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sonofzeal
2009-04-25, 08:14 PM
There's been a lot of threads asking about favorite 3.5 books, or which ones to buy first. But what about which ones to buy last? What are the least useful, worst balanced, least fun books for 3.5? I humbly submit the following...

Complete Champion (poorly written and poorly balanced, in a sort of "screw you guys we're ditching this edition anyway" manner)
Complete Psionics (stupid stupid nerfs, mediocre additions)
Tome of Magic (Binders are awesome but desperately needed a better mechanic, and the rest is just sad)

The Glyphstone
2009-04-25, 08:21 PM
Probably MMIV. Dragonspawn are neat, but so many "monsters" with class levels, DO NOT WANT.

HeavySleeper
2009-04-25, 08:23 PM
I'm going to speak up in defense of the Tome of Magic. Or part of it anyway. Non-Binder bits, I agree on, but the Binder is decently balanced, unique, and quite a bit of fun to play. The rest of the book can go, but Binders are almost worth the cost of the book by themselves.

InaVegt
2009-04-25, 08:27 PM
Monster Manual I, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Epic Level Handbook, and Unearther Arcana (It's got pretty much everything in these books in the SRD)

Deities and Demigods, while there is lots in the SRD, is worth it due to the completely stated out pantheons.

newbDM
2009-04-25, 08:28 PM
I second Complete Psionics.

Why did the writer try so hard to destroy what he created? :smallfrown:

Vexxation
2009-04-25, 08:29 PM
Monster Manual I

But you miss out on iconic monsters! Beholder, Illithid, Gith, -yanki and -zerai, and I'm sure at least a couple others. Surely that's worth the cost of a used copy from Amazon.com (or your preferred secondhand source)

Skaroq
2009-04-25, 08:30 PM
Drow of the Underdark. It's kinda okay, but I made the stupid mistake of buying it when I wasn't running a campaign with drow in it. $30 wasted. I'll sell it on eBay, probably. ONLY get it if you're running a campaign focusing on drow.
And InaVegt, how could you hate the frickin' FIRST MONSTER MANUAL?! It's one of the core books! You can't hate one of the core books!

Saph
2009-04-25, 08:34 PM
Complete Champion - as mentioned. There's some okay stuff in there, but so much is terribly-thought-out that I find it easiest to just ban the book and spare myself the headaches.

Dungeon Master's Guide II - So forgettable that I still can't remember what was in it.

Weapons of Legacy - A cool idea, with the worst mechanics I've ever seen in 3.5. They make Shadowcasters and Truenamers look overpowered. Legacy weapons are weapons that can, with a lot of work, bond with a wielder . . . and in exchange you take a permanent penalty to BAB, saves, and HP. I have no clue how the developers could have thought this was a good plan.

- Saph

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 08:39 PM
Don't avoid any books. All of them have enough good material to be of use. Yes, even Weapons of Legacy provided you found your own Legacies (or better yet, have DM make them for you - that Mage Hunter Glove, for example, is amazing).

That said, I sort of agree with you, although I actually use Complete Champion a lot and most of its material is pretty ok with few cave-ats. Knowledge Devotion is something I make extensive use of as a way for knowledgable types to gain advantages in combat, and many of the other devotions are handy too. Then there's Ordained Champion, which is a kickass class, and Fist of the Forests which is ok once you just remember to state that multiple abilities named "AC bonus" overlap and thus you can't get both, Wis & Con to AC.

And in spite of the stupid crap in the book, Complete Psionic is pretty much a must-have for Psionics-users as it's the only extensive addition to the system from within WoTC - some rules offered there are crap, but it has some fine classes (Anarchic Initiate, Soulbow, Ardent, even Illumine Soul) and all the powers are mostly usable (let's not get into Synchronicity here), and many feats, especially Metapsionic ones, are a great addition to the system. Just ignore all the dumb rewrites (like Astral Construct...*eww*) and crappy classes (god, Divine Mind & Lurk... Oh, and half the PrCs) it's a quality book.

Tome of Magic has Binders so it can't be that bad. Binders just happen to be awesome enough for the rest of the book. And some Wiz/Sorc spells in the Truenamer-section are interesting.


I'd really go with most of the auxillary Monster Manuals. They tend to be poorly balanced (OH HAY, FLESHRAKER!) and mostly redundant. MMII is the worst balance-wise, but has many iconic monsters that failed to make it to MMI and MMIII is sorta ok. IV and V are just...

Oh, and Elder Evils is bleh. It's basically a bunch of campaign stubs that aren't even especially developed. Dungeon Master's Guide II has really practically nothing worthwhile crunchwise (item templates are cool and all, but...) and is extremely redundant as far as DMing advice goes. Verdict: Don't bother.

Rules Compendium is sorta handy, but completely redundant outside the online-published AMF rulings and you'd probably get a clearer answer by asking something like our very own Simple Questions Q&A, than reading the said book.


That's my take. Above books are the ones I'd get dead last. You really don't get much for your money out of them. The ones sonofzeal listed may have large problems, but they also have quality content. The above (outside Monster Manuals) just really don't.

Nai_Calus
2009-04-25, 08:39 PM
I'll second Complete Champion. The entire thing is stupid and terrible, both the fluff and the mechanical bits.

This is the book that claims that Corellon Larethian's 3.5 favoured weapon is the bow. Not even a TYPE of bow, just 'bow' in general. And uh, guys. It's Longsword. Did you not even look in the PHB when you wrote this thing.

Just. Seriously. Come on.

Deities and Demigods is pointless, especially for 3.5, since the divine rules are in the SRD, and the art is largely horrific. (Speaking of Corellon Larethian...)

Myrmex
2009-04-25, 08:42 PM
You can't hate one of the core books!

I hate the PHB.

The only class in the PHB that should exist is the Bard. And maybe the rogue. Everything else is either hideously overpowered or slightly better than an NPC.

Clerics are ok without metamagic abuse.

Starscream
2009-04-25, 08:58 PM
My votes:

DMG 2 - pretty much pointless. Very little to add other than general advice you could get from anyone who has DMed before.

