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TheDarkDM
2009-04-23, 01:30 AM
One of oldest facts of pre 4th D&D was the Blood War, the ancient, neverending struggle between the Demons and the Devils over the nature of evil. Throughout the older editions, it was often stated that this war was the only thing keeping these respective forces in check, and that if one race were to be victorious it would spell the doom of the upper planes. Now, how do you all imagine this final conflict playing out? Would the military power of the Hells or the Abyss be enough to storm the planes of Good? Or would the upper planes be able to unite and repulse the threat?

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-23, 01:56 AM
One of oldest facts of pre 4th D&D was the Blood War, the ancient, neverending struggle between the Demons and the Devils over the nature of evil. Throughout the older editions, it was often stated that this war was the only thing keeping these respective forces in check, and that if one race were to be victorious it would spell the doom of the upper planes. Now, how do you all imagine this final conflict playing out? Would the military power of the Hells or the Abyss be enough to storm the planes of Good? Or would the upper planes be able to unite and repulse the threat?

In the case of one side winning in the Blood War, you'd end up with a very, very definite shift in the balance of power between Chaos and Law, except if one side compromised its idealology for victory.

If the later happened, then there is no change, since the ones who did not embraced the new ideology will resent the new boys, and the new boys will se the old ones as backward, and you end up with a new conflict.

But in the case where one of the two side actually win without compromising... I don't know what would happend. I'd say that they won't have the chance to conquer the forces of Dood, since they would probably also have the opposite Chaos/Law plane against them. (In the case of Demons winning, they'd have Mechanus fighting alongside the Celestials, and in the case of Hell winning, the Slaads would be the ones coming)

There will mostly be a new shift in the equilibrium, and you'd probably have the Lady of Pain doing a little intervention.

TheDarkDM
2009-04-23, 03:47 AM
For the purpose of this question, I assumed that neither side compromised its core CE or LE ideology in the course of achieving victory.

You raise a good point as to the involvment of the other alignment spectrums in the event of a Lower Plane invasion. In the cases of most planes, I would whole-heartedly agree that there would be no chance of planar domination. However, the Abyss and the Hells are presented as the two most powerful military forces in the multiverse, bar none. When considering that, in addition to the fact that the Upper planes would be hampered in such a conflict due to their inferior numbers, training, and their necessity to act in a generally good manner, the ultimate outcome of such a struggle becomes less clear, even with the participation of Mechanus and/or Limbo.

As to the Lady becoming involved, that depends entirely upon whether or not she is trapped in Sigil (as many believe).

Speaking of which, that begs the question: What would happen in a Lady vs. Asmodeus or a Lady vs. Demogorgon confrontation?

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-23, 04:58 AM
I'd go as far to say that whoever won would fail if they tried attacking the upper planes based on how the neutral planes inhabitants would probably have enough common sense to put their differences aside to help the Celestials due to how the Blood War winners would probably just go after the neutral planes eventually anyway.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-23, 10:42 AM
There's also the matter of yugoloths (the mercenary fiends of Gehenna), demodands (the prison guard fiends of Carceri), and the night hags (the soul-harvesting fiends of Hades).

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-23, 11:04 AM
Maybe could be the time for Celestial to strike veeery hard on the bloodied winner.

In that istance, multiverse could shift toward good. I wonder what could be the actions and reactions of Rilmani befor and after the war ending...

JellyPooga
2009-04-23, 11:30 AM
I believe the answer you're looking for is:

"Hurh...what is it good for? absolutely nothing!" :smalltongue:

The point is fairly moot. The point of The Blood War is that it won't ever end. Much as the Upper Planes will never come into direct conflict, the Lower Planes are in constant conflict; that's their raison d'etre, their purpose. The theory that "should one side win...X" is just a hypothetical situation in the same vein as most philosophy problems (such as: if you were standing on a bridge with a fat guy that had sufficient mass to stop an out of control tram car and by pushing him off you could stop the car and save the lives of the people in it and the kitten crossing the road, would you push him off?).

Having said that, the Devils would win because they have the Rule of Cool on their side (IMO) and the same rule would mean they crush the upper planes!

TheDarkDM
2009-04-23, 12:56 PM
I believe the answer you're looking for is:

"Hurh...what is it good for? absolutely nothing!" :smalltongue:

Bravo sir.

But as to the futile nature of such a discussion, I realize that it is extremely unlikely for either side to emerge victorious. I just though it might be a fun question to ponder.

Oh, and Devils ftw. :smallamused:

Voidhawk
2009-04-24, 08:34 AM
Hmmm... the Blood War is mostly fought on the plane of Carceri, am I right?

Hypothetically, what would happen if a suitibably epic wizard Dimensional Locked the whole bloody plane, thereby stopping the endless armies getting to the battleground? What would these inexaustable armies of doom do then?

Invade the Upper planes? Invade the Prime? Or simply camp outside Carceri, waiting for the Lock to wear off?

As a side note, one of my characters has been planning for a while to eventually Dimensionally Lock the entire Prime material, as he's fed up of these Mother-Loving outsiders on this Mother-Loving plane! :smallamused:

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-24, 11:22 AM
Hmmm... the Blood War is mostly fought on the plane of Carceri, am I right?...The Blood War is fought on all of the Lower Planes.

theMycon
2009-04-24, 10:18 PM
"Hurh...what is it good for? absolutely nothing!" :smalltongue:

The point is fairly moot. The point of The Blood War is that it won't ever end.

(Suitably grim voice)
War... War never changes.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 10:22 PM
(Suitably grim voice)
War... War never changes.

Ron Perlman's voice, of course.

Who better than Anung Un Rama to narrate the Blood War?

Asbestos
2009-04-24, 10:33 PM
(Suitably grim voice)
War... War never changes.

Good ol' Fallout 2 ref.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 10:48 PM
Good ol' Fallout 2 ref.

And Fallout 1.

And Fallout 3.

And Fallout Tactics, Brotherhood of Steel.

In other words, every single Fallout game.

GolemsVoice
2009-04-25, 01:13 AM
Damn it, you beat me to it! Well played, good sirs.
rsonally think that If one side was to win, all other planes would be in deep trouble. Even more so if the winning ide would be Demons. As far as I know, the only thing that stops demons from just placing a demon on every square metre of every plane is that they keep fighting and dieing in the Blood War, which the Devils are able to keep running only thanks to their superior tactics balancing out the sheer masses of Demons. So, if the Demons would somehow win, there is no limit to the number of Demons that could be, as they constantly spawn in the Lower Planes. So even if the old Blood War would be replaced by a War All Goods agains Chatoic Evil, nobody would be able to kep the Demons at bay. THey may be ablle to defend their respective home planes, but alot of planes between them would go to hell, or, to the Abbys. In two brief hours, humanity will almost be wiped out, their spirits becoming part of the background suffering that blankets the Prime, lasting many years.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-25, 01:21 AM
I would have thought that there would be roughly equal numbers of Devils and Demons due to both alignments (presumably) being as common. I still think the other planes working together to emilinate the winners is more likely due to how the neutral planes would probably want all of the evil Outsiders out of the way.

