PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons Level 20 Druid Questions



penbed400
2009-04-25, 01:26 AM
Hey, so I'm making a level 20 druid for one of my friends campaigns. I've always been good at making characters at lower levels and developing them over time but I've never really made it to that high of a level so I don't really know how to make a character that high of a level. So can I get any tips? Also any magic items anybody might want to suggest for me to look up? Also I've worked on getting my Wisdom up pretty high and a thought came to mind and I thought I'd bounce it off of here before I proposed it to my DM. I have metamagic feats in silent spell, still spell and quickened spell. When you apply a metamagic feat to a spell it bumps up the required casting level for it and you have to cast it as that level spell. Silent spell bumps it up one casting level, still spell bumps it up a casting level and quickened spell bumps it up four casting levels. Now if I wanted a silent, non-moving spontaneous spell I have to change the minimum of a 3rd level spell into a 9th level spell and take up a slot there. But what if my bonus spells for my wisdom score go off of the chart following the pattern given by the book. Does that give me a theoretical 10th, 11th, 12th etc. spell slots for placing metamagicked spells? Just thought I'd try that out. Anyways any help would be greatly appreciated.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-25, 02:31 AM
1. Druids don't normally need Silent or Still spells. You could just Wild Shape into a form and stick to it! For this to work, you'll want Natural Spell feat from PHB and a 20th-level druid with NS is as optimised as one could get ;)

2. Even if your spellcasting attribute is 'off the scale', your non-epic maximum spell level is still 9th. Therefore you cannot cast a Silent, Stilled, Quickened 4th-level or higher spell without going epic or going into prestige classes such as Incantatrix or something Dweomer (CD web enhancement; just can't remember the name off the top of my head).

There are, indeed, other methods available such as practical metamagic and whatnots, but they're either specific to a metamagic feat or a spell chosen at the time of taking the feat. Most of them do not reduce the spell level increase below +1 per metamagic feat though.

There is an epic feat 'Improved Spellcasting Capacity' which gives you an extra spell slot one level higher than you could normally cast (so 1st time you take this feat you'll gain 1 10th-level spell slot plus any bonus spell slots for having high Wis, 2nd time 1 11th-level spell slot plus bonus slot and so on).

So, short answer is no you don't get any higher-level spell slots for having high Wisdom and therefore you cannot cast metamagicked spells of 9th-level or higher without any feats etc.

Bluebeard
2009-04-25, 03:57 AM
H Does that give me a theoretical 10th, 11th, 12th etc. spell slots for placing metamagicked spells?
Sorry, Dave.


In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-25, 07:03 AM
As has been said already, you cannot gain a higher level bonus spell slot from a high Wisdom score unless you already have spell slots of that level. For example, a character with Wisdom 30+ will only get a bonus 10th level spell if they already have 10th level spells available. As another example, look at the Bard spellcasting progression. At a level where a - is given for a spell level, the character will not even get bonus spells of that level, whereas if a 0 is given, that character has bonus spells of that level available. All classes effectively have a - for every spell level above 9th, therefore they cannot gain bonus spells of those levels. There's an epic feat called Improved Spell Capacity which does grant spell slots above 9th level, and once this feat is taken the character will also gain bonus spell slots of that level for a high ability score.

For magic items, check out the Wilding Clasp in the Magic Item Compendium. Put one on each piece of gear you get so it will function while you're Wild Shaped. One particularly powerful item for any high level character to consider is a Belt of Magnificense +6 from the Miniatures Handbook. For 200,000 gp it adds an Enhancement bonus to all of your ability scores, add on a Wilding Clasp and it keeps working when you Wild Shape. Add a Monk's Belt to it for 19,500 gp (+50% cost, DMG p282) and you get your Wisdom bonus to AC and can make unarmed strikes regardless of your form. At that level every character should have a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon. Even with the cost of an NPC to embed it for you with a Limited Wish (standard price 3410 gp) it's worth getting over heavy fortification armor of +2 or higher. Since it is a permanent attachment to your character, effectively melded rather than carried or worn, it would remain functional regardless of form, though adding a wilding clasp would still make it worth having. Other good items would include a Necklace of Adaptation, Ring of Freedom of Movement, and the standard AC boosting items.