MMIV - 5 was a bit better.

Magic of Incarnum - I actually like this book, but there is so much new to learn for it. If multiple people in your party want to use Incarnum, it might be worth the effort, but otherwise no. Compare to Psionics, which can easily be integrated into any campaign.

Book of Vile Darkness - I'd include this as a "For DMs ONLY" book. There's plenty of fun stuff to flesh out a villain, but players will find the most broken stuff imaginable.

Heroes of Battle - I don't hate this one, but everything in it falls into one of two categories - "Stuff I'll never use" and "No duh"

Skaroq
2009-04-25, 08:58 PM
{Scrubbed}

Myrmex
2009-04-25, 09:00 PM
{Scrubbed}

Thanks for the name calling and personal attacks. I appreciate it.

InaVegt
2009-04-25, 09:01 PM
And InaVegt, how could you hate the frickin' FIRST MONSTER MANUAL?! It's one of the core books! You can't hate one of the core books!

I don't hate it.

It's still a waste of money, there's like 10 monsters from the MM1 missing from the SRD.

10 monsters are not worth 35 Euros, especially not when there is plenty good stuff available for free. (Vorpal Tribble has some of the best stuff ever, and he doesn't ask money for any of those AFAIK)

newbDM
2009-04-25, 09:04 PM
Heroes of Battle - I don't hate this one, but everything in it falls into one of two categories - "Stuff I'll never use" and "No duh"

Not if you want to run a military style adventure/campaign.



Thanks for the name calling and personal attacks. I appreciate it.

He was being sarcastic. You know, humor and "Ha ha".

Foryn Gilnith
2009-04-25, 09:05 PM
Tome of Magic (Binders are awesome but desperately needed a better mechanic, and the rest is just sad)

It sucks, yes. But is it worth the handful of dollars I paid for it? Most definitely yes. For the cost you could get it at, it's easily worth the money. Buying it new, for the full $30 or so...I pity you.

DMG2 and Heroes of Battle were similarly mediocre, but ok. Interesting. Not enough to make me buy them, though.



Oh, and Elder Evils is bleh. It's basically a bunch of campaign stubs that aren't even especially developed.

Seconded.


Thanks for the name calling and personal attacks. I appreciate it.

Assuming that this is satirical, just like the post it responded to was...
Hilarious. I'd give you a cookie, but I'm not sure we do that here.

sonofzeal
2009-04-25, 09:06 PM
I'm going to speak up in defense of the Tome of Magic. Or part of it anyway. Non-Binder bits, I agree on, but the Binder is decently balanced, unique, and quite a bit of fun to play. The rest of the book can go, but Binders are almost worth the cost of the book by themselves.
Oh, I've played a Binder and loved it. He was quite effective without being broken, made a huge impression, and was generally pretty darn fun. I bound Buer for out-of-combat healing, and Karsis for dispelling magical traps. I also had a tendancy to summon unicorns out of thin air (from the fey feat, not the summoning vestige).

My criticism is not on those lines, it's just that the class mechanics seem really out of place in D&D, and the whole Binding check thing is weird and counterintuitive and doesn't even really do much. You also need several feats and encyclopedic knowledge of the vestiges if you're going to play it as the sort of flexible adaptive class I think it was meant to be. I enjoyed playing it, but I do think it needed a bit of tightening up. And I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a purchase, just for one decent class. Better to get Magic of Incarnum.

RavKal
2009-04-25, 09:09 PM
I hate the PHB.

The only class in the PHB that should exist is the Bard. And maybe the rogue. Everything else is either hideously overpowered or slightly better than an NPC.

Clerics are ok without metamagic abuse.

This...I'm not even touching this.

I personally would avoid the environment books (e.g. Frostburn) unless you know you're running a campaign on them. Otherwise they're basically useless, or at best rarely used.

MisterSaturnine
2009-04-25, 09:31 PM
Another vote in favor of the Tome of Magic. Binders are awesome, and Shadowcasters only need a slight bit of tweaking to be effective. Either make mysteries per encounter or use the fixes proposed by the writer (you can find them with a google search).

Truenamer, though...yeah.

Froogleyboy
2009-04-25, 09:50 PM
I hate the PHB.

The only class in the PHB that should exist is the Bard. And maybe the rogue. Everything else is either hideously overpowered or slightly better than an NPC.

Clerics are ok without metamagic abuse.

*holds D20 outstretched*
THE POWER OF GYGAX COMPELS YOU

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-25, 09:51 PM
There was an Eberron book that contained no game mechanics whatsoever, I'm not sure what it was called but there was an entire 4 ft. shelf of them at 1/2 price books within a few months of its release.

Skaroq
2009-04-25, 09:55 PM
He was being sarcastic. You know, humor and "Ha ha".

No, of course not! Also, I think that the D20 system should switch to using d6s only and that the first D&D movie was a masterpiece. I wasn't joking at all.

kjones
2009-04-25, 10:00 PM
Complete Champion isn't that bad. Sure, there's some broken stuff, but there's some diamonds in the rough. (Holy Warrior ACF for Paladin, for example... always liked that one.)

But DMG II is pretty useless. For an experienced DM, it's nothing you don't know already. For an inexperienced DM... well, experience doesn't come from books.

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 10:00 PM
No, of course not! Also, I think that the D20 system should switch to using d6s only and that the first D&D movie was a masterpiece. I wasn't joking at all.

All the more reason to crucify you. Prepare for your cruci...fiction? ...fixation? ...ficacition? ...whatever, point being you will be crucified!

Skaroq
2009-04-25, 10:06 PM
All the more reason to crucify you. Prepare for your cruci...fiction? ...fixation? ...ficacition? ...whatever, point being you will be crucified!

Woohoo! Time to break out the Life of Brian references!

Ravens_cry
2009-04-25, 10:12 PM
No, of course not! Also, I think that the D20 system should switch to using d6s only and that the first D&D movie was a masterpiece. I wasn't joking at all.
Just remember kids, folks can't hear tone of voice on the Internet.:smallamused:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-25, 10:23 PM
Just remember kids, folks can't hear tone of voice on the Internet.:smallamused:
I dunno, maybe he's just not shouting loudly enough as he types - the tubes have terrible acoustics!