Jade_Tarem
2009-04-25, 01:34 AM
Some opportunistic sniping from the neutral planes might occur as well. In fact, you could make a campaign of it. Ambition in DnD is a near-universal and all-pervasive force, and it isn't too hard to imagine the Elemental Planes or even Mechanus attempting to annex the Nine Hells, if circumstances were correct.

RTGoodman
2009-04-25, 10:09 AM
I would have thought that there would be roughly equal numbers of Devils and Demons due to both alignments (presumably) being as common.

I think it's usually stated that the there's an infinite number of demons, since there's an infinite number of layers of the Abyss.

I do think that if one group did manage to win (though it'd never happen), all of the other planes would band together, but I'm not sure it'd help much. I think the LN denizens of Mechanus and a lot of the LG outsiders probably wouldn't work with the defeated Devils for too long if the Demons won, and I just don't think the Slaadi or CG-type folk would be able to hold an alliance together with the hordes of Demons long enough to fight off a victorious Devil army. Really, it would come down to whether or not someone (probably the Neutrals) could make everyone cooperate long enough to at least get it back to Blood War style normalcy.

ZeroNumerous
2009-04-25, 10:30 AM
It hugely depends on whom wins the Blood War.

Demons? Every other plane is scoured of life as a literally infinite number of unholy abominations destroy everything that lives and breathes along with everything that doesn't before finally turning on one another until the Overdeity gets bored of watching demons fight for eternity and restarts the whole thing.

Devils? More or less status quo except for the Prime becoming the 10th layer of Baator. I doubt devils care enough to futz around with anyone else, so it's basically a big Screw You to the material races.

The Wishy-Washys(Yugoloths)? Who knows. Better question? Who cares. These guys are boring. :smallsigh:

Morty
2009-04-25, 11:12 AM
The Wishy-Washys(Yugoloths)? Who knows. Better question? Who cares. These guys are boring. :smallsigh:

I don't think Yugoloths are even engaged in the Blood War. And given the general nature of Neutral Evil in the cosmology, the universe ruled by Yugoloths would be a barren waste devoid of life, hope and pretty much anything.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-25, 11:56 AM
I think it's usually stated that the there's an infinite number of demons, since there's an infinite number of layers of the Abyss.Actually, the Abyss has one definite layer, and the others are sort of a "tree falls in the forest" infinity: they're only there as long as someone is there to keep checking them. Once a layer of the Abyss has been empty and forgotten for long enough, it is siphoned off and added back to the first layer. If someone says, "I'm gonna find a new layer of the Abyss," and starts plumbing the plane for one, the first layer produces a new layer for the person to find.

And, y'know, all the planes are infinite in size.


I don't think Yugoloths are even engaged in the Blood War.Sure they are; they just don't have a "side." Yugoloths act as mercenaries, and fight for both the demons and the devils in the Blood War, which they claim is actually a machination of their own to serve as a distraction until the day they assault the Upper Planes.

Eldan
2009-04-25, 04:23 PM
Well, if the hells lost, a few other people would like to have a word...

The mediators, modrons, formians, archons, aasimon, asura, deva and the rilmani, as well as many of their respective gods... most likely even the Eladrin, even though they helped the tanar'ri to stop the baatezu form winning and perhaps even the seelie court and some of the elemental planes.

chiasaur11
2009-04-25, 04:38 PM
Well, if the hells lost, a few other people would like to have a word...

The mediators, modrons, formians, archons, aasimon, asura, deva and the rilmani, as well as many of their respective gods... most likely even the Eladrin, even though they helped the tanar'ri to stop the baatezu form winning and perhaps even the seelie court and some of the elemental planes.

Not to mention the giant space hamsters.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-25, 08:09 PM
What if one side won the Blood War?

Here's a contrary point of view: Not much.

Just a reminder - there wasn't any Blood War in first edition. It was invented in the 2nd, and my understanding at the time was that when the cowardly wusses running the show decided they should rename the demons Tanar'ri and devils Baatezu to avoid the whole "DnD leads to Satanism!" nonsense that was floating around the religious right, the Blood War was supposed to be their justification for messing with the Material Plane - souls being power, seeking idiot mercenaries, etc. The idea that the denizens of one plane could conquer another was never even discussed in the original game - I think if it had been brought up, it would have been dismissed as impossible. The fiends can't change the nature of the Upper planes, any more than the Devas etc could make the Abyss good. That's why all the action was on the Prime Material Plane - that was the battleground, and the number of souls ascending or descending in the afterlife was a handy way to keep score. And adventurers might go down into the lower planes to thwart a particular fiend who was causing trouble, but couldn't change the larger picture.

Even in 2nd Edition, there was the impression that the Blood War was just a pointless exercise in viloence for the sake of violence between enemies filled with insane hatred, and could never end. And I thought it was interesting that when the Demon Princes and Archdevils were brought back in Book of Vile Darkness, they weren't all that interested in the Blood War - seemed clear to me that they were smart enough to know it was pretty much a fruitless endevour, and were more interested in gaining power over their peers on their own plane.

The wikipedia entry on the Blood War mentions the possibility that the whole thing is just an experiment by the Neutral Evil yugoloths - don't know where that comes from, but it's an interesting idea. I think it would be pretty awesome if te BW did end in sopme great dramatic way and the end result was - nothing. Be a great comment on the futility and short-sightedness of evil, IMHO.

And really, I'm not sure why so many people think that the Forces of Evil are so much more powerful than everyone else - or rather I guess I do know, and I kinda think it's a cynical and depressing comment on life IRL. And remember the whole line about "The Devils are saving everyone else from the Demons" is the devils' own propaganda, as the FC2 points out. Myself, I think that if the BW could actually be won, the forces of Good would be idiotic not to unite and take the opportunity to wipe out the weakened victors.

Aik
2009-04-26, 02:58 AM
I'm pretty sure it's stated in Hellbound: The Blood War that it is possible for one side to win and that at times the balance in the war has shifted, so saying it's an eternal pointless exercise doesn't quite fit.

Xenogears
2009-04-26, 09:27 AM
And I thought it was interesting that when the Demon Princes and Archdevils were brought back in [B]Book of Vile Darkness, they weren't all that interested in the Blood War - seemed clear to me that they were smart enough to know it was pretty much a fruitless endevour, and were more interested in gaining power over their peers on their own plane.

Well Belial (I think) the lord of the first was the former grand leader of th Devils armies in the Blood War and is still very interested in it. More so than any of the other Lords of Hell. Asmodeus has direct control over the Devils that are the commanders of the Blood War army so he is showing interrest(and if it interests Asmodeus then ALL the devils care simply because he does). So the Lord of the first spends most of his time with the blood war and the other Lords of Hell seem to have basically decided to pay someone else (except I doubt Asmodeus has to pay anyone....) to run the blood war for them.

As to what would happen if one side won? It would depend on too many things. First off which side? Demons? Mad rush at all other planes that either wins by sheer force of number or loses due to the enemy having brialliant tactics. Either way the Planes will never be the same and a good portion are probably barren wasteland now....

If the devils win then they might retreat to recover before starting a new war and they might not. Either way in one of the boks (either BoVD or Manual of the Planes) it says that Asmodeus keeps an army greater than any seen in the blood war (and the blood war is said to have armies bigger than any seen on any other plane....) in reserve so the Devils will NOT be weakened by the blood war enough for Celestia to conquer them.

