My rant about KOTOR 2. Please tell me what you think, agreement or no.

[Jeivar]

I'm terribly afraid that I'll come across as one of those intolerable elitist fanboys who are never, ever satisfied with anything, but I'll just have to swear that I'm not, and go for it:

I completely hate Knights of the Old Republic 2. For a whole slew of reasons. And I'd like to know if others feel the same way.

KOTOR 1 is one of my all-time favorite games ever, let's just get that straight. The NPC's, the epic story with just the right amount of cheese topping( :) ), the soundtrack, the themes of corruption and redemption, the sheer awesome cool-factor of roleplaying a Jedi. I remember feeling so damn HAPPY for Revan at the reward ceremony, having returned to the light and redeemed his/her sins.

Heck, it was the first game I owned for my PC, both of which I bought as a reward to myself for graduating high school. And as a little bonus, writing kotor fanfic allowed me to hone and test my writing skills, and eventually led to me embarking on my quest of becoming a published author (am now getting serious consideration from publishers...).
So yeah, while it certainly isn't perfect (but then what is?) this game holds a special place in my heart that few fictional works can claim.

And then came KOTOR 2, with brand new developers, who had the sheer nerve to TOTALLY CRAP ALL OVER EVERYTHING THE FIRST GAME WAS ABOUT. And yes, I know that they were forced to ship the damn thing before it was finished, and that's the cause for all the plotholes and loose threads, but that's not why I hate it so.

To back up my "Not a fanboy!" stance I'll admit that there are some things that K2 definitely does right: The tweaks to the combat system were a welcome change, as were the new and cool Force powers, new races and PC faces, and I loved that the skills were actually useful this time around. Also, there are some genuinely well-written and entertaining bits, such as the whole civil-war part, and the scene where you open Mira to the Force was REALLY well done, in my opinion. It really gave me some empathy for the character, and her life-changing experience.
So definite kudos in those departments.

Moving on:

I guess the root of the problem is that Obsidian tried to make the Light Side and Dark Side endings of K1 equally viable (which makes no sense, given that a Dark Side Revan ends the game with the Star Forge and Bastila, and basically invincible with nothing left to stand against him), and so went with that whole "Ah, but Dark Side Revan never actually fell FOR REALZ! He made a calculated decision to join the dark side, revive the horrible Sith order of psychopathic megalomaniacs, and wage horrible in order to strengthen the Republic! He never lost sight of that, and always had everyone's best interests at heart!"

Um . . .

Okay, putting aside the issue of the Dark Side being absolutely corrupting and evil, no matter what intentions one might start out with, this throws a nice big dose of: "Hah hah, everything you accomplished was for nothing! There was no redemption quest OR fall from grace! Suck it!" in our faces.

KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.
Which to me kind of feels like another way to trivialize the previous game.
Honestly, why couldn't Obsidian just go with the Light Side ending, and feature a new character fighting a new Sith Lord rising to take Malak's place?

This weird, hateful subversion of the first game is my main beef with K2, but I certainly have others, such as the party members: I hated Kreia's horrible nagging, I grew to despise Atton and his backstory felt like that of a pathetic creep (and the voice actor didn't help), and GOTO . . .

GOTO . . . the guy puts out a huge bounty on the Exile's head, which draws any amount of trouble and homicidal guns-for-hire, eventually capturing him/her (oh, and just how many times in Exile captured/incapacitated in this game!?) and announces that the whole thing has been in order to persuade Exile to DO WHAT HE/SHE WAS ALREADY DOING, DESPITE BEING SEVERELY HAMPERED BY BOUNTY-HUNTER ATTACKS!!!
He then proceeds to force himself onto the Ebon Hawk crew, despite being completely useless for anything other than bad attitude. And this despite the fact that a Dark Sider would kill him for the trouble he's caused, and a Light Sider would bring him down for being a damn crime lord! Honestly, my dislike of Kreia, Atton and Mandalore pales in comparison. None of it made sense!

On a lesser NPC-note I was also kind of unimpressed that I could cycle through Mira's entire dialogue and Jedi-fy her a few minutes after she joined the team. It took a lot of the impact out, even though I'll admit I like her the most of all the characters.

If I wasn't so sleepy right now I could probably go on and on about the details that just bugged me, and had nothing to do with a rushed schedule. Time spent working on a game can't fix a fundamentally flawed concept or two or three truly award-winningly annoying NPC's, or the "Revan is an infallible God!". But I'm too tired to recall all of it, and you probably get the idea as it is.

So I'll just get off my soapbox for now and open the floor for replies, disagreements, and hopefully some agreements as well. :smallsmile:

[Toastkart]

I can see where you're coming from, and even agree with you on GOTO, who was annoying as hell and I never used him. On the other hand, I disagree that it totally disregarded the previous story. Yeah, the starforge was basically forgotten, but that's minor.

Think of it from this point of view, though. You as the player are only told that Revan was an evil bad sith lord hellbent on fighting the Republic after the Mandelorian wars. But you're not really told what happened between the Jedi civil war and Malak betraying Revan, not specifically. That leaves an awful lot of room for events and character development. Don't forget that Revan suffered from periodic bouts of amnesia (kotor2 alludes to this even before Malak's betrayal) so there's a lot of his motivation that remains unknown to the player even in kotor1.

As for Revan being a godlike figure, I didn't really get that feeling. Sure, he had an agenda. And no, I don't see Revan not falling to the dark side as a stupid moment. That was the entire point, not that he fell to the dark side but that he turned away from the Jedi and was branded a sith. Remember that in kotor1 we're not really given a reason why Revan turned on the Jedi, we're just told he did, and from the perspective of the Jedi, not Revan after he gets his memory back.

I don't disagree with your overall conclusion that kotor2 trivializes kotor1, but I also don't see it as a big problem. kotor1 did kind of have a basic, formulaic story that's been played out in star wars media for how long now? kotor2 took that same old story and did something with it that hadn't been done before and hasn't, to my knowledge, been done since (although I fully admit to not being very familiar with the EU).

Further, you might not like Kreia, but then, she's not there for you to like, she's there to teach you. If you don't get anything out of her lessons, then she's not going to be an enjoyable character and I can't help you there. Don't forget that she admits to being a liar and manipulator and she uses it as a teaching point so that you'll actually learn something and not take what people say at face value, namely the Jedi Masters. If you didn't get that then that's a huge portion of the story that doesn't make much sense.

Suffice to say, kotor2 takes everything that you know and love about star wars, turns it on its head, and tells it like it is. If that's not your thing, then that's ok. But if you don't like kotor2 because you didn't get to be Revan again, I'm not sure what else I can say.

[Ozymandias]

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, of course.

I disagree completely, though. KoToR II's story is definitely a massive departure from the first one, but I welcome that. It's less of an obvious Light/Dark dichotomy, which I don't really like in the first place. I'm kind of sick of the "prideful Light champion falls to the Dark side" story. It's pretty trite, at this point, especially in Star Wars. Characters with more ambiguity, like Revan and Kreia, make for more interesting stories.

The thing with Mara's dialogue was clearly just an oversight.

[Zarah]

KOTOR 1 is one of my all-time favorite games ever, let's just get that straight. The NPC's, the epic story with just the right amount of cheese topping( :) )
Let me start out by saying that that may very well be why you disliked KotOR2. The story was not a traditional Star Wars tale, as the others have already mentioned, and there really wasn't any of the "cheese" to go around. It was much darker and was in the moral gray area. This is exactly why I praise the game so much. Like Evrine said, it took what we knew about Star Wars and changed it into something that made us think.


And then came KOTOR 2, with brand new developers, who had the sheer nerve to TOTALLY CRAP ALL OVER EVERYTHING THE FIRST GAME WAS ABOUT.
Like I just said, that was sort of the point. :smalltongue: It was trying to show a side of Star Wars that we'd never seen before, and ultimately made it work very well. If you mean it crapped all over the established story, well that's certainly your opinion, but I'd have to say it does anything but.


I guess the root of the problem is that Obsidian tried to make the Light Side and Dark Side endings of K1 equally viable (which makes no sense, given that a Dark Side Revan ends the game with the Star Forge and Bastila, and basically invincible with nothing left to stand against him), and so went with that whole "Ah, but Dark Side Revan never actually fell FOR REALZ! He made a calculated decision to join the dark side, revive the horrible Sith order of psychopathic megalomaniacs, and wage horrible in order to strengthen the Republic! He never lost sight of that, and always had everyone's best interests at heart!"
I sort of agree with you on this part. The Dark Side ending of KotOR1 doesn't really work all that well when KotOR2 came around. However, I never had a problem with it because I always viewed the past events as they happened in the canonical Light Side ending, so everything made sense.


Okay, putting aside the issue of the Dark Side being absolutely corrupting and evil, no matter what intentions one might start out with, this throws a nice big dose of: "Hah hah, everything you accomplished was for nothing! There was no redemption quest OR fall from grace! Suck it!" in our faces.
Once again, I sort of agree with you here, since it was somewhat disappointing that everything from the first game seemed to be rendered moot with Revan simply leaving. Especially on such a vague mission as he did. However, I'm glad they didn't use Revan as a playable character again. In fact, I'm glad he didn't show up at all. Don't get me wrong, Revan was an awesome character, but I've always liked the Exile far more.


KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.
While there's no argument that Revan was a brilliant strategist, you can't ignore the rest of the canon outside of the games. Leading up to the Mandalorian Wars, Revan had a huge following of Jedi and it didn't take them long to basically start treating him like a god. After the war, he left and every single Jedi who fought with him followed (minus the Exile). Yes, thousands upon thousands of Jedi followed their leader to unknown space for an unknown mission, only to return and declare war on the Republic. This is the level of devotion these people had to their leader.

I agree that Revan was no more than a man. A very talented man, but a man nonetheless. Your argument seems to hinge on taking what everyone says about Revan from KotOR2 as fact, which you simply can't do. They were talking about him the way they were because that's all they knew. To them, Revan was unstoppable. He was like "looking into the heart of the Force." Granted, Kreia was one of the people who described him as such, but you can't trust her words either. She was one of the Masters that trained him, so it's not a stretch to say she would be exaggerating a bit.


Which to me kind of feels like another way to trivialize the previous game.
Honestly, why couldn't Obsidian just go with the Light Side ending, and feature a new character fighting a new Sith Lord rising to take Malak's place?
Well, the way I've seen it, KotOR2 isn't meant to be played with the KotOR1 Dark Side ending being canon. And if you want to be technical, the Light Side ending is official canon, so you've got that.


This weird, hateful subversion of the first game is my main beef with K2,
Matter of opinion. The subversive nature of the story is one of the reasons why I hold it so highly in the Star Wars universe.



I hated Kreia's horrible nagging, I grew to despise Atton and his backstory felt like that of a pathetic creep (and the voice actor didn't help)
I'll agree with you about Kreia's nagging. When I first played the game, I couldn't stand her. I hated her as a character. In fact, I think you're supposed to, because a lot of the time, she was right. Then when I learned more about her and finally got to the end of the game, I came to understand why she was awarded as the best video game character of the year. :smalltongue:

The problem with a lot of SW villains is that they're evil for the sake of being evil. Honestly, most of them have no depth. Malak is a perfect example. Tell me, why was he waging war with the Republic? "To wipe out the Jedi and take over the galaxy!" Okay... Why? "Because I can." Kreia on the other hand, was anything but mindlessly evil. She had very specific goals and made them very clear. Was she right to do what she was doing? Well, that's up to you, and that is why she's a great character.

Atton on the other hand, I always felt was sort of shallow. Anyway, you knock him for having a backstory of a "pathetic creep," which frankly, is what it's supposed to be like. That's why he keeps it a secret. It's not something he's proud of. Training him to be a Jedi, however, is not something I found particularly amusing.


GOTO . . . the guy puts out a huge bounty on the Exile's head, which draws any amount of trouble and homicidal guns-for-hire, eventually capturing him/her (oh, and just how many times in Exile captured/incapacitated in this game!?) and announces that the whole thing has been in order to persuade Exile to DO WHAT HE/SHE WAS ALREADY DOING, DESPITE BEING SEVERELY HAMPERED BY BOUNTY-HUNTER ATTACKS!!!
He then proceeds to force himself onto the Ebon Hawk crew, despite being completely useless for anything other than bad attitude. And this despite the fact that a Dark Sider would kill him for the trouble he's caused, and a Light Sider would bring him down for being a damn crime lord! Honestly, my dislike of Kreia, Atton and Mandalore pales in comparison. None of it made sense!
Once again, it comes to perspective. Look at it from GOTO's eyes. Did he know what the Exile was doing? How could he? All he knew was that he needed to convince her to help him, and had to do it as quickly as he could. If he had known that she was doing what he wanted her to in the first place, he probably wouldn't have interfered, but like I said, he simply wouldn't have known what the Exile was up to, so did what he thought he needed to.

Secondly, while I agree about GOTO's joining of the party seeming kind of stupid, I have a problem with your assessment of how a Light Sider would have brought him down, since it's obvious that you weren't paying attention at this part of the game. GOTO couldn't have been brought down. It would have destabilized the Republic and thrown the galaxy further into chaos. IIRC, he specifically explains this to the Exile at one point on his yacht. Even if he didn't explicitly state it, read his Wookieepedia article and it's easy to see that if GOTO was removed, things would have gotten very bad for the Republic very quickly.


As you can see, I like KotOR2. A lot. So I feel somewhat entitled to defend it when threads like these come up. I see a lot of unfair bashing of KotOR2 around the internet, mostly due to the rushed production, and I just don't like it, since there's a lot of good to the game if you look past that. Of course, that wasn't your beef, and most of your arguments are simply personal opinions anyway. But I can still debate them. :smalltongue:

[Lycan 01]

Kotor I > Kotor II

Kotor II dissappointed me. :smallfrown: The beginning was boring, the levels didn't impress me as much as Kotor I, the party wasn't as memorable, there were too many plot holes and broken/uncomplete quests, some plot points/game events were letdowns, the ending SUCKED, and too many questions were left unanswered.

I've heard the game is broken because of its early release. This saddens me. If the game had been completed, it would have been one of my favorites. But instead, I found myself feeling... empty... as the credits rolled. Like... I'd wasted my time. In fact, I seem to recall laughing as I turned off the system and left the room, bemused by how dissappointing the whole thing turned out to be.

[Philistine]

In order...

I guess the root of the problem is that Obsidian tried to make the Light Side and Dark Side endings of K1 equally viable
The alternative would have been impractical. Imagine the nerdrage that you feel now, multiplied by all the sad cellar-dwellers who only ever played DS and who would have cried about how OE "cheated" them of "their" ending for KotOR. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this was a condition of the contract with LA.


... (which makes no sense, given that a Dark Side Revan ends the game with the Star Forge and Bastila, and basically invincible with nothing left to stand against him), and so went with that whole "Ah, but Dark Side Revan never actually fell FOR REALZ! He made a calculated decision to join the dark side, revive the horrible Sith order of psychopathic megalomaniacs, and wage horrible in order to strengthen the Republic! He never lost sight of that, and always had everyone's best interests at heart!"
That's... not the way I recall hearing the story in-game. That's not any of the ways I recall hearing the story in-game. It's close to something which Kreia suggests might have happened - an alternative explanation for Revan's actions, if looked at "from a certain point of view." But the thing is, Kreia is a liar and a manipulator; she has a definite agenda and she is constantly trying to shape and guide the Exile to suit her own ends. Plus, Revan was her all-time favorite pupil. So why would you ever take anything she says at face value? Especially anything to do with Revan?


Okay, putting aside the issue of the Dark Side being absolutely corrupting and evil, no matter what intentions one might start out with, this throws a nice big dose of: "Hah hah, everything you accomplished was for nothing! There was no redemption quest OR fall from grace! Suck it!" in our faces.
The latter is, I believe, sufficiently addressed above in that the only source for the "no fall and thus no redemption" idea is Kreia, who is completely untrustworthy. The former, well... I personally thought it was nice to finally see some depth in the SW universe. YM Obviously V.


KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.
Again, the primary source for "demigod Revan" is Kreia. Never trust Kreia. And again, I rather enjoyed seeing SW break away from the cliches, even if only briefly. YM Obviously V.


This weird, hateful subversion of the first game is my main beef with K2...
I don't see it that way at all. OE had to allow for both the LS and DS endings of the first game - and that meant they couldn't actually dwell on the specifics of what happened in the game very much, but had to talk about in vague, suggestive terms. And as for Kreia's questions, asking whether Revan's fall and redemption were real - the idea is not to trivialize the first game, but to try to cast it in a new light, and cause players to think about it in new ways.


... the party members: I hated Kreia's horrible nagging, I grew to despise Atton and his backstory felt like that of a pathetic creep (and the voice actor didn't help), and GOTO...
Kreia isn't really there to be liked; she's there to be interesting. Her purpose is to ask questions that give KotOR2 a bit more depth than the first game (which really was a rather straightforward adventure, all told). I felt the writers were successful in that - Kreia certainly was memorable, at the very least. To my mind, the character of Kreia carries almost the entire weight of making KotOR2 a smarter, more challenging game than the first one.

Atton is very much a love-him-or-hate-him character. But if redemption themes are your thing, I'm not sure why you wouldn't like him: he's one of the few characters in the second game who actually gets (or needs to be) redeemed. (That's assuming you influence him toward the LS, of course.)