Myrmex
2009-04-25, 10:25 PM
Elder Evils isn't such a bad book. Better than Exemplars of Evil, by a lot. Though the Much Kill (ship run by pseudo-natural goblinoids) is a pretty cool idea.

Worira
2009-04-25, 10:26 PM
Actually, tubes have great acoustics.

AslanCross
2009-04-25, 10:26 PM
Complete Champion isn't that bad, there's some stuff in it that are pretty good.

I also like Monster Manual V. III was the best, IV was subpar (I liked the Dragonspawn, but it contained too much of the hated laziness-inspired "monsters with class levels"), and I thought II had a lot of weirdness in it which the 3.5 errata did not fix.

Draz74
2009-04-25, 10:31 PM
Tome of Magic has Binders so it can't be that bad. Binders just happen to be awesome enough for the rest of the book. And some Wiz/Sorc spells in the Truenamer-section are interesting.

The Shadow Magic Equipment section is pretty cool too, and the Shadow Magic Monsters section isn't terrible. (I actually don't like the Shadowcaster much, even with fixes, but I refer to these parts of the Shadow Magic section often.)

All that aside, we're still missing the main reason I figured Tome of Magic was worth buying: just the concept of playing around with the D&D magic system, being willing to adopt something other than Vancian magic. Ideas about how to do so. True, they didn't work so well ... but hey, you don't know what works until you know what doesn't work.

Flickerdart
2009-04-25, 10:32 PM
Truenamer, though...yeah.
Hye, CharOp made them work. Sure, it needs UA and they're still pretty bad, but the flavour, the flavour!

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-25, 10:40 PM
Hye, CharOp made them work. Sure, it needs UA and they're still pretty bad, but the flavour, the flavour!

Tastes like chicken.

Exploding zombie chickens under the thrall of their commoner overlord.

thorgrim29
2009-04-25, 10:41 PM
Just remember kids, folks can't hear tone of voice on the Internet.:smallamused:

And that's why we should all use the sarcasm tags. Books? I'll have to second the environmental books at full price, but they're full of fun stuff, so at discount price they're ok. Frostburn gets a pass only because of one spell, glacier or something. There's very few things as fun as killing things by dropping a glacier on them.

Chronos
2009-04-26, 12:12 AM
Quoth Eldariel:
And in spite of the stupid crap in the book, Complete Psionic is pretty much a must-have for Psionics-users as it's the only extensive addition to the system from within WoTCYou can get a lot more material of significantly higher quality from the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) articles online. A lot of it is 3.0, but even so, I'd rather go through the work of updating them to 3.5 than try to get some use out of Lurks and Divine Minds.

Oh, and Complete Psionic also has the Practiced Manifester feat in it. Let me spoil it for you: It's just like Practiced Spellcaster, except for psionics. There, now you have the sum entirety of worthwhile material from CPsi; no need to buy it.

Harperfan7
2009-04-26, 12:17 AM
If I could go back in time, I would have just sticked with core.

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-26, 12:19 AM
Stuck, even!

Tetsubo 57
2009-04-26, 12:22 AM
DMG II, hands down the worst 3.5 book I ever bought. I kept it as part of my collection. But I don't expect to *ever* open it again. Useless.

I never bought Weapons of Legacy, but the reviews and comments have not been favorable. Which is a real pity. The *idea* is great. The execution is the true failure.

I found enough to use in the -Complete...- books to not hate any of them.

Tome of Magic is again a great idea that wasn't done well.

The Serpent Kingdom (?) FR book. It just failed to meet any of my expectations. Not quite as useless as the DMG II, but close.

Magic of Incarnum is just chock full of awesome.

monty
2009-04-26, 12:24 AM
The Serpent Kingdom (?) FR book. It just failed to meet any of my expectations. Not quite as useless as the DMG II, but close.

But without that, how will you make Pun-Pun?

Zeta Kai
2009-04-26, 12:33 AM
But without that, how will you make Pun-Pun?

Ding! This conversation has come around to Pun-Pun! We can stop now. :smallbiggrin:

Also, I like the DMG2, if for no other reason than I love the town of Saltmarsh. It's exactly what a campaign town should be, & I've found nothing to outdo it yet.

Thurbane
2009-04-26, 12:38 AM
I know this is a thread for books to avoid but...damn! I just never got the hatred for the DMG II. I think people's main beef is that is wasn't packed full of new crunch...there's a certain subset of players (and DMs) out there that obviously believe that unless a book has it's quota of new feats and PrCs that can be incorporated into builds, it's just not worth having...

Even so, the NPC traits, the magic locations, the chapter on Saltmarsh...all of these have been great for my game. Obviously, my mileage must vary. :smallfrown:

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-26, 01:51 AM
I didn't think too much of the DMG 2 due to how most of the information was obvious fluff which I didn't need spelling out (and the authour seemed to think that it's possible to cast Disguise Self on other people somehow). I ban the Books of Exhaulted Deeds and Vile Darkness from my games because the fluff is bad enough to give me a headache, and I agree that the core books are a waste of money because they are mostly available for free online (admittedly, I only ever play online, so those are essential for people without internet access).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 02:39 AM
My aunt lives out in the sticks, she keeps chickens and has a few cows. Every morning when she lets the chickens out, they run out to where the cows have been pooping all night and scratch around in it looking for little kernels of corn. Some 3.5 books are like that: they sell you a steaming pile of crap that you have to dig through to find a few kernels of usable character options.

The Complete Psionic is like that, there are enough usable feats to count on one hand, and the only usable prestige class was released online (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) to make you think the rest of the book would be better than it is. Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre when combined with Boost Construct can give you a minion with an extra Menu B ability at level 1, and it gets even better with Personal Construct (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a). With Overchannel you can take Metapower for Persistent (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) Timeless Body, just be sure you use Vigor first because you'll be immune to healing. Practiced Manifester was a much-needed addition that could (should) have just been houseruled in anyway. Other than those, the book just tries to make useful powers weaker (Energy Stun, Astral Construct) even though their own primary source rules would cause the XPH and official SRD (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) versions to override the 'update' that everyone loves to ignore. +1 on including CP in the books that aren't worth buying.