Also in the Manual of the Planes it mentions that in Hell there are rumors (horribly squashed by Asmodeus. If you say it you're dead within 24 hrs...) that Asmodeus is really just a project image he uses and that his real body is a gigantic snake that is still healing from when it fell into the Nine Hells (which I think it also said created the Nine Hells). So assuming this rumor is true then just how powerful is Asmodeus? Considering that plenty of stories also say he is the original evil in the entire multiverse then it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to think he was a greater diety as well (since the stats in BoVD would be for his projected image). Assuming those rumors are true......

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-26, 10:27 AM
If the devils win then they might retreat to recover before starting a new war and they might not. Either way in one of the boks (either BoVD or Manual of the Planes) it says that Asmodeus keeps an army greater than any seen in the blood war (and the blood war is said to have armies bigger than any seen on any other plane....) in reserve so the Devils will NOT be weakened by the blood war enough for Celestia to conquer them.

An army bigger then any other seen in the Blood War...composed entirely of Pit Fiends nonetheless. However, while that is very damn impressive, it becomes less (by a little) so when you consider most demon lords don't (and can't) commit their entire armies to the Blood War because it'd be setting themselves up to be taken out by their fellow demon lords. These Abyss-only armies aren't compromised entirely of balors, but it is still food for thought.


Also in the Manual of the Planes it mentions that in Hell there are rumors (horribly squashed by Asmodeus. If you say it you're dead within 24 hrs...) that Asmodeus is really just a project image he uses and that his real body is a gigantic snake that is still healing from when it fell into the Nine Hells (which I think it also said created the Nine Hells). So assuming this rumor is true then just how powerful is Asmodeus? Considering that plenty of stories also say he is the original evil in the entire multiverse then it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to think he was a greater diety as well (since the stats in BoVD would be for his projected image). Assuming those rumors are true......

Which could just be devil propaganda, just like the story of the Pact at the beginning of Fiendish Codex II. It's difficult as hell to ascertain anything as 'true' about Asmodeus with so many conflicting rumors except this...

1) He was injured when he was cast into the Nine Hells.

2) He is still healing.

That seems almost universally agreed.


As for who would win...nobody. The Blood War isn't supposed to end, and I'm not saying that out of any concern for the intent of the game or anything, it's just so unlikely as to be impossible. Despite what information on the Blood War says, neither side is completely and utterly devoted to the conflict because otherwise you'd see much more information of dukes of Hell battling Demon Princes since nothing else on either side could stand up to a Duke or Prince especially if you factor Demogorgon and Asmodeus into the equation. The Abyss devotes enough effort to the Blood War to keep the Nine Hells harried and out of the Abyss while the Nine Hells devotes itself only so much as to keep to their original demon-slaying mandate (if THAT rumor is to be believed) and to keep the demons out of the Nine Hells. Why do you think Bel is the only arch-duke actively engaged in the Blood War? Because it's the only claim he has on his position, his successes in it. The other Arch-dukes donate tithes to his forces and the Dark Eight but otherwise ignore it in favor of corrupting more souls.

Demon princes are too chaotic to stay in alliances with each other long enough to make a serious serious push into the Nine Hells or with any other race. They are, to put it simply, too paranoid that if they did their fellows would seize their realms while they busied themselves with creatures several PLANES away. Aside from that, why get involved in the Blood War when there's equal amounts of enjoyment on the Material Plane and in their own layers?

Which brings to the final point of which would win...Asmodeus has been planning for the 'end' of the Blood War. If it's to be believed, he's just waiting for the proper moment to broker a treaty with the demon princes so they can launch a joint apocalyptic attack on the upper planes. Which...well...spells doom for everyone. It's why he keeps that pit fiend army in reserve. He doesn't even expect the alliance to last too long, just long enough.

---

As for Asmodeus vs. Lady and Demogorgon vs. Lady it's...well...for one, why the hell would she get involved? Would she even leave Sigil for this? If she did well...it's unlikely as hell that Asmodeus and the Lady would actually have any conflict considering they are both Ancients and I have no idea how Demogorgon would react to her. He's the most powerful demon in single combat, but I'm not sure how that matches up. He's certainly not something to take lightly, that's for damn sure but there's other questions to consider. Does he have any of his myriad of second-in-commands with him? Did he become the King of Demons (See Savage Tide)? How...dedicated is he to the conflict? So on.

Also...assuming one side DID defeat the other, Devils against Demons or demons to devils, why do you assume all of the other planes of the L or C axis unite against the winner? It's fool-hardy. The Eladrins despise the demons (Demogorgon in particular) and the Slaadi are almost just like the demons, too chaotic to be trusted to stay in any alliance for long. Celestials could be expected to honor any truce they made with devils but why would they? For a demon victory over devils to be TRULY complete then at least half of the arch-dukes (including Asmodeus) would have to be killed and the resulting jockeying for power weakens the devils even further. Remember, Celestials abide by 'SUPER-GOOD' tenements and a paladin's code forbids them from working with evil (though most sensible DM's houserule they can as long as they work at redeeming said evil). Formians would be crushed against either evil force, no matter who they united with, and...again...why would the inevitables get involved? How does one side of the Blood War 'winning' threaten the rules of reality in the ways that seem to get the attention of inevitables. They might design an inevitable to fight demons, but it'd likely be the only type seen on that battlefield unless demons begin killing off gods, messing with time, or interrupting with the various other directives of other inevitables.

The only lawful race that I'd be SURE would join against demon winners is...modrons because of what Orcus did to them. But who knows if they'd even be able to make a meaningful contributation!

Xenogears
2009-04-26, 10:55 AM
An army bigger then any other seen in the Blood War...composed entirely of Pit Fiends nonetheless. However, while that is very damn impressive, it becomes less (by a little) so when you consider most demon lords don't (and can't) commit their entire armies to the Blood War because it'd be setting themselves up to be taken out by their fellow demon lords. These Abyss-only armies aren't compromised entirely of balors, but it is still food for thought.

Thats true but if one is to assume that all the other Devil Lords and Demon Lords have vast forces in reserve then its also logical to assume that even aside from his super army of reserves he probably has atleast as many soldiers as any other Demon or Devil.


Which could just be devil propaganda, just like the story of the Pact at the beginning of Fiendish Codex II. It's difficult as hell to ascertain anything as 'true' about Asmodeus with so many conflicting rumors except this...

1) He was injured when he was cast into the Nine Hells.

2) He is still healing.

That seems almost universally agreed.

The larger question, I think, is wether or not he is a god. He certainly has enough worshippers and he is older than many gods. He also is said to be the original evil. I'm fairly certain he should be a God, which is why I am somewhat inclined to buy into the projected image thing cuz those stats of his do not seem terribly impressive (although the ruby rod is the most awesome artifact I've found.....)

Speaking of the Ruby Rod. How many other magical items must he have. It says one set of clothing costs more than an entire country spends in a year. Considering that what you spend on clothes isn't usually terribly much compared to your total money I'd imagine he has close to infinite money. He can basically have any item made for him with ease.....