You should also get a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. Each day you'll prepare either Energy Immunity twice or Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, alternating between those each day. Cast them with the Rod of Extend, using the Peal of Power to recover and recast an Energy Immunity. Each will last 48 hours at a time, so for the cost of those two items and two 6th level spell slots you'll always be immune to all five types of energy and get a +6 resistance bonus on all saving throws. You should also get a standard Rod of Empower to do the Fire Seeds trick, along with quite a bit of Unguent of Timelessness to prepare it ahead of time and/or two more 6th level Pearls of Power to only use one spell slot each day on it.

For your feats you definitely should get Natural Spell. Forget about Still and Silent, they're not worth having. Another good feat to have is Companion Spellbond from PHB2, it greatly increases the range at which you can share spells with and buff/heal your companion. Quicken Spell is good to have, Flyby Attack is great for spellcasting in avian form, Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple are useful for combat forms, as is Combat Reflexes. Magic of the Land from Races of the Wild could be useful if you can consistently make the check, choosing Killoren from that book as your race would make a good combination with Aspect of the Ancient. I wouldn't recommend Augment Summoning at this level, and any metamagic besides Quicken is probably going to be a wasted feat.

The strongest choices for your animal companion would be a Fleshraker dinosaur from MM3 or a Dire Eagle from Races of Stone. Take the feat Natural Bond from Complete Adventurer, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in whatever order you choose so apply the -3 adjustment for a more powerful companion first, then add the +3 for Natural Bond to negate it. Your companion gets feats for its extra hit dice as normal, for a Fleshraker get Virulent Poison from Savage Species and Ability Focus: Poison, for either give it enough cross-class Spellcraft ranks to get Mage Slayer from Complete Arcane. If you can get away with it, take the feat Exalted Companion (BoED) to get a Celestial version of your animal companion, and give it Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty since it will be good-aligned, though note that this is a dirty, dirty trick that most DMs won't stand for. If you're going to be Exalted, you may as well get Nymph's Kiss at level 1, especially if playing a Killoren. Ancestral Relic is another great choice for a good-aligned character, you could get a Monk's Belt of Magnificence +6 plus Freedom of Movement (as Ring of) plus Armor +8 (as Bracers of) plus a built-in Wilding Clasp as your ancestral relic, potentially paying only 14,056 gp for it (purchase that value in logging rights, Craft: logging check to get x3 that value in timber, Craft: lumber to turn it into cut boards worth x3 that value, Craft: carpentry to turn it into x3 that value in furniture, sacrifice the furniture's full value into the relic). All the more reason to outright ban the Book of Exalted Cheese.

Most of your spells should be used for buffing, since Quickened Barkskin, (lesser rod of) Extended Nature's Favor, Quickened Enrage Animal (not concentrated on), and Quickened Mass Snake's Swiftness are going to be better than offensive spellcasting at this level. There are a select few offensive spells that are worth casting at this level, such as (rod of) Extended (Greater) Creeping Cold, (Quickened) Venomous Volley (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-Druid.pdf) if you have a Fleshraker, Empowered Fire Seeds (berry bombs), (Mass) Drown, Entangle + Blood Snow (Frostburn), Slime Wave, and there are a few others. You should also be sure to have plenty of utility and problem-solving spells prepared, particularly Heal, Greater Dispel Magic, Find the Path, and just about anything of the Divination school. You can spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally, which can be used to get one or more Unicorns to use their Cure and Neutralize Poison spell-like abilities, a Djinni to Major Creation twenty cubic feet of Saffron or Cloves which you can then sell to break the economy or sacrifice to your ancestral relic, and powerful Huge Earth Elementals which will probably just serve as speedbumps at this level. Try to have a variety of spells prepared so you can handle just about any situation that may come up, and don't use more spells than necessary to win a fight or overcome a challenge, and remember that Wild Shape: Dire Polar Bear (Frostburn) makes you an extremely powerful combatant.

