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Zaq
2009-04-23, 05:53 PM
Crazy wizards are a fantasy staple, no less in D&D than in anywhere else, and indeed have some lasting impact on the D&D world as a whole. One word: Owlbear. Hardly the only example where the rulebooks out and out say "a wizard did it," but the easiest one to think of, and one of the more humorous.

Now, let's say you want to be that wizard. Sure, you won't be forging new species anytime soon (Origin of Species is an epic spell, after all), but you want to go about playing the wizard who creates things others find completely, totally inexplicable. (To be honest, the explanation is pretty mundane: you got really, really bored one day.) Maybe you won't be spreading ecologically significant populations of strange new creatures throughout the planes just yet, but you'll get there someday. For now... hey, what if we tried THIS?

So, two questions.

1) How would you go about doing this?
2) What's the earliest level you can envision this archetype working (that is to say, this tactic being the one that defines most of your abilities)? Why?

I mean, there are already a couple spells that fall into this vein, but I'm not sure they're enough on their own. Permanent duration spells are ideal, but those are few and far between, and often very high level. I understand that the mad genius responsible for the first owlbears probably wasn't some singe-digit apprentice, but that's not the point. As far as I'm concerned, the earlier you can get any given concept working, the better.

Polymorph Any Object is a good start, but I want more. What would you folks do to represent a low level Wizard Who Will Do It? Not a specific level, since this isn't a character I'm making for real, just kind of a thought experiment. How would you represent this?

One other note... custom spell research would be a glorious thing here, and if I were to actually play a character like this, I'd probably rely heavily on it, or at least try to. If you want to talk about custom spell research, go ahead, but give some examples of what your custom spells would do, and more importantly, what level they would be and why. Wizards are broken enough without making a second-level spell that can permanently give him (and his fighter buddy, and his rogue buddy, and everyone else in the party) a spiffy new pair of wings, for example, but if you make the spell too high of a level, we might as well just use PaO, and that's no fun. (Well, it's fun, but it's totally not the point.) So keep that in mind.

JellyPooga
2009-04-23, 06:09 PM
Arguably even a 1st level Wizard is capable of this. As you say, researching your own wacky spells and churning out scrolls is the first step. By doing so you can get a reputation across the world as the guy who invented Xargles Magnificent Beer Cooler (a very popular spell for tavern goers). As you rise in level and get more Item Creation Feats, it goes beyond merely spells and you enter the realm of crazy magic items (Now you no longer need knowledge of the arcane! Get your very own Xargles Enchanted Beer Mug and never drink warm beer again!). Origin of Species is merely the top end of this, by which point you've already made staves, wands, scrolls, beer mugs, rings, intelligent swords, cursed armour and all manner of other unique doodahs and wotsits. Eventually someone is going to say about one of your things "who in Baator thought this pile of junk up?" to which the reply is, of course "A wizard did it!".

chiasaur11
2009-04-23, 06:16 PM
Arguably even a 1st level Wizard is capable of this. As you say, researching your own wacky spells and churning out scrolls is the first step. By doing so you can get a reputation across the world as the guy who invented Xargles Magnificent Beer Cooler (a very popular spell for tavern goers). As you rise in level and get more Item Creation Feats, it goes beyond merely spells and you enter the realm of crazy magic items (Now you no longer need knowledge of the arcane! Get your very own Xargles Enchanted Beer Mug and never drink warm beer again!). Origin of Species is merely the top end of this, by which point you've already made staves, wands, scrolls, beer mugs, rings, intelligent swords, cursed armour and all manner of other unique doodahs and wotsits. Eventually someone is going to say about one of your things "who in Baator thought this pile of junk up?" to which the reply is, of course "A wizard did it!".

If the response isn't "#*&*#&ing Wizards." your stuff isn't weird enough.

MCerberus
2009-04-23, 06:24 PM
Well I'd say the minimum level would be level 3, when you can get CWI. Flerg's Burning Underwear is a simple 1/day 1st level spell magic items. When you put them on, you burn your nether region with burning hands.

Dixieboy
2009-04-23, 06:31 PM
Level 1 wizards can do it in another way than item crafting.

Pretisti... that THING i can't pronounce, let alone spell.

You recolor stuff, if somehow you could get close enough to stuff without being epically pwned you could create an entire tribe of pink kobolds, a village of purple Elves or the deadly forest of pink trees and Tartan critters.

granted actually doing this would take a helluva long time, but who said the wizard "Did it" in one day?

I think i just rewrote a popular saying. Jolly good job there.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-23, 06:39 PM
An interesting 3rd level spell is Glowing Orb. Its an orb that sheds light at will, and it lasts forever. Now, an item that casts at will dancing lights is 1,000 gp. Enchant the orb with this, and, for bonus points, make it intellegent and give it lots of ranks in Knowledge (astronomy).

Now you have a sun with 4 planets orbiting around it! If you want to scare intruders off, you can have it switch to glowing humanoid form dancing lights and send it after them. Because nothing says scary like an incorporeal creature holding a glowing ball that looks like its about to shoot you :smallwink:

chiasaur11
2009-04-23, 06:44 PM
Level 1 wizards can do it in another way than item crafting.

Pretisti... that THING i can't pronounce, let alone spell.

You recolor stuff, if somehow you could get close enough to stuff without being epically pwned you could create an entire tribe of pink kobolds, a village of purple Elves or the deadly forest of pink trees and Tartan critters.

granted actually doing this would take a helluva long time, but who said the wizard "Did it" in one day?

I think i just rewrote a popular saying. Jolly good job there.

Prestidigitation is a good start. Parlor tricks, odd little trinkets, good beginning bit. Might even give you some ideas for later on.