As for who would win...nobody. The Blood War isn't supposed to end, and I'm not saying that out of any concern for the intent of the game or anything, it's just so unlikely as to be impossible. Despite what information on the Blood War says, neither side is completely and utterly devoted to the conflict because otherwise you'd see much more information of dukes of Hell battling Demon Princes since nothing else on either side could stand up to a Duke or Prince especially if you factor Demogorgon and Asmodeus into the equation. The Abyss devotes enough effort to the Blood War to keep the Nine Hells harried and out of the Abyss while the Nine Hells devotes itself only so much as to keep to their original demon-slaying mandate (if THAT rumor is to be believed) and to keep the demons out of the Nine Hells. Why do you think Bel is the only arch-duke actively engaged in the Blood War? Because it's the only claim he has on his position, his successes in it. The other Arch-dukes donate tithes to his forces and the Dark Eight but otherwise ignore it in favor of corrupting more souls.

Demon princes are too chaotic to stay in alliances with each other long enough to make a serious serious push into the Nine Hells or with any other race. They are, to put it simply, too paranoid that if they did their fellows would seize their realms while they busied themselves with creatures several PLANES away. Aside from that, why get involved in the Blood War when there's equal amounts of enjoyment on the Material Plane and in their own layers?

Which brings to the final point of which would win...Asmodeus has been planning for the 'end' of the Blood War. If it's to be believed, he's just waiting for the proper moment to broker a treaty with the demon princes so they can launch a joint apocalyptic attack on the upper planes. Which...well...spells doom for everyone. It's why he keeps that pit fiend army in reserve. He doesn't even expect the alliance to last too long, just long enough.

Well I am inclined to agree that as of now there is no foreseeable end to the war but, for the sake of discussion, we should assume that one side or another suddenly lost a lot of troops or something. Maybe a demon lord screwed up and got an epic level wizard angry and he blasted the entire kingdom of said demon lord into oblivion and the devils managed to overrun the Abyss before they could recover. So as stands there can be no victor but introduce a sufficiently powerful new element and who knows.


Also...assuming one side DID defeat the other, Devils against Demons or demons to devils, why do you assume all of the other planes of the L or C axis unite against the winner? It's fool-hardy. The Eladrins despise the demons (Demogorgon in particular) and the Slaadi are almost just like the demons, too chaotic to be trusted to stay in any alliance for long. Celestials could be expected to honor any truce they made with devils but why would they? For a demon victory over devils to be TRULY complete then at least half of the arch-dukes (including Asmodeus) would have to be killed and the resulting jockeying for power weakens the devils even further. Remember, Celestials abide by 'SUPER-GOOD' tenements and a paladin's code forbids them from working with evil (though most sensible DM's houserule they can as long as they work at redeeming said evil). Formians would be crushed against either evil force, no matter who they united with, and...again...why would the inevitables get involved? How does one side of the Blood War 'winning' threaten the rules of reality in the ways that seem to get the attention of inevitables. They might design an inevitable to fight demons, but it'd likely be the only type seen on that battlefield unless demons begin killing off gods, messing with time, or interrupting with the various other directives of other inevitables.

Well it all depends on how much the Chaotic or Lawful forces wanted to ensure that their respective alignment was prevelant throughout the cosmos. If a lot they would go to war if not then not.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-26, 02:27 PM
Which brings to the final point of which would win...Asmodeus has been planning for the 'end' of the Blood War. If it's to be believed, he's just waiting for the proper moment to broker a treaty with the demon princes so they can launch a joint apocalyptic attack on the upper planes. Which...well...spells doom for everyone.

I'm still curious as to why this seems to be the prevalent point of view. Why do people think that the denizens of the evil planes would mop up the others if they stopped fighting each other? I mean, there's a certain narrative reason I guess, to give characters a bit more incentive to fight evil outsiders, but really seems wayyyy to large scale to affect a campaign.

Really all this talk about who would align against who and such sounds more like a space opera than anything else. Simply recast the demons, modrons, etc as ancient alien empires that have been feuding for time out of mind, and it fits perfectly. As supernatural embodiments of universal concepts - Order and Change, Good and Evil - not so much.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-26, 02:40 PM
BTW, I have to mention that's its very interesting how Asmodeus has been treated by various writers as time has passed. First he was a stand in for the traditional stereotype of "THe Devil" - ruler of hell, point beard, small horns, etc - but still equaled by Demogorgon, the baddest of the Demons, and there was no particular story of a Fall or his rebelling or anyone for him to rebel against. Then of course he was erased, and then restored.

And now there's this weird thing where the most recent writers have decided to make him almost EXACTLY like the Judeo-Christian Satan - the originally good angel who fell, and is the source of all evil? WTF? It really seems strange given that nothing else in DnD cosmology fits in with Judeo-Christian mythology, aside from the imagery of angelic and demonic beings.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-26, 02:46 PM
I'm still curious as to why this seems to be the prevalent point of view. Why do people think that the denizens of the evil planes would mop up the others if they stopped fighting each other? I mean, there's a certain narrative reason I guess, to give characters a bit more incentive to fight evil outsiders, but really seems wayyyy to large scale to affect a campaign.The Abyss has infinite hordes. It literally can send more and more units to the field, until their corpses suffocate all life on the plane. They will not be stopped, and are only barely being contained.

The Demons are fallen celestials, the strongest and greatest of their generals and armies. They were sent to fight the Abyss, and have been tempered by combat for untold mellenia. The endless fighting has forced them to draw on sources of power unavailible to good creatures, causing them to fall to Evil, but strengthening them even further as they did so.

Now, which of those do you think the forces of Good have a chance of stopping? Their best generals and armies, which have grown in power even more, or the Abyss that is evidently strong enough to beat their best Generals and Armies? Celestia is doomed without outside help. Elysium, the Inevitables, the Slaadi, they've got a shot(and the Lady will protect Sigil against anything), but Celestia alone couldn't hold against either side.

And the Material is probably dead no matter what. One of the Evil sides gains that much power? Some of them are gonna come here for a party. Actually, that sounds like a cool near-Epic Planeshifting game. The Abyss has triumphed, you have to fight a couple of their advance groups in the material, then ally with the Devil resistance, unite the disparate aligned planes, and take the fight to the demons.

JonestheSpy
2009-04-26, 03:40 PM
Well really, this is a matter of interpretation. Maybe I'm getting to close to verbotten real-life issues, but it just seems that a whole lot of folks are very quick to latch onto the Nigh-Unstoppable Evil template of existence as opposed to others. For instance:


The Abyss has infinite hordes. It literally can send more and more units to the field, until their corpses suffocate all life on the plane. They will not be stopped, and are only barely being contained.

Well, as other folks have brought up "Infinite" is quite relative, given that all the planes are supposed to be infinite. Things can go any which way you choose to iterpret when you start talking about bigger infiniteis and whatnot. Myself, I agree with the folks who describe the Abyss as infinite in variety - evil varieties anyway, technically it should be Limbo that truely encompasses ultimate possibility - not necessarily as somehow being more infinite than other infinities.



The Demons are fallen celestials, the strongest and greatest of their generals and armies. They were sent to fight the Abyss, and have been tempered by combat for untold mellenia. The endless fighting has forced them to draw on sources of power unavailible to good creatures, causing them to fall to Evil, but strengthening them even further as they did so.

Well again, it's been stated pretty clearly that that's the Devils line. THe question is then why folks seem so ready to accept it.


