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View Full Version : How to Hurt Epic level PC's



kentma57
2009-04-24, 08:40 PM
I am facing a bit of a challenge, I am DMing a group of 21st level Gestalt players(3 plus their cohorts and what-not) and they are well built. I mean really well built, they scare me. Though I scare them so it all works out.

Anyways, the main villain is a Dry litch Cleric/Sorcerer/Sandshaper(23 class levels, he's gestalt to). He's the leader of a massive undead horde, with everything from lowly skeletons to mighty dracoliches.

Part of the problem is that they knew all this in advance(at least the part about all the undead) and consequently I have to deal with people who can can dominate 180 some HD of undead every turn(control undead, I now hate that spell). Then there is the simple matter that they are all experienced players and are way to prepared.

Basicly I am trying to think of some new tricks.

Any suggestions?

olentu
2009-04-24, 08:44 PM
Well off the top of my head the villain could research an epic spell that would block control undead for everyone else in the area.

Flickerdart
2009-04-24, 08:48 PM
Duke it out in the Positive Energy Plane.

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-24, 08:50 PM
Fight right next to the Spire in the Outlands - no magic!

arguskos
2009-04-24, 09:04 PM
Retributive Undead Control. Basically, have him cast some epic spell that says "whenever I lose control of my undead, they self-destruct, dealing massive amounts of untyped damage in feedback to the person who took control of them". That's how I'd deal with that issue.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-24, 09:13 PM
Retributive Undead Control. Basically, have him cast some epic spell that says "whenever I lose control of my undead, they self-destruct, dealing massive amounts of untyped damage in feedback to the person who took control of them". That's how I'd deal with that issue.

Actually, that could be done with Craft Contingent Spell, non-epic, even.

A slightly better idea: The only actual undead is the dry lich himself. The rest? Bodies animated with Animate Objects + Permanency (or with a way around the XP cost, but they have their own CR, and the Lich is an NPC, so you can actually ignore that...), bound Outsiders under the effect of a Veil spell, and so on. They prepare for undead, and for some odd reason, the undead-controlling spells seem to have no effect whatsoever....

imperialspectre
2009-04-24, 09:37 PM
A slightly better idea: The only actual undead is the dry lich himself. The rest? Bodies animated with Animate Objects + Permanency (or with a way around the XP cost, but they have their own CR, and the Lich is an NPC, so you can actually ignore that...), bound Outsiders under the effect of a Veil spell, and so on. They prepare for undead, and for some odd reason, the undead-controlling spells seem to have no effect whatsoever....

This, but start by hitting them with undead a few times, to cement it in their minds that they really are in an undead-heavy campaign. Also, grab a magic aura spell to make the Animate Objects/Permanency combo radiate necromancy instead of transmutation, and anytime you can substitute a mundane Disguise check for an illusion, do so--PCs at the level you're dealing with will have true seeing up most or all of the time.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-24, 09:45 PM
Actually, that could be done with Craft Contingent Spell, non-epic, even.

A slightly better idea: The only actual undead is the dry lich himself. The rest? Bodies animated with Animate Objects + Permanency (or with a way around the XP cost, but they have their own CR, and the Lich is an NPC, so you can actually ignore that...), bound Outsiders under the effect of a Veil spell, and so on. They prepare for undead, and for some odd reason, the undead-controlling spells seem to have no effect whatsoever....

Bone Golems work too

Seriously, you haven't seen broken epic, if all they are doing is controlling some 180 HD of undead. Pish, go to town and let them come at you in your Desecreated and Unhallowed (with Alter and Freedom of Movement for all Undead under your control attached) sanctum sanctorum. Then Bolster to make it harder. It's called beating them at their own game.

However, the best way is to find the bastard who is pulling this nonsense, and introduce him to Quickened Split-Ray Enervation + Split-Ray Enervation and see how he likes casting with 4d4+4 negative levels...

arguskos
2009-04-24, 09:52 PM
Actually, that could be done with Craft Contingent Spell, non-epic, even.
True, but there's almost no way to get backlash-typed damage pre-Epic. You'd need an epic spell to do it, but it could be done I bet. Anyways, I liked the "looks like undead, walks like undead, is really a duck" thought above.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-24, 09:56 PM
There's always a Chained Life Ward to make his best bruisers immune to turning....could swarm them with a massive load of useless 1HD zombies before the real threat gets in turn range...there's undead who are resistant or outright immune to turning...

