Mithril Armor

[LibraryOgre]

Do you allow mithril armor to use the Armor proficiency of its new class, or do you require the Armor Proficiency of its old class to be known? As a semi-simulationist, I'm somewhat torn on this.

[RMS Oceanic]

I rule that if it's originally heavy armor (mithral full plate), you need heavy armor proficiency to use it properly.

[Dhavaer]

As the new class. I think customer service once said it was undefined by RAW.

[Baalthazaq]

I dunno, it would seem fairly clear to me that you count it as the new class as it "counts as one class lower" right?

That's how I'd rule it, but I understand from a "makes sense" point of view that you would need to know how to use plate mail even though it is now medium.

[RMS Oceanic]

My justification for needing heavy armor is that there's more to training in the use of armor than how heavy it is: it can also be bulky and difficult to move around in, even if it is lighter, so you definately need practise.

[Baron Corm]

If you're someone who can cast only in light armor, it makes it kind of silly for you to be required to spend that extra feat to use mithril medium armor. So just for ease of use, I would say the new type.

[WhiteHarness]

As someone who wears heavy armour on a fairly regular basis, I'd rule that it's still heavy armour, mithril or not. Simply making the armour out of a lighter material does not alter its structure or the way it moves. Aluminum full plate might be lighter, but it isn't any easier to move in than steel full plate. Proficiency in heavy armour is still necessary in order to make use of it properly.

[Pink]

Do recall that non proficiency does is double the ACP basically and make the negative to attack roles, note actually prevent usage, which I think seems a fair enough evaluation of the situation. The lighter armors will bascially have their ACP reduced to very little if anything, reflecting their ease of use. Bulkier armors will still be difficult to move around in for those not used to them and still have the penalty, however the mithril makes them light enough to potentially cast in and carry around without burdening the user.

Edit: I should really look up rules before posting first. Opinion still stands, crunch in post fixed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Look at the Ranger entry in PHB2, Soveliss is clearly wearing a Mithral Breastplate. I seriously doubt he spent an extra feat on medium armor proficiency, and I think that it was the intent of the designers for its lighter category to count for proficiency. "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light." I'd consider nonproficiency and the penalties thereof to be a limitation, which is covered under the rules for that material.

[Killer Angel]

"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light." I'd consider nonproficiency and the penalties thereof to be a limitation, which is covered under the rules for that material.

By RAW, i think that an armor in mithral affectively became a category lighter, so there's no need to have the feat for the "old" armor category.
I understand that the difficulty is not only the weight, but also the encumbrance of the structure (as said by WhiteHarness), but a barbarian with a mithril armour can use his fast movement (which should be hampered by said "encumbrance").
That said, the rules are a little unclear, and by logic no one can counter what was said by WhiteHarness. So, it's a house rule more logical ad "real-simulationist" to pretend the feat for the original armor-type...

[Starbuck_II]

Well, DMG certainly thinks it is lighter in proficiency:



As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.
Speed while wearing a suit of mithral full plate is 20 feet for Medium creatures, or 15 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of -3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds.




Elven Chain
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of -2. It is considered light armor and weighs 20 pounds.


Then the fact that every book after DMG lists it as one lighter: Race of Wild, MIC, Races of Stone, etc.

[imp_fireball]

Do you allow mithril armor to use the Armor proficiency of its new class, or do you require the Armor Proficiency of its old class to be known? As a semi-simulationist, I'm somewhat torn on this.

Mithril is a material type and does not interfere with the type of item/weapon/armor its used to make. Thus anything made of metal can technically have its material substituted for mithril. You can also non-conventional things that are made of mithril, or mithril that is even tougher than regular mithril on par with adamantine, although that's homebrew territory.

Heavy mithril armor can be regular heavy armor, although both require heavy armor proficiency. Light armor (such as the chain shirt) can also be mithril and it requires (guess what?) light armor proficiency.

Mithril really means less of an AC penalty and +2 max DEX bonus. I think that's good enough.

It doesn't change the type of object/item/armor/weapon except for some (or often all) of its material that is what it is made of, if that's what you're asking.



