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tcrudisi
2009-04-23, 07:58 PM
I'm about to start running a game this Sunday. The players have all informed me what they are going to play: Rogue, TWF Ranger, Druid, Wizard, and Cunning Bard. My question is simple: how will the players fare without a defender? Has anyone tried to play without a defender before? What kind of success did you have?

holywhippet
2009-04-23, 08:14 PM
It depends on how the players handle themselves in combat. No given role is essential.

AgentPaper
2009-04-23, 08:57 PM
It works, but don't be surprised if you find most players choose feats and such to make themselves tougher and harder to hit. That rogue for example should very much be of the artful dodger type, TWF ranger would benefit much from Two-Weapon Defense and armor proficiency chain (unless his dex is really good), wizard should pick up a staff, and the other two, I'm not sure about because I don't have PHB II yet.

Edit: But I DO have the character builder, duh. Some options for each class, if your players don't know this stuff already:

Ranger: Two-Weapon Defense, Armor Proficiency: Chain, Armor Specialization: Chain
Rogue: Artful Dodger (duh), Defensive Mobility (unless halfling), parrying dagger and/or Two-Weapon Defense (not sure if those stack)
Wizard: Staff mastery, Armor Proficiency: Leather
Bard: Armor proficiency: Scale, Armor Specialization: Chainmail, Heavy Shield proficiency
Druid: Primal Guardian, Armor Proficiency: Chain (if not guardian), Armor Specialization: Hide (if guardian)

Toughness and Durable all around, though that might be overkill. The bard might want to get Restful Healing to make sure he's getting the most of his healing powers. Dwarves and Dragonborn are good tough races, and for sure a dwarf ranger is something to be feared, dual wielding hammers and all. (Dwarven Weapon training and Hammer Rythm are great feats)

Saph
2009-04-23, 08:59 PM
Defender's probably the second most important role. You can live without it, but it does make things more difficult.

The biggest thing will be that Solo and Elite monsters will become much more dangerous. Normally Solos can be taken out relatively easily because the defender pins them and allows everyone else to keep blasting. Without a Defender the Solo is free to move around the battlefield munching on the squishies.

- Saph

AgentPaper
2009-04-23, 09:17 PM
Defender's probably the second most important role. You can live without it, but it does make things more difficult.

The biggest thing will be that Solo and Elite monsters will become much more dangerous. Normally Solos can be taken out relatively easily because the defender pins them and allows everyone else to keep blasting. Without a Defender the Solo is free to move around the battlefield munching on the squishies.

- Saph

Very true. Just make sure that you, as DM, take their lack of a defender into account when you're balancing an encounter. Minions and brutes and soldiers will be easier to handle, while elites and solos will be much harder. Don't go bending backwards to help them, but keep it in mind.

Hal
2009-04-23, 10:03 PM
Very true. Just make sure that you, as DM, take their lack of a defender into account when you're balancing an encounter. Minions and brutes and soldiers will be easier to handle, while elites and solos will be much harder. Don't go bending backwards to help them, but keep it in mind.

Seconded. In the absence of a defender, your melee strikers are going to be taking it on the chin, and that means your Bard's resources will be stretched to the max each encounter.

Your players will be better off if they try to adapt more hit-and-run tactics, duck away from combat when possible, stay at range when they can . . . but it doesn't sound like that's going to happen with a rogue and a TWF ranger representing your strikers.

If nothing else, be prepared for your players to lose a lot of attachment to their characters, as they'll be likely to go through a few of them before the lot of you hit your stride.

Awesomologist
2009-04-23, 10:36 PM
Of the 4 roles in 4e, Defender and Leader are the most important. Can you play without them and have fun? Sure, but it won't be easy. Luckily you can get around some of it with multi-classing, feat, and power selection.

As a DM when you build your encounters, keep an eye out for solo and elite encounters as mentioned already. Also be careful with how you set up maps. A defender allows the players to establish a "front line". Without one they're going to require lots of mobility. Be sure to use fun terrain but don't let that be the sole factor as to why these players may fail. It will be interesting to see how the Druid, Wizard, and Cunning Bard fare. Don't pick on the ranger too much since nothing is stopping you from whacking the wizard around.

Asbestos
2009-04-24, 12:17 AM
Bard: Armor proficiency: Scale, Armor Specialization: Chainmail, Heavy Shield proficiency
Druid: Primal Guardian, Armor Proficiency: Chain (if not guardian), Armor Specialization: Hide (if guardian)

I'm confused here.

The Cunning Bard has Int as a secondary stat and therefor should be able to be pretty OK in light armor. In the same vein I think you have your guardian/predator druids switched. The predator druid has Dex as a secondary stat and should be the one with Hide armor and the guardian druid is the one with the high Con score.

Colmarr
2009-04-24, 12:26 AM
To quote from Dragon's excellent article on party composition:


Filling the defender’s role is tricky since few other classes can lock down their enemies. Instead of marking opponents, other characters must threaten foes by dealing considerable damage, or by putting themselves in harm’s way to protect the party. The barbarian deals enough damage and has plenty of hit points to keep an enemy’s attention, while the battle cleric and bravura warlord can make strong melee attacks and use enabling powers. A scourge warlock has the hit points to soak a few extra attacks, while a two-blade ranger can deliver punishing attacks almost equal to those used by the barbarian.