G0-T0, well... everybody hates G0-T0. Luckily, you scarcely have to interact with him - not at all after he joins the Ebon Hawk crew. He's never a mandatory companion.


On a lesser NPC-note I was also kind of unimpressed that I could cycle through Mira's entire dialogue and Jedi-fy her a few minutes after she joined the team.
This is in fact another casualty of the rushed schedule. There was a much more involved Influence system planned (which is being restored in the TSLRP (http://www.team-gizka.org/)). Beta testers have reported that with the new (or old) Influence system implemented, this is no longer possible.

[Zincorium]

Kotor 2 felt a lot more satisfying for several reasons:

-The beginning of K1 stretches my suspension of disbelief well beyond any sort of reasonable boundry. The republic is apparently so stupid they should have been destroyed by the mandalorians for the good of the people under them, and the sith are the same thing in black tophats. The republic apparently can't figure out they've got their worst enemy on their freakin' capital ship (and subsequently toss them out the airlock) and the sith can't find a jedi, one who has a profound effect on others, despite the whole 'sensing the force' thing being done to death later on.

-Weapon modifications were a full fledged system in KOTOR 2, but in K1 they were totally eclipsed by the unique weapons.

-The transition to a prestige class felt fairly organic and you weren't punished for attempting to complete more of the game. Suddenly becoming a Jedi after somehow not being a Jedi, but you're training and... ow... my brain has tried to crawl out of my skull again. It just didn't make sense at all when you knew the ending.

- No Mission. I freaking *hated* having to have that character with me. G0T0 is at least optional.


Now, don't get me wrong, KOTOR 1 was an enjoyable experience, but KOTOR 2 had a much better grasp of gameplay and allowed different styles of play (seriously, lack of lightsaber finesse was brutal in K1). It's lack of coherent ending was painful, but I haven't let that kill my enjoyment of games previously.

[Pronounceable]

I completely hate Knights of the Old Republic 2. For a whole slew of reasons. And I'd like to know if others feel the same way.


You are indeed entitled to your opinion, even if that opinion is totally, utterly, quantifiably, objectively, ecumenically and grammatically wrong. (or I'm a KotoR2 fanboy, take your pick)

KOTOR 1 is one of my all-time favorite games ever, let's just get that straight. The NPC's, the epic story with just the right amount of cheese topping( :) ), the soundtrack, the themes of corruption and redemption, the sheer awesome cool-factor of roleplaying a Jedi. I remember feeling so damn HAPPY for Revan at the reward ceremony, having returned to the light and redeemed his/her sins.

Which is the root of the problem, as noted above. KotoR was the same tired old cheezy story, in SPACE! With LIGHTSABERS! Which was already done about 97 million times in recent history. Specifically, it was quite blatantly ripped off from the work of some guy called George Lucas (who isn't a very good writer himself).


And then came KOTOR 2, with brand new developers, who had the sheer nerve to TOTALLY CRAP ALL OVER EVERYTHING THE FIRST GAME WAS ABOUT.

It's not a bug, it's a feature. And challenging such a well established thing as SW (even if it's cheezy and trite as hell) requires balls. Obsidian tried to subvert the whole mess of Star Wars and almost succeeded (conspiracy theory time! LucasArts realized KotoR2 was gonna rock so bad it'd make everything SW look shallow and trite so they crapped on Obsidian). You, being the traditionalist SW fan, don't like it. We, the appreciaters of creativity in fiction and supporters of inversion and subversion of tropes, adore it. Sounds condescending? Yep, it is.

I guess the root of the problem is that Obsidian tried to make the Light Side and Dark Side endings of K1 equally viable (which makes no sense, given that a Dark Side Revan ends the game with the Star Forge and Bastila, and basically invincible with nothing left to stand against him), and so went with that whole "Ah, but Dark Side Revan never actually fell FOR REALZ! He made a calculated decision to join the dark side, revive the horrible Sith order of psychopathic megalomaniacs, and wage horrible in order to strengthen the Republic! He never lost sight of that, and always had everyone's best interests at heart!"

Star Forge is handwaved away, I'll give you that. Revan choosing to dark to ultimately strengthen the Republic thing is only implied, with no real proof. Specifically, by Kreia (who's a liar and a manipulator). Who might as well be the greatest Revan fangirl ever.


KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.

It's Kreia again. Her manipulations considerably color our image of Revan and her fanboyism is contagious. Which infected the whole SW (or at least KotoR) fans, which is why that calculated fall thing is considered canon. Also some "proof" of Revan's unstoppability comes from HK47 as well, whose Revan fanboyism is hardwired.


Honestly, why couldn't Obsidian just go with the Light Side ending, and feature a new character fighting a new Sith Lord rising to take Malak's place?

Because that'd be... Trite? Lame? Overdone? Cliched?


This weird, hateful subversion of the first game is my main beef with K2, but I certainly have others, such as the party members: I hated Kreia's horrible nagging, I grew to despise Atton and his backstory felt like that of a pathetic creep (and the voice actor didn't help), and GOTO . . .

The weird, (possibly but not probably) hateful subversion of the first game (and its extremely cliched story) is the main purpose of KotoR2. Which is a success.

As for Atton, he's space scum that likes to put on a Han Solo facade (subversion of tropes again). And GOTO is plain awesome. It's an accountant droid gone godfather, what more could you possibly want? Admittedly, it sucks as a party member. Plus it had no idea what "the last jedi" was doing, and as a notorious mob boss it couldn't just go around telling people it needed to meet a jedi for the good of the Republic. And with its yacht blowing up, it had nowhere else to escape but Ebon Hawk. Once there, why not stick around with that jedi it tried so hard to find?


If I wasn't so sleepy right now I could probably go on and on about the details that just bugged me, and had nothing to do with a rushed schedule. Time spent working on a game can't fix a fundamentally flawed concept or two or three truly award-winningly annoying NPC's, or the "Revan is an infallible God!". But I'm too tired to recall all of it, and you probably get the idea as it is.

Time spent to actually FINISH the game would've worked wonders. Plus the whole cast is varying shades of awesome (except for poor Bao Dur), yet another point where you're scientifically wrong. Though kudos to YOU, for being able to see past the beta status of the game and being able to express your (objectively wrong) beef about the game.

I realize this post doesn't add much to discussion beyond what posters above have said (in a snarkier tone), but it's the (scientifically provable) truth!


EDIT: It saddens me to see GOTO is disliked so much. I chalk it up to ignorance. If you don't use GOTO, you won't see what an awesome NPC it is. If you don't know how awesome GOTO is, you don't use it. Which is an endless cycle of misery and loss...

[Crahen]

I don't have a whole lot to say; Zarah summed up my thoughts pretty well. I will comment on a few things, though.

Firstly, Kreia is hands-down my favorite EU character, ever. She ran a brilliant Xanatos Gambit, and her common-sense lessons really showed you what type of a person she was. It was a huge difference for Star Wars; she wasn't an evil archetype, she was someone who simply didn't care about the dichotomy between light and dark. Now, I would say Kreia is dark, since destroying the Force sort of destroys all life, but her reasoning could be understood, since she had seem the hypocrisy of both Jedi and Sith.

She was sort of annoying in the game, at first, to me, but after I began to figure out she had a plan, her cryptic messages became interesting... very interesting. I'll say it again, she was my favorite KotOR2 character, and she still is my favorite Extended Universe character.

As for Atton, he was nice enough, but he was annoying. His backstory would have been more interesting if his personality fit it in the least bit. I liked Carth more than Atton.

I liked KotOR2 better, although it's a shame it wasn't brought to the same level of completion as KotOR1.

[Fri]

Where's Closet Skeleton?

Anyway, kotor 2 hold a special place in my heart since it's actually the first kotor that I played.

yes, it's DAMN CONFUSING. I almost didn't understand one single paragraph of it. I kept getting reference on revan or malak or something else, but I don't know who that is. And kreia even makes less sense.

But for some reason, it turned the game story into something... mythical. Since I don't even know what happened in the first game (just like the exile) legends and true events got mixed in my head. What actually happened previously? Why did the republic got so destroyed?

It was mind numbingly screwy, but it was awesome in 'i don't have a frakkin clue what's going on here' kind of way.

Then I got kotor 1, and things starting to get more sense. IT WAS AWESOME.

Like what star wars movies supposed to be. With episode 4 first, then episode 1.

Seriously, imagine what's going on in my head.

On KOTOR 2, the republic is almost in a post apocalyptic condition. Jedis are lost. Planets were destroyed and we could only see the ruins. Everything is generally dark and foreboding and dangerous, with zombie sith running around and everything.

THEN

I got KOTOR 1, when everything is still shiny, JEDI AND SITH ARE EVERYWHERE, epic adventure abound, and it explain things from the first game. I felt like I was playing a legend, an epic legend, the legendary revan.

IT. WAS. FRAKKIN. AWESOME.

I hereby recommend that from now on, people must play the second game first.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Where's Closet Skeleton?

Anyway, kotor 2 hold a special place in my heart since it's actually the first kotor that I played.

yes, it's DAMN CONFUSING. I almost didn't understand one single paragraph of it. I kept getting reference on revan or malak or something else, but I don't know who that is. And kreia even got less sense.

But for some reason, it turned the game story into something... mythical. Since I don't even know what happened in the first game (just like the exile) legends and true events got mixed in my head. What actually happened previously? Why did the republic got so destroyed?

It was mind numbingly screwy, but it was awesome in 'i don't have a frakkin clue what's going on here' kind of way.

Then I got kotor 1, and things starting to get more sense. IT WAS AWESOME.

Like what star wars movies supposed to be. With episode 4 first, then episode 1.

Seriously, imagine what's going on in my head.

On KOTOR 2, the republic is almost in a post apocalyptic condition. Jedis are lost. Planets were destroyed and we could only see the ruins. Everything is generally dark and foreboding and dangerous, with zombie sith running around and everything.

THEN

I got KOTOR 1, when everything is still shiny, JEDI AND SITH ARE EVERYWHERE, epic adventure abound, and it explain things from the first game. I felt like I was playing a legend, an epic legend, the legendary revan.

IT. WAS. FRAKKIN. AWESOME.

I hereby recommend that from now on, people must play the second game first.

....

God I envy you.

But it won't change to me that KOTOR2 is, to me, on a different scale of awesomeness than KOTOR1 ever will be. KOTOR1 bores me, as the dialogue and the characters are... bi-dimensional. The most interesting is Jolee Bindoo, but that makes him the ONLY interesting character. And then again, he is a lot like Kreia, but less Mentor-ish like.

While I'm having a kick of playing KOTOR2 again and again, with different dialogue choices here and there. My current Sith Cousular/Assassin gunslinger is awesome. The dialogue choice at Oberon of requiring to the General Vaklu ALL of their Force Sensitive Children as a proper tribute for your help is... awwww..... *extasis* probably the most Dark Side-ish thing I ever done in a good game.

As a Sith, I don't want to murder random people, I want to conquer the f***** galaxy!! I want to be the intelligent leader that will go around, making the right deals with the right people.

KOTOR1 was... come on, tell me exactly what kind of subtelty you can have, except for the Genohorran, when you are being Dark Side?

[shadowxknight]

Where's Closet Skeleton?

Anyway, kotor 2 hold a special place in my heart since it's actually the first kotor that I played.

yes, it's DAMN CONFUSING. I almost didn't understand one single paragraph of it. I kept getting reference on revan or malak or something else, but I don't know who that is. And kreia even got less sense.

But for some reason, it turned the game story into something... mythical. Since I don't even know what happened in the first game (just like the exile) legends and true events got mixed in my head. What actually happened previously? Why did the republic got so destroyed?

It was mind numbingly screwy, but it was awesome in 'i don't have a frakkin clue what's going on here' kind of way.

Then I got kotor 1, and things starting to get more sense. IT WAS AWESOME.

Like what star wars movies supposed to be. With episode 4 first, then episode 1.

Seriously, imagine what's going on in my head.

On KOTOR 2, the republic is almost in a post apocalyptic condition. Jedis are lost. Planets were destroyed and we could only see the ruins. Everything is generally dark and foreboding and dangerous, with zombie sith running around and everything.

THEN

I got KOTOR 1, when everything is still shiny, JEDI AND SITH ARE EVERYWHERE, epic adventure abound, and it explain things from the first game. I felt like I was playing a legend, an epic legend, the legendary revan.

IT. WAS. FRAKKIN. AWESOME.

I hereby recommend that from now on, people must play the second game first.

I almost had the same experience you did.
But I was so confused I stopped playing on the first planet and decided to play the first game.

I actually liked KotOR2's ending more than the first one. I only played through the Light side of both stories, and in the first game it felt like one of those cliched "you did the right thing, and now everyone lives happily ever after".
What I really dislike about KotOR2 is that it doesn't have a sequel yet. Last I heard they are going to make a MMORPG instead. :smallsigh:

[Guancyto]

People have already touched on the "Kreia is an unreliable source of information on Revan," but you who have played the original KotOR should already realize something.

Malak, the toughest sonovagun in KotOR, never had the stones to mess with Revan openly at the apex of his power. Crippled, amnesiac Revan with only a fraction of that power repeatedly kicks the tar out of everybody that gets in his way, ever. Malak's protege? Vivisected. Entire academy of the Sith? A smoking crater. Malak throws armies at you to hope to slow you up a bit.

I mean, it may not feel like it when ingame (especially if you die a lot), but he's the Goddamned Gordon Freeman. Just like most video game protagonists, but it doesn't bother me a bit when someone treats the protagonist of the last game like an unquestionable badass.

What's more, KotOR I never really questions the idea that every last Sith Soldier #34 was once a guy who signed on to protect the Republic. The sequel goes straight to the heart of it with "how the deuce do you get not one person, not a lot of people, but everybody to do that?"

[SolkaTruesilver]

What's more, KotOR I never really questions the idea that every last Sith Soldier #34 was once a guy who signed on to protect the Republic. The sequel goes straight to the heart of it with "how the deuce do you get not one person, not a lot of people, but everybody to do that?"

Amen :smallbiggrin:

KOTOR2 was more of an internal journey of the Exile. He had to face his past, his decisions, his consequences. It should have been: Knight of the Old Republic 2: Exile. "The Sith Lords" is misleading. They might be protagonists, but they aren't the focus of the storyline.

There is lots of foreshadowing of the three main sith lords when you talk to Kreia. In retrospect, it's clear evidence that she is talking about herself when she speak of the Betrayer. But... if somebody went as far as managing to milk the information about them in their first game run, they would be wondering when the Betrayer would be showing its face.. Maybe it is Atris?

Ahh... Atris. Great character. Seriously, that is one major downfall you see there.

The Jedi Masters were... annoying. But I think it was the point. HK-47 was also more... .... he was as violent, but more subtle in his violent. It's like somebody disguising the Katana as an umbrella. He was less open about "kill kill kill", and more about the Hunt, and its consequences. Meeting the HK-50s gave him a lot to think about.

[LurkerInPlayground]

KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.
Uhh . . . Reven was exactly that in KOTOR 1. Canderous just gushes about how manly Revan was in kicking Mandalorian ass. The Jedi says that he was an ideal student who fell for his rebellion and point to him as an Aesop about why it's a good idea to listen to the Council (they're wrong of course).

The whole point Kreia emphasizes this in KOTOR 2 is to establish a point about hero-worship and the nature of leadership. Her early fascination as a Jedi was according to Jedi ideals. Revan personified everything it meant to be a Jedi, who then fell from that ideal. This was a HUGE letdown for Kreia and it completely shredded her worldview.

Contrast this what she sees in the Exile, which is the Death of the Force. This marks a change in Kreia's fundamental outlook on Jedi/Sith philosophy. The Force isn't necessary. Life gets along perfectly well without anybody being aware of it and the Exile is proof of that.

The Jedi ideology does a piss-poor job at teaching its adherents from learning how to take responsibility for their awesome power. It doesn't have enough truth inside the philosophy to do what it's supposed to.


Which to me kind of feels like another way to trivialize the previous game. Honestly, why couldn't Obsidian just go with the Light Side ending, and feature a new character fighting a new Sith Lord rising to take Malak's place?
Because that's boring.

KOTOR 2 is about the awesome responsibility people have when they have incredible powers. How can one manage the use their power for violence without becoming corrupt?

Conflict is a source of strength, but not for the same reasons that the Sith think. And the Jedi insulate themselves from real challenge that would teach them about the true consequences of wielding such strength as they have. When the Council needed to act, they became so afraid of their own strength that they basically stuck their head in the sand.

As such, KOTOR 2 goes in-depth with Kreia's pontifications on Chaos Theory and the interconnectedness of power and its use. It also really puts a human face on war. Even Jedi aren't immune to post-traumatic stress disorder.

Because that kind of awesome power devastates lives and leaves scars throughout the civilization. There's no grand struggle of Good versus Evil. It's just a bunch dogmatic mystic warriors and their estranged and rebellious cousins duking it out while burning the galaxy around them in the process.


This weird, hateful subversion of the first game is my main beef with K2, but I certainly have others, such as the party members: I hated Kreia's horrible nagging, I grew to despise Atton and his backstory felt like that of a pathetic creep (and the voice actor didn't help), and GOTO . . .
Yes, it's basically Planescape Torment. The characters area all deeply flawed and nothing like heroic archetypes. But they're all drawn to a leader who most personifies their suffering, either by empathy (Light Side) or by sheer rage at the unfairness of their lives (Dark Side).


