Can you get 9th level divine and arcane spells by 20th level?

[TaintedLight]

After looking again in Complete Divine, it occurred to me that it might be possible to build a character that can cast 9th level arcane and divine spells by 20th character level using the Mystic Theurge and Ur-Priest prestige classes. If this is so, what varietes and variations on this build has the Playground produced in this vein? If the path to 9th level arcane and divine lies elsewhere, how does it acutally go?

[monty]

Bard 1 / Wizard 5 / Something with a good Fort save 2 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8. Done.

[Jack_Simth]

There's a couple of different ways.

Druid-3/Wizard-3/Mystic Theurge-4/Arcane Heriophant-10 - casts as a Druid-17 and a Wizard-17

Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4 (18th level Wizard casting, 10th level Ur-Priest casting)

Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice (Sublime Chord)-4 (8th level Savage Bard casting, 10th level Ur-Priest casting, 10th level Sublime Chord casting)

Wizard-9/Apostle of Peace-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-1 (casts as a Wizard-18, Apostle of Peace 10)

There's quite a few others.

[TaintedLight]

I'm not sure where some of the classes you guys are presenting here come from. I know Sublime Chord (hadn't even considered it :p) but I've never heard of Arcane Hierophant, Mindbender, Savage Bard, or Apostle of Peace. Which books should I look in?

[Dixieboy]

Arcane Hierophant, Mindbender, Savage Bard, or Apostle of Peace. Which books should I look in?
Arcane Heirophant is races of the wild.
Mind bender and the bard i do not know.
Stay away from apostle of peace in a regular campaing, he is not allowed to kill stuff or he loses his powers.
Hell his teammates are not allowed to kill stuff when he's around.

[Assassin89]

Savage Bard is from UA
Arcane Hierophant is from Races of the Wild
Apostle of Peace is from Book of Exalted Deeds
Mindbender is from Complete Arcane.

[Suedars]

Mindbender is from Complete Arcane, and Savage Bard is a variant Bard from Unearthed Arcana.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not sure where some of the classes you guys are presenting here come from. I know Sublime Chord (hadn't even considered it :p) but I've never heard of Arcane Hierophant, Mindbender, Savage Bard, or Apostle of Peace. Which books should I look in?

Let's see... Arcane Hierophant is from Races of the Wild, Mindbender is from Complete Arcane (same book as Sublime Chord), the Savage Bard is an Unearthed Arcana class variant (available Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ), and the Apostle of Peace is from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Hell his teammates are not allowed to kill stuff when he's around.

Correction - they're not permitted to kill helpless opponents when he's around. Another caster in the party is perfectly within the rules to lay out a Slay Living or a Finger of Death, and kill someone who's an active threat. It's the one that's been disabled by Hold Monster, Sleep Slumber, or whatever that they're not permitted to kill. Even then, they can, it just carries some annoying repercussions.

[Andras]

One of my favorites: Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2.

Requirements for AH are 8 ranks Knowledge: Nature and Arcana, 2nd level spell arcane casting, 2nd level spell divine casting, +4 BAB, and Trackless Step. It's from Races of the Wild.

MT requires 6 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana and Religion, and 2nd level spells for Arcane and Divine.

Strategy-wise, just spend all the skill points you can afford on Knowledge Arcana, Religion, and Nature, most importantly Arcana and Religion, while in Wizard levels, then cross-class spend for Arcana and bump Nature while in Druid levels, and you're good to go. The initial two levels of MT are there assuming no fractional BAB; if you play with fractional, feel free to bump one of those to the end (AH levels are better in pretty much every way).


At the end, you will have:

-17th level wizard casting (3 Wiz, 10 AH, 4 MT)
-17th level druid casting (3 Drd, 10 AH, 4 MT)

As well as nifty stuff like:

-Animal Companion and Familiar lumped together
-Line of effect for spells can come from an animal 4x/day, and a plant 2x/day
-No ASF for padded, leather, or hide armor

Edit: Beaten pretty hard

[Chronos]

It's not quite correct to say that Arcane Heirophant lumps your animal companion and familiar together. Rather, you have to give up your familiar, and your animal companion gains some but not all of the benefits your familiar would have had. Notably, though, it does not gain your skill ranks, like a regular familiar would.