Zergrusheddie
2009-04-25, 08:00 AM
If you are starting at level 20, one cheesy thing to do is start at Venerable age. With Timeless Body you incur the bonuses but not the penalties, so you can get a +3 Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma adder without the huge negatives to your physical stats. It's silly, but if you are starting at level 20 it is an option.

I never liked Metamagic as a Druid; mostly because between summons, you in Wildshape, and your Animal Companion you don't need to Metamagic. If you can get your DM to sign off on it, the spell Creeping Cold is brutal when Extended; it usually does 1d6, 2d6, and than 3d6, but by doubling how long it lasts you end doing nasty amounts of damage to a single creature. Scuplt Spell is another decent Metamagic because you can turn those Wall of Thorns into cylinders and take out larger portions of the battlefield.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400 is the "Druid's Handbook". You can find loads of useful information in it.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Thrawn183
2009-04-25, 09:05 AM
Spell choice for druids is key. Most casters look at higher and higher level spells when showing off their power, but frequently some of the best druid spells are low level spells that just become amazing at high level play or when cast with a high caster level.

Ex: Giant Vermin (Core): A level 4 spell to summon a colossal creature with 300 HP. It has a high attack bonus, grapple modifier and devastating poison. Blinding Spittle (Spell Compendium): So good I almost can't recommend you take it. A level 2 spell that blinds, no save no SR, on a touch attack. The craziness? As long as the enemy isn't a humanoid or a monstrous humanoid, you aught to be able to hit their touch AC on a 2.

You'll want to be careful about trying to overcome saving throws. Many times enemies have rediculous saves at that level that need to be overcome through negative levels or other penalties to saving throws first.

Don't try to be the party healer unless you can get Mass Heal added to your spell list. Heal is still a great spell, but you definitely aren't the primary healer for the party. (I mean, Mass Cure Critical Wounds as a ninth level spell!? Talk about absurdly bad.) Mind your spells. They are probably your most powerful asset and you have access to every one ever printed. Come up with more than one spell list to prepare so that you can take advantage of preparing a spell list for the situation you expect to encounter (city life vs. adventuring vs. the final showdown) without slowing down the game and pissing off your friends.

Your caster level needs to be as high as possible to overcome spell resistance. You might want to consider taking spell penetration and/or greater spell penetration. Definitely get items that boost your caster level (the ioun stone is core and the prayer bead is also core but will only work for your long duration buffs, though +4 to caster level is so good its still worth it)

Lastly, though this point has been addressed, look to your defenses. At this point you should be looking for outright immunities. Immunity to types of energy damage. Freedom of Movement. Mind blank for immunity to mind effecting. Heavy Fortification for immunity to crits and sneak attack. There is an armor in BoED that will make you immune to negative energy and death effects. Look at getting immunity to poison (can't remember if druids already get this.) There is an item that does this, but I couldn't find it when I just checked the SRD.

Edit: Oh, yeah, the metamagic rods are very nice. They let you save a feat, and feats are precious. Don't forget that you can only use them 3/day so you might want to grab a few that are the weaker versions if you know you are going to use them on weaker spells, buying the more expensive version in that scenario would just be a waste of gold.

Normally you'd probably hear a lot about making sure you can fly and fight flying opponents, but as a duid you've already got that covered.

Um... don't use shapechange unless you feel like needing to take a shower after every session to get yourself clean again and remember that with open ended abilities like wild shape and spell casting where you have access to all the spells on your list ever printed, the more time you spend searching source books, the more powerful your character will be. (and conveniently people have compiled lists of the best stuff for you already)

Jack_Simth
2009-04-25, 09:41 AM
Let's see...

As a Druid, you can be quite strong very easily, without thinking about it too much. Natural Spell is obvious, "dump strength and dex" is fairly obvious. Wilding Clasps (Magic Item Compendium) are less obvious, but already mentioned.

You're a Divine caster, so you don't need to worry about spells known - if you find out a spell doesn't work well in practice, you can just prepare something else the next day. It's a fairly simple matter to just keep cycling through until you figure out what works well, and what doesn't.

