Belkar vs. Kratos

[EvilRoeSlade]

The similarities are obvious, but in the end, there can only be one chaotic evil, dual-wielding, bald god of war left standing. So which is it?

Belkar: Is at the peak of his ability, as in after he wiped out almost the entire thieves guild.

Kratos: Is a mortal at the time, but has the Blades of Chaos and Wrath of Poseidon and none of his other magic. This fight out to be about brute strength, not sorcery, don't you think?

They're in the Temple of Pandora. First one to get to the end and become a god, or kill the other, wins. There's no way for them to get to the end without running into each other though.

[Fan]

Not even a fight, Kratos has signficant reach on Belkar who is a sub par ranger as is. Add in the fact that he's about 30 times stronger as he wrestled a HYDRA with his bare hands. Belkar couldn't hope to win this fight IF he got the jump AND got 3 rounds of doing anything he wanted.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well let's be fair. It doesn't matter how crappy a ranger Belkar is (and he is pretty crappy), he's an excellent warrior. And he can throw his daggers, as well as anything else he might pick up to counter Kratos' reach.

But saying that Kratos is 30 times stronger isn't exaggerating.

[Fiery Diamond]

I'll be honest, when I saw the thread title I thought of Kratos from Tales of Symphonia. Who would, by the way, defeat Belkar with ease.

[Ascension]

I'll be honest, when I saw the thread title I thought of Kratos from Tales of Symphonia. Who would, by the way, defeat Belkar with ease.

So did I... but really, I think either should defeat Belkar with ease. Belkar's forte is cleaving through hordes of mooks. He hasn't ever soloed what could be considered a "boss" level enemy, at least not in my remembrance.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There have been a few.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

[Fan]

But, no one of those are on a level of power like the Hydra, Zeus Himself, or even just the Cyclops in compartive power. The God of War Kratos fought a guy who could take down ALL the gods by himself, and would've won. Belkar won the fights he did simply because of A: Plot, B: The skeleton was a push over, C: The Chimera wasn't really taken by him, but by V, and lastly Yok wasn't a boss level monster... Relatively weak if you ask me.

[Killer Angel]

Not even a fight, Kratos has signficant reach on Belkar who is a sub par ranger as is. Add in the fact that he's about 30 times stronger as he wrestled a HYDRA with his bare hands. Belkar couldn't hope to win this fight IF he got the jump AND got 3 rounds of doing anything he wanted.


...but Kratos is not SEXY! :smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

...but Kratos is not SEXY! :smallbiggrin:

That's up for debate, as God of War has a certain... "mini game" in which it may be proved otherwise.:smalltongue:

[Dervag]

But, no one of those are on a level of power like the Hydra, Zeus Himself, or even just the Cyclops in compartive power. The God of War Kratos fought a guy who could take down ALL the gods by himself, and would've won. Belkar won the fights he did simply because of A: Plot, B: The skeleton was a push over, C: The Chimera wasn't really taken by him, but by V, and lastly Yok wasn't a boss level monster... Relatively weak if you ask me.Isn't this supposed to be about Kratos in his "merely mortal" mode, with no magical enhancement? Without that, Kratos wouldn't be able to take down godlike threats. Huge monsters, yes... but Belkar could definitely take a hydra if he'd had the brains to bring a torch along.

I still think Kratos would win, having major advantages in reach and tactical skills. But Belkar could be a tough fight for "merely mortal" Kratos.

[Brewdude]

Pfft, see, now you are all missing some points. Just because they meet doesn't mean it's a fight to the death.

So they meet. Belkar fights one round, assesses the situation, then runs on ahead, ambushing Kratos the rest of the way, hamstringing him, then grabs the godmaking device ahead of Cratos in a fit of PLOT power.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It's true that even though they both fight dirty, Belkar is a lot more devious. Kratos' style is more 'brutally annihilate everything in his path.' Belkar likes to do that too but he has a track record of being sneaky when he knows that won't work.