GOTO . . . the guy puts out a huge bounty on the Exile's head, which draws any amount of trouble and homicidal guns-for-hire, eventually capturing him/her (oh, and just how many times in Exile captured/incapacitated in this game!?) and announces that the whole thing has been in order to persuade Exile to DO WHAT HE/SHE WAS ALREADY DOING, DESPITE BEING SEVERELY HAMPERED BY BOUNTY-HUNTER ATTACKS!
I thought the whole point was to get the Exile to stop doing what he was doing. After the Exile ruins his plans, he's forced to settle on staying close to the Exile to try and influence his actions to limit his destructiveness.

He simply blames the Exile for being a walking disaster-zone and would rather kill or imprison him. That's his first choice anyway. But the PC throws a wrench in that plan.


He then proceeds to force himself onto the Ebon Hawk crew, despite being completely useless for anything other than bad attitude. And this despite the fact that a Dark Sider would kill him for the trouble he's caused, and a Light Sider would bring him down for being a damn crime lord! Honestly, my dislike of Kreia, Atton and Mandalore pales in comparison. None of it made sense!
See above. He only cares about the preservation of the Republic. But he really doesn't care about the ideological core of the Republic the way Kreia does. He's a machine and he follows his orders to the word, but not the spirit of his stated goal.

He'd rather that the Exile died to settle the Jedi/Sith sibling spat. So he has to settle for bullying his way into the crew to keep an eye on him. He's not supposed to be nice.


On a lesser NPC-note I was also kind of unimpressed that I could cycle through Mira's entire dialogue and Jedi-fy her a few minutes after she joined the team. It took a lot of the impact out, even though I'll admit I like her the most of all the characters.
Yes, I liked her too.

The "Huntress" is a continuation of the theme in KOTOR 2. The tension in her character is that she's forced use her strenggth to kill in service of a higher cause, even though she dislikes doing so.

[Attilargh]

...KotOR2 is not the new Planescape: Torment. :smallannoyed: While you spend most of the game equally clueless about what's going on, Torment just has a lot more everything, including plot, comprehensibility and actually difficult decisions that are more than just two options to shift your karma meter and one to get you out scot-free. Because really, name three choices that don't have an easy light side answer. Besides the beggar on Nar Shaddaa, which was a laughably crude attempt to hammer the point home.

And rcome on, originality? How much originality does it take to take a bunch of Star Wars names and slap them onto a post-war cyberpunk setting? Because that's what the game's galaxy is like, full of dung, misery and chronically stupid people. I thought I saved this karking galaxy back in the first game, how come it's all suddenly gone down the drain? And where did these millions (And millions!) of Sith come, anyway? The plot, at its core, is nothing special either and amounts to "I am special, therefore everyone tries to kill me". I am of course being unfair, as most plots can be summed up to be equally generic, but really, that's all I got from the game.

And then there's those trying to do the killing. Oh dear. First up, Scarry McLeatherpants, the unstoppable Sith lord with some serious emotional issues and a Scottish accent. Second, Darth Nommy, who wants to eat everything and was never given any proper lines to elevate him into actual characterhood. Which really is too bad, he's one awesome-looking fella. And then we have Kreia. The nagging Devil's advocate turned evil (and ugly), who wants to do nothing less than kill the Force because the writers can't be bothered to disguise their ham-handed meddling in the characters' lives. It's all very meta.

Speaking of ham-handed, Atton's inability to fly safely through laser barrages really got on my nerves.

[LurkerInPlayground]

...KotOR2 is not the new Planescape: Torment. :smallannoyed: While you spend most of the game equally clueless about what's going on, Torment just has a lot more everything, including plot, comprehensibility and actually difficult decisions that are more than just two options to shift your karma meter and one to get you out scot-free. Because really, name three choices that don't have an easy light side answer. Besides the beggar on Nar Shaddaa, which was a laughably crude attempt to hammer the point home.
*shrugs* Way to miss my point. Chris Avellone wrote a good portion of KOTOR2 so he naturally put in a lot of his favorite pet themes.
- Individuals who don't live up to the image that people expect of them, who are in torment and are attracted by a leader who personifies the same qualities. Depending on this leader's choices, he either feeds off their psychological energy or heals a deep personal wound.
- Meditations on the power of Belief. This is appropriate, because like the Planescape multiverse, the Force amplifies the power of Belief. As Ravel asked of the Nameless One: "What can change the nature of a man?" Kreia spends a lot of time emphasizing that it is the war of beliefs that has always mattered. This is reflected in the slow decay of the Mandalorians, the Republic, the Jedi and even the Sith.


And rcome on, originality? How much originality does it take to take a bunch of Star Wars names and slap them onto a post-war cyberpunk setting? Because that's what the game's galaxy is like, full of dung, misery and chronically stupid people. I thought I saved this karking galaxy back in the first game, how come it's all suddenly gone down the drain? And where did these millions (And millions!) of Sith come, anyway? The plot, at its core, is nothing special either and amounts to "I am special, therefore everyone tries to kill me". I am of course being unfair, as most plots can be summed up to be equally generic, but really, that's all I got from the game.
The game is called "The Sith Lords" but, two-of-three were little more than supporting characters. The Sith really aren't that important because the two faces that the Jedi represent are really what drives the conflict.


And then there's those trying to do the killing. Oh dear. First up, Scarry McLeatherpants, the unstoppable Sith lord with some serious emotional issues and a Scottish accent. Second, Darth Nommy, who wants to eat everything and was never given any proper lines to elevate him into actual characterhood. Which really is too bad, he's one awesome-looking fella. And then we have Kreia. The nagging Devil's advocate turned evil (and ugly), who wants to do nothing less than kill the Force because the writers can't be bothered to disguise their ham-handed meddling in the characters' lives. It's all very meta.
Yes, the point of Darth Nihilus was to underscore Kreia's point about the weakness of the mainline dogma of Sith philosophy. When you get around to beating him, he's nothing more than a lot of mystique built-up around an innately weak person. He has become so dependent upon his power that he literally cannot function without it -- he becomes a parasite. This is effectively what Kreia's rant about the value of not using the Force as a form of insulation from challenge. This is what Visas Marr realises when she says the line, "I saw only a man."

Scary McLeatherpants is essentially a man held together by the raw force of belief. And it's appropriate, given the themes, that you kill him by arguing him out of existence (surprise! that happened in Torment).

The important thing is that there is also a fundamental shift in his dynamic with Kreia. He is supposed to come across as rebellious child who is seeking the approval of the mentor that he has a hate-love relationship with. But Kreia dropped him hard as a disappointment compared to students like the Exile and Revan, who she furnished more affection and love on. A lot of Kreia's motives become clearer when you partially think of her as a jealously defensive mother. A male Exile is a source of jealousy for him while a female Exile becomes somebody he sympathizes and loves. Either way he fully expects the Exile to get burned by Kreia.

Kreia is strongly implied to be Echani, and possibly the Handmaiden's mother.

This would explain her rather idiosyncratic views as both a Jedi and the Sith. She's terribly bad at being either because her position is usually a lot more nuanced than the dogma she is given. As a Jedi, she believes conflict is a source of strength that brings self-knowledge, a particularly Echani view. This is partly why she got kicked out of the Jedi club, because her views were taken to be particularly un-Jedi-like. Jolee Bindo from the first game points out how the Jedi actually shut-off ever having to deal with strong emotions like love, and thus stunt their emotional development.

As a Sith, she believes in self-restraint and mindfulness, rather than reckless emotionality and abandon; also a view that is particularly Echani. The Echani, like the Mandalorians, view conflict as an opportunity for knowledge. But unlike the Mandalorians, they value foresight and self-restraint. That was the point of Handmaiden's character -- she fleshed out the motives and history of the villainess. Of course, for her Sith students, having to sit still and behave isn't what they want to do -- so they call her weak and kick her out a lot more violently.

If killing off the Force sounds petty and vengeful, it's supposed to be. She's gotten burned by people who never really deserved to have the kind of power that they got. Rather than permitting the abuse of such power again, she'd rather poison the well to keep people out of it altogether. Kreia's a philosophical anarchist. And part of her motive for taking on the Exile as a student was to prove to the Council that they were might've been wrong about something. (Killing the Council was never her stated motive.)

Of course whether it was Kreia or Atris who tried to kill the Force was originally slated to depend on the player's actions.

Atris, likewise, was supposed to explain part of who Kreia used to be because both characters are similar. One is essentially an older version of the other. The dialogue between Atris and Kreia holds a certain poetry because it's a moment where Kreia comes full-circle, coming face-to-face with a younger version of herself who is struggling with the same identity issues that she did.


Speaking of ham-handed, Atton's inability to fly safely through laser barrages really got on my nerves.
But it's such a rich Star Wars tradition to crash ships due to pure recklessness on the part of the pilot. It's really quite funny actually.

[Jibar]

I don't have much to add, other than this Lets Play (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html) which goes a lot into the intricacies and philosophy of the plot and also demonstrates just how cool G0T0 is to have around. He's very much a character for conversations, not combat, just like Kreia. Having them with you will reveal lots about both their characters and your own.
Oh, and I am a huge Revan fanboy, to the point that I would pay the stupid prices for a couple textures if they ever released Revan as a skin in The Force Unleashed. And I ain't ashamed. If I was Revan would have sent me to command Malachor.

[Zarah]

I thought I saved this karking galaxy back in the first game, how come it's all suddenly gone down the drain? And where did these millions (And millions!) of Sith come, anyway?
When exactly was it made clear that the Sith Empire was completely defeated? They lost the Star Forge, yes, but that hardly means the rest of their assets spread across the galaxy suddenly disappeared. It's the same thing that happened after Return of the Jedi. The Emperor was destroyed and the Death Star was toast, but that hardly means the Empire itself was out for the count. The Alliance still had a hell of a fight on their hands.

They were disorganized, yes, but they were still there.

[Toastkart]

KOTOR 2 is about the awesome responsibility people have when they have incredible powers. How can one manage the use their power for violence without becoming corrupt?

Conflict is a source of strength, but not for the same reasons that the Sith think. And the Jedi insulate themselves from real challenge that would teach them about the true consequences of wielding such strength as they have. When the Council needed to act, they became so afraid of their own strength that they basically stuck their head in the sand.

As such, KOTOR 2 goes in-depth with Kreia's pontifications on Chaos Theory and the interconnectedness of power and its use. It also really puts a human face on war. Even Jedi aren't immune to post-traumatic stress disorder.

Because that kind of awesome power devastates lives and leaves scars throughout the civilization. There's no grand struggle of Good versus Evil. It's just a bunch dogmatic mystic warriors and their estranged and rebellious cousins duking it out while burning the galaxy around them in the process.

Couldn't have said this better myself and I wish I had.


And then there's those trying to do the killing. Oh dear. First up, Scarry McLeatherpants, the unstoppable Sith lord with some serious emotional issues and a Scottish accent. Second, Darth Nommy, who wants to eat everything and was never given any proper lines to elevate him into actual characterhood. Which really is too bad, he's one awesome-looking fella.

Perhaps you missed the point of the whole thing. The Sith Lords and the Jedi Masters were used, very eloquently I might add, to show the dangers of dependency on the Force. There's a reason that Darth Nihilus is shallow as a character. He's not a character anymore, he's a mystical force of nature that's built up through fear and exposition and in the end he turns out to be just a man (i.e. nothing special). Why? Because his dependency on the Force made him weak and a shell of his former self.

Darth Sion, as someone else mentioned, is the most complex of the Sith Lords, due to his relationship with Kreia. Don't forget that for Sith to surpass their teachers they have to kill them, something Sion was never able to do, and it gave him a bit of a complex.


And then we have Kreia. The nagging Devil's advocate turned evil (and ugly), who wants to do nothing less than kill the Force because the writers can't be bothered to disguise their ham-handed meddling in the characters' lives. It's all very meta.

I very much disagree with you. Kreia's reasons for wanting to cause the death of the Force are quite clear, even though I don't take her word for it, and you shouldn't either. When was Kreia ever 100% truthful? Hell even 50% truthful? Why do you assume that the death of the Force was her real motivation?

As for Kreia herself, it's still very unclear whether she or Atris, or both, is the Lord of Betrayal in its fullest sense. Yeah, she was a bit of a nag, but then, she's advocating Force Neutrality, not extremism which is what we're used to from star wars. Similarly, she is a liar and manipulator, so you can't take anything she says at face value, but the reason she is is so that you will understand that you can't take what others, especially the Jedi Masters, say at face value either.


If killing off the Force sounds petty and vengeful, it's supposed to be. She's gotten burned by people who never really deserved to have the kind of power that they got. Rather than permitting the abuse of such power again, she'd rather poison the well to keep people out of it altogether. Kreia's a philosophical anarchist. And part of her motive for taking on the Exile as a student was to prove to the Council that they were might've been wrong about something. (Killing the Council was never her stated motive.)

Or, you know, everyone could be taking the 'death of the Force' line entirely too literally. I always got the sense that Kreia was talking about the death of dependency on the Force. I mean, look at what she did. By the time the Exile follows her to Malachor V, both the Sith and the Jedi are broken into ruin and the only task left for the Exile is to surpass her teacher and continue the lesson of a philosophy that is distinctly neither Jedi nor Sith.

Kreia went to Malachor to die.

She spent time as a teacher of both the Jedi and the Sith, and she took the best of both worlds and built it into her own philosophy. For the Sith, the only way to surpass a teacher is to kill her. Sion couldn't do it, apparently, otherwise he would have when he and Nihilus ganged up on her. The Exile could. The Exile already made that choice when she destroyed a planet, her own forces, and an enemy that was for all intents and purposes already beaten.

I agree with you overall, though. Kreia's purpose in teaching the Exile was to show the Jedi Masters that someone could live without the Force, without being dependent on it.


Atris, likewise, was supposed to explain part of who Kreia used to be because both characters are similar. One is essentially an older version of the other. The dialogue between Atris and Kreia holds a certain poetry because it's a moment where Kreia comes full-circle, coming face-to-face with a younger version of herself who is struggling with the same identity issues that she did.

I always saw this scene as Kreia passing on the mantel of the Sith Lord of Betrayal to Atris. It's almost explicitly stated that Atris fell to the dark side because she didn't make the choice that she knew was right. Atris betrayed her Self.

[Joran]

For those who really enjoyed the storyline of KotOR 2, could it have been moved to another era of Star Wars and still retain its impact? In other words, were the events and characters of KotOR 1 important to KotOR 2?

I played KotOR 2 and disliked it. It definitely felt incomplete and my immersion was completely ruined when I found what supposedly happened to Revan. I played Revan as Dark Side in KotOR 1 and I LIKED my Revan.

I think that probably ruined whatever enjoyment I was going to get out of the game and if they just had moved it to another era of Star Wars, and had each game storyline independent of each other, I may have enjoyed it a lot more.

[Sequinox]

G0-T0, well... everybody hates G0-T0. Luckily, you scarcely have to interact with him - not at all after he joins the Ebon Hawk crew. He's never a mandatory companion.

... I thought he was funny... THough I might be getting him confused with HK-47, who was totally awesome. I seem to remember Goto being a sort of straight man, who's really, really arrogant when in reality he's just some little black droid. When I found that out I laughed.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Or, you know, everyone could be taking the 'death of the Force' line entirely too literally. I always got the sense that Kreia was talking about the death of dependency on the Force. I mean, look at what she did. By the time the Exile follows her to Malachor V, both the Sith and the Jedi are broken into ruin and the only task left for the Exile is to surpass her teacher and continue the lesson of a philosophy that is distinctly neither Jedi nor Sith.

Kreia went to Malachor to die.
I don't take it literally. She didn't intend to "kill" the Force originally, I feel that was more a development *after* she realized that the Council was a lost cause and wouldn't have changed its ways no matter what she did.

The thing is that she wants to leave "echoes," spark tragedies in order to defean Force sensitives to the Force entirely. How she intended to do this wasn't entirely clear, but I think it was originally intended to involve the Shadow Mass Generator or some other McGuffin like Force sorcery.

Point being, the ones who did what the Exile did deserved to live while the ones who couldn't live without their Force dependency died off. The non-users aren't themselves directly affected.

I seriously doubt she was lying about that since she it seems like just the sort of thing that she'd be motivated to do.


I always saw this scene as Kreia passing on the mantel of the Sith Lord of Betrayal to Atris. It's almost explicitly stated that Atris fell to the dark side because she didn't make the choice that she knew was right. Atris betrayed her Self.
Yes. Kreia was giving Atris a push in the "right" direction. Propagating her philosophy by subtle manipulation. It's implied though that Atris could have taken Kreia's place depending on the Exile's actions, so that you would face either Atris or Kreia depending on the player's decisions. That was scrapped though.

But more than that, it's implied that Kreia are also both Echani and that they were both librarians and a more intellectual sort of Jedi. And they both came smack-dab with a problem with the Jedi around them being less-than-ideal demigods.

[LurkerInPlayground]

For those who really enjoyed the storyline of KotOR 2, could it have been moved to another era of Star Wars and still retain its impact? In other words, were the events and characters of KotOR 1 important to KotOR 2?
I think it was certainly workable. But a lot of what KOTOR 1 picked up on was inspired partly by some ideas that George Lucas took a mild stab at but never carried through on. (Because he's George Lucas) You'll note that the same dogmatic and repressed Council exists in his prequels.