Wild Shape gets very, very useful - especially Elemental Wild Shape. Three times per day, for up to 20 hours at a stretch, you can turn into ... oh, a Huge Air elemental for a dex of 29 and a speed of Fly 100 (perfect), four points of natural armor, and DR 5/- ... and that's just the defensive stuff. Or maybe an Invisible Stalker for natural invisibility and Improved Tracking. Or maybe an Earth Elemental for Earth Glide. Or just use your regular Wild Shape to pick up one of the Pouncing Cats for five attacks on a charge. All of the above? Core. There's some crazy stuff you can be all day if you look. Again - as with the spells, you can keep trying again until you find something that's good.

Your Animal Companion is a lot less useful at these levels. Still, it can be viable - especially if your DM lets Natural Bond (Races of the Wild, I think?) help mitigate the level-adjusted Companions. You'll want something in a Dire critter for the all good saves, and possibly Natural Bond to extend your Share Spells range. Otherwise, it's mostly for carrying stuff you don't want to be burdened with at this point, so focus on something that has a good set of defenses.

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 01:55 PM
On level 20, a boosted Dire Tiger is a rather competitive Barbarian Charger (effectively), although it misses out the 2x PA damage from two-handed weapon, but on counterbalance gets all attacks at almost full bonus and has a whole ton of them (5, I think). Not quite as much mana as creatures with character levels, but plenty good. Get it Psychic Reformation for good stuff... :P Tyrannosaur is a rather stylish level 20 beast too. Just...remember to spam boost spells and they'll work out just fine. Fleshraker [MM3] is still solid on level 20 with enough boosts thanks to Venomfire being totally busted and quite possibly outdamaging your average Charger. Oh, and the Horrid animals from Eberron Campaign Settings should be solid. Horrid Tiger should kick Dire Tiger's ass. Horrid Elephant is good except for being Gargantuan and thus rarely fitting anywhere.

Giant Vermin allows you to enlarge 3 Scorpions into Colossal proportions. If there's room in the area, it's an insane effect. Just keep a jar with 3 Scorpions in it.


As far as Wildshape goes, standard Wildshape (especially Plant Wildshape) has plenty of uses too: see Dire Tortoise [Sandstorm], Roc [MM], Octopus Tree [FF], Ironmaw [FF], Dire Polar Bear [Frost], etc.

Charlie Kemek
2009-04-25, 06:42 PM
For magic items, check out the Wilding Clasp in the Magic Item Compendium. Put one on each piece of gear you get so it will function while you're Wild Shaped. One particularly powerful item for any high level character to consider is a Belt of Magnificense +6 from the Miniatures Handbook. For 200,000 gp it adds an Enhancement bonus to all of your ability scores, add on a Wilding Clasp and it keeps working when you Wild Shape. Add a Monk's Belt to it for 19,500 gp (+50% cost, DMG p282) and you get your Wisdom bonus to AC and can make unarmed strikes regardless of your form. At that level every character should have a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon. Even with the cost of an NPC to embed it for you with a Limited Wish (standard price 3410 gp) it's worth getting over heavy fortification armor of +2 or higher. Since it is a permanent attachment to your character, effectively melded rather than carried or worn, it would remain functional regardless of form, though adding a wilding clasp would still make it worth having. Other good items would include a Necklace of Adaptation, Ring of Freedom of Movement, and the standard AC boosting items.

emphasis mine.

actually, the MIC changed that. it is now no additional cost. as it is the more recently published book, by RAW it replaces the old rules.

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 07:25 PM
emphasis mine.

actually, the MIC changed that. it is now no additional cost. as it is the more recently published book, by RAW it replaces the old rules.

Only "general abilities" (enhancement stat buffs, standard AC buffs [Armor, Natural Armor, Deflection] & resistance save buffs) can be added this way though - all the others, such as Monk's Belt, would still use the old formula (Belt of Magnificence has non-standard slot stats hence why it can't use the given rules).

This runs into a bigger problem too: Belt of Magnificence costs 200000gp. Adding anything to it makes it an epic item and not only unbuildable basically everywhere, but 10 times the cost. So you'd look at 2195000gp instead of 219500gp, latter of which is easily over all non-epic WBLs.