[chiasaur11]

Pfft, see, now you are all missing some points. Just because they meet doesn't mean it's a fight to the death.

So they meet. Belkar fights one round, assesses the situation, then runs on ahead, ambushing Kratos the rest of the way, hamstringing him, then grabs the godmaking device ahead of Kratos in a fit of PLOT power.

So, wait.

Basically, if Belkar is to have any chance, he has to have, basically, a series of Deus Ex Machinae?

Basically, that seems to be saying Kratos would win.

[EvilRoeSlade]

How is that a series of Deus Ex Machina?

[Dervag]

So, wait.

Basically, if Belkar is to have any chance, he has to have, basically, a series of Deus Ex Machinae?

Basically, that seems to be saying Kratos would win.It's saying that Belkar is smart enough to realize that running ahead to get the treasure is better than sticking around and fighting a badass like Kratos.

Kratos is all about brutality and force. Belkar is only mostly about brutality and force, but he can be sneaky and evasive when he really cares.

Which, by and large, he doesn't, because he's a near-complete psycho who enjoys melee combat more than almost anything else.

[chiasaur11]

It's saying that Belkar is smart enough to realize that running ahead to get the treasure is better than sticking around and fighting a badass like Kratos.

Kratos is all about brutality and force. Belkar is only mostly about brutality and force, but he can be sneaky and evasive when he really cares.

Right.

I meant the plot powers bit. Probably was unclear, but if a character specifically needs that sort of thing to win, seems a bit odd for them to be thought of as the winner.

[Dervag]

Right.

I meant the plot powers bit. Probably was unclear, but if a character specifically needs that sort of thing to win, seems a bit odd for them to be thought of as the winner.If the goal is "get the treasure," it's kind of reasonable for Belkar to get to the treasure before Kratos. Moreover, the treasure will allow either combatant to kill the other.

If the real question is "who wins a fight in a huge cage, Kratos or Belkar?" then talking about the treasure at the end of the temple is in fact a deus ex machina.

So whether that counts as a deus ex machina depends on your victory conditions.

[Fan]

It's saying that Belkar is smart enough to realize that running ahead to get the treasure is better than sticking around and fighting a badass like Kratos.

Kratos is all about brutality and force. Belkar is only mostly about brutality and force, but he can be sneaky and evasive when he really cares.

Which, by and large, he doesn't, because he's a near-complete psycho who enjoys melee combat more than almost anything else.

Belkar+smart= Absolutely out of character... Belkar isn't the brightest bulb in the box, and that 1 round would be enough for Kratos to not only wrap his chain swords around Belkar throw him into the air, and proceed to beat the living FAWK out of him.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Ehh, no.

Kratos wasn't able to do that to Theseus or Perseus, and there's no reason to think he could do that to Belkar.

[Fan]

Ehh, no.

Kratos wasn't able to do that to Theseus or Perseus, and there's no reason to think he could do that to Belkar.

Except Belkar isn't a legendary hero of Myth that defeats Krakens, Medusea, and other nasty immortal beasties by himself. Belkar's not that powerful in ANY retrospect.. He's unintellgent, the least developed character, and has a max strength of 23 while raging a feature not only reduced by TWF but also, a class feature he never uses.
Kratos can rip the top halves of Hydra's heads off from inside their mouths. That's a strength of at LEAST 40 considering size, and comparison. He has a reach of at least 40 ft as his chain reach swords shoot out to at least that long in the beginning, AND he does this all without the aid of magic aside from his obviously magic swords.

[Dervag]

Belkar+smart= Absolutely out of character... Belkar isn't the brightest bulb in the box, and that 1 round would be enough for Kratos to not only wrap his chain swords around Belkar throw him into the air, and proceed to beat the living FAWK out of him.Remember this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html) incident? Belkar isn't especially smart, but he is cunning, and he can use the environment to his advantage, as we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html).