But of course, the Jedi are still the good guys, even if they have a bevy of silly superstitions, a certain level of crass fundamentalism and the thinking skills that operate on a concrete level. And for some reason nobody challenges them on it. Ever. Well except the Sith, but they don't really count because they have the subtlety of a 14-year old emo kid.

Even Yoda's little "Not this crude matter are we" rant stinks of a deep suspicion of the material world and you then question if he really was that wise. (Because apparently it's just so horrible being made of meat.)

Chris Avellone simply took his own personal spin on it and also ran with the idea of a Jedi with post-tramautic stress disorder. Needless to say, I think this is made of win.


I played KotOR 2 and disliked it. It definitely felt incomplete and my immersion was completely ruined when I found what supposedly happened to Revan. I played Revan as Dark Side in KotOR 1 and I LIKED my Revan.
Well, Obsidian did rush the game out of development, which is partly their fault for not signing a longer contract with Lucas Arts. But I don't know what the problem is since you could choose whether Revan was male/female or light side/dark side with your initial dialogue with Atton.

Basically the conversation has Atton claming that Revan was a woman and you can either choose to "correct him" or run with it.


I think that probably ruined whatever enjoyment I was going to get out of the game and if they just had moved it to another era of Star Wars, and had each game storyline independent of each other, I may have enjoyed it a lot more.
Ahh yes. . .tangent. Moving back to the whether KOTOR 2 had to be in the same era. . .yes, I think it helps.

The Mandalorian and the Echani are perfect cultural setpieces as is the dogmatic and imperfect Jedi Council and the Jedi Civil War. And they're used well to characterize the common people and main characters who have to live with all of it.

It's strongly hinted that the Jedi Council in KOTOR 1 was a bit more arrogant than it had a right to be. Just spend some time listening to Jolee Bindo's dialogue and you'll see what I mean. In KOTOR 1, they never really spend a whole lot of time meditating on the notion that the Jedi were actually wrong about the Power of Love or that they were actually responsible for training some of the most dangerous and dysfunctional people in the galaxy.

KOTOR 2 does that. The great reluctance of the Council to go to war was a great plot hook about the anomie that was taking root within the Jedi Order. Whatever the code was, it didn't equip Jedi for war. Or more importantly, how they could survive ideologically in spite of it.

It's also a great setting when the Republic, the Jedi, the Sith and the Mandalorians are all slowly slipping into irrelevance and obscurity because they're all dying a spiritual death.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I played KotOR 2 and disliked it. It definitely felt incomplete and my immersion was completely ruined when I found what supposedly happened to Revan. I played Revan as Dark Side in KotOR 1 and I LIKED my Revan.


This is a mistake many people do when they think about KOTOR2 with the eyes of KOTOR1. They think "Revan" was their player character.

If you define one's personnality/being based on their memory and experience, then the player character of KOTOR1 wasn't "Revan" but in shell and power. He wasn't "Revan" in thinking. It is heavily hinted (should I say blatantly exposed?) that shortly after the end of KOTOR1, he regained all his memory, and then... everything changed.

It didn't matter if he took the Light Side or Dark Side path to regain his memories, he was still Revan. A character that was beyond the scope of any PC in a computer game. Whatever you had played was... an interreign. When the "real" Revan kicked in, your character simply ceased to be, since he fully embraced his former self.

I think Obsidian did a good job already to give you the option to choose dark/light side, and male/female. What could you expect more?

Seriously, people wanted to play the same game over again?

[Pronounceable]

For those who really enjoyed the storyline of KotOR 2, could it have been moved to another era of Star Wars and still retain its impact? In other words, were the events and characters of KotOR 1 important to KotOR 2?

Those aren't the same question. Yes, KotoR2 plot can work in any SW era where a big battle involving jedi is just over (which is the whole frakking timeline). And it'd rock again thanks to Kreia and a PSTD jedi protagonist. And no, KotoR isn't very important to KotoR2. The only relevant point is Revan returning to exact revenge on Malak. Stuff like Star Forge, Bastila and even Revan's capture and brainwash has no bearing on KotoR2 plot.


This is a mistake many people do when they think about KOTOR2 with the eyes of KOTOR1. They think "Revan" was their player character.

If you define one's personnality/being based on their memory and experience, then the player character of KOTOR1 wasn't "Revan" but in shell and power. He wasn't "Revan" in thinking. It is heavily hinted (should I say blatantly exposed?) that shortly after the end of KOTOR1, he regained all his memory, and then... everything changed.

You know, I hadn't noticed that. KotoR PC is just a fragment of her real self (yes, her, she was a darksider and the one authority that's the least fit to decide something about SW is LucasArts itself), an "incarnation" of Revan. Like we didn't get to use TNO after he's fully restored, we don't get to play Revan. Score another one for Avellone!


Seriously, people wanted to play the same game over again?
Obviously, having watched the same story before playing it wasn't enough...

[Zarah]

You know, I hadn't noticed that. KotoR PC is just a fragment of her real self (yes, her, she was a darksider and the one authority that's the least fit to decide something about SW is LucasArts itself), an "incarnation" of Revan.
I know it's a choice for the player and all, but Revan is canonically male, just like the Exile is canonically female. And LucasArts didn't decide that. The rest of SW canon did.

Not that it matters or anything, it just bugs me. :smalltongue:

[LurkerInPlayground]

I know it's a choice for the player and all, but Revan is canonically male, just like the Exile is canonically female. And LucasArts didn't decide that. The rest of SW canon did.

Not that it matters or anything, it just bugs me. :smalltongue:
Bah, the male Exile is more interesting simply because of Handmaiden. If anything it should be Revan who is female while the Exile male.

[Zarah]

Bah, the male Exile is more interesting simply because of Handmaiden. If anything it should be Revan who is female while the Exile male.

Actually, IIRC, according to canon the Handmaiden was there with the female Exile also, even though it never happened in the game itself.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Bah, the male Exile is more interesting simply because of Handmaiden. If anything it should be Revan who is female while the Exile male.

Actually, look at it this way:

The "Canon" ending of KOTOR2 wants a Female Light Side Exile. Which means it's Disciple who is left to create the new Jedi Order, with a much open philosophy.

But, the only other Force Sensitive character left is... Handmaiden. That is right, Handmaiden will be the one to regroup the Sith. (Personnal theory)

Dark Side Handmaiden is just sexy :smallamused: I'd say it's a win for everyone.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Actually, look at it this way:

The "Canon" ending of KOTOR2 wants a Female Light Side Exile. Which means it's Disciple who is left to create the new Jedi Order, with a much open philosophy.

But, the only other Force Sensitive character left is... Handmaiden. That is right, Handmaiden will be the one to regroup the Sith. (Personnal theory)

Dark Side Handmaiden is just sexy :smallamused: I'd say it's a win for everyone.
A light-side male would have a light-side Handmaiden. She goes onto being a Jedi librarian like both her foster mother and her biological mother, according to Kreia's prediction.

Disciple? Screw that. Handmaiden gives you a cultural lesson on the Echani and hands you a major key to Kreia's motivations. The Disciple just tells you that he's a fan of the Jedi Order.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Eh, Canon Ending = Female Light Side Exile.

So, Canon Ending = Light Side Disciple.


Which means, Handmaiden will probably seek revenge on the Jedi, and become Dark Side! I agree with you that Handmaiden is much more interesting character to have. Which is why I hope they put her in charge of the Sith later on, as "canonically", she have no link to the story now... :smalleek:

And have you seen the pic of Dark Side Handmaiden? :smallredface:

[Zarah]

Which means, Handmaiden will probably seek revenge on the Jedi, and become Dark Side! I agree with you that Handmaiden is much more interesting character to have. Which is why I hope they put her in charge of the Sith later on, as "canonically", she have no link to the story now... :smalleek:
*Cough*


When Leland Chee was asked if, with the Jedi Exile being a female, Brianna still traveled with the Jedi Exile, he answered with a simple "maybe." A recent preview for the upcoming Star Wars Miniatures Knights of the Old Republic set confirmed that Brianna did indeed accompany the Exile.
I'm not sure if you're just talking about your own personal sort of canon, but as far as official word goes, Brianna was there with the female Exile. After KotOR2, she went and rebuilt the Jedi order along with the Disciple (Mical) and possibly the remaining characters. Sorry to crush any of your hopes, but yeah. :smalltongue:

[Mewtarthio]

Just to get back to Revan:


I guess the root of the problem is that Obsidian tried to make the Light Side and Dark Side endings of K1 equally viable (which makes no sense, given that a Dark Side Revan ends the game with the Star Forge and Bastila, and basically invincible with nothing left to stand against him), and so went with that whole "Ah, but Dark Side Revan never actually fell FOR REALZ! He made a calculated decision to join the dark side, revive the horrible Sith order of psychopathic megalomaniacs, and wage horrible in order to strengthen the Republic! He never lost sight of that, and always had everyone's best interests at heart!"

[...]

KOTOR 2 basically turns Revan into some kind of all-knowing, infallible demigod, described as 'like looking into the heart of the Force!", rather than just a brilliant, charismatic strategist, who started out with good intentions, then got corrupted and became classic example of how everyone can go wrong.

Er, did you miss the part where he uses the Mass Shadow Generator to wipe out not only the Mandalorians but also a good chunk of his own men (having first ensured that the collateral damage will mostly be guys who might not want to join the Dark Side with him), thereby setting off a horrible echo of pain in the Force that could eventually destroy Jedi and Sith alike? And this was before he discovered the Trayus Academy?

Seriously, Revan may have been careful not to cause excess damage to infrastructure when he invaded the Republic, but that just makes him smarter than Malak. His stated goal may have been to defend the Republic from the True Sith, but this is a guy who thinks that political change is best effected through galaxy-spanning warfare--He would have been a tyrant. Had he really been an "all-knowing, infallible demigod" who "always had everyone's best interests at heart," he'd have revealed the existence of the True Sith to everyone, trusting his own charisma and the high tide of public support he'd have received following his victory to get the Republic in motion.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I'm not sure if you're just talking about your own personal sort of canon, but as far as official word goes, Brianna was there with the female Exile. After KotOR2, she went and rebuilt the Jedi order along with the Disciple (Mical) and possibly the remaining characters. Sorry to crush any of your hopes, but yeah. :smalltongue:

Oh my God. You are right. This is true. All the time, it was... It finally happened... :smallfrown:

You Maniacs! You screwed it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell! :smallfurious:

[Pronounceable]

I'm not sure if you're just talking about your own personal sort of canon, but as far as official word goes, Brianna was there with the female Exile. After KotOR2, she went and rebuilt the Jedi order along with the Disciple (Mical) and possibly the remaining characters. Sorry to crush any of your hopes, but yeah.

Bah! Next, they'll claim there was a race of teddy bears that defeated imperial stormtroopers with sticks and stones.

Crazy crap like that is the reason I'd take taxi drivers union of Napoli's word over "official SW canon".

[Joran]

This is a mistake many people do when they think about KOTOR2 with the eyes of KOTOR1. They think "Revan" was their player character.

If you define one's personnality/being based on their memory and experience, then the player character of KOTOR1 wasn't "Revan" but in shell and power. He wasn't "Revan" in thinking. It is heavily hinted (should I say blatantly exposed?) that shortly after the end of KOTOR1, he regained all his memory, and then... everything changed.

It didn't matter if he took the Light Side or Dark Side path to regain his memories, he was still Revan. A character that was beyond the scope of any PC in a computer game. Whatever you had played was... an interreign. When the "real" Revan kicked in, your character simply ceased to be, since he fully embraced his former self.

I think Obsidian did a good job already to give you the option to choose dark/light side, and male/female. What could you expect more?

Seriously, people wanted to play the same game over again?

So, basically the first game didn't matter. That is what bothered me; the first game convinced me that my actions mattered, and then the second game basically said my first game didn't matter at all. This was probably a mistake by the developers, especially since Revan was basically a blank slate for the player to inhabit.

Why else would Revan be wearing a mask and the gender intentionally never mentioned? Why leave a multitude of choices for the character to make and also have two alternate endings? Revan, the character, was meant to represent the player. So, when the second game came around and said, "Remember all that time you took crafting your character and the impact your character supposedly had on the Galaxy? Surprise! It didn't matter, NOTHING YOU DID IN THE FIRST GAME MATTERED". It basically tried to minimize all the enjoyment I got out of KotOR 1 and I REALLY LIKED KotOR 1. This is why I couldn't enjoy KotOR 2; it's a visceral, emotional reaction, sorry for the caps.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Your character wasn't Revan.

Your character was what Revan became, when (s)he was ripped of her memories and core skills.

As for "having an impact on the Galaxy", well.. see it this way: either the Republic won, or the Sith did.

If the Republic won, it was in a very, very bad shape. VERY bad shape, and the post-war galaxy is struggling, with only the remaining siths around, like in KOTOR2

If the Sith won, Revan left shortly afterward for the Unknown region. The remaining Sith fought themselves for leadership (as it is Their Way), and the Republic managed, in a last desperate strike, to beat them. The post-war galaxy is struggling, and only a few remaining Siths are still around.

Wholly, it removed the political aspect. Transforming the actions of Revan pre-KOTOR1 into a war not against the Republic and it's infrastructure, but against the Jedi. Malak was stupid, and fought the Republic.

KOTOR2's sorry state of the galaxy would have happened both ways.

[Philistine]

So, basically the first game didn't matter. That is what bothered me; the first game convinced me that my actions mattered, and then the second game basically said my first game didn't matter at all. This was probably a mistake by the developers, especially since Revan was basically a blank slate for the player to inhabit.

Why else would Revan be wearing a mask and the gender intentionally never mentioned? Why leave a multitude of choices for the character to make and also have two alternate endings? Revan, the character, was meant to represent the player. So, when the second game came around and said, "Remember all that time you took crafting your character and the impact your character supposedly had on the Galaxy? Surprise! It didn't matter, NOTHING YOU DID IN THE FIRST GAME MATTERED". It basically tried to minimize all the enjoyment I got out of KotOR 1 and I REALLY LIKED KotOR 1. This is why I couldn't enjoy KotOR 2; it's a visceral, emotional reaction, sorry for the caps.

Yeah, but... you stated before that you went DS in the first game. So nothing you did in that game would have mattered anyway, because it's a virtual certainty that if OE had been forced to pick one ending to enforce in the second game, LA would have dictated that it be the LS ending. That's how LA rolls. Would you rather they'd said "Nothing you did in the first game ever happened"? Because that's what the alternative would be.

[Yora]

I think KotOR was a nice game, but I never had the intention of playing KotOR 2. And that's exactly because there's so much stuff told about the game, that makes me think that it's highly likely I might hate it and get the good stuff from the first game all twisted up.
I think I'd rather remain with the first game and be happy with how it was.

[Joran]

Your character wasn't Revan.

Your character was what Revan became, when (s)he was ripped of her memories and core skills.

If the Sith won, Revan left shortly afterward for the Unknown region.

And this is where we diverge. Revan is mine, because I made the decisions, influenced the outcome, got emotionally invested and identified myself with the character. I don't care what LucasArts says, I know what my version of Revan would do because I created her.

If it was a standard JRPG, where everything is railroaded, I wouldn't have this feeling. However, because KotOR 1 was open-ended, it was less of a story I was watching and instead a story I was participating in. Basically, it felt like the developers railroaded the ending of KotOR 1 into KotOR 2, and didn't allow me to decide what happened to MY character and just handed me a different character and expect me to forget about my previous character.

[SolkaTruesilver]

And this is where we diverge. Revan is mine, because I made the decisions, influenced the outcome, got emotionally invested and identified myself with the character. I don't care what LucasArts says, I know what my version of Revan would do because I created her.
.

And this is where you are wrong. Your character started to live on the Endar Spire. Revan lead the Republic forces against the Mandalorians brillantly, and then the Sith against the Jedi. Your character found a droid in Tatooine, and have been told that it was his. Revan built that droid, defined its personnality.

Revan isn't your character. Your character may have Revan's gift when it comes to the Force and capacities, but Revan is the mastermind that took the initiative and lead two great wars.

I don't see your character being anything near a mastermind.

[Joran]

And this is where you are wrong. Your character started to live on the Endar Spire. Revan lead the Republic forces against the Mandalorians brillantly, and then the Sith against the Jedi. Your character found a droid in Tatooine, and have been told that it was his. Revan built that droid, defined its personnality.

Revan isn't your character. Your character may have Revan's gift when it comes to the Force and capacities, but Revan is the mastermind that took the initiative and lead two great wars.

I don't see your character being anything near a mastermind.

You're correct, that Revan is dead. MY Revan took over and that's who I played through in the game. They probably should have included a bridge game, maybe an expansion so I can feel happy about where the story of MY Revan ended. But they didn't, so I felt unhappy and that is the primary reason why I didn't like KotOR 2. I felt happy where KotOR 1 ended, it felt like a natural ending, either way, but KotOR 2 ruined that natural ending by asserting to me what MY character did afterwards.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You're correct, that Revan is dead. MY Revan took over and that's who I played through in the game. They probably should have included a bridge game, maybe an expansion so I can feel happy about where the story of MY Revan ended. But they didn't, so I felt unhappy and that is the primary reason why I didn't like KotOR 2. I felt happy where KotOR 1 ended, it felt like a natural ending, either way, but KotOR 2 ruined that natural ending by asserting to me what MY character did afterwards.