Draz74
2009-04-25, 07:25 PM
But what if my bonus spells for my wisdom score go off of the chart following the pattern given by the book. Does that give me a theoretical 10th, 11th, 12th etc. spell slots for placing metamagicked spells?

Heh, I can see it now ... the Level 1 Gray Elf Wizard who can cast Cloudkill with his bonus Level 5 spell slot ...

Jack_Simth
2009-04-25, 08:45 PM
actually, the MIC changed that. it is now no additional cost. as it is the more recently published book, by RAW it replaces the old rules.RAW = Rules as Written. I'm curious where you find the particular book that says New > Old.

monty
2009-04-25, 08:48 PM
RAW = Rules as Written. I'm curious where you find the particular book that says New > Old.

I don't know if it's physically written anywhere, but if they didn't intend new rules to supersede old ones, then why would they write material that is explicitly contradictory?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-25, 08:50 PM
This runs into a bigger problem too: Belt of Magnificence costs 200000gp. Adding anything to it makes it an epic item and not only unbuildable basically everywhere, but 10 times the cost. So you'd look at 2195000gp instead of 219500gp, latter of which is easily over all non-epic WBLs.

Incorrect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm). "An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items." It does not grant any epic bonuses, therefore it is not at x10 cost. Other things to consider would be that there are no prerequisites for creating this as your ancestral relic, and a CR 5/ECL 12 Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn is able to make this with no additional feats or effort.


Edit:
The Errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for each of the core books includes the Primary Source rules. "The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on." Also according to WotC, the Core books and SRD are always considered the Primary Source over any secondary book, therefore the DMG will always override the MIC by RAW, unless it is a topic not covered in the DMG.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-25, 08:57 PM
Incorrect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm). "An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items." It does not grant any epic bonuses, therefore it is not at x10 cost. Other things to consider would be that there are no prerequisites for creating this as your ancestral relic, and a CR 5/ECL 12 Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn is able to make this with no additional feats or effort.

Err.... from the link you supplied:
"Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items." as one of the entries under "While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item."



Edit:
The Errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for each of the core books includes the Primary Source rules. "The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on." Also according to WotC, the Core books and SRD are always considered the Primary Source over any secondary book, therefore the DMG will always override the MIC by RAW, unless it is a topic not covered in the DMG.
Cool.

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 09:02 PM
Incorrect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm). "An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items." It does not grant any epic bonuses, therefore it is not at x10 cost. Other things to consider would be that there are no prerequisites for creating this as your ancestral relic, and a CR 5/ECL 12 Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn is able to make this with no additional feats or effort.

Correct you are, pardon me.


That said, trying to get one may still be hard as not every world has Midgard Dwarfs with ancestral relics (especially since Ancestral Relic is a good-only feat and Midgard Dwarves are Usually Neutral) they're itching to sell, or creatures with the Ancestral Relic-feat in the first place (it's kinda hard to acquire it from a pre-epic character).

But yeah, provided DM doesn't object, it's a fine idea. If he does, using MiC rules to add the relevant stat enhancements to other appropriate items and Clasping 4-5 of them still works (all you really need is Str, Dex, Con & Wis - Cha and Int are optional).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-25, 09:16 PM
You misunderstand, a character can gain that item via the Ancestral Relic feat, or they could hire a Midgard Dwarf to craft one. Those are just two of many ways to gain such an item, the 200k 'limit' for non-epic items is an extremely small hurdle especially for a character of this level.

penbed400
2009-04-25, 09:24 PM
You guys are doing great jobs at this whole tips thing and I'm stringing along quite nicely I think but now I'm kind of confused about the Belt of Magnificense +6 / Monk's Belt. Can't you only have one belt per character? That's at least what it said in my DMG. Unless it's a combination of the two items in which case it does seem like said item would be pretty hard to get even for a level 20 character. They would have to go on quite a quest to get it. So I'm a little confused between your argument if I can get it or not. If I can't that's fine and I think I'll just take the Monk's belt, that seems to help out a lot more even if the Belt of Magnificense +6 gives all my stats a boost. Any other suggestions for that slot if I can't get it?

sonofzeal
2009-04-25, 09:29 PM
A Belt of Battle is highly affordable and 1/day gives you an extra turn. That's pretty much the definitive "awesome belt".