Adumbration
2009-04-26, 04:40 AM
Quoth Eldariel:You can get a lot more material of significantly higher quality from the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) articles online. A lot of it is 3.0, but even so, I'd rather go through the work of updating them to 3.5 than try to get some use out of Lurks and Divine Minds.

Oh, and Complete Psionic also has the Practiced Manifester feat in it. Let me spoil it for you: It's just like Practiced Spellcaster, except for psionics. There, now you have the sum entirety of worthwhile material from CPsi; no need to buy it.

- Soulbow
- Anarchic Initiate (after fixing the requirement thingie)
- Illithid heritage feats
- Soulbow
- Additional psionic items
- Additional powers
- Soulbow
- Zerth Cenobite
- Soulbow

There. Plenty of good things in Complete Psionic.

Faulty
2009-04-26, 06:11 AM
- Soulbow
- Anarchic Initiate (after fixing the requirement thingie)
- Illithid heritage feats
- Soulbow
- Additional psionic items
- Additional powers
- Soulbow
- Zerth Cenobite
- Soulbow

There. Plenty of good things in Complete Psionic.

But Soulbow is online.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-26, 06:37 AM
Oh, let's not forget Synchronicity power from CPsi :) My favourite action economy breaker.

4pp for an extra standard action (linked synchronicity) is just too sweet to pass up. add 6pp to add one more on top of that with quickened linked synchronicity.

Yeah, it's like Celerity except psionic and spammable.

Edit: combined with Earth Power, you can cast Linked Synchronicity for 2pp (expend psionic focus to use Earth Power to reduce Synchronicity to 0pp per casting, meaning Linked metapower would now cost 1pp + 1pp for manifesting the second Synchronicity).

Samb
2009-04-26, 08:33 AM
- Soulbow
- Anarchic Initiate (after fixing the requirement thingie)
- Illithid heritage feats
- Soulbow
- Additional psionic items
- Additional powers
- Soulbow
- Zerth Cenobite
- Soulbow

There. Plenty of good things in Complete Psionic.

Umm there's also linked power, synad, metapower (favorite power+metapsionic can be free!), decent racial feats, mantles and real ways to deal with undead.

Synad is like my favorite race, with an built in schism that doesn't -6 ML. The nerf AC since we always assumed you could only have one construct to start with. Have you ever been hit by a fully augmented hostile empatheic transfer? You'll think it is overpowered when you suddenly lose 90hp and that psiwarrior you almost had dead is alive and well. Trust me it sucks.

Really, what would I do without linked power?

All my psiwarrior and wilders have the mantled variant, because getting metamorphsis as early as possible is really good.

At first blush, ComPsi didn't impress me but on closer read it rocks. I never create a character with out it now.

I didn't like complete psionics when I first read it but now I love it.

Samb
2009-04-26, 08:57 AM
And for the person that said practiced manifested is the only good thing in ComPsi you need to consider that it applies when you use schism as well. Instead of -6 ML it is only -2 ML. Practiced manifested is a must for all psi users simplily for that fact.

Oh and synchronicity is one reason why ComPsi makes players think: what was Burce Cordell smoking? The crap you can do with this is just amazing. Improved metapsionics and metapower and just linking them and you have an extra action every turn for free. I use a torc instead of earth sense since I need my focus for the metapsionics. If there is a reason to avoid CPsi, it should be because it is too good not the other way around.

HailDiscordia
2009-04-26, 11:44 AM
I agree with those of you who like the DMGII. It's definitely unlike other books because of the lack of feats, classes, etc...But the stuff about how to be a better DM and how to run campaigns can be pretty useful if you are new to the game. Especially when so many people seem to have issues with games not lasting or players getting out of control and ruining things. Plus, the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh was the first module I ever played, so I have quite a soft spot for the seedy place.

Of all the Complete's I think that Adventurer is the best. Cool prestige classes, nice feats, interesting fluff.

The Complete Champion, however, I can not endorse. I don't think I've ever found something in there that I actually like and see as put together well.

Tetsubo 57
2009-04-26, 11:47 AM
I agree with those of you who like the DMGII. It's definitely unlike other books because of the lack of feats, classes, etc...But the stuff about how to be a better DM and how to run campaigns can be pretty useful if you are new to the game. Especially when so many people seem to have issues with games not lasting or players getting out of control and ruining things. Plus, the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh was the first module I ever played, so I have quite a soft spot for the seedy place.

Of all the Complete's I think that Adventurer is the best. Cool prestige classes, nice feats, interesting fluff.

The Complete Champion, however, I can not endorse. I don't think I've ever found something in there that I actually like and see as put together well.

Well, I've been gaming since 1978, so maybe the DMG II wasn't aimed at me. :)

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-26, 11:56 AM
Ding! This conversation has come around to Pun-Pun! We can stop now. :smallbiggrin:But Godwin's Law only applies when one brings up Hitle-

I see what you did there! :smalltongue:

InaVegt
2009-04-26, 12:02 PM
But Godwin's Law only applies when one brings up Hitle-

I see what you did there! :smalltongue:

Godwin's DnD law: As an online discussion about dungeons and dragons gets longer, the probability of someone mentioning pun-pun approaches one, after which the thread degrades to off topic comments about Godwin's DnD law.

HailDiscordia
2009-04-26, 12:14 PM
Well, I've been gaming since 1978, so maybe the DMG II wasn't aimed at me. :)

I've been playing since the late 80's, so I don't think it was aimed at me either but I think a lot of people could benefit from it. Many players seem to forget (or maybe never knew) that there is a whole non-mechanical aspect to D&D. Running a table, managing players, organizing a game each week (or two weeks or whenever) are tough things to do. And not easy to pick up right away, which seems to doom a lot of games. I was lucky, I had a friends older brother (yes, almost as cliched as adventurers meeting in an inn) to show me the ropes but a lot don't.

alchemyprime
2009-04-26, 12:26 PM
Just remember kids, folks can't hear tone of voice on the Internet.:smallamused:

And this is why I advocate the use of a sarcastic color.

