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grautry
2009-04-23, 03:05 PM
So. I've just borrowed friend's Fiendish Codex II and I'm reading through it.

I came upon the Pact section and expected serious badassery there. Especially after reading the V-arc. Sure, once-in-a-century kind of deal, but I still expected that your average infernal dealer would be a seriously powerful dude. After all, if someone forfeits their own soul, you expect that the reward will be appropriately powerful, right?

Apparently not so. Let's assume an, oh, 15th level character.

If he trades his soul for cash, he can receive 120k. Nice, but not terribly awesome. By level 20 that would be about 15% of his total WBL.

Or maybe he can gain 7.8k xp. That's quite nice... But it doesn't even advance him by a level(15k needed to go from 15 to 16).

Or maybe he can get a feat. If he's a skilled bargainer and goes over the default Pact Certain rating, he can get two. Or if he's really badass at bargaining, maybe he can get +2 to an ability(the equivalent of an about 55k Tome).

If you add enough gouda then the "any level" spell slot Pact could give you, say, a 1000th level spell slot, allowing for some insane cheese. But that's clearly not how it's meant to work.

This is weak. This is seriously weak. How in the world did anyone at WotC think that this could be in any way a tempting deal? No sane adventurer would ever, ever, ever do this. All the power you gain from an infernal deal where you sell your own soul is less than what you'd gain if you simply advanced a level. And certainly less if you advanced two.

My question is: did anyone create a homebrew Infernal Pact system that actually offers rewards that would make someone think of selling their own soul?

Lady Tialait
2009-04-23, 03:36 PM
What are the mechanical penalties for selling one's soul? If any?

Can you steal someone elses soul and use it, then sell it later?

Just a couple of questions. I'm just like that.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-23, 03:39 PM
They seem to be a response to the unbelievably breakable rules for sacrifices in the 3.0 book of vile cheatiness that could give you Wishes and other game breaking stuff for the grand cost of tricking out a skill modifier.

The soul selling rules have the problem that unless they're fairly pansyass the guy that does it and doesn't care about the long term of the campaign can use it to become instantly hideously overpowered, much like the PC that contracts a decent form of lycanthropy. If it isn't at that level then yeah, it'll feel mighty pointless but it wont break your campaign into little tiny slivers.

Personally I'd just rule that you can sell other peoples souls if you have them on hand (tied up and gagged or locked in a soulgem) and then stack the benefits, +1 feat isn't too shabby when you can do it for the cost of a random bar wench, just be sure to play up the consequences in game of that level of diabolism.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-23, 03:47 PM
1) Trap the Soul Gem or that weird metal in Complete Warrior. Free XP/feats/spell slots/ect. Effectively, a new form of treasure.

2) A Necropolitian with Contingent Revive Undead, an Elan with a Cleric Friend, ect: WHo cares about your soul, because you are going to live forever.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-23, 03:51 PM
V was an exception to the rule, rather then the rule in practically every way. The fact is the whole thing is SUPPOSED to smack of instant gratification with long-term drawback. The fact is it ISN'T supposed to be a good idea, a trick. Picture yourself in this situation, not an adventurer and not knowing the implicit details about Pacts and how devils try to hurry up your side of the payment. Just the plays and stories about people cheating devils.

It's been an incredibly crappy day, it's raining on a Monday, and all you want to do is have a nice pint and kick back. Your farm was one of a few that got burned down by a marauding red dragon. You head down to the tavern and order your favorite brew then told that's it's out. You end up with some piss-poor concoction that could gag a otyugh when your approached by a charming guy you don't remember seeing around town before. He talks you up, seems really sympathetic to your troubles and buys you a pint. A good pint too, then asks you a simple question.

"What if I could help you get back at the dragon? I hear it's got quite the hoard amassed up in it's cave, enough to turn a man's fates around even to set him up as a lord. How much is that worth to you?"

You don't believe, why should you? This is just some crazy bloke with delusions of grandeur. Then he proves it to you. Tells you to ask for any one thing and, thinking him a fool, ask for money. A bag of gold pieces finds it's way unto your belt. Understandably impressed you ask him what his price is.

"When you die, I get your soul. Don't worry about it after that, it'll be out of your hands and you have a good long time to live your life. This is how all the great heroes get started after all."

You think about and agree. Why not? If the man can give you enough power to take down a red dragon, then surely you have nothing to fear from him and you can use the dragon's hoard to get some bishops to cleanse your soul to trick the man.
---

It's only later that you find out the +5 red dragon dread keen longsword coated in dragonsbane is the perfect tool to slay a red dragon. Too bad it's death triggered it's contingencies and revived a clone of the red dragon...and your sword gives a -10 penalty to reflex saves vs. breath weapons. Well hey, you DID slay a dragon.
---

That's how it'd work out. That's how most of them DO work out. You think a campaign specific/ PLOT specific event by a rules anomaly should be the norm, and frankly it shouldn't.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-23, 03:56 PM
So. I've just borrowed friend's Fiendish Codex II and I'm reading through it.

I came upon the Pact section and expected serious badassery there. Especially after reading the V-arc. Sure, once-in-a-century kind of deal, but I still expected that your average infernal dealer would be a seriously powerful dude. After all, if someone forfeits their own soul, you expect that the reward will be appropriately powerful, right?

What 1/3rd of a level 30 character is 10 levels.

That is what 3 feats at most. These feats don't have a time limit so the benefits are actually equal when you realize that.

V's soul is worth 3 epic characters for an unspecificed time (ifthey leave her) or she gives up them voluntarily.

She can't even be sure they will last a sesson (only 2 did last a session, as 1 left).



This is weak. This is seriously weak. How in the world did anyone at WotC think that this could be in any way a tempting deal? No sane adventurer would ever, ever, ever do this. All the power you gain from an infernal deal where you sell your own soul is less than what you'd gain if you simply advanced a level. And certainly less if you advanced two.

Dude, adventurers are rarely sane.