Faleldir
2009-04-23, 07:01 PM
Prestidigitation can't be used with Permanency.

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 07:04 PM
A continuous effect Prestidigitation item. Since the temporary effects last until the duration ends, and the item has an unlimited duration... So that's where drow came from.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-23, 07:30 PM
Well, 3.5 is quite silent on what happens if a creature under the effect of Polymorph mates. So a 7th level Wizard could find, say, a female goat in heat, Polymorph a snail into a male goat, and have them go at it. Would the female's child be a normal goat, or a cross between a snail and a goat (and would that be a snoat or a gail?).

Harperfan7
2009-04-23, 07:48 PM
I would say that if a ploymorph effect is permanent, they are (goats) and have (goat) DNA. As for wizards creating crazy stuff, the only reason I don't have rules for it is because PC wizards are too busy dealing with the crazy crap other wizards come up with to do any of his own. They might make their own spells, build a base of their own, or make items, but not anything that requires extensive trial and error or experimentation.

In my campaign, a-mage-did-it, a-dragon-did-it, or a-god-did-it are very common explanations for pretty much everything. All the better, I say, because that just makes the world more intereting.

Claudius Maximus
2009-04-23, 07:51 PM
Well, 3.5 is quite silent on what happens if a creature under the effect of Polymorph mates. So a 7th level Wizard could find, say, a female goat in heat, Polymorph a snail into a male goat, and have them go at it. Would the female's child be a normal goat, or a cross between a snail and a goat (and would that be a snoat or a gail?).

I'm pretty sure a polymorphed creature breeds as its true form. This is certainly better than the alternative when it comes to, say, Half-Dragons.

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 07:52 PM
Half-dragons are more than sufficient support of that hypothesis. Although, personally, I'd prefer to polymorph a fleshraker into a male orc so I can use suggestion on it to ensure mating with the female orcs I got off the black market.

Edit: Scratch that, the females can be of any humanoid race. The male, however, is to be an aboleth volunteer. Perfect genetic memory.

chiasaur11
2009-04-23, 07:56 PM
Well, 3.5 is quite silent on what happens if a creature under the effect of Polymorph mates. So a 7th level Wizard could find, say, a female goat in heat, Polymorph a snail into a male goat, and have them go at it. Would the female's child be a normal goat, or a cross between a snail and a goat (and would that be a snoat or a gail?).

Going for a more crude form of a wizard-did-it, eh?

Jack_Simth
2009-04-23, 08:03 PM
Going for a more crude form of a wizard-did-it, eh?Well, one that's a bit more explicable, anyway. This method doesn't require new spells, just the DM filling in a few blank spots for where the rules are silent.

holywhippet
2009-04-23, 08:33 PM
Statwise, I'd go for a high INT and a low WIS. Basically your character loves to tinker and do stuff - like make a three headed dog for extra bite. However, he doesn't use common sense or think long term or consider the potential ramifications of his actions.

I'd make the character constantly curious. Examining everything and anything - especially things people wouldn't normally give a second glance to.

Crel
2009-04-23, 08:38 PM
Oh... My... God...

I say this because in the campaign I am currently running, one of the PCs is a focused specialist transmuter. If he sees this thread... I'll probably have to kill him off before he makes the owlbear or duckbunny look sane.

However, I may use this myself for an insane wizard the party faces. Its pretty interesting, and some ideas on this list are friggin' hilarious. Nice work. Now for my contribution...

Worms with the spell-like ability for fireball at will at 20th caster level? How long would the world last? Or, would it just be a world already ruled by worms? So many questions!

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 08:40 PM
Oh... My... God...

I say this because in the campaign I am currently running, one of the PCs is a focused specialist transmuter. If he sees this thread... I'll probably have to kill him off before he makes the owlbear or duckbunny look sane.

However, I may use this myself for an insane wizard the party faces. Its pretty interesting, and some ideas on this list are friggin' hilarious. Nice work. Now for my contribution...

Worms with the spell-like ability for fireball at will at 20th caster level? How long would the world last? Or, would it just be a world already ruled by worms? So many questions!Yuan-ti. Nuff said.

InaVegt
2009-04-23, 08:41 PM
I'd create a floor that would turn to complete inferno once every few hours to clean it.

Fireproof furniture and rings of fire resistance to accompany it of course, I got the magic, after all.

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-23, 08:57 PM
I'd go totally Island of Doctor Moreau with slightly modified (and greatly extended) versions of Bite of the Were-X (where X = Bear, Wolf, Hyena, Cheetah, Panda, Tiger, Budgie, and all sorts of other animals), which would permanently transform anyone bitten into the hybrid form of a were-creature.

Then the next campaign would be chock-full of anthropomorphic animals.

Zaq
2009-04-23, 10:20 PM
I guess I should have been clearer in my original post. While these are some excellent suggestions for crazynuts wizard tricks, they're not what I was actually asking.

Owlbears, we are told, resulted from wizard experimentation. Owlbears are not the only example of creatures that simply have no business existing, but do, because, well, a wizard did it. What if you want to play a wizard who goes around creating these insane new creatures? You start out modifying old ones ("Check out what I did to your bunny!"), adding permanent changes, eventually figuring out how to make these changes breed true (Lamarckian evolution gogogo!). You move up to the mix-and-match stuff that gave us owlbears to begin with. Eventually you're creating stuff that only existed in your own mind, rather than taking one creature and making it more like another one, or even (at epic levels, with the Origin of Species spell) creating them out of nothing. How do you go about doing this? What pre-existing spells do you use (BESIDES Polymorph any Object, I mean! That's way too high level!), what spells do you research, what levels do you make the spells that you research, what character level would you think you could be to make this actually work, all of these questions! How do we go about tinkering with biology in truly unhealthy ways?