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-25, 09:43 PM
In the DMG there's a sidebar on page 282 that gives rules for adding additional properties to a magic item. Pay the normal cost of the most expensive item (Belt of Magnificense), then pay an additional 50% of the cost of additional items (Monk's Belt) to get the item's market price. If you're starting at level 20, you should be starting with the standard wealth by level of 760,000 gp in cash, magic items, and other assets. Even if you're limited to spending no more than half your wealth by level on a single item, you could have had this item at level 18, therefore if you had to go on some sort of quest to get it you must have done that two levels ago, and you wouldn't need to do it again.

If you take the feat Ancestral Relic you can get any item you want worth up to the given level-based limitation as long as you've put at least that value of cash, goods, and other items into it, with no additional requirements on your part other than what's given in the feat's description. In that case, the Monk's Belt of Magnificense +6 of Armor +8 of Freedom of Movement plus Wilding Clasp is unarguably attainable as long as you have the cash for it. The Craft/Craft/Craft trick to get it for 1/27th the cost is a bit cheesy, but considering that most non-cash loot you would obtain throughout your career is typically sold for half its value you should at least be able to say you've purchased such items from the party loot pool for half price and sacrificed their full value into the relic to gain its current properties for half price. Also note that the Ancestral Relic's maximum value based on your level is equal to half your typical wealth by level as given on Table 5-1 in the DMG, so its maximum value should continue to increase beyond level 20 using the epic wealth by level table on page 209 of the DMG. It's always upgradable as long as you continue gaining levels, and you can reassign the entire value each time you change it so you can completely drop one property to recover its full value for another new property or to upgrade another one. Plus you can stockpile value in it, so if the party finds a trove containing a +3 sword that would be sold for half value, you can buy it from the party for half its value (and get back some of that when it's divided up) and add its full value to your ancestral relic. Even if you go over the level-based limit, it still has that much value to use on properties when you get to a higher level.

penbed400
2009-04-25, 10:14 PM
I've been running through the MIC and DMG for forever trying to find some good resistance spells. I have enough AC and everything but I'm looking for a way to up my resistance to different kinds of energy. I mean I can store a Resist Energy spell into my quarterstaff which will give me some energy protection once it kicks up but thats only for one energy. What about the other...4? I think it's 4. I'm just trying to cover myself. Especially sine what my party role is. There is a good character and an evil character and being the neutral druid I kinda got shunted into peace keeper between the two. An easy enough job since we're running after the same goal but still at the same time I don't want to get caught in the cross fire.

Riffington
2009-04-25, 10:30 PM
I don't know if it's physically written anywhere, but if they didn't intend new rules to supersede old ones, then why would they write material that is explicitly contradictory?

They intend new rules to supersede old ones if you happen to like them better. All rules outside Core are designed to be optional*. Some people like the MIC, and some don't; this has nothing to do with RAW (obviously the RAW in the MIC are different from the RAW in Core and elsewhere). The only sense in which RAW has anything to do with whether or not you use MIC is the extent to which RAW is a "common language", and then you just have an empirical question of what percentage of people use the MIC's rules on item creation. The answer at the moment appears to be "some", though this may change at some point.



14,056 gp for it (purchase that value in logging rights, Craft: logging check to get x3 that value in timber, Craft: lumber to turn it into cut boards worth x3 that value, Craft: carpentry to turn it into x3 that value in furniture
Leaving aside the question of whether logging is Craft:logging or something else to start with, the Craft:carpentry at DC:30 (and with a feat permitting you to take 10) would take 80 years. At DC:20 it'll be over twice that.