My question is: did anyone create a homebrew Infernal Pact system that actually offers rewards that would make someone think of selling their own soul?

The problem is how broken that might be.

Is the +2 ability an inherent bonus or untyped? That is worth more if untyped.

lesser_minion
2009-04-23, 05:10 PM
I think a standard mechanic would definitely need to tack on some mechanical penalties to a character if a demon is going to grab their soul when they die. In the very least the instant they die they qualify as dead, gibbed, obliterated, annihilated, eternally destroyed and just plain gone forever.

I think a contract granting your soul to another when you die would also be worth a -8 deduction to charisma at least.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-23, 05:27 PM
I think a standard mechanic would definitely need to tack on some mechanical penalties to a character if a demon is going to grab their soul when they die. In the very least the instant they die they qualify as dead, gibbed, obliterated, annihilated, eternally destroyed and just plain gone forever.

I think a contract granting your soul to another when you die would also be worth a -8 deduction to charisma at least.

Nah, I wouldn't suck him with a Cha penalty, I'd do one worse...

When you die, the demon gets your soul. Period. That means any form of Raise Dead automatically fails. Much like a Soul Gem, in that the soul is not there to put back in the body.

No Clone foolery, no 'Contingency Revivification, so I'm not really dead, right?', if you are Dead, even for an instant, your soul goes to the Demon, and you need to write up a new character, because that one can never be raised. Unless you go kick that demon's ass and get the soul back, which would be an awesome quest.

Oslecamo
2009-04-23, 05:39 PM
V Too bad it's death triggered it's contingencies and revived a clone of the red dragon...


And that's how ALL dragons should be played by the DMs! Killing it once is only the beggining of the challenge.:smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2009-04-23, 05:40 PM
Well, I mentioned doing that as well - admittedly not explicitly blocking out contingent revivifications and so on. But I said annihilated, which explicitly requires the direct intervention of a deity to resolve.

Eldariel
2009-04-23, 05:41 PM
"When you die, I get your soul. Don't worry about it after that, it'll be out of your hands and you have a good long time to live your life. This is how all the great heroes get started after all."

What?! What kind of infernal bargaining have you been into? No devil seeking to corrupt you outright tells you that "Yes, this will cost you your soul." except in very special circumstances, like when the mortal is obviously indifferent to his fate in the afterlife. This is entirely in the lawyer territory. The whole point is to get you to sign the contract without really realizing that yes, you are forfeiting your soul.

It will be stated in the contract, yes, but he won't outright tell me "Give me your soul for X" unless the guy is really desperate and might actually do it (like V was - all in all, that was pretty good negotiating considering V's Int). The devils' contracts are long and go to minute details. As much is stated in FCII. Few mortals will be able to read the fine print. It isn't breaking Baatezu Laws not to mention something.


The dealing starts with promises of small power and rewards for doing some obviously evil, but seemingly harmless things. Greater evil for greater power. Tempting offer to any mortal. Then the devil has the decree in the contract that "Once all the promised powers are given, the recipient's immortal soul will belong to Devil X."

I mean, if someone's life or the life of one they love is forfeit, they might in desperation sign a Pact Certain to get out of that situation. But otherwise, there're many cases where the mortal wouldn't knowingly sell his soul, but might just trade something for power. For example, our Really Bad Day man in your example might, or might not sign a pact to sell his soul. I'm fairly sure he would sign a Pact Insidious with a side-clause that forfeits his soul, especially if the devil says something like "The payment for this is soul." and then has a Pact stating "For killing a man, you'll get XnY weapon and the power that can be used to slay the Dragon." The man, given that he's probably not in the most contemplative mood, will likely believe that the devil simply wants the soul of the man he is to kill. Little does he know that the two things are separate - killing the man is just a step in his corruption, and it's his soul that is forfeit once the clauses of the Pact are fulfilled.


Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer contains an awesome section where you can encounter a person who has signed a pact, the devil he signed it with and you'll even get to read the pact itself. It was a pretty beautiful pact overall. A great example of how to get a mortal to condemn themselves.

JellyPooga
2009-04-23, 05:43 PM
If I were designing some kind of 'Sold your Soul' rule, I'd simply tack on an arbitary Level Adjustment based on the magnitude of the sale...a morphic template based on the wishes granted and their impact.

Level Adjustment is a purely metagame concept and represents nothing but the equivalent power-ratio of your character in relation to others. If you've sold your soul for something that is the equivalent of 1 character level, BAM! LA +1. The consequences after your character dies are irrelevent because you have a power increase now, so that should be represented now. So if you want to sell your soul in game and your price equals the equivalent of a +10 LA, then as GM I'm well within my rights to insist that your character become an NPC or take no further part (at least until other characters catch up, if that occurs) because it unbalances the player equilibrium.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-04-23, 06:03 PM
The ability bonus is never stated as any type, therefore I'd say it was untyped, in which case it really is worth a lot.
And the mechanic isn't as bad as other soul selling ones I've seen due to this one specifying the only cost is that the recipient is unable to be raised, reincarnated or resurrected . It just means you put you total lives left counter to 0 and watch you don't get killed doing something stupid.

However, to get real rewards you have to do acts of corruption (which means you cant be corrupted already) which is the main bane here.
You want +5 on that stat, fair enough, go kill every king in every kingdom, I'll give you +1 for each you kill, plus the cost of your soul when you die.
Only want a +2? Okay, make those two kingdoms declare war on each other, and your soul.
Only want to give your soul? Hmm well I guess you are important, a +1 is fair enough.

The power gain is equal to the evil you do, otherwise why would anyone care to give you that much for you soul, more so if your nothing special.

Benejeseret
2009-04-23, 06:32 PM
I have recently taken a new approach to pacts in my game.

The problem with the selling of the soul is that there is NO repercussions to the player. A DM with lots of time on their hands can indeed work in nefarious backfire plans etc and this is the way to go....but really, if the PC gets dead at some point and thus screwed then they re-roll a character as a worst case. Most of my players are fine with re-rolling (they enjoy it).