YOUR character died, and Revan came back to life. YOUR character ceased to exist after KOTOR1, and Revan acted in character immediately following his period.

YOUR character only existed for the short period of KOTOR1. Never before, never after, except in the memory of Revan's prodigious mind. And I am sure even him discard the actions he took at that time as menial, since he wasn't him/herself.

When you think about it, it's a very satisfying schizophroenic plot point. I am sure that Revan even had the chance to re-evaluate it's actions, based on the fresh perspective he got during his... diminished time. But that didn't changed who he was. And whoever he was, deep down, it wasn't the Player Character.

[LurkerInPlayground]

So, basically the first game didn't matter. That is what bothered me; the first game convinced me that my actions mattered, and then the second game basically said my first game didn't matter at all. This was probably a mistake by the developers, especially since Revan was basically a blank slate for the player to inhabit.

Why else would Revan be wearing a mask and the gender intentionally never mentioned? Why leave a multitude of choices for the character to make and also have two alternate endings? Revan, the character, was meant to represent the player. So, when the second game came around and said, "Remember all that time you took crafting your character and the impact your character supposedly had on the Galaxy? Surprise! It didn't matter, NOTHING YOU DID IN THE FIRST GAME MATTERED". It basically tried to minimize all the enjoyment I got out of KotOR 1 and I REALLY LIKED KotOR 1. This is why I couldn't enjoy KotOR 2; it's a visceral, emotional reaction, sorry for the caps.
The PC you played in KOTOR 1 had an impact on his setting because it was scripted for him. KOTOR 2 isn't doing anything to your character that it hasn't done already in KOTOR 1. Don't give me the "free will" tripe, because your chosen character had the story that he had because Bioware arbitrarily decided it. Obsidian, specifically Chis Avellone, just wrote a different epilogue than Bioware probably would have used.

That's what I don't get about you. Both games exist in nearly seperate continuities anyway, with KOTOR 2 exploring some of the implications of the Star Wars and KOTOR setting that were never touched upon. If it pleases you to think that KOTOR 1 ended happily ever after, then that's your prerogative. Not that it really matters because your character's story was still over in KOTOR 2.

Besides, screw that protagonist. He was boring.

[Mando Knight]

I like Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster)-Revan. From Canderous's accounts of the Mandalorian Wars in KotOR 1, that's pretty much what I believed Revan was like anyway...

[Pronounceable]

NOTHING YOU DID IN THE FIRST GAME MATTERED
Yep. So? Whatever happens, it'll all be moot in some thousand years when some councilor hijacks the Republic and no one will give a damn what happened back then.


It basically tried to minimize all the enjoyment I got out of KotOR 1
Wha?


Revan Charname was basically a blank slate for the player to inhabit.

Besides, screw that protagonist. He was boring.
QFT. There's a reason why the Nameless One is the greatest CRPG protagonist of all time.

[Joran]

YOUR character died, and Revan came back to life. YOUR character ceased to exist after KOTOR1, and Revan acted in character immediately following his period.

YOUR character only existed for the short period of KOTOR1. Never before, never after, except in the memory of Revan's prodigious mind. And I am sure even him discard the actions he took at that time as menial, since he wasn't him/herself.

When you think about it, it's a very satisfying schizophroenic plot point. I am sure that Revan even had the chance to re-evaluate it's actions, based on the fresh perspective he got during his... diminished time. But that didn't changed who he was. And whoever he was, deep down, it wasn't the Player Character.

It's a very good plot point, but I never saw it nor did I get the chance to play it out. I'm just assured via a few lines in the dialogue that that's what happened. A bridge between the games would have softened the blow and yielded another fun game. Instead because of the lack of the bridge, I felt a huge disconnect between what I did in KotOR 1 and what happened in KotOR 2.

To sum up and try to explain once again, we're basically arguing about who is Revan and who gets to say what happened to Revan. Because Revan is a video character and starts as a blank slate, the player is invited to identify themselves with the character and determine what the character does; in essence, to invest emotionally into the character. This is exactly what happened and I felt emotionally betrayed when the developers of KotOR 2 seized control of the character.

If they instead added a epilogue to KotOR 1, which played out the real Revan's personality, then I'd probably feel better about it. Or even a cut-scene where Revan's voice spoke into my character's ear. However, the end of KotOR 1 was a standard "and everyone lived happily ever after", and thus a direct sequel felt like it was hammered on.

[averagejoe]

What I can say about 2:

The outfits were much cooler. The jedi robes in 1 were pretty weaksauce. And, for the most part, not robes.

Darth Cuts-Himself and Darth Psychic-Vampire were much cooler villains than Malak, who was always kinda lame.

The 2 party was, for the most part, much weaker in terms of character than the first one.

However, I was disappointed with the second half of KOTOR 1. I loved my Regular Guy, and thought it was pretty lame when he turned out to have force powers, and even more lame when he turned out to be the Revan. They were like, "Nope, this isn't your character, your character is actually someone different." It would have been fine if he'd started as a jedi, but instead I get all invested in this awesome guy and he gets yanked out from under me. Bother that noise. Plus it went from, "Infiltrating the underworld of this planet to save our MacGuffin comrade amongst intrigue and danger on all sides," to, "Generic Star Wars plot, only with maps. It is epic because we tell you so." Lame. KOTOR 2 was at least straight with you on this point.

I mean, in hindsight I should have seen becoming a jedi coming, but they could at least have giving us a choice. Someone called it a more open game than a JRPG, but I felt pretty damn railroaded, made worse by the fact that they presented it as something else.

I was disappointed by the dark side option in 2, however. I tried to play a dark side guy, but I just couldn't manage it because you have to be such a jerk. You have all these conversations where your ally is like, "Maybe we should do this," and your options are,

1. Yes, that is a helpful assessment and useful information. I will take this under consideration.
2. I will tell you your opinion if I require it, if I debase myself so much as to even think of you. Speak to me again and I'll use your intestines for a jump rope, you sack of crap.

However, choosing 1) gives light side points, even though it seemed like the "smart" response, not the "good" response. That just annoyed me.

Overall, 2 was fun. I don't care what it did to the plot of 1, because it was a pretty weak plot past Taris, and your guy becomes utterly forgettable.

[SolkaTruesilver]

To sum up and try to explain once again, we're basically arguing about who is Revan and who gets to say what happened to Revan. Because Revan is a video character and starts as a blank slate, the player is invited to identify themselves with the character and determine what the character does; in essence, to invest emotionally into the character. This is exactly what happened and I felt emotionally betrayed when the developers of KotOR 2 seized control of the character.


Revan wasn't a blank state at all. Revan was the character you heard about from the different expositions in the game.

CharName was a blank state. CharName =/= Revan.

Maybe the final memory restoration of Revan, leading to the death of CharName, wasn't originally thought about. But leaving a stupid opening for a sequel would have been a bad idea. In most movies/book/game, giving a hint at a sequel never works well, and an epilogue about "Revan's final restoration" would have diluted the ending of the game.

But a game is a game, and is self-containted. The sequel has to take a proper take on the previous game, and take it somewhere else. KOTOR2 have done so, and decided that Revan really came back after KOTOR1. It set a good atmosphere in KOTOR2, where just because you won the day in KOTOR1, it didn't mean that you solved all of the Galaxy's problems.

[Joran]

Revan wasn't a blank state at all. Revan was the character you heard about from the different expositions in the game.

CharName was a blank state. CharName =/= Revan.

Maybe the final memory restoration of Revan, leading to the death of CharName, wasn't originally thought about. But leaving a stupid opening for a sequel would have been a bad idea. In most movies/book/game, giving a hint at a sequel never works well, and an epilogue about "Revan's final restoration" would have diluted the ending of the game.

But a game is a game, and is self-containted. The sequel has to take a proper take on the previous game, and take it somewhere else. KOTOR2 have done so, and decided that Revan really came back after KOTOR1. It set a good atmosphere in KOTOR2, where just because you won the day in KOTOR1, it didn't mean that you solved all of the Galaxy's problems.


What if my character at the end decided they liked being CharName better than Revan? I agree, I think KotOR 1 works better as a self-contained, stand-alone game without any hint of a sequel, but once the developers of KotOR 2 decided they would continue the story, they should have included a bridge that explains what happened to the Galaxy between KotOR 1 and 2, if not gameplay at least a cutscene of some sort or another.

Instead, they had a small dialogue option where you can "correct" the supporting character.

P.S. They'd have pry the StarForge from my cold, dead hands.

[SolkaTruesilver]

What if my character at the end decided they liked being CharName better than Revan? I agree, I think KotOR 1 works better as a self-contained, stand-alone game without any hint of a sequel, but once the developers of KotOR 2 decided they would continue the story, they should have included a bridge that explains what happened to the Galaxy between KotOR 1 and 2, if not gameplay at least a cutscene of some sort or another.

Instead, they had a small dialogue option where you can "correct" the supporting character.

P.S. They'd have pry the StarForge from my cold, dead hands.

You don't have the choice. Once you get back Revan's memory, you become Revan. The fact that you have the choice between the two means that you know Revan's memory, and the moment you know of Revan's memory, he becomes the major influence on your personnality, and wins over.

CharName lived for.. what? 2-3 months, if we are generous?
Revan lived for decades. Revan wins.


The StarForge was just a tool to achieve swift victory for Revan, and a mean to Supreme Domination for Malak. It was powered with the Force, and was a dangerous and difficult tool to use.

The Light Side ending saw the destruction of the Star Forge. In the case of the Dark Side ending, Revan leave, and the remaining Sith fight over the Empire. The probably mis-used the Star Forge, and destroyed it accidently in the process.

[Joran]

You don't have the choice. Once you get back Revan's memory, you become Revan. The fact that you have the choice between the two means that you know Revan's memory, and the moment you know of Revan's memory, he becomes the major influence on your personnality, and wins over.

CharName lived for.. what? 2-3 months, if we are generous?
Revan lived for decades. Revan wins.

You're arguing logically over something I felt emotionally. Emotion wins. :)

Bioware succeeded in making me care for the storyline and characters, Obsidian did not. That I think is the primary difference why I liked KotOR 1 and not KotOR 2 and obviously other people feel different. Viva la difference!

[Jibar]

Why should you get to hear anything about what happened after KoToR I anyway?
The Exile spent all that time outside known space trying to escape from everything. When she comes back its to a very different galaxy and she has no idea why.
All you hear is literally all you would have heard. You've been on the scene for all of a couple weeks, and you've literally just heard "Revan was about, did some stuff, Light/Dark. Now could you please drink all this juma?"
The Exile hears everything the Exile needs to hear about what Revan did next. And that's what the game is about. The Exile. We are presented with the Exile's story. The Exile's past. The Exile's decisions. What Revan did next does not concern her or why, only at the end that she realises that Revan needs her.
Something to bridge the gap might be nice, sure, but KoToR II covers that gap how it should.

[Toastkart]

The thing is that she wants to leave "echoes," spark tragedies in order to defean Force sensitives to the Force entirely. How she intended to do this wasn't entirely clear, but I think it was originally intended to involve the Shadow Mass Generator or some other McGuffin like Force sorcery.

Here's the part I have a problem with. How she could do it is never even partially explained and to me that means it's not a viable option or a serious threat. Unless Kreia wanted to recreate Malachor V all over the galaxy, but even that doesn't hold water in my eyes. Kreia's method for creating change in the galaxy has always been through teaching. First through the Jedi, then the Sith, and then on her own. Acting through violence (or what amounts to violence) goes against everything she taught about manipulation of critical moments and teaching in general. The Exile severed her own connection to the Force in order to survive, and thus lost her dependency to it. This doesn't mean that any other Force sensitive has to suffer in order to lose their dependency, they just have to be taught. The Jedi Masters were a special case, as they threatened the Exile.


I seriously doubt she was lying about that since she it seems like just the sort of thing that she'd be motivated to do.

You're taking Kreia at face value again. If she's lied to and manipulated the Exile throughout the entire story, why trust her to tell the truth now? Kreia's motivation is rooted in teaching the Exile to be a person, with the qualifier that that person is neither Jedi nor Sith. Kreia betrays the Exile because there is something to be learned and conflict generated from betrayal. The Exile still has to go further than Kreia, and to Kreia, who spent time as a Sith, the best way to surpass a teacher is to kill her.



I was disappointed by the dark side option in 2, however. I tried to play a dark side guy, but I just couldn't manage it because you have to be such a jerk. You have all these conversations where your ally is like, "Maybe we should do this," and your options are,

1. Yes, that is a helpful assessment and useful information. I will take this under consideration.
2. I will tell you your opinion if I require it, if I debase myself so much as to even think of you. Speak to me again and I'll use your intestines for a jump rope, you sack of crap.

However, choosing 1) gives light side points, even though it seemed like the "smart" response, not the "good" response. That just annoyed me.

I definitely agree, however I think this is largely due to the rushed development. If you'll notice, early in the game there are more options for dialogue including what could be considered Force Neutral choices. The more you progress in the game, the more the Exile's responses become limited to the extremes of light and dark side.

It's really a shame if you think about it. We know about so much content that we know was cut to make a deadline, but rarely do we think about what content was cut that we don't know about.



The 2 party was, for the most part, much weaker in terms of character than the first one.

I'm not sure I fully agree, Jolee Bindo made up for a lot of the shortcomings of the party that didn't return for the second game.


Bioware succeeded in making me care for the storyline and characters, Obsidian did not. That I think is the primary difference why I liked KotOR 1 and not KotOR 2 and obviously other people feel different. Viva la difference!

Aside from your problems with kotor2's treatment of the previous story in general and Revan in particular, what about the story and characters of kotor2 didn't appeal to you? You mentioned a couple things (kreia's nagging, Atton's flatness, Mira's rushedness, etc.) but what about the story itself and the journey of the Exile?

[Jeivar]

Aside from your problems with kotor2's treatment of the previous story in general and Revan in particular, what about the story and characters of kotor2 didn't appeal to you? You mentioned a couple things (kreia's nagging, Atton's flatness, Mira's rushedness, etc.) but what about the story itself and the journey of the Exile?

I think you might be confusing Joran with me, the OP. To answer your question (and I know I'm leaving a lot of comments unanswered, but I don't have much time and there are so many very long replies):

The story itself and the Exile? I didn't care too much for either. The Exile was constantly being capture/arrested/drugged/incapacitated, led around like an idiot by a scheming and blatantly sociopathic old bitch, and through the earlier parts I was kind of annoyed at having to argue with characters and defend myself due to events that I, as the player, knew absolutely nothing about. Kreia's philosophy, definition of right and wrong, world-view, and overall attitude were abhorrent to me, and yet the game forced me to AGREE with her BS to get those precious influence points, and therefore large chunks of the story. I guess I should have listed the influence system in my original list of beefs with K2.

Anyway: About the Exile's quest and the story, I found both rather weird and wangstacularly melodramatic, structured to push a world-view I don't agree with, and deconstruct the Jedi Order . . . even though said order DOESN'T EXIST and there's no need to tear it down. It kind of feels like someone warning the world not to rely on Superman to save us from asteroids; A weird attempt at injecting Dark-N'-Deep! into a setting that was really just created as fun, fantastical escapism. And what's wrong with just having fun, now and then?

My memory may be a bit skewed, but I remember feeling like most of the characters were just so incredibly serious and melodramatic that it just became hard to take them seriously. Take the Handmaiden for example. According to her, apparently Echani culture is entirely built around martial arts combat. ENTIRELY. To the point that sparring with someone multiple times is considered intimate, and they judge people's character by their combat stance. Isn't that just a bit too much? How the heck does a society like that last? How to they train?

I feel like I'm in danger of veering off into a whiny rant, so I'll just close for now by saying that overall I feel KOTOR 2 ultimately collapses under the weight of its own pretentiousness, disrespect for the franchise, and bevvy of unlikable characters. Heck, as much as I think Jolee was full of himself I could still enjoy him as a character. In K2, Mira was the only one I felt any real attachment to.

There, I'll stop now. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Wait, female Exile is the canon? I thought Revan was supposed to be female by canon, and the Exile male?

[Zarah]

Darth Revan (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revan):

A Human male once known by the nickname the Revanchist
The Exile (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_exile):

a Human female who was a Jedi Padawan who chose to disobey the orders of the Jedi High Council and aid the Galactic Republic in its struggle against the invading Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders during the Mandalorian Wars

Case closed. :smalltongue:

EDIT: And while we're on the topic, Jaden Korr was a male Human as well. I know that has nothing to do with KotOR, but I figured I would throw it in here too. :smalltongue:

[Philistine]

Fun fact about the influence system: you start off at 0 influence with each NPC, which is "neutrality;" you unlock each character's content by either gaining or losing influence with them - the absolute value of your influence over them is the criterion.

[Cristo Meyers]

Wait, female Exile is the canon? I thought Revan was supposed to be female by canon, and the Exile male?

That's what a lot of people wanted. They took a bit of flak for making Revan canonically male, if I recall, and making the Exile female was somewhat seen as them saying "sorry Revan's a man, but here, have this half-developed character instead!"