Still, I have to agree that it's better than just Mystic Theurge, by a long shot. You also get Wildshape from it, too, and note that Natural Spell never says that it's limited to druid spells.

[TaintedLight]

These are all good, but I'd like to see a build that (if possible) accomplishes the following:

1. Wizard/Sorcerer list and Cleric list for spells (Sublime Chord is very limited and I prefer clerics/favored souls to druids).
2. No experience penalty for multiclassing.

[Jack_Simth]

These are all good, but I'd like to see a build that (if possible) accomplishes the following:

1. Wizard/Sorcerer list and Cleric list for spells (Sublime Chord is very limited and I prefer clerics/favored souls to druids).
2. No experience penalty for multiclassing.
Let's see... that rules out the Arcane Heirophant build (Druid base on the Divine side), the Sublime Chord build, and the Apostle of Peace build (does not have full Cleric list).

The Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Ur-Pries/Wizard)-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4 fits the bill. (one base class - Wizard - the rest are PrC's, which by RAW are not affected by multiclassing penalties) fits the bill.

If you go with "Text Trumps Table", then the Wizard-10/Rainbow Servant-10 also fits the bill. If you go by the advancement table in the PrC build, it doesn't.

[TaintedLight]

Let's see... that rules out the Arcane Heirophant build (Druid base on the Divine side), the Sublime Chord build, and the Apostle of Peace build (does not have full Cleric list).

The Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Ur-Pries/Wizard)-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4 fits the bill. (one base class - Wizard - the rest are PrC's, which by RAW are not affected by multiclassing penalties) fits the bill.

If you go with "Text Trumps Table", then the Wizard-10/Rainbow Servant-10 also fits the bill. If you go by the advancement table in the PrC build, it doesn't.

I'm not disputing that it does, but can you tell me where it says RAW that PrC's don't count towards experience penalties?

Also, Rainbow Servant is some seriously stinky cheese at 10th level.

[Eldariel]

I'm not disputing that it does, but can you tell me where it says RAW that PrC's don't count towards experience penalties?

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm) states: "Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not disputing that it does, but can you tell me where it says RAW that PrC's don't count towards experience penalties?

Also, Rainbow Servant is some seriously stinky cheese at 10th level.
Well, it is stinky under a couple of basic conditions:

1) You go with Text Trumps Table, so it's full advancement (otherwise, it loses four levels of spellcasting, and you don't get 9th level spells until at least 21st level)
2) You go with a base spellcasting class that gets it's full class spell list as known spells automatically - such as the Beguiler or the Warmage.

For a Wizard, it's not actually as bad as it seems, initially - it just gives access to the Cleric spell list, not automatic knoweledge of all spells on the Cleric list.

[TaintedLight]

I see where in the SRD the clause about XP penalties is, but which page of the DMG is it on? I would think it would be on page 176, but I can't find it there.

[Dr_Horrible]

I see where in the SRD the clause about XP penalties is, but which page of the DMG is it on? I would think it would be on page 176, but I can't find it there.

That's actually because they accidentally removed it from the 3.0 DMG in the transition to 3.5.

Check the errata.

[TaintedLight]

That's actually because they accidentally removed it from the 3.0 DMG in the transition to 3.5.

Check the errata.

I looked up the DMG errata on the WotC site, but it said nothing about PrC's whatsoever. Are you guys sure that they just don't count for the multiclass penalty?

[Eldariel]

I looked up the DMG errata on the WotC site, but it said nothing about PrC's whatsoever. Are you guys sure that they just don't count for the multiclass penalty?