One of the few times I don't use that to be sarcastic.

As for books I don't suggest... I second Elder Evils. And also MMIV. MMV was good though.

Oh! A third party book to avoid: Plot and Poison from Green Ronin. Get it or get Drow of the Underdark. Don't do both unless you want a very drow heavy campaign.

(switching gears here)

And I normally love Green Ronin stuff. If you can find it, get the Advanced Bestiary. It gives your monster books about 700x the mileage, as a book of 200+ templates should! I think the best monster I made for an end boss was a tie between the Half Drow Prismatic (both AB) Remade (Dragon 352) Ancient Black Dragon and the Amalgam template version of Cryonax and Orcus (Cryorcus!)

Yeah. Those were nuts. Advanced Bestiary was a book full of win! Got it on sale for $5!

monty
2009-04-26, 12:46 PM
I agree that the core books are a waste of money because they are mostly available for free online (admittedly, I only ever play online, so those are essential for people without internet access).

Even with Internet, it's just a lot easier sometimes. Looking back, buying the DMG was probably a waste of money, and I didn't bother with the MM because I could just copy the stats for the handful of monsters that aren't in the SRD from elsewhere. But having an actual copy of the PHB to pass around is just so much less complicated than a laptop. You don't have to load anything, it's easier to read, and it won't break if someone drops it. Plus, when I'm DMing, that means I can leave all my notes and stuff on the screen without worrying about anyone peeking.


And this is why I advocate the use of a sarcastic color.

One of the few times I don't use that to be sarcastic.

I'd prefer the sarcastic font (http://glennmcanally.com/sarcastic/), if there was a way to get it to work on the forums.

Zaq
2009-04-26, 03:26 PM
I'm afraid I must also throw in my lot with the hatred of DMG2. There's nothing in it that I could ever use.

Weapons of Legacy is the only WotC book I ban outright in games I run. The mechanics are a headache at best, and this is speaking as someone who loves alternative systems, like Incarnum or Tome of Magic.

Exemplars of Evil has a couple fun feats and ACFs, but not enough to justify the purchase of a book. I can't see myself ever using any of the villains presented therein. At least Elder Evils is an entertaining read.

While it's head and shoulders above the other stuff I've mentioned here, Book of Exalted Deeds tends to be more problematic than it's worth. There's a handful of decent stuff in it, but oh so much crap as well, both fluff and crunch. Book of Vile Darkness is slightly better, but still pretty dicey overall, and as others have mentioned, very much a "DM-only" book even if you're running an evil campaign.

I've never found Cityscape useful or especially interesting. I can see where it would be useful if you were actively running a city campaign, but there's almost nothing in it that translates well to a general campaign. At least the other major scenario books (like Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stormwrack) have some stuff that's easily adaptable to a general campaign, but Cityscape hardly has anything of the sort. Most of the good stuff is found in the web enhancement anyway, which you can get for free.

Oriental Adventures is just insultingly bad. James Wyatt should be ashamed of himself.

The Miniatures Handbook has very little of interest. It does have the Healer (oh goodie, possibly the worst 9th level spellcaster in the game!) and the Marshal (a fun one or two level dip, but amazingly boring to play. I get bored with the Marshal NPCs I make, let alone actual characters), but... yeah.

Zhalath
2009-04-26, 09:17 PM
I continue the avoidance trend for DMG II, as most of the material I could get for free, on the internet, and with better quality (especially the roleplaying theory).
Also, Complete Champion continues to be total nonsense and seems like a "have a book" book, not for any purpose.
Drow of the Underdark is almost all fluff, and not really good fluff. The rules are not usable by players (except for all you evil, female drow clerics of Lolth and all that), and the monsters are just stupid, as well as the whole thing being poorly designed (because the vril don't exist).
Magic of Incarnum is just flat out terrible. The powers suck, they have little to no increase in power, resulting in an inverse relationship between power level and character level, and the rules are so confusing, including all the new terms, make it just a pain. At least it was only $4.
All the Monster Manuals past III seem like a waste, like they wanted to set a world record for "most monster books" rather than actually write good material. The new stat blocks are a pain to read, especially if you want to play the race (which most of them you can't, because they hate you).
I second Miniatures Handbook, because it's mostly about the miniature game. I mean, I've heard of returning to one's roots, but this is ridiculous. The Marshal needs more stuff, Favored Soul is in the superior CD, Warmage is meh, and the Healer is absolutely broken.

I personally like Complete Psionic, mostly because the ardent is one of my favorite classes (cleric+psionics=WIN for me).
I liked ToM, for the Binder. Love the Binder. Not only does the system present so much roleplaying opportunity, but it spawned one of my groups' most favorite NPC ever: Keith, the Half-Orc Binder with twinked 18 Charisma. It was awesome. The Shadowcaster may be underpowered, and the Truespeak system may be horribly broken, but having a new magic system that actually works makes up for it.
I thought BoED was nice, though not great. Some of the ideas are a tad extreme, but it's not that bad in my opinion (Vow of Poverty: better than it sounds).

And to anyone who says that Core Rulebooks suck because you can find them online: first, books don't crash, books don't need to be charged, and if someone throws your book out a window, you won't freak out as much as a computer; second, without print editions, there would be no online editions.

And that's my rant. Owning almost every book I talked about, I can say I know what I'm talking about. Then again, this is the internet, where anything can happen, everything's a lie, and everything is something else (three guesses, and the first two don't count).

Eldariel
2009-04-26, 09:27 PM
Drow of the Underdark is almost all fluff, and not really good fluff. The rules are not usable by players (except for all you evil, female drow clerics of Lolth and all that), and the monsters are just stupid, as well as the whole thing being poorly designed (because the vril don't exist).