[Mando Knight]

EDIT: And while we're on the topic, Jaden Korr was a male Human as well. I know that has nothing to do with KotOR, but I figured I would throw it in here too. :smalltongue:

Well, male anyway. Canon sources don't indicate his species, so by Jedi Academy's customization options he could be a Kel Dor or Rodian, as well.

[Zarah]

Well, male anyway. Canon sources don't indicate his species, so by Jedi Academy's customization options he could be a Kel Dor or Rodian, as well.

I was going to say that, but then I saw this:


The author Paul Kemp of the new novel Crosscurrent confirmed on his LiveJournal that Jaden will be Human.

Humans are easier to write, I guess. :smalltongue:

[Guancyto]

Fun fact about the influence system: you start off at 0 influence with each NPC, which is "neutrality;" you unlock each character's content by either gaining or losing influence with them - the absolute value of your influence over them is the criterion.

This. It's little known that while you can unlock Kreia's dialogues by agreeing with her ideas, you can also do so by telling her to go space herself at every opportunity.

Not that I did so, but for people who don't like her it makes the whole shebang much more satisfying. And I would've given a lot for the option in other games of continued dialogue trees by telling a party member to shove their whining where the sun don't shine (see: Aerie, Carth).

[SolkaTruesilver]

This. It's little known that while you can unlock Kreia's dialogues by agreeing with her ideas, you can also do so by telling her to go space herself at every opportunity.

Not that I did so, but for people who don't like her it makes the whole shebang much more satisfying. And I would've given a lot for the option in other games of continued dialogue trees by telling a party member to shove their whining where the sun don't shine (see: Aerie, Carth).

I would have to agree that, whatever were Atton's shortcomings, he was much more of a badass and interesting character due to his past and his reaction to it than Carth ever was.

Carth was whine, whine, whine. I didn't cared about him. In fact, to be honest, I didn't care about any of the KOTOR1 characters. Canderous? Pfff. Carth? Meh, die on this planet. Mission? (SOOO happy to kill her for good). Zalbaar? Stereotype Wookie #1.

Atton was layer of things. The guy that is much more than what meet the eyes. Handmaiden is a liar in her own way, and a manipulator. Bao-Dur was utterly boring. Mandalore had at least a very interesting motivation (too bad it got cut).

I have to say, I didn't care much for Mira. Hanharr was... deep. He was a raging psychopath that was killing everybody because of love. A little stupid, but sooo interesting.

[tyckspoon]

I have to say, I didn't care much for Mira. Hanharr was... deep. He was a raging psychopath that was killing everybody because of love. A little stupid, but sooo interesting.

Plus you could get some really nifty stat bumps from advancing his dialogues. And he could completely rip things apart in a fight. Pretty much all around better than Mira.

[averagejoe]

None of the characters were very deep or interesting at all. Hanharr and Atton just had some tragedy; not particularly deep tragedy, just unusual circumstances. I mean, Hanharr was sorta badass, but Atton was just irritating and boring.

That said, I liked Mission. She had the whole tragic thing going, but she was full of spunk and vigor, not rage, depression, and such.

As for Carth... well, he was a bit cautious, granted, but he had your back from the start, which ingratiated me somewhat. I would be like, "Carth, this needs to be shot," and he'd be like, "Pyew pyew pyew pyew!" Good times. It's difficult to break such bonds.

I have to say that I liked Mira, but that's mainly because she had wrist rockets. She could have been anyone, really, I just think wrist rockets are cool.

[LurkerInPlayground]

As for Carth... well, he was a bit cautious, granted, but he had your back from the start, which ingratiated me somewhat. I would be like, "Carth, this needs to be shot," and he'd be like, "Pyew pyew pyew pyew!" Good times. It's difficult to break such bonds.
Carth. You mean Carth, "I CAN'T EVER TRUST ANYBODY AGAIN?" Carth?

Carth, as in, Carth, "I NEED MY REVENGE!"

That guy?

He was annoying.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Here's the part I have a problem with. How she could do it is never even partially explained and to me that means it's not a viable option or a serious threat. Unless Kreia wanted to recreate Malachor V all over the galaxy, but even that doesn't hold water in my eyes. Kreia's method for creating change in the galaxy has always been through teaching. First through the Jedi, then the Sith, and then on her own. Acting through violence (or what amounts to violence) goes against everything she taught about manipulation of critical moments and teaching in general. The Exile severed her own connection to the Force in order to survive, and thus lost her dependency to it. This doesn't mean that any other Force sensitive has to suffer in order to lose their dependency, they just have to be taught. The Jedi Masters were a special case, as they threatened the Exile.
Short answer: She was emotionally unstable towards the end of the game. As I said, I suspect that Atris could have taken her place depending on the player's action. An Atris as Darth Traya model was found in the game, so this suggests that Kreia wouldn't necessarily the one up and bitter about it.

As it stands, a Light Side Exile gets bullied by the Council, who completely misinterpret the Exile as a threat. A Dark Side Exile, kind of ruins her plans for getting a point across to the Jedi Masters, being that he kills them. Either way, it makes her bitter.

And yes, Malachor is the precedent that Kreia uses.



You're taking Kreia at face value again. If she's lied to and manipulated the Exile throughout the entire story, why trust her to tell the truth now? Kreia's motivation is rooted in teaching the Exile to be a person, with the qualifier that that person is neither Jedi nor Sith. Kreia betrays the Exile because there is something to be learned and conflict generated from betrayal. The Exile still has to go further than Kreia, and to Kreia, who spent time as a Sith, the best way to surpass a teacher is to kill her.
Because she doesn't need to lie. Because she told nobody about her plan. It's not like she's breaking the fourth wall and lying the audience. Besides, it's consistent with her motives. Her threat to the Exile wasn't that she'd try and kill the Force or whatever, but that she would kill herself at Malachor and thereby kill the Exile through their Force-bond unless he showed up.

She expounds on her beliefs for quite some time: Preaching things like not being dependent on the Force and even going so far as to name it a malicious entity that seems more capable of evil than good. And all the implied history she has seems to back it up -- this is a woman who has been through a lot.

[Cúchulainn]

In fact, to be honest, I didn't care about any of the KOTOR1 characters. Canderous? Pfff.

Canderous (slash Mandalore in kotor2) is like the most badass character ever! He's the whole reason some people even bothered looking up what Mandalorians are, plus his war stories and side plots are the best. Kreia makes him sound like a kinrath pup waiting for its master (Revan) to come home, but he was a war veteran before Revan or the Exile actually grew a pair and decided to fight. And since he travelled with Revan AND the Exile he was probably the most powerful Mandalore in history, that may not mean much to anyone but those guys break Jedi in half and win wars.

[Mando Knight]

And since he travelled with Revan AND the Exile he was probably the most powerful Mandalore in history, that may not mean much to anyone but those guys break Jedi in half and win wars.

Until, y'know, THIS (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Boba_Fett) guy...
Since, after all, he's Vader's chum, and later kicks Vong rear and even teams up with Luke Skywalker... after cheating death more times than anyone feels like counting...

[averagejoe]

Carth. You mean Carth, "I CAN'T EVER TRUST ANYBODY AGAIN?" Carth?

Carth, as in, Carth, "I NEED MY REVENGE!"

That guy?

He was annoying.

I must admit that I don't remember a lot of that. I might have skipped a lot of his dialogue and just made up my own narrative between my character and him. I mean, come on, he has a scraggly beard and wields two pistols. Awesome.

I saw his whole, "Can't trust anyone," shtick as him trying to put on a brave front and unable to express his inner feelings. Because, really, he never didn't have your back. So I'd wink and be like, "I know, Carth, I know."


Until, y'know, THIS (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Boba_Fett) guy...
Since, after all, he's Vader's chum, and later kicks Vong rear and even teams up with Luke Skywalker... after cheating death more times than anyone feels like counting...

Fett is just an overhyped character with way too much EU time devoted to him. I really have trouble taking him seriously. Canderous/Mandalore had a cooler costume, was more badass, and less of a sue.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I must admit that I don't remember a lot of that. I might have skipped a lot of his dialogue and just made up my own narrative between my character and him. I mean, come on, he has a scraggly beard and wields two pistols. Awesome.

I saw his whole, "Can't trust anyone," shtick as him trying to put on a brave front and unable to express his inner feelings. Because, really, he never didn't have your back. So I'd wink and be like, "I know, Carth, I know.
Right. So we know that you have just cause to dismiss KOTOR 2 characters as shallow.

I'll grant that they're not ultra-deep. But favorably comparing KOTOR 1 characters to KOTOR 2 characters is laughable.

The only KOTOR 1 character who really won me over was Jolee Bindo. This is a guy who who gives you a sidequest which amounts to getting some kids off his front lawn. Then he tells you a story about a Jedi with a great destiny which is comedy gold. He was a decent guy who didn't to justify doing good things according to a philosophy based around a lot of metaphysical bunk.

[averagejoe]

Right. So we know that you have just cause to dismiss KOTOR 2 characters as shallow.

Eh? I meant for Carth. I'm not even sure if that's what I did, I just can't remember much of Carth's story. It might just be because it has been awhile since I've played 1.

None of the characters was very deep, but the 1 characters tended to be more fun. I mean, at the very least I could imagine high fiving them after battle. Atton's character was trite and annoying from the get go, and for your talk of "depth" I have yet to hear any mention of nuance in any of the 2 characters. I'll admit that I could be wrong about Handmaiden, but that's only because I've never played the game through as a dude.

[SmartAlec]

I mean, at the very least I could imagine high fiving them after battle.

On the other hand, I rather enjoyed the little rivalries and tensions on board KOTOR2's Ebon Hawk. Handmaiden doesn't trust Atton. Atton doesn't trust the droids. Handmaiden and Visas are vying for the Exile's attention, and Mira finds it almost funny. The relations between Bao-Dur and Mandalore are very strained. HK-47 distrusts T3-M4 and dislikes G0-T0. G0-T0 can't stand Bao-Dur's remote, but tries to be polite because he's interested in being upgraded by Bao-Dur. And no-one trusts or likes Kreia, but every so often she'll pull a string - trying to conspire with Handmaiden against Visas, threatening T3 for revealing too much information about Revan...

I liked seeing the characters' various neuroses and problems play off against each other, even when the Exile wasn't around to see it. As well as watching the occasional cutscene when you'd see the characters put aside these rivalries and work as a team. KOTOR2 had an actual group dynamic.

[averagejoe]

On the other hand, I rather enjoyed the little rivalries and tensions on board KOTOR2's Ebon Hawk. Handmaiden doesn't trust Atton. Atton doesn't trust the droids. Handmaiden and Visas are vying for the Exile's attention, and Mira finds it almost funny. The relations between Bao-Dur and Mandalore are very strained. HK-47 distrusts T3-M4 and dislikes G0-T0. G0-T0 can't stand Bao-Dur's remote, but tries to be polite because he's interested in being upgraded by Bao-Dur. And no-one trusts or likes Kreia, but every so often she'll pull a string - trying to conspire with Handmaiden against Visas, threatening T3 for revealing too much information about Revan...

I liked seeing the characters' various neuroses and problems play off against each other, even when the Exile wasn't around to see it. As well as watching the occasional cutscene when you'd see the characters put aside these rivalries and work as a team. KOTOR2 had an actual group dynamic.

Oh, no doubt interacting with the characters was more fun in 2, and the dynamics were much better done (and, you know, existent). I just meant as individuals they weren't any deeper. I didn't find them more likable either, but that's just a matter of taste. I will also say that the characters were all appropriate given the tone of their respective games. I mean, I liked Mission, for example, but she wouldn't have fit in KOTOR 2, so I'm glad they didn't have a character like her.

[CreganTur]

Once Team Gizka releases TSLRP (The Sith Lords Restoration Project) KoToR II will become a completely different game.

[Jerthanis]

Kotor 1 was part of the reason the average person likes Star Wars. It's fun, full of adventure, some clever dialogue here and there, laser swords and explosions, and it had good and evil.

Kotor 2 was part of the reason people who like myths like Star Wars.

Ultimately, Kotor 1 had nothing to say about the human condition. Its only depth came from the question, "What happens when you wipe clean a human mind? Is it a new identity, or will it develop into the same person?", and even that it only asks in an implied fashion. Also, both good and evil paths are written as absolute power-fantasy wish-fulfillments for the PC.

Kotor 2 was about life, justice, fear... it was about Good and it was about Evil and it was about neither. It made you ask deeper questions about your character motivations... and more than that, it let you express those motivations, nuances and character aspects through dialogue. There were 15 minute conversations which never got dull (the first time through, at least).

I Will say though, that Kotor 1 made a lot of the secondary skills more useful in the dungeon-crawling segments. There were 3 or 4 dungeons in Kotor 1 that I basically completed almost without firing a shot by causing power conduits to overload, repairing random battle droids and so on. However... the item crafting system made amazing use of your skills (My first and favorite Kotor 2 character was a Jedi Sentinel with a starting intelligence of 18 and literally every skill maxed out eventually)

So yeah... if you just like Star Wars because it's awesome, Kotor 1 is better. If you like Star Wars because it touches something deep in your soul that makes you want to Understand the Truth of Everything... Kotor 2 is better.

[SmartAlec]

You don't have the choice. Once you get back Revan's memory, you become Revan. The fact that you have the choice between the two means that you know Revan's memory, and the moment you know of Revan's memory, he becomes the major influence on your personnality, and wins over.

Running on the theory - put forth by Kreia - that CharName was essentially Revan's basic personality with all the emotional baggage and crushing responsibility removed, I'm of the mind that we have four 'stages' of the same person here:

1) Revan.
2) CharName; Revan's basic personality, without the stimulus that caused Revan to take such extreme measures.
3) CharName, trying to assimilate some - but not all - of Revan's memories, midway between KOTOR1.
4) CharName after learning the truth of the True Sith.

I'm of this belief because when we reach 4), CharName's reaction isn't the same as Revan's reaction. It's not even similar. Revan doesn't try to rally the Sith, crush the Jedi, assume leadership of the Republic and try to make the best strategic use of what he/she's got. Instead, Revan heads for the Outer Rim, and asks his/her followers to gather forces and wait (Canderous is told to reassemble the Mandalorians; HK-47 ends up leading a droid army; with a Light Side Revan, Carth rebuilds the Republic Navy). It's such a different take on How To Save The Galaxy that I feel CharName has taken Revan's memories and has run with them in a totally different direction.

Incidentally, although some people say 'my CharName would never have left the galaxy under any circumstances', I'd tend to answer that with the fact that because we don't know exactly what it is CharName learned, we can't say how he/she would react to it.


Once Team Gizka releases TSLRP (The Sith Lords Restoration Project) KoToR II will become a completely different game.

Not sure about that. Some of the beta testers have said not to expect too much. It'll be tighter, less buggy and less fragmented, but according to reports it's not completely different.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Running on the theory - put forth by Kreia - that CharName was essentially Revan's basic personality with all the emotional baggage and crushing responsibility removed, I'm of the mind that we have four 'stages' of the same person here:

1) Revan.
2) CharName; Revan's basic personality, without the stimulus that caused Revan to take such extreme measures.
3) CharName, trying to assimilate some - but not all - of Revan's memories, midway between KOTOR1.
4) CharName after learning the truth of the True Sith.

I'm of this belief because when we reach 4), CharName's reaction isn't the same as Revan's reaction. It's not even similar. Revan doesn't try to rally the Sith, crush the Jedi, assume leadership of the Republic and try to make the best strategic use of what he/she's got. .

First, I think that 4) is effectively 1). I think CharName gets back the majority, if not the totality of Revan's memory, and effectively become Revan again.

I am not sure I understand the rest of your post. Revan originally wanted the Galaxy to be strong ennough to beat the True Sith, which is why he went in a war of conquest. But after Malak ravaged the galaxy, there wasn't much he could do left to salvage it all, and probably set many seeds of power to grow and be able to help beating the Sith, while he went directly against the Sith to try to delay/contain them as long as possible.

Maybe an heroic sacrifice...?

[SmartAlec]

First, I think that 4) is effectively 1). I think CharName gets back the majority, if not the totality of Revan's memory, and effectively become Revan again.

Hm. When I said 'Revan', I meant Darth Revan. Let's revise this.

1) Revan, from birth. A fundamentally decent person.

2) Revan, in the Jedi Order. Exemplary student. However, he/she learns the terrible secret of the True Sith, comes under the influence of Kreia (Master Kae?), becomes frustrated with the Jedi Order and decides to make a sacrifice for the good of the galaxy by becoming...

3) Darth Revan. Unleashes a Machiavellian plan to destroy the old, cautious Jedi Order and establish a unified galaxy under the domain of the Sith. Loses his/her memory and becomes...

4) CharName. In personality, mostly identical to 1). However, lacks the influences that turned him/her into 2), and 2) into 3). Events lead CharName to uncovering his/her past, which leads to...

5) CharName with some of Revan's memory. Fundamentally the same person as 3, but with some chilly knowledge. Has the advantage of the experience of being 4 to temper or overturn the influences that turned 2 into 3. As a result, 5 is a different person to 2 or 3. In the aftermath of KOTOR, we see him/her turn to...

6) CharName after learning the secret of the True Sith. Decides to make a sacrifice for the good of the galaxy by going to confront them on their own turf. Similar to 2, but the nature of the sacrifice is very different - rather than assume personal responsibility for the whole of the galaxy as 2 did, 6 leaves that responsibility in the hands of others.