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 10:32 PM
Just plain Polymorph is only a 4th level spell, and a Gnome can speak with animals 1/day. Get a male... Let's say rat. Take some time to talk to it, persuade it to be your willing target. Then, use repeated castings of charm person to kidnap a female goblin. Then, when they're together, use hold person on one and polymorph the other. With a few days patience, some repeated castings, and a single copper piece, you've just created a Skaven at 7th level. 8th, if you go Sorceror.

The Sorceror option may be better, if you take the Domain Access varient from p52 of Complete Champion. Calm Animal, Charm Animal, Dominate Animal... This is how Owlbears are made. Just make sure that the owl is the male so that you have the properly protective Mama Bear to raise your abomination against nature.

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-23, 10:45 PM
Unleash bite of the were-X into various animal populations, make the changes permanent, and inheritable?

Chronos
2009-04-23, 10:53 PM
Not directly apropos, but I feel I should mention that the description of the Duckbunny explicitly states that it's a practice monster, for crazy crossbreeding wizards who don't want to start off with something dangerous like an owlbear.

chiasaur11
2009-04-23, 11:03 PM
Not directly apropos, but I feel I should mention that the description of the Duckbunny explicitly states that it's a practice monster, for crazy crossbreeding wizards who don't want to start off with something dangerous like an owlbear.

Which is great.

I mean, it means that there isn't just one insane monster mixing wizard.

There are enough to have predefined practice monsters.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-23, 11:04 PM
Unleash bite of the were-X into various animal populations, make the changes permanent, and inheritable?

What would that do besides improve their stats? The Bite spells don't actually involve lycantrophy in any way, they just give the caster sweet bonus stat modifiers, some natural weapons, and a bonus feat(s) that vary based on the spell...

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-23, 11:13 PM
Check my post prior to that one.

TSED
2009-04-23, 11:14 PM
Let's look at spells that could potentially be used for this from the PHB by level.

I am going to make the assumption that when something gives birth under a magical effect, its children are at least slightly altered on account of them being:
1) Based off their parent.
2) It being a permanent, instantaneous effect.

Let's assume that magic changes DNA temporarily, or something. I don't know. But it's integral to some of the ideas down below.

That being said, let's have at her!:

0) Prestidigation is the ultimate answer for the first level mage.
Ghost Sound could be useful in certain places (trying to get certain things to mate) though.

1) Mount. Try mating a thing with a magical construct of pure ... magic. Yeah. It could work, assuming the Mount is the male. The female would give birth to magical beasts, no?
Bonus points for using a spell that SOUNDS sexual.

Hypnotism / Sleep: creepy.

Disguise Self miiiight. If you could research some sort of "Ensure Offspring Viability" spell. That's really friggin' creepy, though. As the old joke goes, though... centaurs.

Enlarge / Reduce Person / Animal / etc. could be used on a pregnant organism giving birth / laying eggs. Wonder what would happen?

Summon Monster I through IX could be useful, too.

2nd) Resist Energy is probably important if you're going to try some of the more... dangerous... magical-combinations. Ash rats, any one?

Summon Swarm... I'm not entirely sure how but something that produces a swarm of vermin's got to be handy if you're trying to create abominations.

Touch of Idiocy: You might have to do this to yourself a time or two. Just make sure you can still write down your ideas.

Darkness: In conjunction with the Disguise Self theory above, this would be pretty much mandatory. Ewww.

Or Blindness / Deafness.

Command Undead: Oh gods no.

Ghoul Touch: Why is this so wrong all of a sudden?

Alter Self: Disguise Self above getting better.

Animal's Statistic: Useful for a variety of reasons. I mean, children are based off their parent, right? Cast this on the parent right before they create new life, and suddenly you've got supernaturally strong / dextrous / whatever babies.

Spider Climb: This spell is useful for a variety of reasons. Firstly, you've got access to new places that you couldn't reach before. Secondly, sometimes your ridiculous wrong experiments will need help. Picture, say, a 10 foot tall wolf and a poodle.

3rd) Phantom Steed: See Mount in 1st.

Tongues: Obvious if you're trying to make two species of the same type create hybrids.

Deep Slumber / Hold Person: No.

Suggestion: I am beginning to hate myself.

Gentle Repose: :smalleek:

Gaseous Form: Uh... Wonder what'd happen to things birthed by a mother in gaseous form?

Water Breathing: Important if you want aquatic or amphibious terrors.

4th) Dimensional Anchor will be handy at times.

Stoneskin: ??!

Minor Creation: Creates wood or cloth. Which, to me, is dead but organic matter. Be creative, use that Touch of Idiocy, and see if you can figure something out.

Locate Creature: Handy!

Charm Monster: Handy!

Geas, Lesser: Handy, but creepy.

Hallucinatory Terrain: How else to get a romantic evening or whatever?

Shadow Conjuration: Partially unreal hybrids? ... I am intrigued.

Animate Dead: Ok, if you're making partially undead partially alive creatures, this will be handy. Still, no wonder adventuring parties keep hacking up your creations.

Polymorph: The king of hybrid-making. As was discussed above, viable offspring that are combinations of the two are created by polymorphed mating, as seen by the precedent of half-dragons.

5th) Major Creation: I see inorganic materials. I don't know how it will be useful, but it could, and... let's discuss some stuff afterwords.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound: Well, now you've got ANOTHER magical creature to mix with things.

Contact Other Plane: Most obnoxious 'wanna go on a date?' ever.

