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Samb
2009-04-26, 08:39 PM
I don't see a lot of love for complete psionics and I really don't get it. Could someone tell me what the preconcieved notions about it are? Is the contend not good? Is it broken? Is it a bit too good?

I'd like to hear thoughts on why this book is so hated. As most of you all know, I am a big fan of psionics, and most of my characters are psionic. I never make a character without using this book.

Here are some points I listed in another thread:


Umm there's also linked power, synad, metapower (favorite power+metapsionic can be free!), decent racial feats, mantles and real ways to deal with undead.

Synad is like my favorite race, with an built in schism that doesn't -6 ML. The nerf AC since we always assumed you could only have one construct to start with. Have you ever been hit by a fully augmented hostile empatheic transfer? You'll think it is overpowered when you suddenly lose 90hp and that psiwarrior you almost had dead is alive and well. Trust me it sucks.

Really, what would I do without linked power?

All my psiwarrior and wilders have the mantled variant, because getting metamorphsis as early as possible is really good.


Just to add: the additional effects on dimensional door are gravy.

Froogleyboy
2009-04-26, 08:46 PM
i like personally CP

Vexxation
2009-04-26, 08:49 PM
i like personally CP

*sigh* I never made the connection.

Bluebeard
2009-04-26, 09:00 PM
The book nerfs powers players already knew and liked. Adding a supplement that makes an existing character worse is an odd choice.

The fluff doesn't jive with EPH. Psionics in the EPH are self-contained, self-powered. That's their entire schtick. Psionics in CPsi is often derived from other planes like a Cleric (see Stygian powers, Divine Mind, higher-level Lurk stuff).

Much of the content is garbage mechanically. The Lurk, for instance, is pretty solidly mediocre -- not much can improve it and beyond Mental Assault abuse, it can't do a whole lot in an optimized game. And it's one of the high points -- most of the prestige classes are terrible.

Even though it's full of powers and feats, most of them are boring. Spells are rehashed into powers. Caster feats are turned into Manifester feats. Races get extra uses of SLAs a couple times/day or increase their effective caster level for them. Mindblades turn into various weapons. Add a couple weak bonuses depending on Psionic focus and you've got 3/4 of the new material.

That isn't to say there aren't good things in the book too*, they're just buried in garbage.

*Anarchic Initiate, Ardent [the best-designed caster in the game IMO], Soulbow and Link Power come to mind.

Shinizak
2009-04-26, 09:04 PM
I hate it, the concept is good but when they tried to actually put it together it fell apart. Basically, it's an over powered system where you spend points per day to cast various abilities. Not only that, but you can spend additional points to make things like the mind thrust ability (psionic magic missile) to make it MORE powerful. Anything beyond that gets REALLY clunky (game mechanic-wise).

Not only that, but they outshine the base classes and monsters, the classes are all powered up psychic versions of existing classes (as in the psionic magic missile is upgraded to a d10... and you can choose to make it more powerful!!!). Since they have a completely different system the regular monsters and classes have literally no defenses against them unless you up grade every monster with a psionic class or variant. And the system allows for you to do thing far over level (there is a first level ability that allows you to mentally go to the astral plane) to the point where it's almost suicidal.

My friend knows all of this so he wants to play one (he pesters me about it all the time). Do yourself a favor and throw it away, wash your hands of it, and never talk about this horrible supplement ever again.

Eldariel
2009-04-26, 09:16 PM
The biggest problems are indeed the nerfs to old powers. "Hay, you can only has one Astral Construct ever!" is the most famous one, but there's a whole slew of them and they're thoroughly idiotic, fixing "problems" that don't even exist and making a bunch of archetypes completely unplayable as a consequence (said Astral Construct-focused Shapers, for example).

That said, there's a bunch of fun, good powers in the book (Temporal Reiteration, Inconstant Location, Telekinetic Buffer, the various Breath-powers, Dimensional Twister, etc.). Then there's Synchronity which breaks action economy big time, but hey, there's always a rotten apple. The book enables one of my favourite tricks ever, Save Game Mechanism (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-737126), which automatically makes a ton of crap alright in my book.