So, I have started viewing Pacts along the lines of Graft/Symbiont rules. You get something of immediate benefit - but have to immediately take some disadvantage. As they come to use this new power, or even enjoy/rely on it, it adds more and more benefits along with more and more disadvantages until one day....they wake up and they are no-longer really in control of their body.

Eg.

One of my players recently found a great weapon that was designed to tempt him. It was in fact a possessed item. It happens to be a hellfire-hand-cannon.

Equipping to cannon, it burrows its power cords directly into his arm (loss of 5hp permanently, loss of the hand while "equipped") and powers itself off of his soul/body.
Benefit=a good ranged weapon with unlimited ammo

The lure = he can 'boost' its power at a direct cost to his health to mega-blast a stream of hellfire. For every 2hp he loses (non-permanent=untyped damage) he deals a nd6 30' cone of hellfire (so 30hp loss means a 15d6 blast as a standard action) and the total of "n" cannot exceed his HD.

The catch = He thinks it is just a graft and that I'm the coolest DM ever. He thinks the sacrifices of health are balanced to the benefits.
BUT, each time his total hp lost to the item reaches 50hp (I set this according to his level and it may raise by stage) the item 'upgrades'. Also, I work in a secret -2 penalty to any will saves against acting violently (like from a Confusion spell) and describe things to him in a way that leads him toward violent acts. Other violent/evil acts will be counted as 'bonus hp' toward the upgrade and an alignment shift (if the player embraces one) is an auto-stage upgrade

Stage 2

As above, and gains +2 Natural Armour as the weapon integrates farther up his arm. Cost is 2hp more permanently gone (powering weapon) and a -2 to charisma related checks.

Stage 3

Gains the ability to Rage as per a barbarian once per day. Cost is a further -2 on will checks (making it -4) against keeping/regaining control at DM's secret discretion. A wee bit more railroading him into violent and despicable acts.

Stage 3

As above, and gains a +2 profane bonus (I tell him its a weapon enhancement bonus) to hit/damage. The weapons now glows red and infernal whispers radiate from it = Cost of -5 to all hide/move silently checks and any Good clerics etc will react more negatively toward him. First real signs something other than a neat legacy item is in play. Removing the item now become complicated and may need to loose the arm completely.

Stage 4

He gains Powerful Build and the weapon increases a size catagory. He is seriously corrupted physically by now. The power cords/runes/spread of the weapon is all over his upper torso and down through his legs. Cost is that he now radiates a strong evil aura (reactions/spell affects him as if evil even if alignment has not followed), and beneficial divine magic no longer works on him (The Gods refuse!)

Stage 5

Nearly a full conversion. Fully gains a size increase with all related stat advancements. Plus the profane enhancement increases to +3 weapon hit/damage and now armor. His body turns to a brass/metal color and texture and his taint is now impossible to hide. His Rage ability can now go off at any time (DM fiat) and it is very hard for him to regain normal control (similar to a Frenzied Bezerker). If the Player chooses to continue he is doomed.....

Stage 6

The infernal powers fully assume control of his body and he becomes a BBEG of the DM. He has become a mini-Hellfire Engine golem. Did I mention the character was playing a warforged? Yep, hence the Hellfire Engine and the flavor.

This may result in a re-roll...but in my case it results in his soul being cast out of his body as a ghost (he's not 'dead'....just bodyless) he was able to possess another warforge for the battle to re-claim his body.


Edit:
With all this in the works my encounters were designed harder to a) account for his uber-ness and b) help convince him to use the powers.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-23, 06:51 PM
What?! What kind of infernal bargaining have you been into? No devil seeking to corrupt you outright tells you that "Yes, this will cost you your soul." except in very special circumstances, like when the mortal is obviously indifferent to his fate in the afterlife.

None actually and I also had neither the time or inclination to type out a full on devil contract for what amounted to a limited example. :smalltongue: Plus I don't have the lawyer-knowledge to make it seem authentic.

That, and it's never come up in any of the games I've played or run. Either my characters are too good (rare) or smart (more often, in my group I'm forced to play caster types most often) to accept a deal like that. In the games I run...well they haven't come across baatezu yet and two of my (grand total) three players know better then to take devils lightly in any way and the third would rather kill them outright then bargain with them.

Eldariel
2009-04-23, 07:02 PM
None actually and I also had neither the time or inclination to type out a full on devil contract for what amounted to a limited example. :smalltongue: Plus I don't have the lawyer-knowledge to make it seem authentic.

That, and it's never come up in any of the games I've played or run. Either my characters are too good (rare) or smart (more often, in my group I'm forced to play caster types most often) to accept a deal like that. In the games I run...well they haven't come across baatezu yet and two of my (grand total) three players know better then to take devils lightly in any way and the third would rather kill them outright then bargain with them.

Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.


Also note that all of the above is written tongue in cheek. That said, please corrupt your PCs anyways. :smalltongue:

Jothki
2009-04-23, 07:34 PM
Is there any real need to go for someone's soul the first time? If you genuinely help them out, then odds are that they'll be back.

If I wanted to corrupt someone, I'd start by offering them a few small favors for free or for little cost. Once they're used to going to me for help, I'd jack up the prices but make my assistance more significant as well. Once they've gotten over their hesitation to do evil things in exchange for power and are dependent on what I've given them, I'd let them know that I could take everything I gave them away, and offer to make it permanent in exchange for their soul.

And then I'd leave them alone for the rest of their life once I have their soul, unless they choose to contact me for more power, which I would give them in exchange for whatever corrupt tasks I think are appropriate. Satisfied customers make for good advertising.

Eldariel
2009-04-23, 07:38 PM
If I wanted to corrupt someone, I'd start by offering them a few small favors for free or for little cost. Once they're used to going to me for help, I'd jack up the prices but make my assistance more significant as well. Once they've gotten over their hesitation to do evil things in exchange for power and are dependent on what I've given them, I'd let them know that I could take everything I gave them away, and offer to make it permanent in exchange for their soul.