Now, which of those do you think the forces of Good have a chance of stopping? Their best generals and armies, which have grown in power even more, or the Abyss that is evidently strong enough to beat their best Generals and Armies? Celestia is doomed without outside help. Elysium, the Inevitables, the Slaadi, they've got a shot(and the Lady will protect Sigil against anything), but Celestia alone couldn't hold against either side.

Well, there's the issue that SOMEONE had to have been strong enough to exile Asmodeus in the first place, right? And there's no reason to think the celestials have been sitting on their asses - they've been fighting evil ever since. And as for strength, if you look at the stats of individual celestials, they easily can go toe-to-toe against fiends.


And the Material is probably dead no matter what. One of the Evil sides gains that much power? Some of them are gonna come here for a party. Actually, that sounds like a cool near-Epic Planeshifting game. The Abyss has triumphed, you have to fight a couple of their advance groups in the material, then ally with the Devil resistance, unite the disparate aligned planes, and take the fight to the demons.

Sounds like fun - Planescape crossed with Aftermath! .

Jothki
2009-04-26, 04:06 PM
Reminds me of a setting concept I came up with a while ago.

Someone on one of the evil planes (Devils, maybe? Pretty much any evil outsider will do) comes up with a way to bind every single soul that dies to his own plane. As a result, that plane gets a huge surge in power while the others all slowly weaken. The Devils take advantage of this to stomp over every other plane, and despite everyone else banding together to stop them, succeed.

However, just as they're finishing reducing the other planes to barren wastelands, they begin to realize just how much they've screwed themselves over. Since the newcomers aren't actually aligned with the plane, their beliefs gradually begin to reshape it, to the point where the Devils are losing control over their own plane. They lose control over the forms of petitioners, and as a result some petitioners are able to form clumps of resistance. The Devils crush them as they appear, but as the nature of the plane shifts the rebels grow stronger while the Devils become weaker.

Through all of this the material planes are pretty much untouched, as the Devils used up most of their strength conquering the outer planes. Life continues mostly as normal, and the traditional distribution of alignments remains. The only significant difference is that it has become noticibly more difficult to summon non-Devil outsiders.

Move the setting forward, and the Devils have lost the ability to crush those that oppose them, and factions have begun to appear based on alignment and ideology, which begin to shape the area around them. These factions are frequently drawn into conflict with each other and the remnants of the Devils that are desperately struggling to regain control.

TaintedLight
2009-04-26, 04:15 PM
If I were to interpret the Blood War from FC1 and FC2, I would say that at the rate things are going the Abyss will eventually overwhelm the Hells. The following explanation is based on the understanding that my DM and our group have of the nature of the alignment-centric outer planes.

My theory is based on the fact that the Abyss is just as much a plane of chaos as it is one of evil. That said, demons are spawned ad infinitem all over the place, meaning there's always cannon fodder for the war. The devils have to create their soldiers one at a time. Assuming that the devils and demons being sent to fight one another are of roughly equal power, the devils will eventually run out. More bad news for the devils, though. There are demons that outstrip even paelyrions and pit fiends for power (namely, the klurchir from FF).

Dervag
2009-04-26, 06:11 PM
Now, which of those do you think the forces of Good have a chance of stopping? Their best generals and armies, which have grown in power even more, or the Abyss that is evidently strong enough to beat their best Generals and Armies? Celestia is doomed without outside help. Elysium, the Inevitables, the Slaadi, they've got a shot(and the Lady will protect Sigil against anything), but Celestia alone couldn't hold against either side.The fact that the devils didn't lose the Blood War immediately proves that while there may be an infinite number of demons, there are a finite number of ways for demons to attack. Otherwise, in the memorable words of... LadySilver, I believe, they wouldn't be calling it the Blood War. They'd be calling it the "Oh God there's demons everywhere! Get them off me! Aargh aargh aargh..."

Therefore, the total rate at which demons can come pouring out of the Abyss must be finite, because not even the devils could defeat an attack by an infinite number of demons all at once.

My theory is that the geometry of the Abyss is such that the access routes to other planes occupy a limited region of space, with the Abyss stretching to infinity in some number of dimensions beyond that space. Therefore, while there are an infinite number of demons, you'll never meet them, because they'd have to walk waaay too far to get to a portal and leave the Abyss. Like, a century or two. They'd get bored and go wander off looking for something to kill long before reaching the exit. So the only demons you might confront are the ones close enough to the portals that it's at least plausible that they'll actually try to attack you through it.

Another way to think of it is that the Abyss is like an infinitely large bag of demons bouncing off each other and pushing in all directions. While the total number of demons is infinite, the density of demons per square foot is finite, so the "pressure" is finite. There happen to be a few holes in the bag pointed in our direction, so we get hit with the demons that happen to bounce out through the holes. But it would take an infinitely long time for the entire bag to empty through a finite number of holes, so we're not as screwed as "infinite number of demons" makes you think. Most of the demons are far from the exit and too busy fighting each other to know or care about anything outside the Abyss.

So while having the demons come out of the Abyss without the devils in place to stop them is bad, it isn't automatic 'end of everything' time. A finite force that can keep replenishing its numbers fast enough can block all the exits, just as the devils did. And the rest of the multiverse will make the effort to do that, because they don't want to be up to their neck in demons any more than you do.
_______

As for the devils, they may have been the toughest guys the Upper Planes had on tap back in the beginning of the universe, but that doesn't mean they're tougher than everyone back in the old family home today. The celestials have had eons to replenish the hole in their ranks left behind by the devils' defection.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-26, 08:36 PM
The fact that the devils didn't lose the Blood War immediately proves that while there may be an infinite number of demons, there are a finite number of ways for demons to attack. Otherwise, in the memorable words of... LadySilver, I believe, they wouldn't be calling it the Blood War. They'd be calling it the "Oh God there's demons everywhere! Get them off me! Aargh aargh aargh..."

Therefore, the total rate at which demons can come pouring out of the Abyss must be finite, because not even the devils could defeat an attack by an infinite number of demons all at once.

That's true. Some/most Abyassal layers don't have direct access to the other planes via transitive planes, they have to go through the First layer to get to others. I forget who said it or where, but it was said that as long as one could hold the fortresses on the first layer they could essentially 'stop up' the flow of demons except for a much smaller dribble that have their own planar magic or live on layers that lead to other planes.


So while having the demons come out of the Abyss without the devils in place to stop them is bad, it isn't automatic 'end of everything' time. A finite force that can keep replenishing its numbers fast enough can block all the exits, just as the devils did. And the rest of the multiverse will make the effort to do that, because they don't want to be up to their neck in demons any more than you do.
_______

That's just it though, from what I understand, the good planes don't draw on souls for replenishment. Or, to put it a different way, not nearly as much as the Lower planes. On Celestia at least the goal of the souls there is to reach to the top of the mountain and merge with the plane, not become a celestial and fight for it. That is one of the reasons for the 'demons winning Blood War leads to end of everything' thing, the Upper Planes have to use a much slower replenishment process (which I don't know) to refill their numbers as opposed to the much faster version that the devils use. They have exactly what you describe above, a finite force that replenishes their numbers fast enough to stave off the demons in the Blood War.


As for the devils, they may have been the toughest guys the Upper Planes had on tap back in the beginning of the universe, but that doesn't mean they're tougher than everyone back in the old family home today. The celestials have had eons to replenish the hole in their ranks left behind by the devils' defection.