Ravens_cry
2009-04-24, 09:57 PM
How were these epics created? Was it "Oh, let's play an epic game" or were they built from Level 1, or somewhere around there?
Because, maybe you can affect the things and people and places they care about instead of them directly. If they have a special temple they went to for healing, or they have a fondness for the bar where they first met, desecrate the first, and burn down the latter. Or something like that. Do the characters have family and friends they actually care about? Threaten them. L
et's face it, epic, especially epic magic, is scary stuff. These people can deal with just about anything, and with a little player creativity, even that. So unless you create something monstrously over the top, which is only going to make things harder next time,it's time to go subtle.
But for this to work, the players have to care about their characters and their world.
Just my 4 halfpennies.

Swordguy
2009-04-24, 10:01 PM
Apply the Pseudonatural Template from the Epic level Handbook. Spell Resistance =HDx5 (plus a bunch of other stuff). However, your 12-20 HD big undead critters are looking at SR 60-100 (on top of what they may already have), which even Assay Spell Resistance will have an issue getting through.

Although the title of the thread is a misnomer. Epic level characters don't get hurt. They're either winning initiative and killing stuff, or they've lost initiative and they're dead. Assuming the epic level wizard doesn't just make an epic spell to "kill target X" and be done with it.

Josh the Aspie
2009-04-24, 10:03 PM
Be aware that, if you are talking about the game I think you are, played on RPoL, at least one of the players (I.e. Ryvaken) is an occasional reader here.

Douglas
2009-04-24, 11:03 PM
Although the title of the thread is a misnomer. Epic level characters don't get hurt. They're either winning initiative and killing stuff, or they've lost initiative and they're dead.
Or losing initiative and winning anyway (http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=7698&ti=72&date=1211950428&msgpage=&show=all). Level 50 gestalt arena match, and my opponent was no pushover. Optimized epic characters can fairly easily get immunity to pretty much all of the normal instant-win abilities.

Llama231
2009-04-24, 11:51 PM
Remember, enough fire and stuff kills anything.

Or make the villain go demilich.

monty
2009-04-24, 11:54 PM
Remember, enough fire and stuff kills anything.

If fire doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough. If they're immune to fire, use divine fire.

Vexxation
2009-04-24, 11:56 PM
If fire doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough. If they're immune to fire, use divine fire.

Alternatively, use Hellfire Warlocks.

Faulty
2009-04-24, 11:59 PM
Allow the PCs to thwart some of the undead while the lich is scrying on him. Then have him ally with some living dragon arcanists.

kpenguin
2009-04-25, 12:05 AM
Walk over to the other side of the table and whack them upside on the head.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-25, 04:19 AM
Why are you DMing an epic game if you don't know how to challenge epic PCs?

FWIW, it's practically impossible, especially if you add Epic Spellcasting to the mix. You'll need to use NPCs with epic levels or monsters with epic spellcasting. Deities are a pretty good bet (and make sense).

SilverSheriff
2009-04-25, 04:29 AM
Make a BBEG that is higher level than all of them who has discovered a way to Permanancy True Strike, he then goes on to give out the weapons to Lower Level Adventurers who accept because the Party is giving them a 'Bad Name'.:smalltongue:

kentma57
2009-04-25, 03:28 PM
Seriously, you haven't seen broken epic, if all they are doing is controlling some 180 HD of undead. Pish, go to town and let them come at you in your Desecreated and Unhallowed (with Alter and Freedom of Movement for all Undead under your control attached) sanctum sanctorum. Then Bolster to make it harder. It's called beating them at their own game.

I don't care about them controlling 180 HD of undead(each), I care about them removing multiple dracolitches(the field leaders of the army) per turn.


Why are you DMing an epic game if you don't know how to challenge epic PCs?

:smallannoyed: It's not that I can't handle epic level characters, I am having trouble making the encounter fun for them to play. I am sure some people might find taking control of a large number of enemy soldiers every turn fun, but I think the rest of the party might actualy want to fight the army.

This said I could just say they are unable take control of the dracolitches, but I need a reason.
(I like the idea of a backlash everytime they try and take contol of a group of undead. I might tie this to a magic item that each, field general carries. Field generals being undead with class levels who are there because of the range on some of these spell and the fact that unguided undead armies can do some stupid things.)

On the note of character motivation; they do not have places they want to protect(belive me I checked) they are evil, the only reason they are fighting and not just moving to a diffrent plane is that they wanted to be the first onces to conquor the world.


Walk over to the other side of the table and whack them upside on the head.

Tried that, it worked. None of them are playing Artificers.

Right so maybe that will give you a diffrent prespective, currently I am considering: ways of making the BBEG immune to their tricks, new tricks for the BBEG, and fun ways to use Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-25, 03:34 PM
The opponent is an epic-level spellcaster. Give him Epic Spellcasting, and you have a rules explanation for anything and everything. Of course he's developed an epic spell to protect at least his most important minions from being controlled.

kentma57
2009-04-25, 04:01 PM
The opponent is an epic-level spellcaster. Give him Epic Spellcasting, and you have a rules explanation for anything and everything. Of course he's developed an epic spell to protect at least his most important minions from being controlled.