Shinizak: CPsi or no, Psions are still worse than core casters while filling the same party role. How, again, do they outshine everything? Maybe if your Wizard was throwing Fireballs, but otherwise they just don't have quite as strong abilities (spells like Glitterdust, Color Spray & co. simply kick psionics' ass, especially considering Psion's very limited school selection).

Now 3.0 Psionics was crap, but 3.5 Psionics friggin' kicks arse and offers a less powerful, more fair alternative to arcane magic. I strongly, strongly suggest you give it a try with an open mind. Let me assure you, there's nothing overpowered about it as long as you play with full transparency (Psionic resistance = spell resistance and magic can dispel psionics and the other way around)

tyckspoon
2009-04-26, 09:21 PM
I hate it, the concept is good but when they tried to actually put it together it fell apart. Basically, it's an over powered system where you spend points per day to cast various abilities. Not only that, but you can spend additional points to make things like the mind thrust ability (psionic magic missile) to make it MORE powerful. Anything beyond that gets REALLY clunky (game mechanic-wise).

Not only that, but they outshine the base classes and monsters, the classes are all powered up psychic versions of existing classes (as in the psionic magic missile is upgraded to a d10... and you can choose to make it more powerful!!!). Since they have a completely different system the regular monsters and classes have literally no defenses against them unless you up grade every monster with a psionic class or variant. And the system allows for you to do thing far over level (there is a first level ability that allows you to mentally go to the astral plane) to the point where it's almost suicidal.


The psionic 'magic missile' (a Force effect that always hits and works on pretty much everything) would be Concussion Blast. It's significantly worse than Magic Missile. And that 1st level Astral Travel power just lets you attach yourself to an astral travelling group created by a higher-level character; if you manifest it alone, nothing happens. Nevermind that regardless of whether or not you can get to the Astral Plane at low levels, surviving there is a very different task.

Really, take another look at psionics and don't go with your gut assessment. Keep in mind that under the default psionic/magic transparency rule, all the things that defend against magic also defend against psionics (in particular, power resistance and spell resistance are the same thing and you can use Dispel Magic to remove a psionic effect.) The only things psionics are straight up better at is direct damage, thanks to the +1 damage/die you can get from choosing fire/cold. And psionic characters have to pay for that privilege- if they want to do 10d6 damage with an Energy Burst, for example, they have to pay 10 pp. That's about the same as casting a 5th level spell. If a traditional arcanist wants to do that with a Fireball, he just has to be level 10.

NeoVid
2009-04-26, 09:25 PM
Shinizak- He's asking specifically about Complete Psionic, the supplemental book for psionics, not Expanded Psionics Handbook, the base book for psionics.

As for my opinion, I don't know why CP had to make so many changes that weaken some of the best balanced classes in the game while not helping the underpowered psionic classes at all.

Yeah... nerf the Psion while constantly giving the Cleric, Wizard and Druid more options. That's just what the game balance needed.

RTGoodman
2009-04-26, 09:25 PM
@Shinizak:


I hate it, the concept is good but when they tried to actually put it together it fell apart. Basically, it's an over powered system where you spend points per day to cast various abilities. Not only that, but you can spend additional points to make things like the mind thrust ability (psionic magic missile) to make it MORE powerful. Anything beyond that gets REALLY clunky (game mechanic-wise).

Not only that, but they outshine the base classes and monsters, the classes are all powered up psychic versions of existing classes (as in the psionic magic missile is upgraded to a d10... and you can choose to make it more powerful!!!). Since they have a completely different system the regular monsters and classes have literally no defenses against them unless you up grade every monster with a psionic class or variant. And the system allows for you to do thing far over level (there is a first level ability that allows you to mentally go to the astral plane) to the point where it's almost suicidal.

My friend knows all of this so he wants to play one (he pesters me about it all the time). Do yourself a favor and throw it away, wash your hands of it, and never talk about this horrible supplement ever again.

I'm thinkin' that you're talking about Psionics in general, and let me let you in on a little secret.


