PDA

View Full Version : Moral Problem (3.5)



BWM
2009-04-24, 07:54 AM
I have a moral dilemma with my character that has been breaking my head for a couple of weeks already. I want your opinions on what to do/how to act.

The story thusfar:
I have created my character before our party got to know the entire story. The DM is a scribing-type and I suspect our campaign either is a book or he will write it later on. However, that doesn't matter. I have created my character as an ambitious young man, a divine champion of the gods whose biggest purpose is to join their ranks one day.
I talked the DM into giving me Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) and used terrible ability scores (8; 11; 11; 12; 14; 16) to compensate for this. He is chaotic good, although I play him as good-ish in general (switching between lawful and chaotic depending on my own mood). That all doesn't matter. The main point is that my character is trying to become a god and is also good.

The story kind of destroyed my dreams however. Eons ago there were monsters on the world and some wizard created a barrier to lock them out of the world. This process kind of set back the world a couple of centuries and destroyed most of the magic in the world in the process. This barrier was weakened by the presence of the gods and thus they left.
[this story is sort of summarized, possibly incorrect, but the idea is still there]

The party has now found the guy who created the barrier and the barrier is weakening, because an evil god showed up in the world. We are now send on a mission to stop that god.
Before we found the guy, my character died, talked to his own god and was send back to the world to save it and stuff.

The above story looks a bit random, but my point is the following:
* My character's main purpose is to become a god one day.
* My character is good.
* The presence of the gods endangers the world.
* My own god (hybrid between Heironeous and Kord) send me back to the world

How should I act on these facts?
* My own god send me back to the world, knowing that my presence will endanger it and possibly destroy the world. In that case, how trustworthy is my own god? Maybe I should, as a cleric, stop believing in him, because he deliberately send me back into the world, knowing that I endanger it.
* A wizard-guy told me the complete story and the party just kind of believed him. However, his words are directly against the words of my own god. Should I believe the wizard-guy or should I possibly sabotage our own mission because the wizard-guy gave it to us (and his story was against the story of my god and thus false).
* What should I do if I for some reason assume that the story is correct and I actually endanger the existence of the world?

SoD
2009-04-24, 08:12 AM
Stuff.

Well, if your character would stop beleiving in his god (I assume you mean stop worshiping) for being sent back to save a world, even though the world is endangerd by your presence, I would say you wouldn't've become a cleric in the first place, if your faith is shaken so easily.

You could easily think something about how your God works in mysterious ways, or that he knows better, or that he beleives that the implications of what would happen if you don't save it it worse than you destroying it, and that it's worth the risk, or that you're the worlds only hope.

Your god chooses you as his champion, and you're tempted to stop worshiping him? Good lord, what faith you have.

Kol Korran
2009-04-24, 08:35 AM
a few ideas:
1) first of all, goals and prospectives can change over time. so you wanted to bea god, and you found out that it would endanger the world? ok, so after some thought, you being good can come up with one of the following decisions (may be more, jsut the ones i'm thinking about):
- you choose to eliminate the reason because of which gods are dangerous. you take it upon yourself to eliminate the monsters threat! (this may be an achievable or unachievable goal) you postpone your "becominga god" until it is safe to do so.
- you decide that becoming a god is just too damn risky for the world, and that you can't do it. you decide to dedicate your life to the morals and idealsand missions your god has gave you instead, carrying always a regret that your true goals can't be met. this is a sacrifice you make.
- you decide you'll become a god, and then distance yourself from the world. you understand that the power of a god might enable you to solve much of the evil and un-goodliness that exist in the world, even from afar.

2) why the hell do you want to become a god? what's the purpose of it? if you can answer this you can find an alternative way to achieve your goal. "become a god" for it's own sake doesn't sound all too "good" to me (but i may be wrong).

3) as to the crisis of faith... i join SoD in the opinion that you should trust your god- maybe it knows (or hopes) you can't become a god, maybe it knows (or hopes) you'll change your mind, maybe it knows/hopes that you becoming a god might change things, and so on. sure, a momentery crisis of faith is fine, and adds to the game, but if you do like your general concept, you can alwyas find a reason why you should continue believing.
remember: faith is believing without a proof. (and please don't flame me for this people!)