Magic of Incarnum is just flat out terrible. The powers suck, they have little to no increase in power, resulting in an inverse relationship between power level and character level, and the rules are so confusing, including all the new terms, make it just a pain. At least it was only $4.

I've found an incredible amount of use in these two books - it's amazing how different experiences people have. Magic of Incarnum has served me well over multiple characters and while it is indeed a tad frontloaded, the increasing essentia capacity and the improved combinations you can pull off on higher levels (not to mention, better chakra binds) make especially Totemist solid from 1 to 20, and Incarnate isn't all that bad either (although his shtick is skillmonkeying, rather than kicking ass). Totemist 20 outdoes core non-casters rather handily, although it of course loses out to the casters (it's level 20, we're talking about a non-caster, of course he loses...). But yeah, the book is actually much better in practice than it looks on paper - at least that's my experience. It's surprisingly well-balanced and pretty versatile.

As far as Drow of the Underdark goes, many of the alternative class features I've found awesome for anyone as long as you show the finger to the Drow-restriction. Same with the feats - we're playing a no-magic campaign with a friend right now, and we've both got multiple feats from the book. Stuff like Imperious Command, Master of Poisons, Hand Crossbow Focus & co. are really, really handy. And it's an awesome means to spice up your opposition if you use a lot of Drow. But mostly I'd allow the crunch for PC use simply because it's too awesome to pass up on.

Ellye
2009-04-26, 09:39 PM
Oh, and Elder Evils is bleh. It's basically a bunch of campaign stubs that aren't even especially developed. I actually found this book to be rather interesting. Not so useful, but interesting and fun, in my opinion.

Myrmex
2009-04-26, 10:00 PM
With Overchannel you can take Metapower for Persistent (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) Timeless Body, just be sure you use Vigor first because you'll be immune to healing.

You'll also, after you cast Timeless Body, be immune to HP damage and, ironically, that Vigor you just cast. Permanent Timeless Body sounds like a good idea, until you realize that you're going to have to walk everywhere.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 10:17 PM
Oh and synchronicity is one reason why ComPsi makes players think: what was Burce Cordell smoking? The crap you can do with this is just amazing. Improved metapsionics and metapower and just linking them and you have an extra action every turn for free. I use a torc instead of earth sense since I need my focus for the metapsionics. If there is a reason to avoid CPsi, it should be because it is too good not the other way around.
Synchronicity appeared in Races of Destiny two years prior to the release of Complete Psionic. Affinity Field (self = psicrystal) plus Synchronicity with Share Powers is possible with just RoD and XPH. Linked Power is nice, but one or two overpowered tricks will not redeem a poorly written book.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 10:20 PM
You'll also, after you cast Timeless Body, be immune to HP damage and, ironically, that Vigor you just cast. Permanent Timeless Body sounds like a good idea, until you realize that you're going to have to walk everywhere.

Vigor is for the damage Overchannel causes, because you won't be able to heal it once Timeless Body is in effect. Plus horses are cheap, and you can still walk through openings such as a Gate spell or climbing inside a Bag of Holding so someone else can carry it with them when they teleport.

Myrmex
2009-04-26, 10:34 PM
Vigor is for the damage Overchannel causes, because you won't be able to heal it once Timeless Body is in effect. Plus horses are cheap, and you can still walk through openings such as a Gate spell or climbing inside a Bag of Holding so someone else can carry it with them when they teleport.

Ah, I see.

I guess you could ride a flying horse or something everywhere, too. Not being able to act in surprise rounds will be rough. There are so many sweet buffs that you give up to be invulnerable.

JoshuaZ
2009-04-27, 12:25 AM
Oh, and Complete Psionic also has the Practiced Manifester feat in it. Let me spoil it for you: It's just like Practiced Spellcaster, except for psionics. There, now you have the sum entirety of worthwhile material from CPsi; no need to buy it.

That's not even worth it because they never explained whether you get bonus power points from the increase in manifester level. They just translated the feat over without thinking about how the mechanical differences might impact it.


Now to other things:

I disagree with the negative attitude about Tome of Magic. Truenaming is broken and Shadowmagic is both weak and has fluff that doesn't fit with the mechanics at all. But the binder is one of the best classes out there. If I were going to rewrite 3.5 I'd make it a core class. It has amazing flavor and the fluff and crunch go so well together.

A real waste is BoVD. It is full of either terribly weak stuff (almost all the PrCs are too weak) or terribly overpowered stuff. Mind Rape is ridiculous as written (if it has an xp cost or something it might make some sense). And other spells in there are poorly written with the mechanics not explained well at all. And that's even before we get to the fact that its understanding of "evil" amounts to things that make people in modern America uncomfortable.

Faulty
2009-04-27, 01:16 AM
And that's even before we get to the fact that its understanding of "evil" amounts to things that make people in modern America uncomfortable.

I like how drug use is described as, I think, "unsavoury". That made me laugh, given the rather pleasent and intelligent nature of a few drug users I know. I also love how the BoED has stuff like Vow of Chastity and Vow of Abstinance and stuff, in a lot of ways it's basically just a very serious interpretation of Judeo-Christianity applied to D&D. I'm seriously considering writing a Vow of Hedonism to make up for it.

Seffbasilisk
2009-04-27, 01:24 AM
BoEF.

Wait, that's 3.0 third-party.

Still...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-27, 01:27 AM
BoEF.

Wait, that's 3.0 third-party.

Still...Actually, it's pretty good. Not necessarily for mechanics, though there are some gems, but because it's fluff on racial family life is far better than anything WotC ever wrote.

And Amesoeurs? Check out Talya's Sunite(no link, sorry, search the boards). Vow of Nudity, among other things.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-27, 01:40 AM
Actually, it's pretty good. Not necessarily for mechanics, though there are some gems, but because it's fluff on racial family life is far better than anything WotC ever wrote.

And Amesoeurs? Check out Talya's Sunite(no link, sorry, search the boards). Vow of Nudity, among other things.

I have to second that. If you get past the initial silliness of some things, there are some very good non-sexual feats and extremely good fluff information regarding family behavior of races.