Rule 1 of Psionics: You can't spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level. If you miss that, you're gonna have a bad time.

Rule 2 of Psionics: Use the Psionics-Magic Transparency. It fixes almost every single problem you just mentioned with Psionics.


Honestly, Psionics is probably the most balanced "magic system" in D&D 3.x. I'm sure there'll be others to explain it, too, but really, give it a shot if it fits for your campaign world. If you know the rules, it'll be fine.

As far as Complete Psionic, I don't HATE it, but I don't particularly favor it either. It's just okay.

I think one problem people have is that it unnecessarily errata'd... something. Astral Constructs? I don't remember, but people didn't like it. Also, like someone else said, it turned some Psionics from a self-based system into one that depended on external forces. Also, some of it is just VERY lackluster.


EDIT: Oh, the ninjas.

Bluebeard
2009-04-26, 09:27 PM
Basically, it's an over powered system where you spend points per day to cast various abilities.
The Moral of the story: Psionics is broken as Hell until you read its rules.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 09:59 PM
Practiced Manifester: identical to Practiced Spellcaster, but adapted for psionics.
Soulbow in its entirety (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).
Now nobody who visits this thread has any reason whatsoever to buy a copy of Complete Psionic.

Fishy
2009-04-26, 10:03 PM
Monks are overpowered because they punch people hard enough to kill them.

But, moving on. The fluff for the Mantles is kind of lame, but it genuinely is something different- The powers don't come from planes, or from outsiders, but from Universal Truths. Of course, this is D&D and essentially every Universal Truth has a place in the cosmology already, and some of the things they picked as Universal Truths are really dumb, but there you go. The important thing is that it makes the Mantled Wilder and Mantled Psychic Warrior possible.

It also has the Soulbow, which is the best prestige class ever. Mind Bullets!

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-26, 10:08 PM
Practiced Manifester: identical to Practiced Spellcaster, but adapted for psionics.
Soulbow in its entirety (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).
Now nobody who visits this thread has any reason whatsoever to buy a copy of Complete Psionic.

Uh, Link Power and Ardent.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-26, 10:09 PM
I like the Lurk and the Ardent and the Erudite.

I still don't get the psionic hate: I keep thinking did they ever read the book or is from some novel they are thinking this broken crap is from?

Back to the book: the reasoning for the AC nerf is hilarious: because Wilders could take Expanded knowledge and make ACs of a higher level than others can and make multiple ones.
a) that is the purpose of a Wilder.
b) that didn't stop it from happening...
c) you do know they created summoned powers that do that now in Complete Psionic?

Bruce never answered that question sadly. Maybe his mind broke from reality. Granted, it was likely the other designers who messed up most of CP.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-26, 10:25 PM
People hate on psionics because they've never tried it, or when they did try it someone did something overpowered that wouldn't have been allowed if they'd read the rules. It's a classic Green Eggs and Ham scenario, someone insists that they don't like something that they've never even tried, but if they just give in and give it a shot, they'll find that they really enjoy it.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-26, 10:34 PM
Well, there's also some that just don't like the flavor, though I've never really understood that. Or a couple where the only guy to really use it was a jerk, therefore psionics is for jerks.

Samb
2009-04-26, 10:42 PM
The book nerfs powers players already knew and liked. Adding a supplement that makes an existing character worse is an odd choice.Ah thank you bluebread, this is the type of comments I was looking for. Ok I understand that the changes were frustrating, but I think they were a needed evil. Swarming astral constructs takes all the fun out of the game. I admit I was miffed at this as well.



The fluff doesn't jive with EPH. Psionics in the EPH are self-contained, self-powered. That's their entire schtick. Psionics in CPsi is often derived from other planes like a Cleric (see Stygian powers, Divine Mind, higher-level Lurk stuff).
Mantles are great. Really, try out the ardent or better yet play a mantled mantled psiwarrior or wilder. Metamorphing into a Balor is fun too.



Much of the content is garbage mechanically. The Lurk, for instance, is pretty solidly mediocre -- not much can improve it and beyond Mental Assault abuse, it can't do a whole lot in an optimized game. And it's one of the high points -- most of the prestige classes are terrible.