*all rules inside Core are also optional, of course, but some are more optional than others. For example, not even the most dedicated RAW-heads seem to like use-activated True Strike at bargain prices or monks without proficiency in unarmed strike; not even the most adventurous DIYers seem to change the rule that high Dex improves armor class.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 02:03 AM
Get a Standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. Every other day you'll prepare Energy Immunity twice, from the Spell Compendium. Use the Rod of Extend to cast it twice, the Pearl to recover it and the Rod to cast it a third time. Doing this every other day will give you three constant Extended Energy Immunity spells, for immunity to three energy types. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, also from the Spell Compendium. Cast each with the Rod of Extend, again use the Pearl to recover Energy Immunity and use the Rod to cast it a third time. Doing this every other day will give you two constant Energy Immunity spells, for immunity to the last two energy types, and a constant Superior Resistance spell for a +6 bonus on all saving throws. That's six spells always on you for +6 to all saves and immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage, at a cost of two 6th level spell slots every day, a 6th level pearl of power, and a standard metamagic rod of extend.



The craft/craft/craft trick works a lot better with arcane spellcasters, you can do it in just a few days with Fabricate.

NephandiMan
2009-05-19, 06:07 PM
Slightly off-topic, but the Monk's Belt allows you to add your Wisdom bonus to your AC, provided you're unarmored? Seriously?

Wow, I've been doing it wrong. I thought all it gave was the untyped +1 that a fifth-level monk got (and the 1d8 lethal unarmed strikes).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 06:16 PM
Slightly off-topic, but the Monk's Belt allows you to add your Wisdom bonus to your AC, provided you're unarmored? Seriously?

Wow, I've been doing it wrong. I thought all it gave was the untyped +1 that a fifth-level monk got (and the 1d8 lethal unarmed strikes).It's questionable. It reads 'Gives you the AC bonus of a 5th level monk', which either gives +1, or the entire AC bonus entry(including Wis to AC and the inability to wear armor). I think either entry is reasonable, RAW suggests Wis to AC and RAI(IMHO) suggests just the +1.

NephandiMan
2009-05-19, 06:28 PM
Fair enough. Does anyone know of an official (or even semi-official) ruling on the matter?

monty
2009-05-19, 08:22 PM
It's questionable. It reads 'Gives you the AC bonus of a 5th level monk', which either gives +1, or the entire AC bonus entry(including Wis to AC and the inability to wear armor). I think either entry is reasonable, RAW suggests Wis to AC and RAI(IMHO) suggests just the +1.

1 AC and a bit of unarmed damage for 13,000 gp? I hope not.

NephandiMan
2009-05-19, 08:44 PM
It would hardly be the first grossly underpowered monk-related thing Wizards of the Coast has created.

Exhibit A: the monk.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-19, 08:55 PM
According to the Primary Source rules I cited above, the text entry for the 'AC bonus' Monk class feature overrides the table bonus given for the same class feature.

"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

"AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load."

The table only serves to conveniently remind a Monk when their AC increases by that one point per five levels. The Monk's Belt grants an ability which "functions just like the Monk's AC bonus" which it wouldn't even need to specify if it only granted a flat +1 bonus. According to RAW, it does indeed grant your Wisdom bonus to AC when you are unarmored and unencumbered. Furthermore, this is how the item functions by RAI, just take it from the FAQ:

The monk’s belt says it grants the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel
monk. What does that mean?
When the monk’s belt refers to the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel
monk, it is referring to the monk ability called AC bonus.
It grants +1 bonus to AC and adds your Wisdom modifier to
your Armor Class if you are not wearing armor and are not
encumbered.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 10:53 PM
1 AC and a bit of unarmed damage for 13,000 gp? I hope not.Apparatus of Qwalish, anyone? I've got a watertight trashcan availible for a mere 90K GP. Anyone? At all?

But though I agree that allowing the Wis bonus is not in any way a balance issue, WotC, especially core, seemd to be focused on making sure there is no more benefit for one character than another from an item. Note the lack of odd numbers on stat boosters. That's why I think the RAI was probably that Monks and non-Monks would get the same benefit from the item, no matter how useless that made it.

NephandiMan
2009-05-20, 04:27 AM
Thanks for pointing out that bit in the FAQ, Biffoniacus. That's definitely a handy document to have around, even though, as Sstoopidtallkid's sig points out, it isn't RAW.

STK, looks like RAI in this case is (thankfully) something other than what you say.