Other characters should invest in feats and powers that provide escape routes, such as free shifts, teleportation, or pushing enemies away. Furthermore, consider high hit point classes or classes with close blast and burst powers to drive off enemies who come too close.

Pretty good advice in my opinion.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-24, 01:04 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. There really isn't an obvious cutoff point where a character stops being a striker or controller and starts being a defender, and the distinction between the three is largely arbitrary anyway. As long as you've got a decent healer, you shouldn't have any problems.

tcrudisi
2009-04-24, 01:08 AM
I agree with all the posts I've seen so far, and that is what concerns me. I'm not making up the encounters; I am using the Thunderspire Labyrinth module designed for a party of 4th-6th level. I've ran it once before, so I know basically what the party can expect from it.

I just also know how valuable a good defender truly is. However, I have never really seen a good Controller shine. I've seen two played (both Wizards), but they were unfortunately played by people who are not the best of players. This group has 2 controllers (Druid and Wizard), so I think if they act early in the combat, they might be able to soften up the baddies enough for everyone to survive. I do agree though; hit and run tactics might be the way to go.

Thanks for the input so far guys. I'm more than willing to take a look at the encounters and scale them down a bit if necessary, but it is the first few encounters that worry me. While they are all experienced at D&D, this is their first foray into 4e. The leap from 3.x to 4e was quite a different one, but I actually feel they might do better in 4e's requirement of team above self.

Any other suggestions? I am very happy to have had such a response so far and I appreciate every single suggestion that I have received.

TheOOB
2009-04-24, 01:15 AM
With less defenders, you may want to cut down on the soldiers and brutes, the tough melee guys are who the defender is supposed to deal with mostly. A party without a defender will handle more offensive enemies better, enemies that die quickly and don't need to be herded as much.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-24, 01:16 AM
I just also know how valuable a good defender truly is.
True enough, but that's a different cup of tea. I've played several games with a bad defender (either a build that was incapable of defending well, e.g. assault swordmage or straladin, or simply a poor player) and that plays essentially the same as having no defender but yet another striker.


However, I have never really seen a good Controller shine.
Same thing. A well-played controller is awesome; a poorly-played controller is essentially just another striker.

Strikers and leaders tend to be easier to play than defenders and controllers. Of course it's also a matter of playstyle, but e.g. an archer ranger is very easy to use, and a wizard much less so.

Drakefall
2009-04-24, 02:40 AM
Without a Defender the Solo is free to move around the battlefield munching on the squishies.

Oho, now that actually sounds like fun. Squishies Vs The Black Dragon! Dun, dun, duuuuun! Bonus points if it's in a nice big dark cave:smallbiggrin:. I'd actually love my party to do something so utterly stupid and challenging, though we currently have two defenders so that'll have to wait until I try out my dming skills later in the year... *snicker snicker* And they think strikers are all that *snicker snicker*

But moving on to the topic at hand. It's been said before so I'll just add emphasis. The party has a leader. This is really the only role I would consider essential. I'm sure they'll still get to have plenty of fun, just perhaps hint to them that hitting hard and hit and run tactics may be a good idea. Yes, the worst case scenario is a TPK but a far more likely one is that they get their butts whomped by a plotless random encounter (oh woe is me for I know this shame), one or two of them die, they realise the value of the defender, one is rolled up and everyone's happy as the adventure continues.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-04-24, 03:37 AM
It's always a funny thing when the bard is the most important character in the party.

AgentPaper
2009-04-24, 10:11 AM
I'm confused here.

The Cunning Bard has Int as a secondary stat and therefor should be able to be pretty OK in light armor. In the same vein I think you have your guardian/predator druids switched. The predator druid has Dex as a secondary stat and should be the one with Hide armor and the guardian druid is the one with the high Con score.

Oops, that's true on the bard. Still, even with a good Int, heavier armor can still be more AC, at least in early levels, and it might be worth it for the bard to try and squeeze out every ounce of +1 he can, seeing as how he's the healer and so a likely target. On druids, that's because guardian druids get to throw their Con score into AC, so light armor works for them just as well. Didn't realize that predator druids have secondary Dex, so oops there too. :smallredface:

Thajocoth
2009-04-24, 11:57 AM
It's doable but difficult. If they have too much trouble, give them a defender ally.

AgentPaper
2009-04-24, 12:23 PM
It's doable but difficult. If they have too much trouble, give them a defender ally.

On that note, I would suggest a paladin, since it has a simpler marking mechanic. Don't force him into the party if the plot doesn't work with him, or the party doesn't, but it might be good to give them the option of hireing him. (Something like having him as a disenfranchised paladin, who's less sure of his god's ideals than he used to, would work well. Depending on how the story went and how the players acted, he could re-gain his faith or loose faith in his god altogether)

RebelRogue
2009-04-24, 11:23 PM
Things are easier with a Defender, but I've seen groups get by without it. My advice would be not to throw in a DMPC or tune down the challenges: let the group change their tactics accordingly instead.

cupkeyk
2009-04-25, 01:04 AM
The bard can get misdirected mark. The nice thing about it is that the bard can choose to have the farthest possible ally mark the enemy. if the DM plays the stupid monsters realistically, this means they will try to wade through the rest of you to attack the marking ally. The smart monsters will have to contend with a penalty to attack rolls. This also lets you manage the aggro to be directed towards the healthier allies.