Lurk and Divine mind are terrible. But then again so are swashbuckler, samurai, and ninja and no one decries CA and CW as "the worst ever". The backlash CPsi gets seems a bit too over the top. The majority of the PrC are bad but anachharic initiate and soulbow are great and when you really think about it, most PrCs in other books are crap as well. Again I don't understand why CPsi gets more heat than others.




Even though it's full of powers and feats, most of them are boring. Spells are rehashed into powers. Caster feats are turned into Manifester feats. Races get extra uses of SLAs a couple times/day or increase their effective caster level for them. Mindblades turn into various weapons. Add a couple weak bonuses depending on Psionic focus and you've got 3/4 of the new material.
Boring? Maybe the authors could've spiced up the narrative a bit. Elan containment is damn near broken in my hands, a Synad linking synchronicity with schism and able to take extra turns with Synad multitask might make you think differently about the racial feats. Have you read Xeph celerity? Boring racial feats? I think you need to take a closer look.

Practiced manifester is a must for all manifesters because it affects schism, so no it is not just fluff.



That isn't to say there aren't good things in the book too*, they're just buried in garbage.

*Anarchic Initiate, Ardent [the best-designed caster in the game IMO], Soulbow and Link Power come to mind.

Strange that you say this because all it takes is a few good stuff to make a book useful. CPsi has them in bunches. Which is the real mystery IMO.

Shinizak
2009-04-26, 10:49 PM
Eldariel: My problem is that it opens a lot of opportunity to overpower the character, the guy I speak of only likes to play in order to win. Nothing more, nothing less. In the end he finds the most obnoxious combination with his powers, then wonders why I get upset...

I guess it's just the player that spoiled the system for me, but that still doesn't close the fact that it's clunky and broken. D&D very much wasn't designed with it in mind, and because of that it opens up a lot exploitation within the rules.

Samb
2009-04-26, 10:49 PM
Practiced Manifester: identical to Practiced Spellcaster, but adapted for psionics.
Soulbow in its entirety (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).
Now nobody who visits this thread has any reason whatsoever to buy a copy of Complete Psionic.

That is very pointless statement. Practised manifester is an essential feat, but not because it allows for multiclassing, but because it boosts your schism level as well.

It also doesn't address all the other things I have posted in this thread. Really try the mantled variants of wilder and psiwarrior.

I am not trying to be rude but can I take your comment to mean that people hate on this book is because they don't know the full scope of what it offers? You seem like a fellow psionics lover so I beseech you to take another look and tell me link power is bad, tell me Synad is no good, synchronicity is not godly. If you want to deprive yourself of all this book has to offer I really feel you are missing out on a lot just because of some erratas.

Flickerdart
2009-04-26, 10:52 PM
People hate on psionics because they've never tried it, or when they did try it someone did something overpowered that wouldn't have been allowed if they'd read the rules. It's a classic Green Eggs and Ham scenario, someone insists that they don't like something that they've never even tried, but if they just give in and give it a shot, they'll find that they really enjoy it.
That, or they tried it in 2E where it wasn't that well implemented at all, and drove as many men insane as multiclassing.

Aquillion
2009-04-26, 10:55 PM
Eldariel: My problem is that it opens a lot of opportunity to overpower the character, the guy I speak of only likes to play in order to win. Nothing more, nothing less. In the end he finds the most obnoxious combination with his powers, then wonders why I get upset...

I guess it's just the player that spoiled the system for me, but that still doesn't close the fact that it's clunky and broken. D&D very much wasn't designed with it in mind, and because of that it opens up a lot exploitation within the rules.No, it doesn't. You were playing with a player who obviously knew a lot about the psionics rules (or pretended to) when you didn't know much about them, so he used that to run a number on you and flat-out cheat. (By, say, using more power points per turn than his ML, I'm guessing, and convincing you to ignore Psionics-Magic transparency -- which is supposed to be the default assumption unless you want to remake your system from scratch around psionics.)