SRD is newer than DMG, so it should take precedence. It's somewhere in some DMG, but I can't be arsed to look where. May be that the print edition of 3.5 DMG lacks it - I couldn't find it with a quick scan - but as it's in SRD, not to worry. I just checked 3.0 DMG and it's there on page 27.

[lsfreak]

It's not in the print version of 3.5 nor the errata. As said, though, SRD takes precedence.

[TaintedLight]

SRD is newer than DMG, so it should take precedence. It's somewhere in some DMG, but I can't be arsed to look where. May be that the print edition of 3.5 DMG lacks it - I couldn't find it with a quick scan - but as it's in SRD, not to worry. I just checked 3.0 DMG and it's there on page 27.

Excellent- I just found it in the SRD on WotC's own site so there will be no disputes when I prove this to my DM :p.

[Chronos]

1. Wizard/Sorcerer list and Cleric list for spells (Sublime Chord is very limited and I prefer clerics/favored souls to druids).They don't learn very many spells, true, but Sublime Chords can choose any sorcerer/wizard spell, plus a few bard spells that aren't on the sor/wiz list.

Here's a challenge: Is there any way to get 9th-level casting from both the sor/wiz list and the archivist? That'd be the true master of spell versatility.

Perhaps something like bard 1/archivist 9/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 9?

[Dr_Horrible]

Here's a challenge: Is there any way to get 9th-level casting from both the sor/wiz list and the archivist? That'd be the true master of spell versatility.

Illumin Archivist 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Prestige Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10, using Bind Soulmeld and Chakra opening.

Archivist 17/Wizard 17, all Int based casting. Sexy.

[Andras]

Still, I have to agree that it's better than just Mystic Theurge, by a long shot. You also get Wildshape from it, too, and note that Natural Spell never says that it's limited to druid spells.

Unfortunately, you only get Wildshape uses from it if you already had Wildshape, which isn't the case in any 9th/9th level spell build.

[Dr_Horrible]

Unfortunately, you only get Wildshape uses from it if you already had Wildshape, which isn't the case in any 9th/9th level spell build.

Actually, it stacks with Druid levels for Wildshape.

So if you are a level 3 Druid/10 Arcane Heirophant, you are treated as a level 13 Druid for Wildshape. With all the benefits entailed, including actual Wildshape.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Actually, it stacks with Druid levels for Wildshape.

So if you are a level 3 Druid/10 Arcane Heirophant, you are treated as a level 13 Druid for Wildshape. With all the benefits entailed, including actual Wildshape.No, it stacks if you have Wildshape. It doesn't actually grant Wildshape. A Wiz 3/Druid 5/AH 1 has more Wildshape than a Wiz 3/Druid 4/AH 10. Which is stupid, but RaW.

[Dr_Horrible]

No, it stacks if you have Wildshape. It doesn't actually grant Wildshape. A Wiz 3/Druid 5/AH 1 has more Wildshape than a Wiz 3/Druid 4/AH 10. Which is stupid, but RaW.

"For example, a 3rd level Wizard/3rd level Druid/4th level Arcane Heirophant has the Wildshape ability of a 7th level Druid."

Straight from the actual Wildshape text.

[Sinfire Titan]

These are all good, but I'd like to see a build that (if possible) accomplishes the following:

1. Wizard/Sorcerer list and Cleric list for spells (Sublime Chord is very limited and I prefer clerics/favored souls to druids).
2. No experience penalty for multiclassing.

Wizard 3/Master Specialist 6/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8.

Master Specialist is in Complete Mage. Mindbender is in Complete Arcane.

[Salt_Crow]

Warmage (beguiler? DN?) 6/Rainbow Servant 10/full spellcasting PrC 4

Now you know all warmage/beguiler/dread necromancer arcane spells up to 9th level and you can also cast all cleric spells (plus air, good and law domains) as divine spells using the same number of spells/day.

[Chronos]

Illumin Archivist 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Prestige Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10, using Bind Soulmeld and Chakra opening.