Animal Growth: The aforementioned Enlarge Person deal at level 1.

Permanency: I don't know. Be creative. SOMETHING will probably need this sooner or later.

6th) Contingency might be useful for having something go off. You're not sure when the cow is going to give birth? "Contingency: if cow is about to give birth, cast Bull's Strength on it." Or whatever.

Create Undead: ewww.

Stone To Flesh: Useful if joined with "Craft (Sculpture)" or something, I imagine.

7th) Shadow Conjuration, Greater: Less unreal but still partially unreal real things... Yay!

Control Undead: still so very wrong.

Limited Wish: Yeah, you know already.

8th) Otto's Irresistible Dance: If only it could do mating dances, too. You don't know that it can't. Some animals won't know any other 'dance.' Voila?

Antipathy / Sympathy: Useful for getting specimens you want.

Clone: You already know. (P.S. What would happen if something cloned itself, put on a belt of opposite gender, and then...)

Create Greater Undead: Still so very wrong.

Iron Body: Useful if you're trying to make metallic monsters.

Polymorph Any Object: The holy grail.

9th:
Shapechange: Useful if you decide you want your son to be a half dragon / half troll. Or something. I don't know.

Time Stop: Useful if you need to get more done NOW than is possible.

Wish: Useful if you say 'screw it, I wish I had an owlbear.'





Ok, so let's look at some ways to do it:


Possible Path 1: Polymorph two creatures. Have them mate. Keep the mothers, have their young be the new generation of horrors.

Possible Path 2: Use minor / major creation to make a corpse of something, based on the idea that it can create dead organic material. Use Animate Dead on the terrifying barely-counts-as-one fake-corpse. Use a researched 'Always Viable Offspring' spell and mate it with something else (that poor, poor something-else). Major creation can add in neat things like metal or stone body parts as NATURAL. Maybe this is REALLY where Warforged came from? Fabricate will speed this along.

Possible Path 3: Use one of the many spells to create an animal of pure magic. Have it mate with a female thing. The offspring should be magical beasts.

Possible Path 4: Be a druid or a transmuter, and apply transmutations to things about to give birth. The magic becomes an integral part of the child if my theory holds water (why wouldn't it? A wizard did it, after all)... Thank Gods magic is weird.

Undead Creatures Path: The aforementioned "Always Viable Offspring" thingummy plus undead will create some very... interesting... crossbreeds. Superfluous with, say, vampires, but I've got no idea how a lich is supposed to impregnate something. Is the offspring's phylactery going to be like, the after birth or something?



So, what would this "Always Viable Offspring" spell be like? I'm thinking 10 minutes / caster level duration and a 2nd level spell, or some such. And a corollary, of course (never-viable-offspring). What happens when they interact, and one is imbued with the spell and one is not?

TSED
2009-04-23, 11:15 PM
Additionally, I feel the urge to come up with a reasoning for an owlbear:

Bears are omnivorous.
Owls are not.


Mix the two, and you get the bear's crazy brute strength and size, the owl's nasty beak, and the fact that it only eats meat gives it presence as an intimidating guardian / whatever.

TrashCat
2009-04-23, 11:16 PM
Am I the only one who read the title of this thread and started giggling uncontrollably?

Apparently, I have the sensibilities of a 12-year-old boy. This is unsettling news.

:: introspects ::

chiasaur11
2009-04-23, 11:33 PM
Am I the only one who read the title of this thread and started giggling uncontrollably?

Apparently, I have the sensibilities of a 12-year-old boy. This is unsettling news.

:: introspects ::

You are not alone.

Read the rest of the thread and vomit in terror.

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 11:35 PM
Let's go nuts: Polymorphed Effigies. All the benefits of undead hybrids, but no issues with adventurers.

Let's go really nuts: Make your character a human female.

No, TrashCat, I saw it too. Hence my second suggestion.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-23, 11:38 PM
Is it bad that I reference the BoEF more than RotD?

Irrational Attraction takes care of making the 2 things(whatever they are) copulate.
Blessed/Fiendish Seed guarantees you'll produce a child, but it requires you be one of the parents(or your familiar), costs 500 XP, and adds the Half Celestial/Fiendish template.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee pregnancy. Unfortunate.

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 11:40 PM
Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee pregnancy. Unfortunate.One word: Rigor. Wizardry is the science of magic, after all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-23, 11:49 PM
One word: Rigor. Wizardry is the science of magic, after all.Yes, but the spell I listed guarantees that you'll produce a child, no matter what, with the next thing you copulate with. Which means you can get a Half-Zombie Half-Celestial Gnoll(if you're a Gnoll). Share it with your familiar for a Half-Celestial Half-Owl Gelatinous Cube or something. If you could find a way to guarantee the baby's alignment as opposite the seed spell, you would eliminate one of the half-templates(since half-Celestial can't be added to something Evil). Alternatively, if you're talking long-term, breeding a half-Celestial Half-Crocodile Elemental with a Half-Fiendish Half-Elemental Crocodile might eliminate the 2 outsider templates. Or it might combine them in new and creepy ways. At that point, yeah, experimentation is the only solution.

Ganurath
2009-04-23, 11:56 PM
Ah, but if you're doing self-experimentation, isn't rigor more... fulfilling?

Zincorium
2009-04-24, 12:07 AM
Ah, but if you're doing self-experimentation, isn't rigor more... fulfilling?

Self experimentation won't produce offspring.

Hermaphrodites possibly excluded?

D_Lord
2009-04-24, 12:44 AM
Now I have the desire to make the crazyest monsters in my next Campin. Just have to wait a few more months for the players to forget about the Nightmare Campen.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-24, 12:51 AM
You are not alone.