From what you've said, the player you had a bad experience with was almost certainly cheating. Note, cheating. Not optimizing, not finding broken combinations of powers, but outright breaking the rules.

Obviously you shouldn't let a player use a system that you're totally unfamiliar with... but that's not a problem with psionics, that's a problem with the guy you were playing with. Psionics is the most balanced caster system in 3.5, by far, and in the hands of anyone who is good at optimization it is severely weaker than arcane magic. Magic has many, many obnoxious combinations; psionics has virtually none, because your selection is so comparatively limited.

Samb
2009-04-26, 10:56 PM
Eldariel: My problem is that it opens a lot of opportunity to overpower the character, the guy I speak of only likes to play in order to win. Nothing more, nothing less. In the end he finds the most obnoxious combination with his powers, then wonders why I get upset...

I guess it's just the player that spoiled the system for me, but that still doesn't close the fact that it's clunky and broken. D&D very much wasn't designed with it in mind, and because of that it opens up a lot exploitation within the rules.

Sigh..... I was trying to avoid you since you derailed my thread but here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=331253

Myth 1: Psionic characters can do too much damage with one power
Answer: The single most important rule in the Expanded Psionics Handbook is that you cannot spend more power points on a power than you have manifester levels in the class the power belongs to. This is absolutely essential to understand.
What this means is that a 9th level psion can only spend 9 power points on any one manifestation.

There are two, and only two, exceptions to this rule: the Overchannel feat, which causes damage to the Psion, and the Wilder's Wild Surge, which can stun the Wilder and drain more power points than the power was augmented by. Overchannel is discussed in Myth 22.
More than this limit, Psionic characters have to pay for every extra point of damage they do. Unlike Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Clerics, the Psionic powers do not freely scale in damage. A 10th level psion manifesting the Psionic equivalent of Fireball does not do 10d6 damage as a 10th level wizard does, he does 5d6, unless he pays an extra 5 power points, effectively manifesting that power twice. This type of augmentation is what keeps psionics from being overpowered, as the power point reserve held by manifesting class is finite and, for some classes, extremely limited.

Myth 2: Psionic powers are overpowered compared to the magic versions
Answer: The vast majority of Psionic versions of magic spells are identical. Those spells that required monetary items / components instead take a very, very long time to manifest (Identify) or instead cost XP(Greater Metamorphosis).

The other powers that are not direct Psionic versions of spells typically give flexibility to the Psionic characters due to their limited options to choose from. Further, augmented powers count as essentially higher powers due to how much the Psionic character is paying to manifest them.

It should be noted that augmented powers always cost the base power level, not the level at which a normal power would cost that augmented cost. For example, Energy Ray, a 1st level power, augmented for 8 power points for a final cost of 9 power points, is still a first level power in terms of PR and Globe of Invulnerability (if you use transparency).

Myth 3: Psychic Warrior feats are too powerful
Answer: The majority of combat-enhancing Psionic feats require the expenditure of Psionic Focus, something the majority of characters will only have one of. It is important to understand that Psionic Focus requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity to gain and can only power one feat per focus.

Further, to fully utilize these feats, the character must take another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain their focus in a timely manner, otherwise they are useless for a full round while they refocus. A feat-intensive Psychic Warrior, such as one who utilizes Deep Impact + Greater Psionic Weapon each round must have all of the following feats in order to work:
Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation
For a total of six feats - and that character only gets to make one attack per round and has to use 3 power points to Hustle and provokes two attacks of opportunity in the process and can only take a five foot step. And he can't even benefit from the extra attack granted by Haste or Haste-like effects.
Meanwhile, a non-psionic character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Dervish levels or similar, can make 5+ attacks per round and take a 5' step without provoking attacks of opportunity or using power points, and without needing extra feats aside from prestige class and high-tier feat prerequisites..

Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter
Answer: It is widely accepted that the fighter as a base class is underpowered after levels 4-6, and possibly before that. Arguing that another class is too strong based upon a widely-accepted weak class is not a valid comparison, for a few reasons:
The Psychic Warrior has fewer bonus feats, a lower BAB, very limited powers / power points, and a lower hit dice than the fighter, making the fighter an easier class to use to progress into a Prestige Class. In a straight comparison, a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level Psychic Warrior, the PsyWar is going to come out ahead, but I doubt most fighter characters are going to stay straight fighter, instead opting for prestige classes that grant other benefits.

Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered
Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary.
Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike.
Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage.
For further comparison of usage, if enemies are not bunched up, meaning you can get maybe 2-3 enemies at most with the power, it might actually be better to focus on one and use an Energy Ray - a level 1 general power - which has no save, but requires a touch attack. This means that enemies with Evasion / Improved Evasion / good saving throws are more likely going to take half damage from Energy Missile, halving its effectiveness, while on Energy Ray, with a ranged touch attack, they take full. The downside to the Ray is needing to make the touch attack, or wasting the power points. Some feel, and justifiably so, that 1/2 is better than nothing. But, in the case of Improved Evasion, the best you can hope for is half (unless using cold - as you can see, the logistics of taking all the powers and permutations is pretty intense).
The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group.
The Energy / Damage portion of this power is explained in Myth6.
The targetting powers portion of this power was clarified by the author, Bruce Cordell, in an email response. He stated that the power cannot target attended objects. However, his choice of wording and memory of the game rules left many individuals feeling he was mistaken about game mechanics and, as such, is still up for debate. The spirit of the power as stated by the author, however, is that it can nottarget attended / held objects, and would be a legitimate ruling on those grounds.

Myth 6: Energy powers are overpowered
Answer: While there are four versions of every energy power, one for cold, fire, electricity and sonic each, the fact is that no matter which version you use, you are still using an energy type, which many creatures become immune to in later levels. While the Psion does have the versatility of 4 options, fire, cold, electricity, and sonic, the two strongest, fire and cold, are also the two most commonly resisted or immune. Electricity is another that is a common immunity, and sonic is balanced by decreasing the damage per die. The option of Force powers tends to halve the damage output of the Energy powers, and comes in much fewer choices.

Some argue that the fact that Psionic characters can decide on the fly what energy to use is unbalanced, but the problem with this argument is that the Psionic classes suffers from extreme lack of options. They have very few choices for powers. The Psion only stays slightly ahead of the Sorcerer until later levels, when the Sorcerer has more spells known than the Psion has powers known, and the Wilder has even fewer than that. By giving this flexibility, it keeps the Psion from being a "one trick pony" and making their limited options entirely useless in the wrong situation. The wizard can counter this by preparing new spells (given enough time, granted), but the Psion does not have this option.

Myth 7: The Erudite is broken
Answer: The Erudite was a class released in Dragon magazine prior to final revision of the XPH. As such, it is not a core or even WotC class and, as such, is to be used at your own risk. The Erudite in and of itself is not a valid argument to use against the balance of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, of which it is not explicitly a part.

Myth 8: Metapsionic feats are too powerful, they cost less than metamagic feats
Answer: Metapsionic feats cost 2 fewer power points than previously, but cost Psionic focus. Psionic focus is something that normally requires a full round action in and of itself to regain and can only be used once per feat pre-epic and is also covered in Myth 3. With yet another feat selected, Psionic Meditation, the manifester can get focus back as a move action and manifest the same round - just like a sorcerer - but has to pay for that in the cost of one of their very, very limited feats.

Myth 9: The Metamind is overpowered with Font of Power
Answer: You're kidding, right? Once per day 10 rounds of unlimited power but still restricted to manifester level of power points per manifestation is overpowered? You also lose five manifester levels, which translates into over 150 power points and, if a psion, two bonus feats. You can also never access 9th level powers as a 10th level Metamind or use Expanded Knowledge to access 8th level powers. The Metamind is commonly viewed as one of the weaker Prestige Classes in the XPH.

Myth 10: Metamorphosis, Greater is overpowered
Answer: Met, Gr is a 9th level Egoist-only power. This may seem like an obvious statement, but it is important to understand that only Egoists or those who paid lots of gp and xp via Psychic Chirurgery, which requires DM intervention anyway, can have access to this power. Further, it costs an XP penalty every time it is manifested and cannot be accessed until 17th level.