That's what Pact Insidious is for entirely. However, if you can get the soul on the first go, go for it. After all, it's the thing of true interest for the Devil.


And then I'd leave them alone for the rest of their life once I have their soul, unless they choose to contact me for more power, which I would give them in exchange for whatever corrupt tasks I think are appropriate. Satisfied customers make for good advertising.

Depends, in some cases it may be prudent to hasten their death. The one thing they could try is to slay the Devil they made the pact with thus freeing them from his claim (when slain on their homeplane, an outsider is gone for good). It may be prudent to try to counteract that, although of course the Pact itself can go a long way here.

But by and large, yeah, let the short-lived mortals perish on their own - few hundred years is nothing for a devil.

Mystic Muse
2009-04-23, 07:51 PM
Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.


Also note that all of the above is written tongue in cheek. That said, please corrupt your PCs anyways. :smalltongue:

some people don't like evil parties or soul selling. I know that if anybody in my group tried to make a faustian deal and the DM let them I'd be outta there faster than you can say just about any word in ANY language.

don't give the religiouus nutjobs an actual reason to believe D&D is EVIL! (not against religion in any way shape or form. just some of the ideas it somehow produces)

on topic yeah that does seem rather underpowered for selling your soul but given the already mass quantity of them along with the fact that you aren't the ONLY heroes in the world it seems pretty logical and +2 to any stat is equivalent to 8 level ups

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-23, 08:17 PM
Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.

Pfft, I don't need lecturing on how to corrupt. :smalltongue: I had a master plan (that in all likely hood would have worked) to get all the members of my group to sell my character (yes, I WAS a PC, a harvester devil in fact) their souls. Even if they had refused I would have likely gotten a solid hundred or more of lower levels souls out of it.

As for not even Pacts with little Imps...lets just say that I've talked to the two friends too smart to deal with devils a little too much about the Nine Hells and how the contracts work for them to ever sign anything if they ever even thought there was a devil around. No, not even if it was just a tavern receipt. Yes, it would have been OOC knowledge interfering in the game but I put the fear of Asmodeus in them and for that I am not sorry. :smallamused:

Dixieboy
2009-04-23, 08:40 PM
What are the mechanical penalties for selling one's soul? If any? If i remember correctly it's similar to the hellbreds/outsiders issue, if you die you can't be raised by the usual "Raise dead" spell.

Oh, and you'll be spending eternity (Which is a very, very long time) in hell.


Can you steal someone elses soul and use it, then sell it later?
That should be possible, but what do you mean by "use"?
You should be able to use it for bargaining as devils don't seem to care much about the soul in particular. (It serving as mere coin and playthings for them)

Lamech
2009-04-23, 09:00 PM
I've always wondered how do these pacts work with mind-control magic around? "Hello harvester devil I'm thinking about selling my soul. Charm Monster. "Anyway, I just got this new fancy spell it keeps people safe from some mind control magic for 1 day per caster level. Want me to cast it on you? Geas, Mindrape. Alright down to bargening: {Lots of leaglese some things like feats that can be granted and something that the devils can not grant. And of course, no soul if the things aren't granted. All cool stuff is irreversible.}" And then kill the harvester devil.

If I ever get offered a deal with the devil I'm breaking out the mind controls. I also suspect that several pit fiends will be sent after me, but thats okay.

I also recall there being a fairish trial that allows you to weasel your way out of it. And there is nothing that mentioned about the side of truth having an advantage in the case, just pump those skill modifiers.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-23, 09:57 PM
V's soul is worth 3 epic characters for an unspecificed time (ifthey leave her) or she gives up them voluntarily.

She can't even be sure they will last a sesson (only 2 did last a session, as 1 left).

I'm stopping this thread right here for a second. I've got a Minor in English, so I just can't pass up correcting you.

It's He. Not She. When referencing a gender-unknown object or person in the English language, you automatically assume the masculine term, at least until the actual gender is revealed. Using She to reference a character like V (who is gender-unknown) is grammatically incorrect, no matter how politically correct it may be.

This has seriously been bugging me for years, as humanity has slowly shifted from the proper use of the English language to the butchery that is Politically Correct, all for the sake of refraining from offending a group.

Guess what? English students and professors are a group too. My professor taught me that using the politically correct term is grammatically wrong (for the record, that professor is a woman), and can cost you points on exams.

Why am I mentioning this? Because this mistake has cost me a total of $220 before. I'm letting you know this as a means of preventing the same mistake from reoccurring. If you wish to debate this point, PM me, don't derail the thread any further.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-23, 10:02 PM
I've always wondered how do these pacts work with mind-control magic around? "Hello harvester devil I'm thinking about selling my soul. Charm Monster. "Anyway, I just got this new fancy spell it keeps people safe from some mind control magic for 1 day per caster level. Want me to cast it on you? Geas, Mindrape. Alright down to bargening: {Lots of leaglese some things like feats that can be granted and something that the devils can not grant. And of course, no soul if the things aren't granted. All cool stuff is irreversible.}" And then kill the harvester devil.

That wouldn't work for the same reason devils can't dominate someone and then have them sign the contract while under the influence. It'd be instant bounds to void in a Lawful court if either side was 'under the influence' of mind control spells. The difference being that it's highly unlikely to be fair towards a mortal who mind-controlled a devil and the punishment would be...well...Hellish.

Lamech
2009-04-23, 10:14 PM
That wouldn't work for the same reason devils can't dominate someone and then have them sign the contract while under the influence. It'd be instant bounds to void in a Lawful court if either side was 'under the influence' of mind control spells. The difference being that it's highly unlikely to be fair towards a mortal who mind-controlled a devil and the punishment would be...well...Hellish.
This is why the pact specifies irreversible.:smallbiggrin: I'm still not sure how you handle the pit fiends they send after you. And the inevitables. I can still see a chaotic/impulsive character doing this though.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-04-23, 10:40 PM
This is why the pact specifies irreversible.:smallbiggrin: I'm still not sure how you handle the pit fiends they send after you. And the inevitables. I can still see a chaotic/impulsive character doing this though.