Archivist 17/Wizard 17, all Int based casting. Sexy.How are you getting the Druidic language needed for Fochlucan Lyrist?

[Eldariel]

How are you getting the Druidic language needed for Fochlucan Lyrist?

By kidnapping a level 1 Druid at some point, applying appropriate amounts of magical compulsion and leaving him an ex-Druid in the process.

[Vexxation]

By kidnapping a level 1 Druid at some point, applying appropriate amounts of magical compulsion and leaving him an ex-Druid in the process.

That's just... evil.
I like it.

[Dr_Horrible]

Nah, just finding a Blighter and promising to use my Archivist powers to Limited Wish a Psychic Reformation for him to get into a real class.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

These are all good, but I'd like to see a build that (if possible) accomplishes the following:

1. Wizard/Sorcerer list and Cleric list for spells (Sublime Chord is very limited and I prefer clerics/favored souls to druids).
2. No experience penalty for multiclassing.Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8. 18/full casting, season to taste.

Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer 10/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8. 21/full casting. Set the Contingency for 'when books are thrown'. Only works with LA buyoff, otherwise lose Loredrake, dropping it to 19/full.

Also, Beholder Mage works wonders for this. If Loredrake was cheesy, expect your DM to gate in Pun-Pun in response.

[Dr_Horrible]

Yeah, pretty much Beholdermage 10 on it's own is enough to make anything cry. Make it something theurge and it's just more evil. Since you know, casting ten spells is a free action, so then the standard can be used to cast an 11th from another class.

[Talic]

Here's the real question...

Can you get 9th level arcane and divine casting by level 18 (the level sorcerors would get 9th level access) ??

If you can do that... Try for 17.

And if you can do that?
Get Arcane, Clerical-based divine, and Druid-based divine, to level 9, at the lowest possible level.

[Dr_Horrible]

Here's the real question...

Can you get 9th level arcane and divine casting by level 18 (the level sorcerors would get 9th level access) ??

If you can do that... Try for 17.

And if you can do that?
Get Arcane, Clerical-based divine, and Druid-based divine, to level 9, at the lowest possible level.

LA buyoff Phaerimm Druid 3/Arcane Heriophant 5/Wizard 1/Arcane Heirophant 5/Mystic Theurge 6 with Alternate Spell Source to qualify. 9th level Arcane at level 13, 9th level Divine at 18, and level 6 Wizard spells too.

Drop the Wizard casting to get Divine one level earlier.

As for the final challenge? Archivist counts as both Divines, see earlier builds.

Or minus that cheating:

Phaerimm Druid 5, teaches Druidic to previous character, get's Psychic Reformed to Phaerimm Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 2, then advances to Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/DweomerKeeper 4/Blighter 1/DweomerKeeper 6/Divine Casting PrC 2. Takes all the way to level 24, but only because I can't Theurge Blighter and Cleric, and Ur-Priest negates all Divine.

[Talic]

Psychic Reformation doesn't allow reselection of classes.

[Dr_Horrible]

Psychic Reformation doesn't allow reselection of classes.

GRRBlargl. Retraining then. There has to be some way to screw your ex-Druid levels off.

[Chronos]

With enough flaws (about 10 of them), you can get 9th-level arcane spells at level 1, and by level 3, you could get that and also 9th-level divine spells. Unfortunately, that's just an insanely heightened wizard spell with a base level of 2 or 3, and converted to divine via Alternate Source Spell, so no Wishes or Miracles.

[Drolyt]

With enough flaws (about 10 of them), you can get 9th-level arcane spells at level 1, and by level 3, you could get that and also 9th-level divine spells. Unfortunately, that's just an insanely heightened wizard spell with a base level of 2 or 3, and converted to divine via Alternate Source Spell, so no Wishes or Miracles.

That... is hands down the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard since Pun Pun. Not cause it's broken, cause it isn't really, but because it is completely and utterly pointless and yet somehow awesome.