Myth 11: Schism is overpowered
Answer: There are several aspects of Schism that balance its power:
1. Telepath-only: by restricting it to only Telepaths or requiring a 9th level or higher non-Telepath to use a feat, access to this power is limited or costly to a character
2. Manifester level - 6 for manifesting: Powers at -6 Manifester levels will typically not have a high enough saving throw to be useful if using offensive powers, will not do a substantial amount of damage, or are buff/utility-type powers
3. Spellcasting: To cast a spell with the schismed mind, you must have the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, plus either Eschew Materials feat or a spell that does not require material components. Further, a Sorcerer cannot benefit from Schism at all, as he only gains a standard action, and a Stilled, Silent spell without material components takes a full round to cast. This makeup also requires the manifester, who must be an effective 7th level Psion, also have levels in Wizard and use two feats at the minimum. If the manifester isn't a Telepath, he must be an effective 9th level Psion / Wilder and also have spellcasting levels.
4. Swift actions: The Rules As Written (RAW) do not grant the schismed mind any swift actions. Further, they specifically state that the only action the schismed mind can take is a standard, purely mental action, ruling swift actions out entirely.
5. Regaining Psionic Focus: It is an official ruling until ruled otherwise that, because the Schismed mind cannot normally refocus (as it costs a full round action), they can therefore not refocus even with Psionic Meditation.
6. Limited Power Points: A Psionic character, as stressed above, has an extremely limited amount of power points to draw from. By manifesting this power and then further drawing from the pool to manifest extra powers per round, the Psionic character is burning out at roughly 1.5 the normal rate. In a multiple-encounter per day environment, this character will be nearly worthless in the last encounter if "abusing" this power.

Myth 12: Vigor is overpowered
Answer: While Vigor has one of the best HP / PP ratios when comparing similar healing-type spells converted into power points, it is offset by the fact that it is a) self only and b) temporary hit points. Temporary hit points do not stack with each other, they overlap. What this means is that unless you manifest a stronger version of Vigor than the temporary HP you have remaining, you gain no benefit, and actually waste PP if you manifest Vigor while still under the effect of a previous manifestation.

An example would be having 25 temporary hit points from a 5 pp manifestation of Vigor, then taking 10 points of damage. You would have to manifest at least a 4 pp version of Vigor to gain any benefit, as you still have 15 temporary hit points. With 4 pp, you only gain 5 effective temporary hit points, which is not very efficient.

Myth 13: Psychic Reformation is overpowered
Answer: Psychic Reformation is one of the most heatedly debated power in the XPH. There are two ways to balance this power if you see it being abused:
1. Make outside sources to purchase the service from unavailable
2. Balance the power if the character takes it themselves
Option two can be balanced in a few ways:
Make the power cost more xp - 500 xp / level or a scaling xp cost based on the number of times it has been manifested on any one target
Make the power take longer to manifest - 1 hour or day instead of 10 min
Limit the number of times the power can be manifested on any one target - once per level / five times in the characters life / etc
Rule out options - cannot learn or remove Item Creation feats at all
[edit]Impose limits on changes - require that changes must be legal at time initially acquired
Any one of or the combination of those options above help to balance this power if you, as a DM, feel it is being abused.

Myth 14: The Cerebremancer is overpowered
Answer: If you also believe that the Mystic Theurge and Psychic Theurge are overpowered, then you may have an argument. Otherwise, I suggest looking at the Mystic Theurge prestige class which does the same thing for Divine / Arcane that the Cerebremancer does for Arcane / Psionics.

One argument against the Cerebremancer is that they have synergy that the other classes don't, since a Psion / Wizard gains multiple benefits from a high intelligence and similarly for a Sorceror / Wilder with Charisma. The important part to note is that at the level a Cerebremancer can be entered, the character is 7th level and only has access to 3rd level spells and powers. Meanwhile, a straight Wizard will have 4th level spells and another bonus feat. The Cerebremancer gives up progression rate and a high caster level for increased flexibility at a lower power.