I still think Kratos would probably win, but it's not such a mismatch that Belkar doesn't have a chance.

[Berserk Monk]

While I do agree Kratos would defeat Belkar, even as a mortal, you're all forgetting something: Kratos isn't the only one to bring down a hydra. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html)

[Fan]

While I do agree Kratos would defeat Belkar, even as a mortal, you're all forgetting something: Kratos isn't the only one to bring down a hydra. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html)

Belkar doesn't do it with his bare hands.:smallamused:

[chiasaur11]

While I do agree Kratos would defeat Belkar, even as a mortal, you're all forgetting something: Kratos isn't the only one to bring down a hydra. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html)

So did Hercules.

Hey, that might be a bit closer a fight.

Marvel Hercules Vs. Kratos. Both kill gods and monsters, and they're both Zeus's son.

[AgentPaper]

I think if Belkar could use the same tactics that he used against Miko, he would probably win. Kratos isn't best known for his brains, and falls to hilariously obvious traps. (Zeus: "Go pick up that sword I used to sap the titan's power. It'll totally make you badass and no sap your power." Kratos: "Sweet!") Kratos isn't completely screwed, for example if Belkar slips up and gives him an opening, but if it worked against Miko, it can work against Kratos. (Kratos being much, much stronger than Miko, but with less brains.)

In a straight-up fight, just brute strength, however, Kratos wins hands-down. That at least seems to be something everyone agrees with, but it's not really where Belkar does his best, even if it's what he enjoys the most and does most often. :smallamused:

[Fan]

I think if Belkar could use the same tactics that he used against Miko, he would probably win. Kratos isn't best known for his brains, and falls to hilariously obvious traps. (Zeus: "Go pick up that sword I used to sap the titan's power. It'll totally make you badass and no sap your power." Kratos: "Sweet!") Kratos isn't completely screwed, for example if Belkar slips up and gives him an opening, but if it worked against Miko, it can work against Kratos. (Kratos being much, much stronger than Miko, but with less brains.)

In a straight-up fight, just brute strength, however, Kratos wins hands-down. That at least seems to be something everyone agrees with, but it's not really where Belkar does his best, even if it's what he enjoys the most and does most often. :smallamused:

Yeah, Belkar LOST that fight to Miko, and would've died if not for V stepping in... I really doubt that he would try that against a shirtless opononet that he knows nothing about. He fought Miko 2 times in the past, and thus knew he couldn't her straight up. Belkar would at least TRY to beat up Kratos, and Kratos would kill him for trying. Also, name one instance of Belkar setting a trap, or using anything other than attacks, or intimidate in combat.... Seriously the best he's done is wait in a box of pineapples for the right chance to pelt the Wights that he knew were going to be in there.

[AgentPaper]

Yeah, Belkar LOST that fight to Miko, and would've died if not for V stepping in... I really doubt that he would try that against a shirtless opononet that he knows nothing about. He fought Miko 2 times in the past, and thus knew he couldn't her straight up. Belkar would at least TRY to beat up Kratos, and Kratos would kill him for trying. Also, name one instance of Belkar setting a trap, or using anything other than attacks, or intimidate in combat.... Seriously the best he's done is wait in a box of pineapples for the right chance to pelt the Wights that he knew were going to be in there.

Hey, I never said it was likely he would use it, just that if he did he would have a good chance. And he lost to Miko because he wanted to, if you recall. Maybe he would have lost anyways, but it didn't seem like it. And his tactics would most likely work even better on Kratos than Miko, as I said.

As for how he would know to use the tactics, well for one that's not so much relevant to the discussion, and 2, it's possible. For one, he could have learned about Kratos beforehand from some meddling god or random mook Kratos didn't happen to kill. It also wouldn't be a stretch for him to see Kratos (but not be seen, even without trying it wouldn't be hard for a halfling with ranks in hide) and decide that he wouldn't be able to take him in a straight up fight. And even if he did rush in blindly and get killed, death isn't an impossible barrier, in DnD or the greek mythos, so he could very much come back for some revenge.