It's a different response to the same stimulus. I realise that the Republic is in a bad way in KOTOR2, but G0-T0 is of the opinion that it can be stabilised and rebuilt, and the upcoming MMO shows that it was. As we know from KOTOR2, Revan's main goal in the Jedi Civil War wasn't to unify the Republic, but to destroy the Jedi Order and remake it into a more proactive, Sithesque organisation. So it's difficult to attribute 6's different approach purely to the state of the galaxy. I believe that it can also be attributed to differences in character that began with Revan experiencing life as 4.

[LurkerInPlayground]

It's a different response to the same stimulus. I realise that the Republic is in a bad way in KOTOR2, but G0-T0 is of the opinion that it can be stabilised and rebuilt, and the upcoming MMO shows that it was. As we know from KOTOR2, Revan's main goal in the Jedi Civil War wasn't to unify the Republic, but to destroy the Jedi Order and remake it into a more proactive, Sithesque organisation. So it's difficult to attribute 6's different approach purely to the state of the galaxy. I believe that it can also be attributed to differences in character that began with Revan experiencing life as 4.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, Darth Revan would have still been a tyrant, even if his motives in protecting the galaxy were noble. He just would have been far subtler about than Malak.

At any rate, I wouldn't take the KOTOR MMO as "canon" as far as KOTOR 2 goes, since KOTOR 2 is very much working under different assumptions. KOTOR 2 implies that the "True Sith" were an ancient tradition that far predates the Sith of this galaxy -- such that calling them Sith is something of a misnomer.

But the MMO is pretty retarded in that it's basically the same Sith but bigger and badder (we haven't heard that before). And I mean literally the same Jedi who rebelled from the Council who then went outside the galaxy to build their strength. What smelled like a game that would have involved you picking over ancient and Lovecraftian ruins regresses back to . . . the same old rehashed story of Jedi versus Sith we've heard a thousand times. What a waste. Personally, I'm not sure that they intended for a sequel since the whole, "the protagonists fly outside the galaxy to parts uknown," was a clean way of removing them from the EU.

[Joran]

So yeah... if you just like Star Wars because it's awesome, Kotor 1 is better. If you like Star Wars because it touches something deep in your soul that makes you want to Understand the Truth of Everything... Kotor 2 is better.

So what about Star Wars touched something deep in your soul? What deep questions did Star Wars ask of you?

I was under the impression that Star Wars the first three movies are basically wish fulfillment. Star Wars 4 was the Hero's Journey and I didn't find the explanations of the Force or the Jedi particularly enlightening in any of the movies. Based on the descriptions in the movies, I can't formulate a Jedi philosophy or religion. That came later, though I prefer to believe George Lucas made no further movies after the Last Crusade.

KotOR 2, based on how everyone describes it, basically tries to deconstruct and undermine the entire philosophy of the Force and Jedi/Sith. An admirable aim and reading everyone's descriptions and analysis definitely makes it sound interesting. It's just that I brought my own baggage to the game and couldn't really enjoy it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

KotOR 2, based on how everyone describes it, basically tries to deconstruct and undermine the entire philosophy of the Force and Jedi/Sith. An admirable aim and reading everyone's descriptions and analysis definitely makes it sound interesting. It's just that I brought my own baggage to the game and couldn't really enjoy it.

You are effectively saying that your own pre-set ideas about the premisce of the universe makes you totally closed to any kind of re-exploration of said premisce?

And that any game that tries to expand and explore such premisce with a new point of view will therefore be immediately not enjoyable?

Are you proud of that? :smallmad:

[Mewtarthio]

No, he's just saying that his past experiences affect his present perception of reality, like all humans. He has always experienced Star Wars as wish fulfillment, and therefore he perceives any deconstruction of Star Wars as unnecessarily harsh, much like telling a child that Santa Claus uses slave labor and spies on everyone.

At least, that's what I get from his post. I don't blame him. It's hard to look at the Jedi Council the same way after playing KotoR II. Seriously, go play the original KotoR and tell me they don't seem just a little pretentious and manipulative.

[SolkaTruesilver]

At least, that's what I get from his post. I don't blame him. It's hard to look at the Jedi Council the same way after playing KotoR II. Seriously, go play the original KotoR and tell me they don't seem just a little pretentious and manipulative.

They did, and they still did in KOTOR2.

But the Jedi existing in KOTOR1/2 aren't the Jedi we know of in the prequel trilogy. This isn't the stuff of Jedi Obi Wan was made of.

This was kinda the point of KOTOR2. Peoples who've allowed Revan to go on alone and fall aren't good defenders of the Galaxy. But... does the Galaxy needs defending, or should it try to defend itself alone?

Even against Force Users?

[Pronounceable]

much like telling a child that Santa Claus uses slave labor and spies on everyone.

And how is that not awesome?

[SolkaTruesilver]

He has always experienced Star Wars as wish fulfillment, and therefore he perceives any deconstruction of Star Wars as unnecessarily harsh, much like telling a child that Santa Claus uses slave labor and spies on everyone.
.

But he's not a child.

Sluggy Freelance had a very funny take on Santa Claus, and I wasn't mad at the writer just because he re-engineered a myth I had when I was young. I'm an adult, I can deal with new stuff, with things that change what I perceived as reality. If someone cannot deal with new take on what they believe, I seriously wonder how they can hope to last the day.

You may disagree about the new light shed on what "is", but one has to be open about new ideas.

[Jeivar]

And that any game that tries to expand and explore such premisce with a new point of view will therefore be immediately not enjoyable?

Are you proud of that? :smallmad:

Am I proud? And an angry face?

. . . does my dislike of a computer game personally offend you somehow? You may have noticed that I offered anyone and everyone to disagree with my assessment of KOTOR 2, and I have at no point put down anyone's opinion.

I'm not looking for a fight, but perhaps you're the one who needs to reexamine their behavior.

[Jeivar]

No, he's just saying that his past experiences affect his present perception of reality, like all humans. He has always experienced Star Wars as wish fulfillment, and therefore he perceives any deconstruction of Star Wars as unnecessarily harsh, much like telling a child that Santa Claus uses slave labor and spies on everyone.

At least, that's what I get from his post. I don't blame him. It's hard to look at the Jedi Council the same way after playing KotoR II. Seriously, go play the original KotoR and tell me they don't seem just a little pretentious and manipulative.

Thanks for the support. As for them being pretentious and manipulative:

Well . . .

As I recall Bastila explaining the Jedi reluctance to join the Mandalorian Wars, it was because they sensed "something out there. Something that devoured Revan and Malak". So, being big-picture kind of folk they were worried about their involvement making things even worse. And then Revan and Malak went and fought in the war, found the Star Maps, and came back as corrupted, conquering tyrants.

Maybe if the entire Jedi Order had joined them in the fight things never would have gotten to that point. Or maybe far more Jedi would have fallen and the re-emerging Sith would have been even stronger. We don't know. I see it all as a tragic no-win scenario. One can say that the Masters made the wrong call, but I think that their call was at least understandable from their position.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Perhaps you missed the point of the whole thing. The Sith Lords and the Jedi Masters were used, very eloquently I might add, to show the dangers of dependency on the Force. There's a reason that Darth Nihilus is shallow as a character. He's not a character anymore, he's a mystical force of nature that's built up through fear and exposition and in the end he turns out to be just a man (i.e. nothing special). Why? Because his dependency on the Force made him weak and a shell of his former self.

Darth Sion, as someone else mentioned, is the most complex of the Sith Lords, due to his relationship with Kreia. Don't forget that for Sith to surpass their teachers they have to kill them, something Sion was never able to do, and it gave him a bit of a complex.

I don't know how much he was supposed to be built up...before executive meddling, that mask that Darth Nihilus wears is supposed to be Revan's skull which would imply that Nihilus killed him for it. That's an example of 'fear and exposition' catching up to someone there. Aside from that, I didn't find Nihilus that shallow. Sure, I couldn't understand him at all but I was actually sad to kill him.

Sion...was complex, but I wouldn't say it's strictly because of his relationship with Kreia. Especially since when Nihilus and Sion turned on her, they left her for dead and it just turned out she survived. Eh. I enjoyed the principle behind him.


Or, you know, everyone could be taking the 'death of the Force' line entirely too literally. I always got the sense that Kreia was talking about the death of dependency on the Force. I mean, look at what she did. By the time the Exile follows her to Malachor V, both the Sith and the Jedi are broken into ruin and the only task left for the Exile is to surpass her teacher and continue the lesson of a philosophy that is distinctly neither Jedi nor Sith.

Kreia went to Malachor to die.

Then she, quite simply, died for nothing. The one time I finished the game, gave it away before I could finish it with other characters, my character full-heartedly swung back and forth a little between Sith and Jedi teachings for a little bit, like Kreia seemed to want, but then I realized just how...frankly...how much I despised Kreia and her wishy-washy character (not actual characterization, that was good, but how she seemed portrayed). Here was a woman who didn't have the strength of will to commit to either teaching then, in a seeming fit of child-like rage, she decides that she'll make her own philosophy just for herself and it turned out she was manipulating me towards that too. This was realized BEFORE the end of the game. At the point the Exile took a sharp turn towards the Light Side when he (in my case) realized the danger Kreia held.

Yeah...the manipulative old crone drove me towards the Light Side. That's how much I disliked her. Course it didn't help that it also seems like she is just using you for revenge on Nihilus, Sion, and pretty much the Jedi too.

[Philistine]

.... It's hard to look at the Jedi Council the same way after playing KotoR II. Seriously, go play the original KotoR and tell me they don't seem just a little pretentious and manipulative.

Ummm... I had that impression on my first playthrough of the first game, before I'd even heard a rumor of a sequel. Except for the "just a little" part.

And this is coming from someone who played as LS every time through the game but one.

Though that had as much to do with the thuggish, Chaotic Stupid nature of most of the DS choices in the game as with anything else. For all their other virtues, Bio has never been particularly good at writing for evil characters - and I see KotOR as a particularly low point in that regard.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Am I proud? And an angry face?

. . . does my dislike of a computer game personally offend you somehow? You may have noticed that I offered anyone and everyone to disagree with my assessment of KOTOR 2, and I have at no point put down anyone's opinion.

I'm not looking for a fight, but perhaps you're the one who needs to reexamine their behavior.

I might dislike Baldur's Gate's take of Elminster, but I don't dislike Baldur's GAte because of it.

Titan Quest might have rubbed in the mud most things I adore about classic mythology, but I take it as is it: a video game.

Telling me that you "had a baggage with you" before playing that video game, and because the video game maybe have put into perspective that baggage, you dislike the video game is letting irrelevant pre-conditionning obscure your jugement regarding the game itself.

I have heard many people say that "Fallout 3 would have been a good game, if it hadn't been called Fallout". They letting irrelevant past baggages changing their view of what is now. If people had more of that stupid behavior, we couldn't have any progress in the game industry because everything would be compared only and only on their predecessors. Dawn of War would have been put down because "it's not Starcraft", SMAC would have been put on a crucifix because it's deviating from the "classic" Civ model.

You may like or dislike KOTOR2. Say that the ending is horrible (I agree), say that you dislike the characters for what they are (depth of character irrelevant to like/dislike). But saying that KOTOR2 isn't a worthy game because it shows you an aspect of morality different that the one you labeled Star Wars when you were young is stupid.

[Joran]

Telling me that you "had a baggage with you" before playing that video game, and because the video game maybe have put into perspective that baggage, you dislike the video game is letting irrelevant pre-conditionning obscure your jugement regarding the game itself.


As described in my previous posts, I was off-put by what they did to my character. Basically, KotOR 1 felt like a story that was a collaboration between me and the game. It was close to D&D and I'll use that as an example. Imagine, basically, that my friend and I do an epic campaign, where my actions help shape the campaign world on a massive scale. At the end, I'm really happy where I am and my influence on the world. Then my friend says, "Oh I have a new campaign set in the same world a few years later, you need to start a new character." However, he decided, by himself without my input, that my former character would do something that I felt was out of character and that everything I did in the previous game did nothing to shape the new campaign.

Framed in that manner, can you see why I was annoyed?

Oh and the ending felt immensely incomplete, which undermines a lot of joy from a game. I tried not to hold it against them, though, I think it also colors a lot of my experience for the game.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Yeah...the manipulative old crone drove me towards the Light Side. That's how much I disliked her. Course it didn't help that it also seems like she is just using you for revenge on Nihilus, Sion, and pretty much the Jedi too.
Err . . . that actually wouldn't be inconsistent with her teachings. She doesn't have a problem with you going "light side" per se. She has a problem with you uncritically accepting the Jedi code and she has a problem with you thinking in mindless dualisms. Light side and dark side are merely labels appended to how one uses the Force, not actual "sides" in any meaningful sense.

Yes, she does egg you on to do Dark Side actions, but it's not technically incongruous to disagree with her on that count. And there are a number of occasions where you can defend Light Side actions without losing influence to her.

I know this because if you go Dark Side and kill the Council, she berates you for being so short-sightedly thuggish. She wants you to spare the Council. She wants to parade you in front of the Council to show them that they had a mistake casting out the Exile. That the Force isn't everything. That moral dualities distracted from the real issues that have plagued the Order.

If you happen to be a dyed-in-the-wool White Knight, so much the better. Yes, Kreia wants revenge on the Council, but she wants to do it in a way that proves that she's the moral victor. Since, in her eyes, that's the only meaningful victory. She only killed the Council the moment they threatened to cut-off her prized pupil.

[The Rose Dragon]

However, he decided, by himself without my input, that my former character would do something that I felt was out of character and that everything I did in the previous game did nothing to shape the new campaign.

Framed in that manner, can you see why I was annoyed?

If it was established your "character" was actually a placeholder for a canon character who returned after the campaign ended... no, I can't see why you were annoyed.

[LurkerInPlayground]

As described in my previous posts, I was off-put by what they did to my character. Basically, KotOR 1 felt like a story that was a collaboration between me and the game. It was close to D&D and I'll use that as an example. Imagine, basically, that my friend and I do an epic campaign, where my actions help shape the campaign world on a massive scale. At the end, I'm really happy where I am and my influence on the world. Then my friend says, "Oh I have a new campaign set in the same world a few years later, you need to start a new character." However, he decided, by himself without my input, that my former character would do something that I felt was out of character and that everything I did in the previous game did nothing to shape the new campaign.

Framed in that manner, can you see why I was annoyed?

Oh and the ending felt immensely incomplete, which undermines a lot of joy from a game. I tried not to hold it against them, though, I think it also colors a lot of my experience for the game.
No. I don't know if you missed my post but I addressed this.

But the fact of the matter is that he wasn't your character. He only got to be a flipping badass with a tale of redemption because Bioware had decided that in advance.

So you have a problem with Obsidian saying that he disappeared mysteriously, but no problem with Bioware going:
"By the way, your character is an amnesiac ex-Sith Lord. Surprise!"

Double standard much?

You can dislike something that has merits. But it's disingenuous to say that something is devoid of merit merely because you dislike it. I hate Catcher in the Rye, for example. But it's hardly the worst book ever written.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Err . . . that actually wouldn't be inconsistent with her teachings. She doesn't have a problem with you go "light side." She has a problem with you uncritically accepting the Jedi code and she has a problem with you thinking in mindless dualisms. Light side and dark side are merely labels appended to how one uses the Force, not actual "sides" in any meaningful sense.

That is what she drove me to, so there. :smalltongue: In your face hag!

[SolkaTruesilver]

As described in my previous posts, I was off-put by what they did to my character. Basically, KotOR 1 felt like a story that was a collaboration between me and the game. It was close to D&D and I'll use that as an example. Imagine, basically, that my friend and I do an epic campaign, where my actions help shape the campaign world on a massive scale. At the end, I'm really happy where I am and my influence on the world. Then my friend says, "Oh I have a new campaign set in the same world a few years later, you need to start a new character." However, he decided, by himself without my input, that my former character would do something that I felt was out of character and that everything I did in the previous game did nothing to shape the new campaign.



While I understand your rant (and I have the same situation set with my GM in the campaign that recently ended, with me as one of the Triumvir of a country), you cannot apply the same standards between a video game and a RPG campaign that only you (and a few friends) played.

And tell me, when you expected KOTOR2, what did you expect? It was a continuation of the first game. But the first game ended with you pwning the whole galaxy. They had to find a new main character without going trough the same amnesiac plot trick. They had to find a way to make that character relevant. Keeping Epic Revan around just wasn't a good idea.

[Joran]

No. I don't know if you missed my post but I addressed this.

But the fact of the matter is that he wasn't your character. He only got to be a flipping badass with a tale of redemption because Bioware had decided that in advance.

So you have a problem with Obsidian saying that he disappeared mysteriously, but no problem with Bioware going:
"By the way, your character is an amnesiac ex-Sith Lord. Surprise!"

Double standard much?


I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes. On a serious note, I'm not quite sure why one thing out of control of my character bothered me more than the other. It's probably something similar to the suspension of disbelief. One person's "Oh, that makes sense." is another person's "Did the Galaxy's most badass, elite soldiers just lose to teddy bears?!" I also think it's one of the tropes of fantasy stories; you may think you're a peasant, but you find out that actually you're a prince. Sort of like how Luke thought he was just a peasant, but turned out to be the son of the Darth Vader, the most feared man in the Galaxy.