Actually, comparatively, the Arch-Dukes match up more then well enough against the Paragons of the Seven Mounting Heavens. It is only once you reach the final two that the most powerful Arch-dukes would be needed to help their lesser brethren to ensure a victory. And true, the strongest celestials are stronger then the strongest devils but there isn't as much of a difference as one might imagine and there is certainly more devils.

Something to keep in mind is the fact that the Upper Planes are not constantly at war like the Lower Planes are. Sure, there are crusade-like sojourns when they see a weakness in the Lower Planes, but for the most part they are simply vigilant against intrusions into their own realms and not actively seeking conflict. Why? Because then they just might become the focus of their fiendish foes. I think it's in the Book of Vile Darkness that it says the Upper Planes actually hope the Blood War never does end.

@Xenogears:

1: Actually I'd say the other Arch-devils and demon princes have reserves, but just not on the magnitude that Asmodeus does. They probably keep a portion of their forces as a surprise but that's just normal for a commander. You don't commit all your forces if you don't have to. Asmodeus doesn't either...for his normal force. He has legions in the Blood War just like any other Arch-Devil, and it has reserves just like any army...and then there is the Legion of max HP/HD (can't remember) pit fiends that he keeps as a second force for the final conflict between good and evil.

2: He isn't a god, that much is certain. He definitely has god-like power and is probably closer to true divinity then any arch-duke but he isn't a god. He is an Ancient (which the Lady of Pain and god of couatls belong among others) and he is (very likely) the Serpent that guided Vecna to power.

3: That's just it. It would take such a significant upheaval that it could only be a DM's plot-point/campaign to disrupt the Abyss enough for that to happen. On the devil side it would also have to be a DM's plot-point/campaign (or not playing devils as intelligently as they should) for there to be a weakness on that side as well.

And that's fine! It could make for a truly epic campaign, but aside from direct DM-action there is nothing that could cause one side to win over the other. The only thing I could imagine that could do it is if Obox-ob (The original Prince of Demons, now the Demon Prince of Vermin) unseated Demogorgon and reclaimed his title because then the Abyss itself would begin to alter so that obryinths would replace tanar'ri once more and the resulting battle of survival between the two demon types would be the only big enough opening for devils/inevitables/celestials (though they tried when the tanar'ri rebelled and failed) to make a serious push into demonic territory. Even then, whoever went into the fray would come out as mangled as whatever demon side one and would be very ill-suited to try for long-term occupation.

Thane of Fife
2009-04-26, 08:44 PM
Out of curiosity, did 3.x change the moderators? Because, as far as I can recall, they were basically omnipotent in 2e, to the point where they didn't even have experience values, because killing them was impossible (certain kinds of moderators, anyway).

If they haven't changed, surely they render Mechanus essentially unclaimable?

EndlessWrath
2009-04-26, 09:44 PM
As a side note, one of my characters has been planning for a while to eventually Dimensionally Lock the entire Prime material, as he's fed up of these Mother-Loving outsiders on this Mother-Loving plane! :smallamused:

:smallamused: epic win.

IMO, balance is what is preventing Armageddon.

If such a shift in power occurred, the upper planes would have a little while before the forces of darkness recuperated and marched to the gates of heaven.


My theory on such, Evil would win the fight, but good would eventually come back and triumph over all.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-26, 10:20 PM
:smallamused: epic win.

:smallamused: And epic fail at the same time, for obvious reasons. Also, who are the 'moderators' from 2e? They don't ring a bell.

Aik
2009-04-27, 12:59 AM
With a flurry of pinions and blazing swords, an army of millions of archons and aasimon takes the fight to the Lower Planes. their eyes burn with righeousness, their spirits afire with the desire to stop evil - and the need for vengeance. the celestials take the diabolical armies unaware, and they lay about with great fury, caring not what sort of fiends they fell.
the battle rages for a year, the tanar'ri and baatezu fighting the celestials and each other. then the two fiendish races decide to forget their eternal struggle long enough to rout the upper-planar forces. Both armies turn on the celestials, striking them from all sides. Within a week, the celestials fall back, their pure robes stained and dirty, their hands covered in blood. Only 3,000 are said to survive
- Hellbound: The Blood War

Of course, they managed this by working together, and perhaps the outcome would be different if one of the sides won and took on the celestials alone. Regardless, it certainly sounds like the fiends have the firepower to smash the celestials if they had a mind to.

Assuming, of course, that all this hasn't been retconned 3E+ (what the hell is all this about 'devils' being fallen angels? :-/ )

Xenogears
2009-04-27, 09:57 AM
- Hellbound: The Blood War

Of course, they managed this by working together, and perhaps the outcome would be different if one of the sides won and took on the celestials alone. Regardless, it certainly sounds like the fiends have the firepower to smash the celestials if they had a mind to.

Assuming, of course, that all this hasn't been retconned 3E+ (what the hell is all this about 'devils' being fallen angels? :-/ )

Well Baalzebul used to be an Archon named Triel before he went to Hell to get more power(mentioned in the BoVD). Other than that it isn't clear about any other lords of hell's origins (especially Asmoedeus who rumors claim him to be a million different things including a fallen celestial and the original source of evil.)

Also in the BoVD it says that in the blood war the demons "marshal armies of almost infinite size" it also goes on to say "...most fiends still devote most of their attention to capturing the hearts and souls of mortal creatures and sowing depravity, destruction, and all the unspeakable things that enter into the minds of a fiend." So by those two quotes we can gather that the blood war contains almost infinitely large armies and most fiends dont even care about it all that much. So that kinda implies that there are a LOT more fiends in Hell and the Abyss than in the Blood War. Yeah if evil ever committed everything to fighting good itd be over in a week.

Ellye
2009-04-27, 03:21 PM
In my opinion, after a side wins the Blood War, instead of going to war against the Good Planes they would go to war against the remaining opposite ethical planes. For example, Baator wins the Bloody War and forge a alliance with Mechanus and (probably secretly) Celestia to go to war against Limbo and Arborea.

Satyr
2009-04-27, 04:59 PM
It is a good thing to have an impending doom in a setting. The feeling that one day, everything -not just you but everything - will come to an end and this is a serious threat is a powerful trope. It creates a feeling of relation, and it satisfies a sensationalist urge for apocalypses. So, the idea that one day, the Blood War will inevitably end and whoever wins it will inevitably devour all that ever was, is and will be is great. There is an apocalypse. What are you going to do about it?

Xenogears
2009-04-27, 05:36 PM
In my opinion, after a side wins the Blood War, instead of going to war against the Good Planes they would go to war against the remaining opposite ethical planes. For example, Baator wins the Bloody War and forge a alliance with Mechanus and (probably secretly) Celestia to go to war against Limbo and Arborea.

Why would Celestia want to destroy Limbo or Arborea? Limbo is CN. Not evil. Why would the living embodiments of good want to randomly wipe out a plane of non-evil people?

Khatoblepas
2009-04-27, 06:05 PM
Why would Celestia want to destroy Limbo or Arborea? Limbo is CN. Not evil. Why would the living embodiments of good want to randomly wipe out a plane of non-evil people?