[Fan]

Hey, I never said it was likely he would use it, just that if he did he would have a good chance. And he lost to Miko because he wanted to, if you recall. Maybe he would have lost anyways, but it didn't seem like it. And his tactics would most likely work even better on Kratos than Miko, as I said.

As for how he would know to use the tactics, well for one that's not so much relevant to the discussion, and 2, it's possible. For one, he could have learned about Kratos beforehand from some meddling god or random mook Kratos didn't happen to kill. It also wouldn't be a stretch for him to see Kratos (but not be seen, even without trying it wouldn't be hard for a halfling with ranks in hide) and decide that he wouldn't be able to take him in a straight up fight. And even if he did rush in blindly and get killed, death isn't an impossible barrier, in DnD or the greek mythos, so he could very much come back for some revenge.

Except he would've lost... Dieing constitutes giving Kratos enough time to get the macguffin... Also, thats a dues ex machina you just mentioned... As Kratos doesn't have any magic he hasn't irked the gods quite yet, and therefore they wouldn't CARE about Belkar, but they would care about Kratos... Also death IS a impenetrable barrier in the Greek Mythos, Zeus himself who can take on EVERY GREEK GOD IN EXISTANCE AT ONCE, got his ass stomped by the fates when he tried to save a mortal from death.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yeah, Belkar LOST that fight to Miko, and would've died if not for V stepping in...

Are you sure about that? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html)

All we know is that Belkar can't beat Miko twice in a row. He WON that fight.


Also, name one instance of Belkar setting a trap, or using anything other than attacks, or intimidate in combat....

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)

[Icewalker]

It seems to me the issue at this point isn't that Belkar can't set up a trap (he's seen to have done so, if only once, and not particularly adeptly). The issue is that he wouldn't. He'd go for the straight fight, and Kratos wouldn't let him escape, I don't think Belkar would be able to make it out alive. Kratos is just kind of ludicrously powerful, Belkar is just really violent.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It seems to me the issue at this point isn't that Belkar can't set up a trap (he's seen to have done so, if only once, and not particularly adeptly).

Oh really? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)

I don't think you're giving Belkar enough credit. He has everything Kratos does except the Blades of Chaos and the demigod strength. Which, admittedly, is enough to give Kratos the edge he needs to win in a straight up fight, but Belkar is tough enough that no one can kill him "just like that" without using some sort of insta-death magic or something along those lines.

[Icewalker]

Yes, really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html). Your example is a hugely incomplete one. Yes, he used the environment to his advantage instead of fighting straight, because, when he attempted to fight straight moments prior, he was reminded that it wasn't an option.

He chooses a face to face confrontation before going to any other methods. And he would lose it to Kratos before he got the option to change his plan of attack.

And, while it may take some kind of really extreme blows to drop Belkar, that just brings us back to the aforementioned demigod strength issue. I do believe Kratos rips peoples heads off quite regularly, and I'd say Belkar's head, thick as it may be, is not any more strongly attached to his torso. :smallwink:

[kpenguin]

Kratos is going to have a hard time hitting Belkar. Belkar is not only small, but he is infinitely small in one dimension. All he has to do is turn sideways toward Kratos and BOOM! untouchable.

[AgentPaper]

Yes, really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html). Your example is a hugely incomplete one. Yes, he used the environment to his advantage instead of fighting straight, because, when he attempted to fight straight moments prior, he was reminded that it wasn't an option.

He chooses a face to face confrontation before going to any other methods. And he would lose it to Kratos before he got the option to change his plan of attack.

And, while it may take some kind of really extreme blows to drop Belkar, that just brings us back to the aforementioned demigod strength issue. I do believe Kratos rips peoples heads off quite regularly, and I'd say Belkar's head, thick as it may be, is not any more strongly attached to his torso. :smallwink:

So, your argument is that Belkar could win, but he doesn't want to? That's pretty damned flimsy.