...If the pact is void, then there would be no irreversible clause. I mean...they have entire teams on Mechanus trying to find loopholes in infernal contracts, especially from the higher up devils. And you believe mind control is the solution no one has thought of? :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2009-04-23, 10:51 PM
It's He. Not She. When referencing a gender-unknown object or person in the English language, you automatically assume the masculine term, at least until the actual gender is revealed. Using She to reference a character like V (who is gender-unknown) is grammatically incorrect, no matter how politically correct it may be.

I agree if V's gender was unknown. But some of us have figured it out. And she is a she. :smalltongue:


Why am I mentioning this? Because this mistake has cost me a total of $220 before. I'm letting you know this as a means of preventing the same mistake from reoccurring. If you wish to debate this point, PM me, don't derail the thread any further.


Wait, on Jeopardy?

Lamech
2009-04-23, 11:16 PM
...If the pact is void, then there would be no irreversible clause. I mean...they have entire teams on Mechanus trying to find loopholes in infernal contracts, especially from the higher up devils. And you believe mind control is the solution no one has thought of? :smallconfused:
I see the point of confusion: The irreversible isn't an artifact of the contract. Its done in such a way the devils can not take back what they gave; the contract specifies the way in which the power is granted, not the devils can't take it back. And mindcontrol wouldn't be a loophole; it would just be you being subverting devilish tyrants and their system of contracts. Needlesly, because if the devil can give you such power, and you could control them one could say "Give me xyz" The only two stickers are the retribution, which will probably involve a destroyed soul on your part, and if the Harvester Devil has the power. (A "lower-down" could be the one with the free feat bag.)

This is a bad idea. It will get you killed/obliterated/tortured for all eternity. Assuming the devils can't do it directly they can have a damned servent do it for them. It just looks good on paper or if your epic enough to curb-stomp a lord of hell.

P.S. Sorry for the confusion:smallredface:

@Sinfire: V is female. Hence the use of she.

lsfreak
2009-04-23, 11:24 PM
Well, as RAW, the soul can always be given back, even after dead. The problem with mind control is that it is one of the two defense a soul actually has in gaining control back. And let's be honest, unless the devil was really certain he could win the ensuing court hearing, he wouldn't risk controlling the mind if he could gradually corrupt the soul (after all, it's more fun that way anywho).

Sebastian
2009-04-24, 03:15 AM
What I think is a good example of this kind of things could be played is the book "needful things" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needful_Things) by Stephen King. You don't buy the soul, you arrange things so that at the end the soul of your customer is so corrupted that is pratically yours, and in doing so he corrupt the souls of many other people.

Zhalath
2009-04-24, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I always though Infernal Pacts are stupid. It's like they target the desperate or stupid, or people who can't do math. It never pays off, especially when they try to kill you then to make it pay off for them.

Especially when the penalty is an eternity of suffering in Baator.

In case anyone is wondering what that means in game terms, it means you can't be resurrected. Ever. They own your soul.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-24, 06:51 PM
In case anyone is wondering what that means in game terms, it means you can't be resurrected. Ever. They own your soul.

Unless, your allies go to Baator and free your soul. After all, D&D players get powerful at high levels and can do that.

Not saying it will be easy, but it can be done.

lsfreak
2009-04-24, 07:43 PM
Yeah, I always though Infernal Pacts are stupid. It's like they target the desperate or stupid, or people who can't do math. It never pays off, especially when they try to kill you then to make it pay off for them.
Uh... that's the point. It's never going to be worth it. What you missed is that you're not supposed to realize what's going on until you've already damned your soul. If a player realizes what's happened, they're going to stop it... so make sure they never actually realize that the town blacksmith they've gotten to know over the last 2 years and have made deals with is suddenly replaced with a shapechanged devil until they've signed the deal. (EDIT: Well, try to, as fairly as you can. If they're level 5, it's kinda cheap to put a shapechanged pit fiend with mind blank in front of them).

Tukka
2009-04-24, 08:46 PM
some people don't like evil parties or soul selling. I know that if anybody in my group tried to make a faustian deal and the DM let them I'd be outta there faster than you can say just about any word in ANY language.
You make a fair point about respecting the comfort levels and play-style preferences of the players -- a DM should not simply assume that everyone is OK with a storyline that involves a real effort to corrupt the PCs ... if for no other reason that it could lead to situations where you've got mixed alignment (on the good/evil axis) groups, which can produce a lot of conflict within the group. The players that keep playing good characters may not feel comfortable having to contrive reasons for continuing to adventure with other characters who are being corrupted, in which case, what are the options? Pit the players against each other? It seems like it's either that, or force someone to re-roll. Either way you risk causing a lot of grief. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it's not for every group.

Similarly, the spiritual beliefs and sensibilities of the players involved should be respected. Just as you probably would not run a campaign with a lot of explicit eroticism without checking if it's cool with your player's first, it may be prudent to check and see if exploring some of the other darker/grittier themes is OK with everyone too. Although among the D&D crowd, it is probably safe to assume that everyone is at least somewhat comfortable with occult themes and imagery and the doings of beings like devils and demons (the onus is probably on the player to inform the rest of the group of any particular sensitivities he may have in this area).

don't give the religiouus nutjobs an actual reason to believe D&D is EVIL! (not against religion in any way shape or form. just some of the ideas it somehow produces)
Allowing PCs to agree faustian deals is not a legitimate reason to believe D&D is evil. It's not even a legitimate reason to believe the particular campaign/adventure/session that involves PC faustian deals is evil. Sure, given the world-view of some religious fundamentalists, it would count as evidence of the "corrupting influence"of D&D, but so what? It's a shame that some companies pragmatically decide to self-censor to avoid incurring the bad publicity that comes along with incurring the wrath of misguided religious groups, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let those groups influence how I play at my gaming table (I may be willing to make adjustments for another player, but not external groups).