Elven Chain
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of -2. It is considered light armor and weighs 20 pounds.

That's where WotC screws the pooch with me. I think it should be ruled as medium armor, simply because of its mass... doesn't matter if its easier to move around in.

Also, I don't think any type of armor should ever be made of a specific type - under such a ruling, you'd have elven chain made of steel that would implode upon itself in a poof of non-logic.

If elven chain is any different from masterwork mithril chain mail you could still make it light armor but reduce the max dex and increase the AC penalties when made of different material - btw, I'd love to see how WotC attempts to wind themselves around the ruling for actually crafting elven chain (you MUST have mithril material components! No exceptions! If you don't, a dragon will eat you.).

[Tsotha-lanti]

Obviously mithral armor uses the proficiency for the category it counts as; so yes, light armor proficiency for mithral chainmail and breastplates, medium for mithral full plate.

[John Campbell]

From a game rules perspective, I'd say that the new category applies. Though the actual rule may not be exactly clear, that's the reading that seems to be uniformly assumed elsewhere.

From a simulationist perspective (and as a simulationist who's intimately familiar with armor and the wearing thereof), I'm indifferent... I can't justify it taking three feats to learn how to wear plate armor in the first place, so reducing it to two doesn't bother me.

[Ent]

When mithral armors enter the game, I end up adding a heavier-then-heavy armor type that players can seek out to make classes with heavy armor proficiency feel better about their lives.

[Chronos]

All mithril armor gives you is a -2 circumstance penalty to Profession: Lawyer checks to avoid getting sued by the Tolkien estate. Now, mithral armor, that's a different story.

[lsfreak]

That's where WotC screws the pooch with me. I think it should be ruled as medium armor, simply because of its mass... doesn't matter if its easier to move around in.

Mithral full plate is lighter than most regular medium armor. A mithral breastplate is lighter than a chain shirt.

[Philistine]

Mithril is a material type and does not interfere with the type of item/weapon/armor its used to make. Thus anything made of metal can technically have its material substituted for mithril. You can also non-conventional things that are made of mithril, or mithril that is even tougher than regular mithril on par with adamantine, although that's homebrew territory.
Mithral (not "mithril;" I don't know why it's spelled differently, but I would guess that "mithril" is copyrighted by the Tolkien estate) is a special, lightweight metal with specific properties described in the DMG (and also in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral)). It's easier to discuss things when everyone is using the same terms to refer to the same things. :smallamused:


Heavy mithril armor can be regular heavy armor, although both require heavy armor proficiency. Light armor (such as the chain shirt) can also be mithril and it requires (guess what?) light armor proficiency.
The rules state otherwise in the first case. They agree in the second, because no lighter category of armor exists - apparently they didn't want to drop mithral shirts all the way down to mere "clothing." Which makes sense, actually, as then you'd likely see characters wearing layers of mithral shirts under breastplates and other such sillinesses.


Mithril really means less of an AC penalty and +2 max DEX bonus. I think that's good enough.

It doesn't change the type of object/item/armor/weapon except for some (or often all) of its material that is what it is made of, if that's what you're asking.
In every case, the reduced check penalty and increased DEX bonus puts mithral armor on par in those respects with steel armors from the next category lighter. Mithral also cuts weight by 50%, again bringing the stats of the mithral armor into line with those of "lighter" steel armors. It also reduces arcane spell failure chance, by enough that a mithral armor's failure chance is equivalent to those of steel armor a category lighter.

Every single stat that tends to get worse as armor bonus increases is improved by making the armor from mithril instead of steel; and in every single case that improvement is significant enough to make the mithral armor equivalent to steel armors of the next lighter category. That's why mithral armor is so expensive: it really is just better.


That's where WotC screws the pooch with me. I think it should be ruled as medium armor, simply because of its mass... doesn't matter if its easier to move around in.
What, 20 pounds? Notice that's 5 pounds lighter than a chain shirt made of steel (or adamantine for that matter). Are you houseruling that a chain shirt is Medium armor, "simply because of its mass"?