Read the rest of the thread and vomit in terror.

Actually, this is fascinating. Like the cat-girl genocide inducing anti osmium bomb, it sparks my inner mad scientist/wizard.

Ganurath
2009-04-24, 01:07 AM
If you prefer psionics, look at what a cerebramancer can do:

1. Get some Hellwasp Eggs.
2. Negociate with an Aboleth.
3. Polymorph the Aboleth into whatever you need to fertilize the eggs.
4. Spawn a hivemind swarm with mutagenic tentacles and perfect genetic memory.
5. Unleash said swarm, as agreed, on the mind flayers.
6. Collect mind flayer infant samples. Proceed to step 11 to see why.
7. Place samples in suspended animation with the Imprisonment spell.
8. Build a human female effigy for each sample.
9. Use polymorph any object to turn each sample into a mindless obedient living human.
10. Contract outsiders, preferably from the Far Realms, to impregnate the samples.
11. Cast Freedom on the infants, using trial and error to create Elans with the women.
12. Use Modify Memory on the newly created Elans to maintain obedience, and make them aware of the pregnancies.
13. Study the results.

Oh, and don't forget step 0: Be a lich. It always helps.

altruist
2009-04-24, 01:20 AM
Ganurath: Do you mean vigor (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vigor)rather than rigour (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rigour)? Am I missing something?

Ganurath
2009-04-24, 01:42 AM
Ganurath: Do you mean vigor (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vigor)rather than rigour (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rigour)? Am I missing something?I mean basic rigor (http://xkcd.com/397/). For those seeking to create hybrid abominations through "natural" conception, don't assume you got it right the first time.

TSED
2009-04-24, 01:53 AM
I mean basic rigor (http://xkcd.com/397/). For those seeking to create hybrid abominations through "natural" conception, don't assume you got it right the first time.

Good Gods, the methods I outlined earlier could produce an infinite variety of abominations with the exact same two individuals.

This is terrible.

This is horrible.

This is the doom of all mankind, because the next thing you know we'll have sapient flying blink-landsquid! We'll have snailgoats which are just goats with shells protecting them from butchering, and laying eggs so they produce no milk! We'll have cows that EXPLODE when heated! Wheat that eats meat (including farmers)! Fruit with DR 30/-!

We'll succumb to a combination of infinitely dangerous magical diseases, inedible livestock (unbutcherable is definitely a genetic plus), unharvestable plants, and predators from which there is no escape.

DOOOOOM!

Brock Samson
2009-04-24, 03:22 AM
*tear* I really love you guys...

imp_fireball
2009-04-24, 03:40 AM
With some decent craft checks (including architectural knowledge or maybe science and technology, which is allowed in some campaigns), you could create an elevator at 3rd level with a levitate spell and a whole hell of a lot of gold (start design with guide railings and a compartment to contain twelve or so mid-sized creatures)- as well as decent mechanical knowledge to create a control panel that allows direction to which floors can be reached. Non conventional games could also cover this (where the object isn't so much adventure as it is customizing one's lair using gold from your inheritance, hiring an army and proceeding to conquor the world, ie.).

At any rate, the wizard who did it is likely a chaotic neutral sap who has lived long enough to merely be bored with all forms of magic concerning necessity (or a neutral sap whom has lived even longer).

Tamburlaine
2009-04-24, 04:04 AM
I personally would like to see if I could breed gelatinous cubes into different shapes. Start off small, maybe with a gelatinous tetrahedron, work your way up to much more complex stuff. Gelatinous cat maybe? Gelatinous bear? Gelatinous giant flying landsquid (cthulhu on a budget)? How about a gelatinous hypercube?

Lord Herman
2009-04-24, 04:50 AM
Gelatinous bear?

Hmm... I wonder if it's possible to breed gelatinous cubes in different flavours...

VirOath
2009-04-24, 05:06 AM
I personally would like to see if I could breed gelatinous cubes into different shapes. Start off small, maybe with a gelatinous tetrahedron, work your way up to much more complex stuff. Gelatinous cat maybe? Gelatinous bear? Gelatinous giant flying landsquid (cthulhu on a budget)? How about a gelatinous hypercube?

Savage Species Book. It's a template.

Dogmantra
2009-04-24, 05:08 AM
Hmm... I wonder if it's possible to breed gelatinous cubes in different flavours...
Give them class levels and use the flavours to distinguish them: "The strawberry one over there casts magic missile, and the Blueberry one tries to power attack you."

Androgeus
2009-04-24, 06:06 AM
who needs magic, a wooden cow was all Pasiphaë need to make a half-breed. (the Minotaur for those who are not Greek myth nerds)

hewhosaysfish
2009-04-24, 06:45 AM
Is it bad that I reference the BoEF more than RotD?

Irrational Attraction takes care of making the 2 things(whatever they are) copulate.
Blessed/Fiendish Seed guarantees you'll produce a child, but it requires you be one of the parents(or your familiar), costs 500 XP, and adds the Half Celestial/Fiendish template.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee pregnancy. Unfortunate.

If you make a potion of a self-only spell, then the drinker is target as though they were the caster. So if you're squeamish about... er... getting you hands dirty... then you could make potions of Blessed/Fiendish Seed which you feed to one of the particpants.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-24, 07:00 AM
If you make a potion of a self-only spell, then the drinker is target as though they were the caster. So if you're squeamish about... er... getting you hands dirty... then you could make potions of Blessed/Fiendish Seed which you feed to one of the particpants.
There's a catch with that, though:


The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Sorry.