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 08:55 PM
Uh... that's the point. It's never going to be worth it. What you missed is that you're not supposed to realize what's going on until you've already damned your soul. If a player realizes what's happened, they're going to stop it... so make sure they never actually realize that the town blacksmith they've gotten to know over the last 2 years and have made deals with is suddenly replaced with a shapechanged devil until they've signed the deal. (EDIT: Well, try to, as fairly as you can. If they're level 5, it's kinda cheap to put a shapechanged pit fiend with mind blank in front of them).

Using a mindblanked pit fiend replacing a trusted blacksmith to trick the PCs into signing a soul selling deal is just being a jerk DM no matter the level.

Just say rocks fall everyone dies and be done with it.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-24, 09:13 PM
It never pays off, especially when they try to kill you then to make it pay off for them.

I seriously do not understand this at all. Why would anyone think that they would try to kill you?

Seriously. You signed your soul over. You are not immortal. They get your soul, there is no reason to possibly violate the contract or get themselves killed over something that is going to happen no matter what anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-24, 09:28 PM
I agree if V's gender was unknown. But some of us have figured it out. And she is a she. :smalltongue:

Is this official? Has the Giant confirmed the gender? If not, then it is still speculation.



Wait, on Jeopardy?

I failed a final exam because of it. I then had to pay for that class again in order to take it.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-24, 09:35 PM
Okay, it is partially speculation.

Dr_Horrible, maybe the devils got greedy and wanted your soul that second.

Asbestos
2009-04-24, 09:42 PM
Okay, it is partially speculation.

Then we should use schle or schler ... anyone?

jvowles
2009-04-24, 10:04 PM
It's interesting to read the various comments in this thread. Some complain about the flawed game mechanics, others about the lack of logic in choosing the pact.

It's D&D. If the comic does nothing else, it points out that the game mechanics are often silly and they matter less than the story.

Now...here's how we've done it in the various groups I've played in.

One character was a drow wizard whose family had been wiped out by a cousin. That character's entire motivation was revenge -- and gaining power to gain revenge was why he adventured. And eventually, he got tempted, and said "Yes". In game terms, he got a powerful intelligent weapon that served as a familiar AND boosted him two levels. But there was an in-game cost, too: divine healing spells no longer worked on him unless his familiar cast them; he could be turned like an undead; he took a huge hit in power when his familiar was temporarily dispelled in battle. Of course he became more and more dependent on the familiar -- which was the point. And then he had to start doing things to keep his familiar happy...

What was interesting was not the power boost. It was the way he reacted to it -- and how his friends reacted to it.

Mechanics are there to serve the story and the fun.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-24, 10:39 PM
Then we should use schle or schler ... anyone?

As I said, the English default is He. Now, if V polymorphs into a boat, then you have an exception to the rule and can call him a She all you want. But until we see that happen, no.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-24, 11:02 PM
As I said, the English default is He. Now, if V polymorphs into a boat, then you have an exception to the rule and can call him a She all you want. But until we see that happen, no.What's the rule on things like s/he and hir? I use those a lot on the Misfile forums where sex is known, but confusing.

Vexxation
2009-04-24, 11:21 PM
Then we should use schle or schler ... anyone?

Praise Yeevo! In all schler glory!

That is all.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 11:33 PM
Praise Yeevo! In all schler glory!

That is all.

Yeevo?

You of all people should know a pale heretic against the Hypnotoad if you see schler.

How about that Hypnotoad?

Vexxation
2009-04-24, 11:38 PM
Yeevo?

You of all people should know a pale heretic against the Hypnotoad if you see schler.

How about that Hypnotoad?

I'm sorry, Hypnotoad, please don't make me slash my own- GAH!

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-24, 11:39 PM
How about that Hypnotoad?

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 11:57 PM
ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!

Ain't that the truth.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-25, 12:52 AM
What's the rule on things like s/he and hir? I use those a lot on the Misfile forums where sex is known, but confusing.

Those are considered non-existent phrases and spelling errors, respectively.

Zhalath
2009-04-25, 06:10 PM
I seriously do not understand this at all. Why would anyone think that they would try to kill you?

Seriously. You signed your soul over. You are not immortal. They get your soul, there is no reason to possibly violate the contract or get themselves killed over something that is going to happen no matter what anyway.

It states in FCII that devils try whatever possible to kill you and get your soul, so that they're not beholden to help you anymore.

Mewtarthio
2009-04-25, 06:22 PM
It states in FCII that devils try whatever possible to kill you and get your soul, so that they're not beholden to help you anymore.

Bah. To the Abyss with FCII! :smalltongue: Seriously, if signing away your soul means that not only are you going to spend eternity in hell but also the guy you sould out* to will promptly murder you, nobody would do it. The devils have to give mortals hope that they will come out ahead in the deal: Maybe the mortal thinks he's so clever he'll be able to wriggle his way out of the contract, for instance. Or maybe he's just desperate, but even then he'd only accept the deal if he had reason to believe he'd live long enough to enjoy his temporal rewards.

Naturally, it's all a lie: Nobody's clever enough to get out of the contract, and the deal always leaves you worse off in the temporal sense, but people should at least be able to lie to themselves.

Plus it makes the devils look like idiotic bullies rather than master manipulators. A contract should screw you over because of loopholes, not because your lawyer shot you through the head the moment you signed the papers (if nothing else, I'd expect the contract to include a "Don't worry; I won't murder you to collect on my debts" clause at the insistence of a few savvy signators).

*Sorry.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-25, 10:22 PM
Bah. To the Abyss with FCII! :smalltongue: Seriously, if signing away your soul means that not only are you going to spend eternity in hell but also the guy you sould out* to will promptly murder you, nobody would do it. The devils have to give mortals hope that they will come out ahead in the deal: Maybe the mortal thinks he's so clever he'll be able to wriggle his way out of the contract, for instance. Or maybe he's just desperate, but even then he'd only accept the deal if he had reason to believe he'd live long enough to enjoy his temporal rewards.