In the Planescape cosmology, Law and Chaos are stronger than Good and Evil. Celestia is LG, Limbo is CN. Chaos is as abhorrent to them as Evil. You want living embodiment of Good and nothing else, go to a Deva in Elysium. Archons will side with Devils to defeat Slaads, if Demons are gone. Demons will side with Eladrins to defeat Modrons. The alignment system works both ways.

Dervag
2009-04-27, 06:17 PM
Fridge logic:
The devils may have stopped fighting the Blood War, but why would the demons stop? They don't give a damn about treaties and enjoy attacking anyone in range; surely they wouldn't hesitate to continue attacking the devils.


That's true. Some/most Abyassal layers don't have direct access to the other planes via transitive planes, they have to go through the First layer to get to others. I forget who said it or where, but it was said that as long as one could hold the fortresses on the first layer they could essentially 'stop up' the flow of demons except for a much smaller dribble that have their own planar magic or live on layers that lead to other planes.From a mathematical standpoint, that's not enough to explain an infinite demon army not beating everyone else in a finite universe. Things have to be even more extreme than that.

The problem is that half of infinity is still infinity. If there are an infinite number of demons, 1% of which have their own planar magic and use it to attack us, then there are an infinite number of demons attacking us* and we're all screwed. Even if only 1% of demons with planar magic have the desire to go invade other planes, there are still an infinite number of demons attacking us and we're all screwed. Et cetera... ad infinitum.:smallamused:

*And by "us," I mean everyone who isn't a demon.
_____

To get around the problem, we need to place some finite absolute limit on the number of demons who can possibly be leaving the Abyss per second, day, eon, or whatever. The number can be large or small, but it has to be finite- not just a percentage of the total.

This leads me to conclude that while the Abyss has infinite volume, except for a specific number of finite volumes within it, it is impossible to go anywhere except other parts of the Abyss. Planar magic notwithstanding, there's just no way for a demon in those parts of the Abyss to leave without having to physically trek the distance to the nearest exit-region. And since that distance is probably best measured in light-years, they're not going to bother. They may not even know or care whether there is a universe outside the Abyss.

However, summoning rituals can provide a way around this. Since there are a finite number of demon-summoners in the rest of the universe, they can only summon a finite number of demons per unit time. Therefore, it may be possible to summon demons from these "no exit" regions... but they can't leave it of their own accord. If they could, then there would be an infinite number of demons attacking everything and we'd all be screwed.
______


That's just it though, from what I understand, the good planes don't draw on souls for replenishment. Or, to put it a different way, not nearly as much as the Lower planes. On Celestia at least the goal of the souls there is to reach to the top of the mountain and merge with the plane, not become a celestial and fight for it. That is one of the reasons for the 'demons winning Blood War leads to end of everything' thing, the Upper Planes have to use a much slower replenishment process (which I don't know) to refill their numbers as opposed to the much faster version that the devils use. They have exactly what you describe above, a finite force that replenishes their numbers fast enough to stave off the demons in the Blood War.Assuming this is true, then if the Blood War ends and the demons continue to push outward through their gates, there's a problem. However, the key thing to remember is that while there may be an infinite number of demons, you're never going to encounter them all. You're only going to encounter the ones that leave the Abyss and come gunning for you- and in a finite amount of time, only a finite number of them can do that.

And an force of any finite size can be stopped by a large enough force of some other finite size.
_______


I think it's in the Book of Vile Darkness that it says the Upper Planes actually hope the Blood War never does end.But that doesn't mean the Upper Planes are truly doomed if it does end.

Haven
2009-04-27, 07:13 PM
It's possible the Blood War HAS ended before, and nobody noticed. I imagine what would happen is the demons overrun the devils, or vice-versa, and then almost immediately turn to infighting. For the demons, it would be because of their chaotic natures; for the devils, it would be their ambitions--surely, the elimination of their chaotic enemies opens up some wonderful opportunities. Take out your superiors or your rivals in a way that helps you move up in rank, but everyone tries to make their move at the same time and it's basically a new Blood War. Maybe a Cold one.

Another scenario: one side winning the Blood War would cause the lower planes to collapse somehow (or maybe it would be the other way around--the only strategy I could really see as successful would be some sort of epic magic that destroys a plane and everything linked to it, but the whole belief thing means that victory would also cause a planar shift of some sort). The survivors are too busy rebuilding their power bases to do anything to the good guys, and I imagine, broadly, evil across the universe decreases.


Speaking of which, that begs the question: What would happen in a Lady vs. Asmodeus or a Lady vs. Demogorgon confrontation?

The Lady pwns all.

But she'd leave them alone as long as they stay outta Sigil.

chiasaur11
2009-04-27, 07:56 PM
It's possible the Blood War HAS ended before, and nobody noticed. I imagine what would happen is the demons overrun the devils, or vice-versa, and then almost immediately turn to infighting. For the demons, it would be because of their chaotic natures; for the devils, it would be their ambitions--surely, the elimination of their chaotic enemies opens up some wonderful opportunities. Take out your superiors or your rivals in a way that helps you move up in rank, but everyone tries to make their move at the same time and it's basically a new Blood War. Maybe a Cold one.

Another scenario: one side winning the Blood War would cause the lower planes to collapse somehow (or maybe it would be the other way around--the only strategy I could really see as successful would be some sort of epic magic that destroys a plane and everything linked to it, but the whole belief thing means that victory would also cause a planar shift of some sort). The survivors are too busy rebuilding their power bases to do anything to the good guys, and I imagine, broadly, evil across the universe decreases.



The Lady pwns all.

But she'd leave them alone as long as they stay outta Sigil.

Well, of course she does.

She's all the Squirrels used by Pun Pun, commanded by Squirrel Girl.

We're talking a real meeting of the minds, omnipotence wise.

Haven
2009-04-27, 08:43 PM
Well, of course she does.

She's all the Squirrels used by Pun Pun, commanded by Squirrel Girl.

We're talking a real meeting of the minds, omnipotence wise.

A deadly Sigilian weapon...
Squirrels. My god.

Vexxation
2009-04-27, 08:51 PM
Well, of course she does.

She's all the Squirrels used by Pun Pun, commanded by Squirrel Girl.

We're talking a real meeting of the minds, omnipotence wise.

Squirrel Girl- best superhero ever, better than Aquaman, even, with her Nut Sacks.
...not, I'm not making that up.

That is all.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-27, 08:59 PM
From a mathematical standpoint, that's not enough to explain an infinite demon army not beating everyone else in a finite universe. Things have to be even more extreme than that....but it's an infinite universe. Heck, every plane is supposed to be infinite in size (yet you're still supposed to be able to walk from one plane to another :smallconfused:).

Thane of Fife
2009-04-27, 09:03 PM
...but it's an infinite universe. Heck, every plane is supposed to be infinite in size (yet you're still supposed to be able to walk from one plane to another :smallconfused:).

Our universe exists infinitely far in all directions, yet has a finite volume.

Infinite in one category does not mean infinite in all categories.

The 2e Monstrous Manual, for example, claims that at least 24 balors exist. That certainly doesn't imply that there are an infinite number of them (though that may be from when there were 666 layers of the Abyss rather than an infinite number).