Fizban
2009-04-24, 07:24 AM
For those interested in slapping together monsters, Mongoose Publishing has a whole book about in in their Encyclopedia Arcane series. Goes into great detail, with different prices and difficulties based on what methods you use to stick the component creatures together, from boiling them down into primordial glop to pinning their shadows together to tying their magical aura strings together. I'm sure the system is quite breakable, but you still have to wrangle the creatures together, so it works on the "you beat it, you own it" principle.

While there are penalties, it's quite possible to stick giant sized working pigeon wings on a blue whale, thereby creating the perfect living airship mount for your campaign world. In the other direction, a low level caster with the equipment could start churning out duckbunnies for practice quite soon.

Even with just templates you can have a lot of fun. Winged, monstrous beast, insectile, and reptilian in savage species. Acidborn and dungeonbred in dungeonscape. Elemental in Manual of the planes. You can give pretty much anything any move speed, let it live in a harsh environment, shrink it if it's too big (or use titanic to make it bigger), and make it breath something for just a few +CRs.

I also read a feat in Mongoose's Ultimate Feats that lets you make monsters without bothering with checks and details, just 1,000gp*HD squared and some time and space to experiment (within a few limits of course). Gets spendy fast, but if you can't pull it off any other way, just stat it up with a CR and make sure to protect your investment.

Zain
2009-04-24, 10:17 AM
So what would happen if you mated a ogre mage and a frog? think about it, frog mage powers ativate!:smallbiggrin:

Ganurath
2009-04-24, 12:00 PM
So what would happen if you mated a ogre mage and a frog? think about it, frog mage powers ativate!:smallbiggrin:Kuo-toa is what would happen.

Chronos
2009-04-24, 10:31 PM
Quoth Tamburlaine:
How about a gelatinous hypercube?I statted up a Gelatinous Tesseract (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3145800&postcount=39) a while back.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 10:49 PM
Quoth Tamburlaine:I statted up a Gelatinous Tesseract (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3145800&postcount=39) a while back.

Sounds positively Lovecraftian. Fun times.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-24, 11:04 PM
Sounds positively Lovecraftian. Fun times.
Yeah... the gelatenous Tesseract is a CR 5 critter that can just sit on the astral plane and and hit you until you're dead. Oh yeah, and it has a good chance of paralyzing you when it does so. Assuming it follows that strategy (which, you know, pretty much should be in range of an Int-3 creature, considering some of the things Wolves do, and they're Int-2) then it's run-or-die for things that *should* be able to beat it with 20-30% of daily resources spent (a group of four 5th level PC's), unless they have one of a very small number of very specific feats.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 11:14 PM
Yeah... the gelatenous Tesseract is a CR 5 critter that can just sit on the astral plane and and hit you until you're dead. Oh yeah, and it has a good chance of paralyzing you when it does so. Assuming it follows that strategy (which, you know, pretty much should be in range of an Int-3 creature, considering some of the things Wolves do, and they're Int-2) then it's run-or-die for things that *should* be able to beat it with 20-30% of daily resources spent (a group of four 5th level PC's), unless they have one of a very small number of very specific feats.

So, Azathoth:

Not a god, just a very bored wizard's bored weekend project gone bad.

Doresain
2009-04-24, 11:22 PM
ya know, after going through this thread, i think im going to have nightmares tonight...thanks guys:smallannoyed:

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 11:32 PM
ya know, after going through this thread, i think im going to have nightmares tonight...thanks guys:smallannoyed:

We're here to help.

If there are any especially weird things man was not meant to know, could you take notes?

I could use some inspiration.

Zeful
2009-04-25, 12:26 AM
What would happen if you breed a red-dragon with a half red-dragon? Would it be a three-quarters red dragon, or a Half red dragon, half red dragon, [insert base creature here]. After all, the half-dragon template can be applied to dragons.

Ganurath
2009-04-25, 12:55 AM
What would happen if you breed a red-dragon with a half red-dragon? Would it be a three-quarters red dragon, or a Half red dragon, half red dragon, [insert base creature here]. After all, the half-dragon template can be applied to dragons.Your DM would start taking some sort of medication for chronic migraines.

Rising Phoenix
2009-04-25, 02:12 AM
What would happen if you breed a red-dragon with a half red-dragon? Would it be a three-quarters red dragon, or a Half red dragon, half red dragon, [insert base creature here]. After all, the half-dragon template can be applied to dragons.

...Hey then one can make a Pink Dragon by crossing a White Dragon with a Red one...What would its breath weapon be? Steam? Or will it have both?...:smalltongue:

Zaq
2009-04-25, 07:10 AM
What would happen if you breed a red-dragon with a half red-dragon? Would it be a three-quarters red dragon, or a Half red dragon, half red dragon, [insert base creature here]. After all, the half-dragon template can be applied to dragons.

Probably the same thing that happens if you try to take the flaw Murky-Eyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#murkyEyed) and use the resulting bonus feat to take Blind-Fight. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight)

One very possible explanation is "Make a reflex save vs. thrown DMG."

Haarkla
2009-04-25, 12:40 PM
I guess I should have been clearer in my original post. While these are some excellent suggestions for crazynuts wizard tricks, they're not what I was actually asking.

Owlbears, we are told, resulted from wizard experimentation. Owlbears are not the only example of creatures that simply have no business existing, but do, because, well, a wizard did it. What if you want to play a wizard who goes around creating these insane new creatures? You start out modifying old ones ("Check out what I did to your bunny!"), adding permanent changes, eventually figuring out how to make these changes breed true (Lamarckian evolution gogogo!). You move up to the mix-and-match stuff that gave us owlbears to begin with. Eventually you're creating stuff that only existed in your own mind, rather than taking one creature and making it more like another one, or even (at epic levels, with the Origin of Species spell) creating them out of nothing. How do you go about doing this? What pre-existing spells do you use (BESIDES Polymorph any Object, I mean! That's way too high level!), what spells do you research, what levels do you make the spells that you research, what character level would you think you could be to make this actually work, all of these questions! How do we go about tinkering with biology in truly unhealthy ways?