Naturally, it's all a lie: Nobody's clever enough to get out of the contract, and the deal always leaves you worse off in the temporal sense, but people should at least be able to lie to themselves.

Plus it makes the devils look like idiotic bullies rather than master manipulators. A contract should screw you over because of loopholes, not because your lawyer shot you through the head the moment you signed the papers (if nothing else, I'd expect the contract to include a "Don't worry; I won't murder you to collect on my debts" clause at the insistence of a few savvy signators).

*Sorry.

You know, not everyone knows this IC. It says you need a DC 15 Knowledge (Religion) check just to know what the hell a Faustian Pact is, and a DC 30 to know that devils often orchestrate the death of the person who applied for the pact to avoid losing assets.

Flickerdart
2009-04-25, 10:26 PM
If I were the Devil in question, the subject's expedient death would be a top priority. Why? Because of character tendedncy to get powerful enough to waltz into the Nine Hells, melt my face and take my stuff, along with the soul. Better nip the fellow in the bud before he makes ECL-appropriate allies.

Lamech
2009-04-25, 10:38 PM
I have a funny idea, if your about to go fight a soul stealing moster/wizard and you lack hope of victory, maybe you could get the devil to make a bad pact so you can weasel your way out in hell, and have the devils fight to get your soul. Hurrah for manipulating devils.

Dervag
2009-04-25, 11:15 PM
I've always wondered how do these pacts work with mind-control magic around? "Hello harvester devil I'm thinking about selling my soul. Charm Monster. "Anyway, I just got this new fancy spell it keeps people safe from some mind control magic for 1 day per caster level. Want me to cast it on you? Geas, Mindrape. Alright down to bargening: {Lots of leaglese some things like feats that can be granted and something that the devils can not grant. And of course, no soul if the things aren't granted. All cool stuff is irreversible.}" And then kill the harvester devil.

If I ever get offered a deal with the devil I'm breaking out the mind controls. I also suspect that several pit fiends will be sent after me, but thats okay.For a great trickster, the idea of outnegotiating a devil is very much in line with the archetype. It's a bit troubling to imagine every wizard being able to do it.
______


[derail]I'm stopping this thread right here for a second. I've got a Minor in English, so I just can't pass up correcting you.

It's He. Not She. When referencing a gender-unknown object or person in the English language, you automatically assume the masculine term, at least until the actual gender is revealed. Using She to reference a character like V (who is gender-unknown) is grammatically incorrect, no matter how politically correct it may be.

This has seriously been bugging me for years, as humanity has slowly shifted from the proper use of the English language to the butchery that is Politically Correct, all for the sake of refraining from offending a group.To heck with political correctness; the language is shifting under your feet here.

Live long enough with the idea of grammatical rules as eternal truths, and to youngsters you'll sound like this:

Lauerd me steres, noght wante sal me:
In stede of fode žare me louked he.
He fed me ouer watre ofe fode,
Mi saule he tornes in to gode....
[drawn from the 23rd Psalm in Middle English]

What can I say? Shifts in pronoun convention happen.

Yahzi
2009-04-26, 02:25 AM
Live long enough with the idea of grammatical rules as eternal truths, and to youngsters you'll sound like this:
That's what I was gonna say...

I mean, access is a verb now. What are ya gonna do?

:smallbiggrin:

MickJay
2009-04-26, 05:41 AM
The point of having language norms and rules is precisely to not sound like this to the youngsters, but to people living at least two or three or more centuries after your death :smalltongue: Without the people trying to keep the language from changing too fast, it would likely be necessary to study philology to read works written more than a hundred years ago...

Juggernaut1981
2009-04-26, 10:31 PM
RE: Infernal Pacts.

Okay, for those that have played with me, they know "I am Asmodeus". I have had more "soul purchase agreements" in convention style games than anyone... and they are usually fairly simple sorts of things. They follow the usual sorts of "dodgey deals" and "Faustian Pact" formats.

Stage 1: The Setup
(Insert Name Here) the Devil organises for BAD EVENT (TM) to befall the party, the family of party members or similar. Conveniently, BAD GUY who has an Imp (on the payroll of Insert Name Here, and previously sold his soul for colossal power) who has been advising BAD GUY just which weak people to capture and sacrifice. Imp (on the payroll) happens to 'accidentally' let slip via a messenger boy or (insert messenger here) that your family/people are in trouble with BAD GUY because of BAD EVENT (TM).

Stage 2: Cashing In
The PCs chase down BAD GUY (who is getting just enough help from Insert Name Here to stay alive and make the PCs think BAD GUY is un-kill-able). Then Insert Name Here comes to offer 'help'... "I know how you can kill BAD GUY... all you need is (insert stuff here). I'll help you but I will need a favour in return"

Insert Name Here then has the PCs kill BAD GUY (cashing in on the soul).

Stage 3: The Favour/s
Insert Name Here then has the PCs go around and indirect collect other souls by killing BAD DUDE 1 to BAD DUDE 20. (While the DM slowly lets alignments drift mentally).


Stage 4: Getting the PC Souls
Finally, comes BBED (who is also on a special Contract of your soul for some of my super-cosmic powers of awesomeness). PCs get told "look I can help, but i'll need you to sign this (insert boring looking contract with lots of fine print probably magically hidden)... then you will be able to kill BBED"

Results: Devil has maintained all contracts, collected on all previous souls from contracts and now has 6 more... ready to then slowly shift their alignment and turn them into BIG BAD EVIL PARTY (TM).


Insert Name Here then rinse-repeats with a new party who go around chasing down the PCs who are now the BBEP (TM)... and Insert Name Here has what you would call a production line of sold souls.