Not to forget rules for pregnancies and children. (If you think a Mama Bear is dangerous, never get near a pregnant orc)

Faulty
2009-04-27, 01:40 AM
I saw the Vow of Nudity, I quite liked that one. Also, that was with the Heartwarder class, which I actually rewrote, because I adore love and pleasure Goddesses. :smallbiggrin: Sharess is a favorite of mine, too.

EDIT: BoEF looks sorta interesting, actually.

Samb
2009-04-27, 10:23 AM
Synchronicity appeared in Races of Destiny two years prior to the release of Complete Psionic. Affinity Field (self = psicrystal) plus Synchronicity with Share Powers is possible with just RoD and XPH. Linked Power is nice, but one or two overpowered tricks will not redeem a poorly written book.

Umm how much "gamebreaking" did need? As far I can see all books have stuff that isn't so good, base classes that just plain suck, feats no one would take another look at. CPsi has a lot of garbage but no more than any other book. How much gems must be found for this to just be a standard book? Honestly I'm wondering if psionics users were alienated by it for the erratas and just dissmiss all the other cool stuff in it.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-04-27, 06:00 PM
Oh, and Complete Psionic also has the Practiced Manifester feat in it. Let me spoil it for you: It's just like Practiced Spellcaster, except for psionics. There, now you have the sum entirety of worthwhile material from CPsi; no need to buy it.

Actually, I found the Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) to be great, if only for making Soulknives playable. 'Course, that's free online, so back to not buying CP.

I've found Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils, though interesting in bits, to not be worth the price (okay, EoE was, but that's only because I picked it up for six bucks on Amazon).

Complete Psionic, as mentioned, is pretty worthless. I'd just avoid Complete Champion. There's some interesting/useable stuff, but there's a lot more dreck, and so much controversy over the stuff that I find it just pays to avoid it.

MM IV is pretty bad. Way to many X plus class levels, as previous people mentioned. MM II is actually pretty fun/interesting, but is downright bizarre most of the time, both in fluff and rules.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-28, 02:23 AM
I like how drug use is described as, I think, "unsavoury". That made me laugh, given the rather pleasent and intelligent nature of a few drug users I know. I also love how the BoED has stuff like Vow of Chastity and Vow of Abstinance and stuff, in a lot of ways it's basically just a very serious interpretation of Judeo-Christianity applied to D&D. I'm seriously considering writing a Vow of Hedonism to make up for it.

Oh, don't get me started on the BoED. Capital-g Good deserves a much better book than that. The BoED is full of silly and poorly thought-out moral absolutism, shockingly weak crunch (a feat for +1 on one roll per day? Really?) and frequently falls into the ludicrous idea that good is evil, except backwards. I mean, Ravages? Poisons made out of raw goodness and happiness that only affect evil people? What were they thinking?

sonofzeal
2009-04-28, 02:59 AM
Oh, don't get me started on the BoED. Capital-g Good deserves a much better book than that. The BoED is full of silly and poorly thought-out moral absolutism, shockingly weak crunch (a feat for +1 on one roll per day? Really?) and frequently falls into the ludicrous idea that good is evil, except backwards. I mean, Ravages? Poisons made out of raw goodness and happiness that only affect evil people? What were they thinking?
Eh, I just try to forget the whole "ravages" thing. At least they had the sense to explicitly state that Sneak Attack isn't at allevil, paving the way to a few halfway-playable Rogue/Paladin builds. And the rest of the book is moderately useful. The feat you mention is almost explicitly an "entry feat", a deliberately sub-par choice that unlocks potentially more powerful PrC options. For example, "Knight of the Stars" gets you into the Champion of Gwynharwyf PrC, which is a heavy upgrade over pure Barbarian and more than worth the feat investment.

Dixieboy
2009-04-28, 04:18 AM
I like how drug use is described as, I think, "unsavoury". That made me laugh, given the rather pleasent and intelligent nature of a few drug users I know. I also love how the BoED has stuff like Vow of Chastity and Vow of Abstinance and stuff, in a lot of ways it's basically just a very serious interpretation of Judeo-Christianity applied to D&D. I'm seriously considering writing a Vow of Hedonism to make up for it.

The book of Erotic fantasy has a sex powered mage >>

Oh yea, also. Given the examples of drugs given in BoVD i say calling it "unsavory" is completely justified.
Distilled pain anyone?

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-28, 04:45 AM
Eh, I just try to forget the whole "ravages" thing. At least they had the sense to explicitly state that Sneak Attack isn't at allevil, paving the way to a few halfway-playable Rogue/Paladin builds. And the rest of the book is moderately useful. The feat you mention is almost explicitly an "entry feat", a deliberately sub-par choice that unlocks potentially more powerful PrC options. For example, "Knight of the Stars" gets you into the Champion of Gwynharwyf PrC, which is a heavy upgrade over pure Barbarian and more than worth the feat investment.

I have to say, I kinda liked the Vassal of Bahamut PrC...

Drascin
2009-04-28, 05:58 AM
First of all, Complete Psionics. Worst and most lacking in content of the Completes by far (and that is no mean feat) for a group of players that was literally starved for new material? And going against all the previous fluff that people liked about it, as well? Yeah, smart move there, Wizards. From there, about the only thing I've used are Ardent, Lurk, Soulbow, and the Ebon killer. And I'm such a psionic nut I created a campaign setting where there was no divine magic, and psionics became the most important discipline, so it's not like I dislike the system. Just the book.

MMIV was the worst Monster Manual, too. III had some good stuff, as did V (which has the honor of having my favorite RPG monster to date, the Banshrae), but IV felt just like a huge amount of nothing save for the Dragonspawns.

And, finally, I also add myself to the clamor against the Book of Exalted Deeds. Ravages might be the single most headache-inducing idiocy in the whole of 3.5, but even discounting those there are a lot of little things that are plain "...what?"

Starscream
2009-04-28, 06:11 AM
BoEF looks sorta interesting, actually.

I actually read that once (why my local library had a copy I'll never know and am too embarrassed to ask). The whole concept is silly to the extreme, and I certainly could not imagine sitting around a table with my friends and trying to play a game incorporating that stuff without the awkwardness reaching terminal values.