Also, I don't think any type of armor should ever be made of a specific type - under such a ruling, you'd have elven chain made of steel that would implode upon itself in a poof of non-logic.
That's why the "Elven Chain" entry in the DMG specifies mithral construction. It doesn't say that elves can't make armor out of steel, just that such armor wouldn't constitute the iconic, lightweight "Elven Chain."


If elven chain is any different from masterwork mithril chain mail you could still make it light armor but reduce the max dex and increase the AC penalties when made of different material - btw, I'd love to see how WotC attempts to wind themselves around the ruling for actually crafting elven chain (you MUST have mithril material components! No exceptions! If you don't, a dragon will eat you.).
In fact, the stats for "Elven Chain" are exactly those of a "generic" mithral chainmail (and mithral armor is explicitly always masterwork, by the way - the cost of top-shelf workmanship is included in the price). That is the sole and entire reason for the reductions in weight, check penalties, and casting failure, and the improved mobility and Max DEX. "Elven Chain" is simply mithral chainmail that hapens to have been made by an Elf. Steel chainmail made by an Elf may well be described as elven chain, but it is not "Elven Chain." There is no need for WotC to "wind themselves around" anything in this case.
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@OP:
Given that the entire system is highly contrived and artificial (as indeed it has to be, to model magic, dragons, undead, and so much more! as the infomercials say), I would say that "realism" was out the door long before you got to the page with mithral armor. Hit Points, anyone? So I would prefer to look at the gameplay effects of allowing or disallowing mithral armor to be used as described in the rules. That is, are an extra 3 points of armor bonus (the largest differential possible, treating Full Plate as Medium armor), plus the ability to use the Run action, overpowered? Is anyone shortchanged by it? I lean toward no, personally.

[LibraryOgre]

Given that the entire system is highly contrived and artificial (as indeed it has to be, to model magic, dragons, undead, and so much more! as the infomercials say), I would say that "realism" was out the door long before you got to the page with mithral armor. Hit Points, anyone? So I would prefer to look at the gameplay effects of allowing or disallowing mithral armor to be used as described in the rules. That is, are an extra 3 points of armor bonus (the largest differential possible, treating Full Plate as Medium armor), plus the ability to use the Run action, overpowered? Is anyone shortchanged by it? I lean toward no, personally.

I don't give a flip about realism. I care about verisimilitude. The mechanics of armor use are fairly well known, even when you make it out of exceptionally light materials (such as WhiteHarness's aluminum plate). While some things are necessary exceptions (magic, etc.), even they have an internal logic they must adhere to... a 1st level commoner needs a reason to be tossing fireballs, or it strains verisimilitude. There are a ton of reasons it might happen... possessed by a demon, really good roll on UMD and a wand of fireballs, even being an emerging sorcerer and this being a one-time "clue" to his powers... those make sense within the game world, and have verisimilitude. "He just can" strains verisimilitude, because it's not a common ability for 1st level human commoners.

[Lycar]

So I would prefer to look at the gameplay effects of allowing or disallowing mithral armor to be used as described in the rules. That is, are an extra 3 points of armor bonus (the largest differential possible, treating Full Plate as Medium armor), plus the ability to use the Run action, overpowered? Is anyone shortchanged by it? I lean toward no, personally.

Every class that has Heavy Armour Proficiency as a class feature gets shortchanged by it because this effectivly invalidates a class feature.

The only armours worth wearing (as by RAW) are chain shirts and maybe mithrial breastplates. Heavy armours just aren't worth the trouble, the 3 points of AC or the DR 3/- that adamantine heavy armour offers are pretty much irrelevant at the levels one can afford such equipment.

Sure, there are feats like Heavy Armour Optimisation, but they suffer from the same fatal flaw as Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialisation: Not worth a whole feat.

In the end it just comes down to just another nail in the coffin of Fighter feasability. Now if Fighters would learn to move in heavy armour, like Knights do...

Lycar

[Foryn Gilnith]

From the compiled D&D FAQ .pdf Index, on their website...

"Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a
rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate?
What about a character proficient with medium armor,
such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with
mithral full plate armor?
The description of mithral on page 284 of the DMG is less
precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor
proficiency rules. The simplest answer—and the one that the
Sage expects most players and DMs use—is that mithral armor
is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including
proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DMG says, but it’s a
reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s
supported by a number of precedents, including the
descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on
page 220 of the DMG and a variety of NPC stat blocks).
Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate
without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as
D&D FAQ v.3.5 54 Update Version: 6/30/08
light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on
wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s
combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor
without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as
medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on
wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement).
The same would be true of any other special material that
uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf,
on page 120 of the ECS)."

In short, the Sage suggests that it be treated as a category lighter for proficiency; but insists on not forcing any interpretation on the individual GMs. :P

[Chronos]

I will make this comment: I've made and worn both full plate and banded mail out of cardboard, for costumes. Both of them have negligible actual weight, but the banded mail was a lot easier to actually move around in.

Then again, though, neither of those was what one might call masterwork, either (even to the extent one can have masterwork cardboard). I can maybe accept that an armorer of exceptional skill, and with exceptional material to work with, possibly could create a suit of full plate that's significantly easier to wear than normal.

[John Campbell]

I will make this comment: I've made and worn both full plate and banded mail out of cardboard, for costumes. Both of them have negligible actual weight, but the banded mail was a lot easier to actually move around in.
Unless you're comparing full plate made of cardboard to banded mail made of steel, that's a totally different problem - namely that the relative Dex caps and ACPs for a lot of the armors are smoking the bad crack.

[Dr_Horrible]

I will make this comment: I've made and worn both full plate and banded mail out of cardboard, for costumes. Both of them have negligible actual weight, but the banded mail was a lot easier to actually move around in.

Then again, though, neither of those was what one might call masterwork, either (even to the extent one can have masterwork cardboard). I can maybe accept that an armorer of exceptional skill, and with exceptional material to work with, possibly could create a suit of full plate that's significantly easier to wear than normal.

Common conception as I've heard it is that in ye olde days, full plate is easier to wear then many other types of armor, because it's fitted well, and distributes the wait evenly instead of sitting on the shoulders. So if your full plate isn't fitted for you, I'm going to go ahead and decry this anecdotal evidence of meaning.

Actually, I'd decry it anyway, since it's unlikely that your versions have much in common with ye olde plate mail even in shape.

[Roderick_BR]

I agree that you should need proficiency in the older size, but as it was pointed out, it uses the new size, apparently by RAW. So, for ease of rules, I allow the new size.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Common conception as I've heard it is that in ye olde days, full plate is easier to wear then many other types of armor, because it's fitted well, and distributes the wait evenly instead of sitting on the shoulders. So if your full plate isn't fitted for you, I'm going to go ahead and decry this anecdotal evidence of meaning.

Yeah. In fact, mail hauberks - which rested almost entirely on the shoulders, maybe helped a bit by a belt clinching them at the waist - were supposedly (and pretty logically) harder to wear than possibly heavier full harness, which was strapped individually to each limb. I have a pretty hard time believing that a 25 lbs. (mithral) harness would be harder to wear than a 40 lbs. hauberk.

[John Campbell]

Yeah. In fact, mail hauberks - which rested almost entirely on the shoulders, maybe helped a bit by a belt clinching them at the waist - were supposedly (and pretty logically) harder to wear than possibly heavier full harness, which was strapped individually to each limb. I have a pretty hard time believing that a 25 lbs. (mithral) harness would be harder to wear than a 40 lbs. hauberk.

My experience is that my mail hauberk is easier to wear and easier to move and fight in than my plate armor was, even though the plate was actually lighter. The hauberk is heavier, and its weight may not be as well-distributed, but the its skirt doesn't weigh down and drag on my legs, slowing my foot speed, the way steel greaves and cuisses did, and even the best-engineered plate armor (which mine was not, honestly) can't match the flexibility and freedom of movement that mail provides. Though even in the plate, I was able to do things - like tumble - that the D&D rules say should be impossible even in mail.