Never forget... Devils think in 100-year blocks. Demons think in 15-second blocks. Devils are planned, yes they do start working on collecting your soul... but they will do it by setting you up to get killed later, not next Thursday.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-27, 12:05 AM
Why are all of these bargains filled with trickery and deciet? The goal is not to fool the Paladin, the goal is to get him to sell you his soul through a legetimate contract. That requires no fooling and no trickery, just putting him in a situation where an eternity of intimate friendship with a pineapple is the better option. For example, in the current OOTS line, V was tricked into thinking he wouldn't be responsible for his Evil acts. Which is fine, you're probably going to end up with a psychotic Evil 14th-level Wizard because of it. But why bother with probably?
We'll give you the power to save your family and kill the dragon. We had a couple inevitables draw up this contract, and it guarantees that you will get power far in excess of what's necessary to accomplish your goals, whatever they are, for the next 14 hours. Put that 22 Int to work, the entire thing is legit, that's why we had a neutral party draw it up. In exchange, you give up your soul to us, and you will be turned Evil 12 hours from now. After all, it's not like he can choose not to sign, and this way you have him with both Ultimate Arcane Power and an Evil alignment for 2 hours, no failure chance. That's a far better result, and it was done without a single bluff check.

Khanderas
2009-04-27, 02:54 AM
No devil worth his tail would say "sign here and ill give you some temporary power in exchange for ETERNAL TORTURE MWAHAHAA"

It would start small. If someone is in desperate need of infernal assistance, then the terms would be a small "favor" to be decided later. That favor could end up being stabbing the wise and just ruler of a kingdom in the heart with a 'no ressurrection for you' dagger, at the knighting ceremony for slaying the rampaging dragon. You are now wanted by everyone, on the run, done a hidious deed that may damn you anyway when you die (and it looks like it will happen soon)... then the Devil apologises for what happened (blames some boss of his) but is perfectly willing to help fix the situation... but there must be something given for this service....


And for those who think (justly or not) they are going to be damned anyway, why not skip the larva / lemure stages and go straight to personal servant of a minor lord of the hells ? Debauchery for eternity. Engage in all the vices you want... instead of several thousand years of torture. Heck you dont have to do much, sign here and we will help you do what you love to do already (kill stuff and take their loot).
There are even a few escapeclauses here, and we may be able to renegotiate further down the line. well not really, as it would require that both parties are willing to renegotiate, and if he already has your soul... why should he ?


Stack charisma on the devil, and while they cant make diplomacy checks on PC's, a GM can well describe the guy as "seeming sincere", "a nice guy" and with the offer in front of the PC mention that "it seems fair". Those are what a sucessful devil would show up as.
Not the fire and smell of brimstone in the air, coupled with the cries of the eternally tortured souls the background.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-27, 07:06 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1180295

They used Infernal pacts to gain a 10th level spell slot: I'll repost important part.


Open Fiendish Codex. Turn to page 23 and start reading about Faustian pacts. Stop when you're done with the assorted rewards chart. Let's just get one thing out of the way first: a rank 3 Corruption act is... "inflicting grievous harm to a creature." Good, you got that done with once you started bloody adventuring.

I want you to look at two words on that assorted rewards chart. The ones, in parentheses, next to "Additional spell slot." Those two words are: "Any level."

And that's it. No qualifications, no caps. Any. Freaking. Level.


Now you might lose the slot if you lose the pact so take Extra Slot feat in Complete Arcane.
"Once selected, the extra spell slot never changes level."

Finally a use for Extra Slot that isn't suboptimal.

Tyrmatt
2009-04-28, 09:52 AM
My favourite fable of Pacts is that of Jack. This is how they should work, not in terms of mechanics, but drawbacks. The devil will ALWAYS win out somehow.

Jack was a lazy man and never achieved much in life. He was content to steal from his neighbours and cared for no-one but himself. Until one day, it came for his time to die. Fearing death, Jack called on the Devil to grant him seven more years of life, in exchange for his soul. Jack vowed to change his ways with this second chance and live a good life.

Except, true to his nature, Jack broke this promise. He continued to be a sorry excuse for a human being. Until one day, seven years later, the devil appeared to claim his prize. However, the one thing Jack had done with his life was come up with a plan. He put this to the devil: If he could convince the priest of the local church to accept the devil, disguised as coins, the devil would have a far more prized soul, a humble servant of God, condemned forever to damnation. The devil considered the offer and decided it was a good trade, since he was most likely to get Jack's soul anyway. The devil transformed himself into 2 copper coins and leapt into Jack's purse.

However, Jack had hidden a small silver cross inside the purse and it's power trapped the devil in the purse. Jack agreed to let him out for a new bargain: The devil would never allow Jack's soul to pass through the Gates of Hell if Jack let him free. Furious, the Devil had no choice but to agree in order to get his freedom. With a flash, the deal was struck and Jack was a free man.

Jack returned to town to celebrate his freedom and lived another seven selfish years before passing on. However, as he stood at the gates of Heaven, St. Peter turned him away, saying that making deals with the Devil is a sin, worthy of eternal damnation. So Jack went to the gates of Hell and met with the Devil, who with a glint in his eyes, refused to allow Jack into Hell as per the contract. Jack pleaded that his soul be allowed to enter even Hell, for to walk the Earth as naught but a shade seemed a fate worse than death. The Devil laughed and offered Jack a burning lump of coal to light his now eternal walking of the Earth.

So Jack hollowed out a turnip and placed the coal within. Now he walks the Earth forever more, with naught but his lantern to light the way. So, when you see a lone lantern wandering endlessly through the night, think of Jack and how his selfish acts cost him so dearly...

The more mythological amongst you will remember this as the legend behind Halloween's Jack O' Lanterns. My advice for all pacts is to treat them as the DM's guide treats Wish. Grant the PC's whatever power they wish with clever wording. If they ask for great power, offer them the greatest evil power imagineable. When they try to use it to accomplish good acts, it just vanishes. If they ask for immortality, grant it to them. As they lie buried alive in a coffin. Stretch every definition as far as humanly possible and then throw them an out. Which actually winds up having an even worse outcome.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-28, 11:02 AM
Jack should have become a Vestige: Vestiges are denied heaven/hell usually (for one reason or another).

The Glyphstone
2009-04-28, 11:49 AM
...To the Homebrew Forum!