But once you've gotten past the fact that it is the D&D equivalent of bathroom wall art, there's some halfway decent stuff in there. Not all the crunch is explicitly sexual, and most of what is could be adapted into more PG-13 territory with a bit of effort.

And the fluff is actually kind of cool. There's a chart showing which player races can breed with which other ones (no half-halflings, sorry), what pregnancy and childbirth are like in different cultures, how the different races view things like marriage and gender roles, etc.

I've never incorporated themes like this into a D&D game, and wouldn't want to, but if someone does it's nice to know there's a sourcebook that deals with it semi-sensibly and with a straight face.

Faleldir
2009-04-28, 08:37 AM
I'm seconding Sandstorm because of how little effort went into proofreading. A weapon that does 1d43 damage? A skill check that takes -5 rounds? An item that can turn into ANYTHING including artifacts? How did this get printed without anyone noticing?

Lappy9000
2009-04-28, 10:33 AM
There was an Eberron book that contained no game mechanics whatsoever, I'm not sure what it was called but there was an entire 4 ft. shelf of them at 1/2 price books within a few months of its release.It was called the Adventurer's Guide to Eberron. Ripe with spelling errors, absolutely no new art (some from Forgotten Realms and...Dragonlance?), vague Wikipedia-esque descriptions of the world (not bashing Wiki; I mean that nothing is described in-depth), all for the overly expensive price of $20.00

However, it makes an excellent paperweight/dry-erase board stand.


A weapon that does 1d43 damage?Ah, the scorpion tail whip. It deals 1d43 points of nonlethal damage + applied poison, but never occured to me that it may have been a typo until just now.

Although, it should be noted that I really, really like Sandstorm. Lots of cool monsters (Except for the Inevitable), some pretty neat items, my favorite feats of all time (Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu: Turn or Rebuke Hippos as a cleric), and some nice mini-adventures.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 10:39 AM
Ah, the scorpion tail whip. It deals 1d43 points of nonlethal damage + applied poison, but never occured to me that it may have been a typo until just now.It's like the Greataxe. If it isn't supposed to deal that much, then what's the purpose of a d43?

Lappy9000
2009-04-28, 10:41 AM
It's like the Greataxe. If it isn't supposed to deal that much, then what's the purpose of a d43?....I'm not following. How is the greataxe involved in this? :smallconfused:

monty
2009-04-28, 10:44 AM
....I'm not following. How is the greataxe involved in this? :smallconfused:

Because that's the only time anyone ever uses a d12.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-28, 10:45 AM
Well, there is this one healing spell (or power) that cures 1d12 damage, and there is the Barbarian hit dice.

But yes, no other game system I know of uses d12 (except for that one obscure one that uses only d12s).

Lappy9000
2009-04-28, 10:51 AM
Because that's the only time anyone ever uses a d12.Ah, yes. "Humor."

I get it now, thanks :D

Eldariel
2009-04-28, 10:56 AM
Because that's the only time anyone ever uses a d12.

This raises an interesting question: Is it the Barbarian that needs the d12, or the d12 that needs the Barbarian?

Faulty
2009-04-28, 11:06 AM
This raises an interesting question: Is it the Barbarian that needs the d12, or the d12 that needs the Barbarian?

How Existential. :smallbiggrin: Don't forget the Knight and Warblade's HD.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-28, 11:14 AM
How Existential. :smallbiggrin: Don't forget the Knight and Warblade's HD.

But wait? Who uses Knights and Warblades? Is there anything wrong with a pure fighter?

EDIT: Cant get the color correct :smallfurious:

Faulty
2009-04-28, 11:17 AM
PFT! Knights are where it's at. Who the Hell needs to attack when they win intiative, anyway?

Starbuck_II
2009-04-28, 11:34 AM
Ah, the scorpion tail whip. It deals 1d43 points of nonlethal damage + applied poison, but never occured to me that it may have been a typo until just now.




True, but the only way to roll that without a compute is Monkey Grip or powerful build.

1d43 is one step smaller than 1d50. Which is the same as 1d100 divided by 2.

monty
2009-04-28, 11:40 AM
How Existential. :smallbiggrin: Don't forget the Knight and Warblade's HD.

Also, undead and dragons.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-28, 11:46 AM
Actually, I found the Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) to be great, if only for making Soulknives playable. 'Course, that's free online, so back to not buying CP.

I've found Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils, though interesting in bits, to not be worth the price (okay, EoE was, but that's only because I picked it up for six bucks on Amazon).

Complete Psionic, as mentioned, is pretty worthless. I'd just avoid Complete Champion. There's some interesting/useable stuff, but there's a lot more dreck, and so much controversy over the stuff that I find it just pays to avoid it.

MM IV is pretty bad. Way to many X plus class levels, as previous people mentioned. MM II is actually pretty fun/interesting, but is downright bizarre most of the time, both in fluff and rules.


Elder Evils is actually useful if you are making an Evil-aligned Crusader. Exemplars of Evil has 2 good feats, a spell that's actually decent, and nothing but crap the rest of the way.


I'd say Elder Evils is the better of the two. But only because it's actually useful.





Personally, the worst book is either Explorer's Guide to Eberron, or Dragons of Faerun. Actually, I'll put the PGtF up here too, but only because I'm an Eberron player.

Lappy9000
2009-04-28, 01:53 PM
Personally, the worst book is either Explorer's Guide to Eberron, or Dragons of Faerun. Actually, I'll put the PGtF up here too, but only because I'm an Eberron player.Do you mean the Player's Guide to Eberron (http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/players_guide_to_eberron.jpg), the Adventure's Guide to Eberron (http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/adventurers_guide_to_eberron.jpg), or the Explorer's Handbook (http://www.dragonworld.de/catalog/images/DRW/TSU17869.jpg)?

Faulty
2009-04-28, 02:54 PM
I really like the PGtF. :smallfrown:

The Grand History of the Realms is an overglorified time line with recycled images in it. Pretty lame, I was expecting more of it.