Dervag
2009-04-28, 01:34 AM
...but it's an infinite universe. Heck, every plane is supposed to be infinite in size (yet you're still supposed to be able to walk from one plane to another :smallconfused:).If the planes (aside from the Abyss) contain infinite numbers of beings, then there's no problem with stopping infinite demon armies. But then there's also nothing special about there being an infinite number of demons. The demons might have everyone else outnumbered, but only by some finite ratio.

Put simply: no finite force could possibly defeat an infinite force. An infinite force could defeat an infinite force, if it were big enough.

If the demons have infinite numbers and no one else does, then there's only one way to explain their failure to conquer the universe. For some reason, only a finite number of them can attack us at any given time. Which requires that only a finite number of "doors" exist by which a demon can leave the Abyss of its own free will.

Meanwhile, the "rest" of the infinite number of demons (effectively all of them) do nothing but fight each other and muck about on the Abyss. Most (indeed, an infinite number) of them will have no idea that there is anything but the Abyss, because they're too far from any sources of information about other parts of the multiverse.

Again, it might be possible to summon these ignorant backwoods demons, but they can't get to you on their own.
_______


Our universe exists infinitely far in all directions, yet has a finite volume.That's not necessarily true; I refer you to Chapters 17, 18, and 19 of Gravity: an Introduction to Einstein's General Relativity, by James B. Hartle.

A closed universe (one that will eventually collapse on itself) has an absolute limit on how far you can travel in it, even if you start at the beginning of the universe and keep going until the end. However, you never run out of universe; you just run out of time before it implodes on you. In a practical sense it has a finite size defined by how long you have to travel in it, but in theory it might exist infinitely far in all directions.

A flat or open universe (one that will not eventually collapse) can have finite or infinite volume. It doesn't really make much difference to the physics.

We aren't sure whether our universe is flat, open, or closed; it's probably open. In our case, we can only see a finite volume of the universe because it has a finite age, so light has had limited time to reach us from distant places. But while the visible universe is finite-volume, we have no evidence that the universe as a whole is finite-volume.
______

Of course, all that is based on general relativity. The D&D universe is nonrelativistic (as proven by the existence of FTL teleportation effects).*

*I wonder if the Ethereal plane serves as a luminiferous ether?

It's possible to describe a universe where you can travel infinitely far, even though the universe only has a finite volume. My understanding is that the D&D Abyssal planes have infinite volume, though.

Xenogears
2009-04-28, 09:27 AM
If the planes (aside from the Abyss) contain infinite numbers of beings, then there's no problem with stopping infinite demon armies. But then there's also nothing special about there being an infinite number of demons. The demons might have everyone else outnumbered, but only by some finite ratio.

Put simply: no finite force could possibly defeat an infinite force. An infinite force could defeat an infinite force, if it were big enough.

If the demons have infinite numbers and no one else does, then there's only one way to explain their failure to conquer the universe. For some reason, only a finite number of them can attack us at any given time. Which requires that only a finite number of "doors" exist by which a demon can leave the Abyss of its own free will.

Meanwhile, the "rest" of the infinite number of demons (effectively all of them) do nothing but fight each other and muck about on the Abyss. Most (indeed, an infinite number) of them will have no idea that there is anything but the Abyss, because they're too far from any sources of information about other parts of the multiverse.

Again, it might be possible to summon these ignorant backwoods demons, but they can't get to you on their own..

As far as I know it never actually says there are infinite demons, rather only the Abyss itself is said to be infinite (and to be fair in the section of the Manual of the Planes it switches between saying infinite and nigh-infinite constantly so its rather confusing.). It's entirely possible that a large number of the infinite planes are either uninhabited or sparesely inhabited. Also even if there were inhabitents they might not be demons. There are lots of other creatures that live there too.

Also it mentions that some of the portals leading to new layers are one way only so once you get to the new layer your stuck there forever unless you've got your own magic.


Gravity: an Introduction to Einstein's General Relativity[/i], by James B. Hartle.

A closed universe (one that will eventually collapse on itself) has an absolute limit on how far you can travel in it, even if you start at the beginning of the universe and keep going until the end. However, you never run out of universe; you just run out of time before it implodes on you. In a practical sense it has a finite size defined by how long you have to travel in it, but in theory it might exist infinitely far in all directions.

A flat or open universe (one that will not eventually collapse) can have finite or infinite volume. It doesn't really make much difference to the physics.

We aren't sure whether our universe is flat, open, or closed; it's probably open. In our case, we can only see a finite volume of the universe because it has a finite age, so light has had limited time to reach us from distant places. But while the visible universe is finite-volume, we have no evidence that the universe as a whole is finite-volume.
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Of course, all that is based on general relativity. The D&D universe is nonrelativistic (as proven by the existence of FTL teleportation effects).*

*I wonder if the Ethereal plane serves as a luminiferous ether?

It's possible to describe a universe where you can travel infinitely far, even though the universe only has a finite volume. My understanding is that the D&D Abyssal planes have infinite volume, though.

Well the theory of the universe that Steven Hawking proposes(last time I read a book by him atleast) was that the the universe had finite size but you could never reach the edges of it. He compared it to how no matter how long you walked along the edge of the Earth you would never reach an edge of it but rather eventually get back to the beggining despite the fact that it is finite in size. Course this has almost nothing to do with the Abyss as it has portals leading to other layers rather than one continuous layer so an anology is irrelevant.

Dervag
2009-04-28, 09:53 AM
As far as I know it never actually says there are infinite demons, rather only the Abyss itself is said to be infinite (and to be fair in the section of the Manual of the Planes it switches between saying infinite and nigh-infinite constantly so its rather confusing.). It's entirely possible that a large number of the infinite planes are either uninhabited or sparesely inhabited. Also even if there were inhabitents they might not be demons. There are lots of other creatures that live there too.If they're demonlike (but not actual demons), that doesn't really help; there's no reason to assume they wouldn't attack us just like the demons do.

If the Abyss has infinite volume but a finite number of inhabitants, then the "infinite army" problem doesn't come up and you don't need any special explanation for the demons not conquering everything. I just assumed from what I'd heard before that the Abyss has infinite volume and infinite numbers of inhabitants.
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Also it mentions that some of the portals leading to new layers are one way only so once you get to the new layer your stuck there forever unless you've got your own magic.That does help. Again, the only way to explain an infinite army not winning a war against a finite army immediately is to require that the infinite army have a finite number of invasion routes.
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Well the theory of the universe that Steven Hawking proposes(last time I read a book by him atleast) was that the the universe had finite size but you could never reach the edges of it. He compared it to how no matter how long you walked along the edge of the Earth you would never reach an edge of it but rather eventually get back to the beggining despite the fact that it is finite in size.That's a description of the "closed universe" case, which is true if the density of stuff in the universe is high enough. The jury is still out as to whether or not that's true.

Incidentally, it's not Hawking's idea, either, though he may have put some curlicues of his own. The basic idea of closed spacetime predates Hawking's work, and might well predate Hawking himself for all I know.


Course this has almost nothing to do with the Abyss as it has portals leading to other layers rather than one continuous layer so an anology is irrelevant.Ah, but are the layers finite or infinite?

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-28, 12:11 PM
Ah, but are the layers finite or infinite?Some are; some aren't. The first layer of the Abyss, Pazunia, is infinite, as are the Demonweb Pits.