You can dislike something that has merits. But it's disingenuous to say that something is devoid of merit merely because you dislike it. I hate Catcher in the Rye, for example. But it's hardly the worst book ever written.

Wait, where did I ever say that the game was devoid of merit? If I implied that, I apologize; I'm just merely trying to explain why I disliked the game. I can fully understand how others can disagree with me and I respect that opinion.


While I understand your rant (and I have the same situation set with my GM in the campaign that recently ended, with me as one of the Triumvir of a country), you cannot apply the same standards between a video game and a RPG campaign that only you (and a few friends) played.


I think it was the open-ended nature of the game that made it feel more like a D&D game to me and less like a video game RPG that travels on rails. I'm actually not sure what I expected from KotOR 2; I was pretty happy with where KotOR 1 ended.

[Muz]

I think it was the open-ended nature of the game that made it feel more like a D&D game to me and less like a video game RPG that travels on rails. I'm actually not sure what I expected from KotOR 2; I was pretty happy with where KotOR 1 ended.

The problem is that for the KOTOR2 writers, dealing with this in a way that satisfies everyone who also played their own version of Revan presents a major challenge. Say they had gone with your version of what happened; then someone else is going to be irritated because it wasn't like their own playthrough. You have to pick something in order to continue on with a story (note: I am biased in that I like RPGs partially for the story-telling aspects. Big open sandbox games or MMOs don't appeal nearly as much; the latter especially.). I think they did a remarkable job of keeping things flexible as it stands.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The problem is that for the KOTOR2 writers, dealing with this in a way that satisfies everyone who also played their own version of Revan presents a major challenge. Say they had gone with your version of what happened; then someone else is going to be irritated because it wasn't like their own playthrough. You have to pick something in order to continue on with a story (note: I am biased in that I like RPGs partially for the story-telling aspects. Big open sandbox games or MMOs don't appeal nearly as much; the latter especially.). I think they did a remarkable job of keeping things flexible as it stands.

exactly. Thank you for saying my point.

In short, they could have tried to make one ending fit, then have many players be angry at them. Or they could have tried to find a way to make most ending fit, with the Revan's personnality coming back.

Maybe it wasn't perfectly executed, but don't you think, Joran, that it's still better than to have arbitrary chosen LS Male, and to stick with that all the way?

[Joran]

Maybe it wasn't perfectly executed, but don't you think, Joran, that it's still better than to have arbitrary chosen LS Male, and to stick with that all the way?


Oh, definitely, but, I would have preferred a bridge episode. A KotOR 1.5 if you will.

Something like Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate avoids this by making the "evil" and the "good" endings very similar and allowing the character to continue using the same character. Actually, can anyone think of another game that was as open-ended as KotOR 1 and had a direct sequel without controlling the same character?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh, definitely, but, I would have preferred a bridge episode. A KotOR 1.5 if you will.

Something like Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate avoids this by making the "evil" and the "good" endings very similar and allowing the character to continue using the same character. Actually, can anyone think of another game that was as open-ended as KotOR 1 and had a direct sequel without controlling the same character?

Except that Baldur's Gate 1 ended up at level 6/7, where Kotor1 ended up at level 20.

We haven't seen Mass Effect, yet. You don't know how it's gonna end up.

But you are effectively saying that KOTOR2's fault of continuity layed in KOTOR1. They wanted huge endgame between Good and Evil. and they had it. Next game had to deal with it... without breaking everything.

I have to say, the little differences between KOTOR1's DS and LS in KOTOR2 are very fulfilling. They could have handwaved it at the beginning, but they insisted in keeping small clues here and there torough the game.

[SmartAlec]

However, he decided, by himself without my input, that my former character would do something that I felt was out of character

As we don't know exactly what it is that drove your character to leave the galaxy, it's difficult to say that it's out of character. Are you saying that your character would not do what he/she did in KOTOR2 under any imaginable circumstances?

[Jeivar]

Telling me that you "had a baggage with you" before playing that video game, and because the video game maybe have put into perspective that baggage . . .

Um . . . when did I say that I "had a baggage with you"? I didn't have 'a baggage' with K2 BEFORE playing it. I never indicated anything of the kind.



You may like or dislike KOTOR2. Say that the ending is horrible (I agree), say that you dislike the characters for what they are (depth of character irrelevant to like/dislike). But saying that KOTOR2 isn't a worthy game because it shows you an aspect of morality different that the one you labeled Star Wars when you were young is stupid.

And now you're insulting me? You're insulting me because I feel a video game's plotline has a misguided philosophy at its core?
Dude, I'm free to like or dislike a VIDEO GAME for any reason. And so are you, and everyone else. Just what is your problem here? Are you arrogant or are you just not thinking things through before posting them?

[averagejoe]

Oh, definitely, but, I would have preferred a bridge episode. A KotOR 1.5 if you will.

Something like Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate avoids this by making the "evil" and the "good" endings very similar and allowing the character to continue using the same character. Actually, can anyone think of another game that was as open-ended as KotOR 1 and had a direct sequel without controlling the same character?

You keep saying "open ended," but I must admit to being confused. Maybe I think "open ended" means something different from what you do? I'm not entirely sure what you mean, is what I'm trying to say.

[Mewtarthio]

Though that had as much to do with the thuggish, Chaotic Stupid nature of most of the DS choices in the game as with anything else. For all their other virtues, Bio has never been particularly good at writing for evil characters - and I see KotOR as a particularly low point in that regard.

I managed to have a decent playthrough as a neutral character (hey, if my first class is "Scoundrel," I want to be a scoundrel!).

That's actually the main beef I have with KotoR II (besides the unfinished ending, but I still maintain that's not entirely Obsidian's fault). Playing neutral screws you over (thanks to the Prestige Classes), despite Kreia's teachings that extremes are bad and the inherently grey nature of many of the characters.

[Guancyto]

And now you're insulting me? You're insulting me because I feel a video game's plotline has a misguided philosophy at its core?
Dude, I'm free to like or dislike a VIDEO GAME for any reason. And so are you, and everyone else. Just what is your problem here? Are you arrogant or are you just not thinking things through before posting them?

Welcome to the Internet, where your opinions are bad and you should feel bad!


That's actually the main beef I have with KotoR II (besides the unfinished ending, but I still maintain that's not entirely Obsidian's fault). Playing neutral screws you over (thanks to the Prestige Classes), despite Kreia's teachings that extremes are bad and the inherently grey nature of many of the characters.

Prestige classes are nice, but you can definitely get by as a straight-class Jedi. Visas did it, after all!

I am kind of curious how you got through some of the staggeringly black-and-white situations as a neutral character in KotOR I, though. Like the "doom all the underworlders to a horrible life of misery for... 100 credits!"

[Joran]

You keep saying "open ended," but I must admit to being confused. Maybe I think "open ended" means something different from what you do? I'm not entirely sure what you mean, is what I'm trying to say.


Fair point, I'm not sure why I came up with that phrasing.

KotOR 1 basically allowed the character to make a bunch of different choices that affected the world around him. Act one way, and the environment changes, characters around him react differently. This is what I meant by open-ended, but perhaps someone can come up with a better term.

This is different compared to something like BioShock, where the only choice is whether or not to harvest little girls or JRPGs where many times the only choice is how to build a character. In KotOR, I felt like I was participating in crafting the story. In these other games (albeit, very fun and engrossing), I felt more like an outsider being told the story.

I think I meant "widely diverging endings" when I asked the question. As people have pointed out, it is possible to consider the "widely diverging endings" of KotOR and still have it result in the singular environment of KotOR 2, but it depends on the person if this could be considered plausible or reasonable. Others do, and I respect it, but I didn't feel like it was.

[Toastkart]

Then she, quite simply, died for nothing.

I emphatically disagree. If nothing else, Kreia's death meant that the Exile had successfully confronted every conceivable source of conflict and resolved them in preparation for confronting the True Sith.


The one time I finished the game, gave it away before I could finish it with other characters, my character full-heartedly swung back and forth a little between Sith and Jedi teachings for a little bit, like Kreia seemed to want, but then I realized just how...frankly...how much I despised Kreia and her wishy-washy character (not actual characterization, that was good, but how she seemed portrayed). Here was a woman who didn't have the strength of will to commit to either teaching then, in a seeming fit of child-like rage, she decides that she'll make her own philosophy just for herself and it turned out she was manipulating me towards that too. This was realized BEFORE the end of the game. At the point the Exile took a sharp turn towards the Light Side when he (in my case) realized the danger Kreia held.

Wait... wait... why is taking the tenets of two extremist positions and forming them into a third alternative considered wishy-washy? How does that follow?

I also think she had a greater strength of will than you give her credit for. Kreia started as a teacher, and upon realizing the dysfunction of the Jedi, tried to make changes from within. They threw her out, so she went to the Sith as a leader. She tried to make changes there, too, but they beat her up and stripped her of her Force powers. So what does she do? She, on her own, works at creating a middle ground, the best of both worlds as it were, and attempts to propagate it through teaching it to the Exile, it was hardly just for herself.


Yeah...the manipulative old crone drove me towards the Light Side. That's how much I disliked her. Course it didn't help that it also seems like she is just using you for revenge on Nihilus, Sion, and pretty much the Jedi too.

That may be so on one level, but overall it was part of a larger plan to break the domination that the Sith and Jedi held over the galaxy at large. As Lurker said, the intent wasn't to kill the Jedi Masters, but to show them the validity of her teaching method.



Because she doesn't need to lie. Because she told nobody about her plan. It's not like she's breaking the fourth wall and lying the audience.
I wouldn't be so sure. Kreia does, after all, say that there is no great secret. By this I mean that even though she may not need to lie any more, that's no reason to start telling 100% truth when she still has to put the Exile in a place where she will make a 'no-choice' decision like she did at Malachor V the first time.


Besides, it's consistent with her motives. Her threat to the Exile wasn't that she'd try and kill the Force or whatever, but that she would kill herself at Malachor and thereby kill the Exile through their Force-bond unless he showed up.
I see this as merely making certain that the Exile will go to Malachor, nothing more. Aside from the first instance where she loses her hand, there's no other evidence that the Force bond could be potentially fatal. Not that their information is the most credible, but when you ask the Jedi Masters, none of them seem to think that a Force bond could be fatal. Similarly, the Exile kills Kreia with no ill effects on her own well-being.


She expounds on her beliefs for quite some time: Preaching things like not being dependent on the Force and even going so far as to name it a malicious entity that seems more capable of evil than good. And all the implied history she has seems to back it up -- this is a woman who has been through a lot.

What I'm saying doesn't exclude all of this. I merely question the interpretation of the phrase "death of the Force" to be the physical death of the Force. It makes more sense if it were to mean a metaphysical death of dependency on the Force, since dependency on the Force is a major teaching point of Kreia's.

Kreia does, in fact, achieve the death of dependency on the Force, as both the Jedi and the Sith are crippled, and the Exile and her companions have been taught under Kreia's more neutral perspective.



That's actually the main beef I have with KotoR II (besides the unfinished ending, but I still maintain that's not entirely Obsidian's fault). Playing neutral screws you over (thanks to the Prestige Classes), despite Kreia's teachings that extremes are bad and the inherently grey nature of many of the characters.

I always felt that true neutral would have a special flag attached to it in the same way that being 75% of the way to dark or light side in order to get Visas and the prestige classes, but that they didn't fully implement it. As a true neutral, you still get Mira, not Hanharr, and the stats on the Exile's lightsaber crystal change, so it makes sense to me that they just didn't fully implement that system.

[Mewtarthio]

I am kind of curious how you got through some of the staggeringly black-and-white situations as a neutral character in KotOR I, though. Like the "doom all the underworlders to a horrible life of misery for... 100 credits!"

Hey, I'm a scoundrel, not a monster. By which I mean, Igear couldn't pay me enough, and I didn't like him anyway, so I just let Rukil have the journals. Not that I went out of my to get them or anything. Same thing for the rakghoul serum: I demanded Zax pay me more than he was offering. Zax refused. I threatened to sell it to the free clinic instead, thereby destroying his chances of getting a monopoly on the serum. Zax called my bluff. I wasn't bluffing.

[MeatShield#236]

I liked KOTOR 2, I liked KOTOR 1, but they were very different games.

In KOTOR 1, things are very black and white. Everyone is either good or evil with very little in-between. A lot of things get blown up and shot. It's a good old Star Wars adventure.

n KOTOR 2, very little was either good or evil, and there was mostly grey. It pretty much subverts the entire Star Wars setting. You have the jedi council not acting like good guys all the time. You have people like GO-TO acting evil but helping the Republic. It makes you think, and uses good and evil in a more realistic manner.

They should not be compared. They may be Star Wars RPGs, but they have a totally different look on the setting compared to one another.

(Yes, I know I contradicted myself there)

[LurkerInPlayground]

I always felt that true neutral would have a special flag attached to it in the same way that being 75% of the way to dark or light side in order to get Visas and the prestige classes, but that they didn't fully implement it. As a true neutral, you still get Mira, not Hanharr, and the stats on the Exile's lightsaber crystal change, so it makes sense to me that they just didn't fully implement that system.
I didn't find it odd that you could be "Light Side" and the guy who revived the Jedi Order while simultaneously refusing to believe he was a Jedi.

My later characters tended to trend towards being do-gooders who simply picked the "I'm not a Jedi" dialogue option whenever it came up. And it wouldn't be strictly inconsistent with Kreia's teachings, as it were. You just had a strict policy of non-sanctimoniousness combined with a refusal to buy into cheesy dualisms or for that matter, any specialized supernatural knowledge (beyond the more technical powers at any rate).

It's my opinion that Jolee Bind would nominally be "light side" with the ability to use nominally "dark side" powers. He's a guy who believes in altruism, he just doesn't believe that there's a point calling it the "Light Side."

[Emperor Ing]

while KOTOR II may have its perks and flaws, there is one thing I love about KotOR II that I will probably never get anywhere else

Jedi Gunmen. :smallbiggrin: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG4tG0gK_nI&feature=related) (actually a really godly build)

[Comet]

Jedi Gunmen.
:-O
That's it. I'm reinstalling KOTOR 2.

[Jibar]

:-O
That's it. I'm reinstalling KOTOR 2.

Funnily enough, I was trying that earlier.
I say trying because it seems to be forgetting to install key components to making the game work. Like the graphics. Or the patcher.
I might have to go buy another copy...

[Emperor Ing]

Hey, everyone remember how the Peragus station is supposed to have no blasters or grenades inside the facility?
Well guess who found a Bowcaster stashed away secretly inside of a dormitory footlocker? :smallbiggrin:

I also remember at one time finding a heavy zabrak blaste pistol secretly hidden inside of a plasteel cylinder. :smalltongue:

Can you say Security PHAIL?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Hey, everyone remember how the Peragus station is supposed to have no blasters or grenades inside the facility?
Well guess who found a Bowcaster stashed away secretly inside of a dormitory footlocker? :smallbiggrin:

I also remember at one time finding a heavy zabrak blaste pistol secretly hidden inside of a plasteel cylinder. :smalltongue:

Can you say Security PHAIL?
Actually, it literally is a security failure. I recall there being a log by one of the workers saying that he had smuggled in some weapons and had them locked away in a chest, probably for his personal profit or for some cause (I'm hazy on the details).

If you found it in the dorm area, then it would explain what you found. I just never got into that particular chest because it was always locked and bashing it always ended-up mashing the contents.

Considering that this is such a small part of the game, I typically don't take Security on my starting character, since I far prefer the Consular or the Guardian. Sentinels tend to fall dead last on my list, since they have less raw power going in any direction and their immunities and skills are easily replicable through other equipment or characters respectively.

[Emperor Ing]

That guy's stash consists of 2 ion grenades I think, a frag, a blaster pistol and something else I cant remember (maybe) and its found in the bed of the sealed door in the East dormitory.
The bowcaster was found in the western dormitory
and the Zabrak Pistol was found in a plasteel cylinder just after I found T3.

Im also curious as to why a republic ship would have a dark jedi robe. :smalltongue:

[Jibar]

Im also curious as to why a republic ship would have a dark jedi robe. :smalltongue:

A sith assassin was doing laundry when they docked and he had to leave it and go fight the Exile. He survived however, because he was so embarrassed he never turned his cloaking device off and decided to instead to just hang around. When Peragus blew he saved the ship by activating an emergency hyperdrive. He would eventually become Sion's personal chauffeur until the Sith Lord landed on Malachor to kill Kreia, at which point the assassin flew off to Naboo, raised a family and was elected Queen for a short while due to hilarious circumstances until he died a peaceful death in bed next to his wife. His name was Bobbi the Sith Assassin and I salute him.

[Emperor Ing]

A sith assassin was doing laundry when they docked and he had to leave it and go fight the Exile. He survived however, because he was so embarrassed he never turned his cloaking device off and decided to instead to just hang around. When Peragus blew he saved the ship by activating an emergency hyperdrive. He would eventually become Sion's personal chauffeur until the Sith Lord landed on Malachor to kill Kreia, at which point the assassin flew off to Naboo, raised a family and was elected Queen for a short while due to hilarious circumstances until he died a peaceful death in bed next to his wife. His name was Bobbi the Sith Assassin and I salute him.

I should have known. I always thought it belonged to one of the Commoners with lightsabers on Malachor with the name "Sith Marauder." I underestimated the Marauder/Lord lineage. =\