4)the wizard guy's story vs your god's story: you could sabotage your own mission orrrrr- you could consider this as a challange, where you need to persuade the other party members of the truth of your words. but don't force them, work with them, and show them the inconsistencies of the wizard's tale as you go along, until you can convince them.
the idea here is: don't do things in secret, do it in the open, and "trust in your god" that the truth shall be revealed.

5)
What should I do if I for some reason assume that the story is correct and I actually endanger the existence of the world?
you're supposed to be good, right? to put others need above yourself (most times), right? so... do what's right, don't endanger the world (and the easiest way to do so is to give up on godhood- oh the sacrifice.)

hope this helped,
Kol.

Roderick_BR
2009-04-24, 09:07 AM
Your character's presence weakens the barrier? Shouldn't it happens only with actual gods and/or very powerful divine casters?
Maybe you could argue to your DM that only when you cast spells the barrier is affected. This way you can cast spells only when REALLY dangerous. And maybe, as you level up, you are allowed to use lower level spells without endanger the barrier?
Would be an interesting concept, actually, not be able to use your full powers most of the time, although harder.

Douglas
2009-04-24, 09:19 AM
From your description, it seems like only actual gods weaken the barrier by their presence. Until you actually achieve your goal of godhood, your presence is no danger. Once you do, you can just take yourself off to wherever the other gods are. So, I'm not seeing where the problem is.

JeminiZero
2009-04-24, 09:34 AM
* My own god send me back to the world, knowing that my presence will endanger it and possibly destroy the world. In that case, how trustworthy is my own god? Maybe I should, as a cleric, stop believing in him, because he deliberately send me back into the world, knowing that I endanger it.


Remembering that there is another evil god at the root of the problem, then NOT sending you back would definitely doom the world (assuming your god believes that noone else can effectively fight the evil god). Whereas sending you back might doom the world, but there is also the chance that you might find a way to save it. Put another way, he could justify sending you back as the lesser of 2 evils.



* A wizard-guy told me the complete story and the party just kind of believed him. However, his words are directly against the words of my own god. Should I believe the wizard-guy or should I possibly sabotage our own mission because the wizard-guy gave it to us (and his story was against the story of my god and thus false).


What your character could decide to do, is to put off this question to another time. Right now there is an evil god to destroy, and it is more than likely that as you wage war against him, you will find out more about the nature of the world, the barrier, the monsters and the gods. After the evil god is done with, your character should be in a much better position to answer this question.



* What should I do if I for some reason assume that the story is correct and I actually endanger the existence of the world?


At the end of Terminator 2, after the enemy T-1000 cyborg was destroyed, GovernTerminator realized that his continued existence put the world at unnecassary risk. And so he voluntarily immersed himself into lava, thereby not merely destroying himself, but ensuring his remains could not be retrieved and reverse engineered. YMMV.

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-24, 09:43 AM
I think maybe your god doesn't think you'll be able to gain divinity. Or maybe you should have told the DM your character concept before the game so he could say "Actually, that may not work out how you want due to complications in the story. Do you wish to proceed?"

Also, great T2 reference, JeminiZero! :smallcool:

Asgardian
2009-04-24, 10:38 AM
I dont see a problem

Its the presence of the evil god thats causing the current problems with the barrier. If your god is a hybrid of Heironeous and Kord (2 gods related to war), its probably your divine duty to destroy the Evil God and stop the current weakening of the barrier.

If you actually achieve your godhood and wind up effecting the barrier, then you leave the plane as the other gods did

Baidas Kebante
2009-04-24, 10:45 AM
Well, the source of the moral issue lies mostly in why your character wants to become a god. Does he believe that by being a god he can help people in the best way? Does he feel that only a god is allowed to do certain things and these things are important for the betterment of all beings?

Knowing why the person wants to become a god will allow you to decide if your character can stick with this plan or find another alternative. As I recall, DnD allows you to gain ranks in divinity without actually becoming a god, and as such I think you can attain a certain level of divinity and still not worry about affecting the barrier so long as that level will still allow you to achieve your real goal.

As a good person, wanting to become a god shouldn't be your real goal. It can be the way your character believes is best to achieve that real goal, but wanting to be a god just for the sake of being a god tends to run a little on the side of non-good at the very least.

chiasaur11
2009-04-24, 11:21 AM
Remembering that there is another evil god at the root of the problem, then NOT sending you back would definitely doom the world (assuming your god believes that noone else can effectively fight the evil god). Whereas sending you back might doom the world, but there is also the chance that you might find a way to save it. Put another way, he could justify sending you back as the lesser of 2 evils.



