed Arcana. You get the Knowledge domain for free no matter who your deity is, which means all Knowledge skills are class skills for you, and you also get 6+int skill points per level instead of the standard 2. Unfortunately, this comes at the cost of lower BAB and a smaller HD, so you'll be less effective in combat, but the BAB decrease doesn't matter at all if you have Divine Power up.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-22, 08:43 PM
Forget about taking the Good domain, if it was removed from the game nobody would miss it. There are a few domains out there that are equal, everything else you could pick is just better. Of all the alignment domains I'd say Law is the only one that may even be worth taking, and even then through a prestige class and not at level 1.

The War domain isn't bad, but there are much better choices from an optimization perspective. It's usable, but just know that it doesn't contribute much to any type of Cleric and there are superior alternatives to it.

For your second domain you want to look at both spell choices and the granted power. Some of the best core choices would be Travel, Trickery, and Luck. Good non-core choices include Cold, Destiny, Slime, Storm, and Time.

A good offensive melee build is LN or LE Human Cleric of Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, get the Strength and War domains at level 1 and use a Greatsword. Feats should be Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, and Power Attack, and visit the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion. After level 6 it doesn't really matter what you get, maybe Extra Turning and Craft Rod to make Nightsticks. You'll get the Oracle domain at level 7, Law at level 11, and Destiny at level 16, and from level 17 on use DMM: Persistent with Choose Destiny make every d20 roll twice and take the best result.

Another option is to make an AC tank (not of Zarus), which is fairly easy to do early on. Get full plate and a heavy steel shield that you've crafted yourself at 1/3 the cost (4 ranks, +2 Int, +2 masterwork tools, take 10 on every check), a lesser rod of extend, and if you can sneak it by a standard strand of prayer beads that's had the bead of smiting removed so it only costs 9,000 gp, or even with the bead of healing also removed so it will be free, in which case get a Circlet of Persuasion, which also adds to your Cha-based turning checks, and a +1 weapon. Take the feat Divine Spell Power, maybe even use Illumian for your race with the Vaul sigil to get another +2 on turning checks. Each morning activate your Bead of Karma (+4 caster level), and use Divine Spell Power (1d20, +3 Cha, +3 Circlet, +2 Vaul, average +2 CL) to put Magic Vestment on your armor and shield with the Lesser Rod of Extend. If your check for Divine Spell Power rolls lower than +2 caster level, just don't cast on that one and spend another check the next round to try again. That will get you a +3 enhancement bonus to each for 24 hours at a time, for an all day AC of 27 at level 6. In this case, I'd make a Cleric of Pelor with the Sun and Healing domains, use the PH2 spontaneous domain casting variant with the Healing domain, and go Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant/ whatever, taking the Glory domain with Radiant Servant to get another +2 to turning checks. Also note that Radiant Servant gets proficiency in all martial weapons, so you won't even need the War domain.

ericgrau
2009-04-23, 03:40 AM
Use greater magic weapon, magic vestment, quickened divine favor, hero's feast and weapon focus to get your AB & AC up. For damage just put damage enchantments instead of enhancement bonuses on weapons. Your spells don't scale as fast as your gold does, so you might want to mix in a permanent shield or armor. Buff your allies too. Watch out for shorter buffs that take a combat round; those can be traps unless you get a buffing round. For example, with divine power you spend 4 rounds just catching up for the round you missed just to be only as good as a cleric who didn't cast it at all. Unless you get that buffing round or quicken it, it's pretty much only good for bragging how you have the same BAB as a full BAB class.

You also get a lot of SoD's you can toss around at higher levels. Note that the tougher creatures tend to have SR and high saves, while the weaker ones might die quickly from damage anyway. So consider when it's worth it. For example, a holy word is often worth it b/c it affects multiple weak foes, not just one.

Make sure you have the AB to handle power attack if you get it and/or opponents with a low enough AC.

Gorbash
2009-04-23, 04:23 AM
Buff your allies too

Don't. Between self buffs and party buffs, you won't have a chance to act in combat, I have a cleric in my party and it oftens plays out that he spends first couple of rounds tossing spells like Mass Shield of Faith, Recitation, Convinction and then Righteous Might, Divine Power and Divine Favor, and perhaps someone needs healing in the meantime, so he doesn't get a lot of chances to actuall hit stuff.

Yet the most effective thing would be Righteous Might and quickened Divine Power in the first round and go to town.

Curmudgeon
2009-04-23, 11:40 AM
Nymph's kiss ... Still worth it I think since I need skill points...I like knowledge skills :-) ) I agree with Chronos's suggestion because it fits with the above: play a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). You get more skill points, and all Knowledges are class skills. Then the key to melee power is simply:
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
maximum ranks in all 6 creature-related Knowledge skills
Divine Power to fix your AB problem
If you want to go with the War domain, make sure you're worshiping an appropriate deity. You seem to favor good alignments so I'd recommend Mayaheine. She's lawful good and has the bastard sword as her favored weapon. Then the War domain will grant you Martial Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon. Fighting with a two-handed sword gives you the 1.5x STR bonus, and you can take one hand off the weapon temporarily to cast spells.