Yuan-ti Pureblood Wizard 1/Ranger 1/Soul Eater 6

Feat: Graft Yuan-ti Flesh [Item Creation] Yuan-ti only – You can apply yuan-ti grafts to other living creatures or to yourself

Natural weapon (from yuan-ti grafts or deformity (clawed hands))

Tiny Viper familiar

ECL: 14 CR: 11



Manipulate Form
At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.


A 6th level Soul Eater can shapechange (as the spell) into any creature it energy drains to death. This involves actually meeting and killing a Sarruhk. Basically, you use your energy drain attack to kill the Sarruhk and then you can Shapechange into the Sarruhk for 24 hours with your Soul Radiance ability.

The Yuan-ti shapechanges into a Sarruhk and uses Manipulate Form to bestow that very same ability (Manipulate Form) to its viper familiar.

The Yuan-ti dismisses its Sarruhk form, and orders the familiar to grant it the Manipulate Form ability, using Manipulate Form of course.

So now, at will, the Yuan-ti can modify the form of almost any Scaled One, including any creature with a Yuan-ti graft, and the alterations are automatically passed on to the creature's offspring.



Sourcebooks:
Serpent Kingdoms (Sarruhk/Manipulate Form/Graft Yuan-ti Flesh)
Book of Vile Darkness (Soul Eater)

Flickerdart
2009-04-25, 01:02 PM
I wonder if any DM would allow "the horizontal tango" as a choice for Otto's Irresistible Dance. Maybe it's the one that the mage originally intended, too.

Zincorium
2009-04-25, 01:03 PM
@Haarkla:

Google "pun pun" (without quotes).

They've got it down to a first level paladin now.


And no, considering the potential abuse, this is not the best way, as you've got deities who know a week in advance you're going to try and blast you into your constituent elements so you don't pose a threat.

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-25, 02:11 PM
So, I have a gestalt game I'm in, and "The Wizard Who Did It" seems like a great character to play. I'm thinking Wizard/Artificer will give me the greatest potential but...

What exactly should I do, and, of course, how best to do it?

chiasaur11
2009-04-25, 02:27 PM
@Haarkla:

Google "pun pun" (without quotes).

They've got it down to a first level paladin now.


And no, considering the potential abuse, this is not the best way, as you've got deities who know a week in advance you're going to try and blast you into your constituent elements so you don't pose a threat.

The original one even deals with that. (Leaves deific spheres of influence long enough to be ignored, doesn't cause trouble.)

It's the biggest reason to ban Sarruhks, if not the only one.

Chronos
2009-04-25, 02:48 PM
Quoth Jack_Simth:
Yeah... the gelatenous Tesseract is a CR 5 critter that can just sit on the astral plane and and hit you until you're dead.Yeah, when you put it that way, I probably did under-CR it. Or maybe I should make it not able to attack transdimensionally without shifting its entire body to the plane it's attacking (thus opening it up to counterattack). I didn't really put all that much effort into it, intending it more as a joke than as something someone might actually use.

Haarkla
2009-04-25, 03:57 PM
@Haarkla:

Google "pun pun" (without quotes).


Where do you think I heard about sarrukhs from?

My Yuan-ti isn't Pun-Pun, but a perfectly playable character who happens to use some of the same rules.



So, I have a gestalt game I'm in, and "The Wizard Who Did It" seems like a great character to play. I'm thinking Wizard/Artificer will give me the greatest potential but...

What exactly should I do, and, of course, how best to do it?

You could use Fizban's suggestion of Mongoose Publishings Encyclopedia Arcane series book in post #53; or my own Yuan-ti soul-eater build.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-25, 04:13 PM
My Yuan-ti isn't Pun-Pun, but a perfectly playable character who happens to use some of the same rules.

It's a build that uses a completely subseviant scaled one to grant itself Manipute form and from there smash epic level PCs into the dust effortlessly. How is this not a slower way of getting to Pun-Pun? Just because it isn't using a Kobold as a base?

For a challenge bear in mind that diplomatic missions can still be effective challenges when everyone has Mindblank and no-one has Epic SpellBrokenness available, combat tends towards multi-page immunity shuffling and infomation retrieval is effortless so go for roleplay centred challenges and you might last a little longer.

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-25, 07:02 PM
For those interested in slapping together monsters, Mongoose Publishing has a whole book about in in their Encyclopedia Arcane series. Goes into great detail, with different prices and difficulties based on what methods you use to stick the component creatures together, from boiling them down into primordial glop to pinning their shadows together to tying their magical aura strings together. I'm sure the system is quite breakable, but you still have to wrangle the creatures together, so it works on the "you beat it, you own it" principle.

I also read a feat in Mongoose's Ultimate Feats that lets you make monsters without bothering with checks and details, just 1,000gp*HD squared and some time and space to experiment (within a few limits of course). Gets spendy fast, but if you can't pull it off any other way, just stat it up with a CR and make sure to protect your investment.

There seem to be quite a few Encyclopedia Arcanes. Do I want "Magic Item Creation" or "Contructs: IT IS ALIVE!" or maybe "Blood Magic" is the relevant book? Not trying to sound snippy, just having difficulty spotting the correct title.