What your character could decide to do, is to put off this question to another time. Right now there is an evil god to destroy, and it is more than likely that as you wage war against him, you will find out more about the nature of the world, the barrier, the monsters and the gods. After the evil god is done with, your character should be in a much better position to answer this question.



At the end of Terminator 2, after the enemy T-1000 cyborg was destroyed, GovernTerminator realized that his continued existence put the world at unnecassary risk. And so he voluntarily immersed himself into lava, thereby not merely destroying himself, but ensuring his remains could not be retrieved and reverse engineered. YMMV.

Of course, if one leaves T3 in canon, that makes the sacrifice stupid and wasteful, and possibly the eventual cause of the death of Conner.

So, factor that in.

imp_fireball
2009-04-24, 12:54 PM
For the record, I'd just like to say that rapidly switching between lawful and chaotic eventually grinds down to a neutral good.

It's kind of like when you walk and run in spurts during travel, it eventually grinds down to a hustle (right from the SRD itself).

Alignment has to have slow change. It represents the underlying relative moral beliefs of your character in accordance to the rest of the plot. It plays a decent role in major decisions (is this the right thing to do?).

On that note, go ahead and follow what your god said. Create some intrigue.

[quote[If you actually achieve your godhood and wind up effecting the barrier, then you leave the plane as the other gods did[/quote]

Don't gods reside on other planes regardless? Just get in touch via planar commune or whatever.

Jarawara
2009-04-24, 02:34 PM
From your description, it seems like only actual gods weaken the barrier by their presence. Until you actually achieve your goal of godhood, your presence is no danger. Once you do, you can just take yourself off to wherever the other gods are. So, I'm not seeing where the problem is.

This.

Or, even better, the presence of outworldly gods threaten the barrier, but not the presence of a god that is wholly of this world. As in... you. Your god knows this, that you are fated to be the one true god who can remain with the people here, and so he sent you back to become the one and only supreme diety of this world. Congrats on your truly epic destiny!! :smallcool:

*~*~*

Or... that's just what you can believe in order to feel better about the situation, though that does call into question the relative 'goodness' of your deity, as he clearly has no problem letting loose a total megalomanic upon the world. :smalltongue: (just joking :smallsmile:)

Zhalath
2009-04-24, 03:51 PM
Now, gods are not created equal. Not all gods are the same. Just because "gods" in the past weakened the monster barrier, doesn't mean you will. The DM tends to not give everything away at once, so these gods could be anything from chaos gods, to dark gods, to demon princes.

Plus, if you're a cleric, you should have near-absolute faith in your god. He's both good-aligned and near-omniscient. Gods tend to have Int and Wis in the 30s, at least. Trust your deity, because he knows what he's doing. Plus, if you don't, you can kiss your spells good-bye.

Another thing I realize now is that your character wants to be a "god". But the definition of a god can be many things. You could achieve godhood by being worshiped. You could become incredibly powerful, and call yourself a god. There are so many things you could do, to become a "god", that you could pick any one of them, and you could be QZ. You just gotta think about specific goals.

I would go along with the wizard, for now, but take it with a grain of salt. Don't believe anything he can't prove.

If you do become a god, and you are an endangerment to the world, then you may have to self-sacrifice. In doing so, you would achieve the ultimate good act, giving one's life to save the world, and become legendary in the minds of the people and your deity forever.
At that point, you could ask your DM for reincarnation, as a mortal, or something, if you wanted to keep playing. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Plus, if an evil god is threatening the world now, he should be highest priority. Always work with what will happen, rather than what can. Act on the now, not the what-if.

Sergeantbrother
2009-04-24, 04:36 PM
It seems to me that if anybody's alignment is in question, it should be the alignment of your character since he seems to be obsessed with his own personal power and advancement even if it threatens the rest of the world. If your character is really good and genuinely believes that achieving godhood could threaten reality then he should stop pursuing that goal. Also, the essence of playing a cleric should be devotion to your deity - I would say that what ever he says you should trust - even if he commands you to do something that would seemingly cause harm. I don't necessarily see that the wizard and your god are saying things that are contradictory, but to the extent that they are contradictory then you certainly should trust your god. But the only thing that seems to be the problem here is your character's quest for divinity, it seems rather egotistical of your character to want to point the finger at the wizard or even his own god instead of examining the selfishness of his own goals.