And yes, Belkar would lose in a fair fight, and if the two of them just ran into each other, that fair fight would happen and Belkar more likely than not wouldn't have a second chance. But can you really say that you know Belkar's character so well that there is absolutely no scenario in which Belkar would decide to use ambush tactics? I think that scenario is much more likely than you would admit, especially with Belkar's newfound "fake nice" schtick. It seems more likely now than before that Belkar would meet Kratos, pretend to be nice and not piss him off, and then lead him straight to his doom. He's not so dumb that he couldn't figure out Kratos was too tough for him, once Kratos started setting about ripping people heads off. He might end up fighting him foolishly, but that's definitely not the only way things might happen.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, I mean, it's possible that he could read the fight beforehand and decide to choose ambush tactics instead, which would be a more drawn out fight where he'd have a pretty solid chance of winning.

It just seems less like him, he tends to go for the straight fight, the examples of otherwise are all because he was either forced to (Yokyok), or had already had it proven to him (in a straight fight) (Miko) that he couldn't take the other person directly.

Seems like which of these goes down depends on really variable circumstances. Does Belkar come upon Kratos unnoticed, and see him fight? That'd give him the understanding to set up traps instead of fighting directly.

I think if Belkar sees Kratos fight before the two of them engage, he'd choose traps. Otherwise, I think he'd probably try straight combat.

[EvilRoeSlade]

And, while it may take some kind of really extreme blows to drop Belkar, that just brings us back to the aforementioned demigod strength issue. I do believe Kratos rips peoples heads off quite regularly, and I'd say Belkar's head, thick as it may be, is not any more strongly attached to his torso. :smallwink:

Kratos can only bring his strength to bear when he's lifting, pushing, or pulling. It's far less useful in combat, where he can't one-hit kill his enemies on a regular basis (and if you think about what kind of weapons the Blades of Chaos are, you'll realize that they don't rely on leverage or muscle power all that much).

And if he walked up to Belkar and tried to grab him, he'd probably lose a few fingers for his effort. He only does that to wimpy skeletons, not true threats.

[Icewalker]

That's fair. Still, I think in a straight fight, Kratos would likely come out on top. He's pretty ridiculous when it comes to combat, Belkar is as well, but really less so.

If Belkar did get the jump on him and knew that a straight fight wouldn't work, his ambushes would make it a lot more even of a fight.

[AgentPaper]

So then I think we can call this finished for the most part:

In a straight fight, Belkar is probably going to lose.
If Belkar uses traps and trickery, Kratos is probably going to lose.

Pre-curse, a straight fight was probably the more likely option, but after his little "revelation", I think the second scenario is now at least as likely as the first. I might still give the win to Kratos, since he's probably more likely to win in the second scenario than Belkar is in the first, but it's pretty close. Good versus material, at any rate.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, sounds like a pretty solid conclusion, I'd agree.

Gotta say, pretty fair fight, but however it turned out it would also be an absolutely ridiculous one.

[Sholos]

So then I think we can call this finished for the most part:

In a straight fight, Belkar is probably going to lose.
If Belkar uses traps and trickery, Kratos is probably going to lose.
I think it's more that in a straight fight, Belkar will definitely lose, and in a non-straight fight, Belkar is marginally less likely to lose.


Pre-curse, a straight fight was probably the more likely option, but after his little "revelation", I think the second scenario is now at least as likely as the first. I might still give the win to Kratos, since he's probably more likely to win in the second scenario than Belkar is in the first, but it's pretty close. Good versus material, at any rate.
Remember, in this fight Belkar would have no reason to fake being nice. He's got an enemy that he can go after without anyone berating him for it (save Celia, perhaps), so that's what he's going to do. His "nice" thing is only going to go as far as it has to.

[jogiff]

Are you sure about that? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html)

All we know is that Belkar can't beat Miko twice in a row. He WON that fight.



Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)

Haha. "WANG!"