EDIT: Ah. Eyclopedia Arcane: Crossbreeding.
EDIT2: And it's on it's way! Work fast, delivery service!

chiasaur11
2009-04-25, 07:05 PM
It's a build that uses a completely subseviant scaled one to grant itself Manipute form and from there smash epic level PCs into the dust effortlessly. How is this not a slower way of getting to Pun-Pun? Just because it isn't using a Kobold as a base?


It seems to be slower and worse. That is different.

(The worse is from not being a Kobold.)

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-25, 07:21 PM
It seems to be slower and worse. That is different.

(The worse is from not being a Kobold.)

I believe it's not Pun Pun because the idea is to create freakish monstrosites, rather than become an all-powerful doomsday being.

krossbow
2009-04-25, 07:23 PM
What if you breed a troll with a red dragon, and then breed its offspring with a black dragon?

Get a few of these, obtained from different draconic and trollish sires so as to avoid inbreeding issues, magically age up your creations, and have the Black/red dragon/troll offspring mate with one another to produce a race of troll's with immunity to acid and fire (or at the very least heavy resistance), and produce the perfect shock troopers.

You now can breed yourself an army of perfect grunts.

Collin152
2009-04-25, 08:47 PM
What if you breed a troll with a red dragon, and then breed its offspring with a black dragon?

Get a few of these, obtained from different draconic and trollish sires so as to avoid inbreeding issues, magically age up your creations, and have the Black/red dragon/troll offspring mate with one another to produce a race of troll's with immunity to acid and fire (or at the very least heavy resistance), and produce the perfect shock troopers.

You now can breed yourself an army of perfect grunts.

Yes, but being an army of genetically engineered super-soldiers, they won't be able to hit worth a damn. A differant form of Stormtrooper Syndrome.

chiasaur11
2009-04-25, 10:20 PM
Yes, but being an army of genetically engineered super-soldiers, they won't be able to hit worth a damn. A differant form of Stormtrooper Syndrome.

Then make one.

It'll guarantee an attack, but your one soldier will do more work than the whole potential army.

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-26, 05:36 AM
Then make one.

It'll guarantee an attack, but your one soldier will do more work than the whole potential army.

I suggest making like seven Super Mutant Behemoths, each with a small army of lesser Supersoldiers with it.

Collin152
2009-04-26, 03:55 PM
Just had a great idea:
Hippopotamoose.

chiasaur11
2009-04-26, 03:59 PM
Just had a great idea:
Hippopotamoose.

Man. Now that is a killing machine.

Make it so.

Emong
2009-04-26, 04:09 PM
There is actually a third-party 3e book in the Encyclopedia Arcane series called "Crossbreeding - Flesh And Blood" that deals with this exact subject.

It has a system for determining the stats/type/abilities of the crossbreed and a description of the ritual the caster has to go through to fuse the creatures together.

For bonus points it even uses the owlbear as an example for using the system. :smallsmile:

shadow_archmagi
2009-04-26, 05:22 PM
There is actually a third-party 3e book in the Encyclopedia Arcane series called "Crossbreeding - Flesh And Blood" that deals with this exact subject.

It has a system for determining the stats/type/abilities of the crossbreed and a description of the ritual the caster has to go through to fuse the creatures together.

For bonus points it even uses the owlbear as an example for using the system. :smallsmile:

Have been reading through it now. Hippo-moose is definately a go. I was also thinking clam-hydra (for mass pearl farming).

Sydonai
2010-04-04, 10:21 PM
Going for a more crude form of a wizard-did-it, eh?

In the first book of the Elminster trilogy tthere was an Archmage who wanted to create armor-plated gryphons by forcing tsaid gryphons to mate in a pool of giant crab........matrerial. What I'm trying to say, is that the idea has a precedent, and the type is "Magical Animal" for a reason.

Sydonai
2010-04-04, 10:57 PM
.......I have no idea how to respond to that.

krossbow
2010-04-04, 11:01 PM
Step one: Alchohol.

Step Two: Get animals Drunk.

Step Three: ???

Step four: Profit!

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-04, 11:02 PM
.......I have no idea how to respond to that.

Thread necromancy is when you post in a really old thread.

And I think that the Vizzerdrix will always be the best 'a wizard did it' creature. Nothing compares to it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-04, 11:31 PM
who needs magic, a wooden cow was all Pasiphaë need to make a half-breed. (the Minotaur for those who are not Greek myth nerds)Uh...The bovine in question HAD wood. Biiiig difference.

Harperfan7
2010-04-05, 12:17 AM
In the first book of the Elminster trilogy tthere was an Archmage who wanted to create armor-plated gryphons by forcing tsaid gryphons to mate in a pool of giant crab........matrerial. What I'm trying to say, is that the idea has a precedent, and the type is "Magical Animal" for a reason.

I love you. Nobody I know likes that book except me, definitely not enough to remember a small detail like this.

Deca
2010-04-05, 01:41 AM
Red Mage heartily approves of this thread! (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/03/18/episode-674-a-natural-progression/)

Kurald Galain
2010-04-05, 02:50 AM
1) How would you go about doing this?
2) What's the earliest level you can envision this archetype working (that is to say, this tactic being the one that defines most of your abilities)? Why?

(1) start with Duckbunnies. Why? Well, the much-derided duckbunny exists, by its flavor text, precisely because would-be Mad Wizards tend to start their experiments with something completely harmless, just in case it goes wrong.

(2) I'd say level 7 or so. I'm not basing this on any exact written wizard spells per se and I'm sure it's technically possible earlier, but creating weird animal hybrids sounds like something that requires more practice than can be done by a mere level-1 beginner, but is not nearly as earth-shaking as what e.g. 6th or 7th level spells can accomplish.