True, I might go for the epic spellcast excuse.
I suppose the basic goal of this thread is to hurt epic level characters. My BBEG can kill them if they don't stay on their toes, but up to that they should be chalenged, but not to the point that if they make small mistakes they instantly die.

Learnedguy
2009-04-25, 04:03 PM
Or losing initiative and winning anyway (http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=7698&ti=72&date=1211950428&msgpage=&show=all). Level 50 gestalt arena match, and my opponent was no pushover. Optimized epic characters can fairly easily get immunity to pretty much all of the normal instant-win abilities.

You felt you had to brag about that didn't you:smallconfused:

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-04-25, 04:27 PM
C'mon people, this problem is already resolved.

If multiple people are controlling the same creature and are giving different commands (see SRD), they need to make opposed charisma checks to see whose orders stand.

Since the necromancer is already controlling his undead (via command/control undead, turning or epic spells) they need to win opposed charisma checks against him. And since he's a dry lich Sorceror, I don't think the resident wizard or cleric are going to win those checks.

Douglas
2009-04-25, 04:28 PM
You felt you had to brag about that didn't you:smallconfused:
More making a point that the common "initiative is everything in epic" idea isn't really true. Sure, high level play might start resembling rocket tag in a lot of cases, but eventually a comprehensive suite of anti-rocket shields is available to essentially everyone and you have to either spend multiple rounds figuring out which shield your opponent is lacking (if any) or fall back on lesser tactics. Oh, and a large part of the "anti-rocket shield set" is actually available pre-epic.

kentma57
2009-04-25, 05:44 PM
C'mon people, this problem is already resolved.

If multiple people are controlling the same creature and are giving different commands (see SRD), they need to make opposed charisma checks to see whose orders stand.

Since the necromancer is already controlling his undead (via command/control undead, turning or epic spells) they need to win opposed charisma checks against him. And since he's a dry lich Sorceror, I don't think the resident wizard or cleric are going to win those checks.

Thank you, you just saved me a lot of time. I though a rule like this exeisted but could not find a refrence to it.

Zhalath
2009-04-25, 05:58 PM
Well, you could make up BS, and say that the undead can't be controlled, or they get Will save bonuses, for being "built well" or something.
I personally support the "undead-looking living" idea. Throw enemies at them that look like something else, but they're actually a lot stronger (mummy? no, it's a hunefer. And it just killed you.).

Another great idea is to use odd energy types. Sure, they may be fire-immune, but are they acid-immune? Sonic immune? Unholy immune? Plus, there's always the unblockable hellfire.

Take their goodies. Antimagic field, Mordenkainen's disjunction, greater dispel magic. Disarm them of their weapons, sunder their equipment. They may have good Fort to resist disintegrate, but does their armor?

Apply heavy invisibility to some enemies, and catch them by surprise.

If all else fails, use some of those really broken Epic Level Handbook monsters, like the aforementioned hunefer, or a winterwight. Your players will hate you, soo much, for those, but it might serve as a good ego check.

Myrmex
2009-04-25, 06:03 PM
However, the best way is to find the bastard who is pulling this nonsense, and introduce him to Quickened Split-Ray Enervation + Split-Ray Enervation and see how he likes casting with 4d4+4 negative levels...

Level draining effects lose efficacy swiftly after ninth level, due to deathward.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-04-26, 06:03 AM
@kentma57;

There's this little-known rule in Libris Mortis about hauntings. Basically, you get an undead creature and make it a spirit-thing, called a "haunting presence". As long as it is a spirit form it cannot be detected or targeted but it can only attack through animating objects or telekinetically hurling stuff. Then, via a special exorcism thingy, they can force it to its physical form in order to fight it.

Look it up. It's suitably scary even for epic PCs if you do it right.

Xenogears
2009-04-26, 10:25 AM
Be really mean and toss out an Atropal at them? They are undead with regeneration. Sure its an abomination (and breaks the rules on regeneration) but that means that all damage not dealt by either a good or sentient weapon is converted to subdyal (which as an undead it is immune to). Also it can rebuke/command undead as if he was a lvl 72 cleric. Meh atropal are awesome. Plus its a ten foot tall flying god fetus of death....

Zhalath
2009-04-26, 08:58 PM
Level draining effects lose efficacy swiftly after ninth level, due to deathward.

That's why we have dispel magic. And antimagic field.