Myth 15: 1st level powers doing 20d6 damage are overpowered
Answer: A 1st level power can only do 20d6 damage in the following situations (plus a select few other variants):
20th level manifester paying 20 pp - effectively a 10th level power
15th level manifester utilizing the Empower Power feat and paying 15pp - effectively a 7th level power Empowered
17th level manifester utilizing Overchannel + Talented - effectively a 9th level power
13th level manifester utilizing Overchannel + Talented + Empower Power + Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment and using two foci (5 feats) and possibly utilizing Psionic Meditation to be able to do it more than once every three rounds (6 feats) - effectively a 7th level power Empowered
15th level Wilder Wild Surging - running a 25% chance risk of losing 15 power points. - effectively an 8th level power
All of the above are paying for, at the very least, an effective 7th level power with a metapsionic feat tacked on. Psionic powers scale because of the very limited number of powers they can learn. They are not the same effective power level at 20 power points that they are at 1 power point, which is why most have scaling DCs when you augment them. See Myth 2 on why most characters cannot do this sort of thing.

Myth 16: Psionics are more powerful than wizards due to their damage powers
Answer: While a psion can easily outdamage, on average, a wizard in a single combat due to the way powers are manifested / augmented, the depletion of that psion's power points is so rapid that, in a typical game, the next encounter or the encounter after that, he will be completely drained of power points and useless.
The psionic characters were balanced based upon the entry in the Dungeon Master's Guide that parties should have four encounters per day of an equal challenge rating to the average party level, or two encounters per day of a challenge rating two higher than the average party level. In situations where a manifester only has one or two encounters in a day's time, they are going to outdamage the majority of the other characters. However, if that same character has to deal with four or more encounters in a day, or deals with the intended quantity of encounters as set down in the DMG, they are very balanced.
If you translate spell slots a wizard gains into power points to manifest an equal level power, you will see that the numbers for the two classes are almost identical, with the Wizard actually slightly favored due to 0th level spells that psions do not gain. This is the basis for the balancing factor of 4 encounters per day.

Myth 17: The King of Smack build is overpowered
Answer: This build utilizes two expansion books, as well as the Expanded Psionics Handbook. As such, it is not a psionics-only build. Alllowing players access to Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike is the majority of the abuse potential of the King of Smack and, as such, is not a cause for arguing that the XPH, in and of itself, is overpowered.
This build also allows the elan access to Rapidstrike, which is a twist of logic and many do not feel is valid due to the nature of monstrous feats.

Myth 18: Time Regression is too strong
Answer: Time Regression is a 9th level power - Nomad only - meaning Psychic Warriors, Wilders, and non-Nomad psions can never access it without DM intervention. Only 17th level and higher Nomads can get it normally.
It has a 1000 xp cost and only works for ONE ROUND. Basically, it's a costly last-round redo in case something went horribly fubar and you had a near total-party-kill. Using this power on a regular basis is quickly going to cost you gobs of XP, something most characters would not want to do on a regular basis.

Myth 19: Astral Construct is too good for a 1st level power
Answer: Astral Construct - first and foremost, is Shaper only. All other classes / disciplines must use a feat to access this power. Second, Boost Construct, while nice, is yet another feat a Shaper / Psion must spend of their limited 12 / 13 (if human) feats in their career.

The Astral Construct is not all that different from Summon Nature's Ally / Monsters of the same level as the augmented power. You must keep in mind that druids get 9 different Summon Nature's Ally, while the Psion must augment his to get the nicer ones, effectively making a 3 pp Astral Construct equal to Summon Nature's Ally II / Summon Monster II.

If you compare apples to apples, Summon Monster V to Astral Construct level 5, you tend to find that, while in some cases, one or the other is better, typically it is not overpoweringly so.

Myth 20: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is overpowered
Answer: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is Mind-Affecting. This is very, very, very important and usually overlooked. Many, many, many creatures in D&D are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead, constructs, mindless, innate immunities, buffs, etc. Yes, this power is nice, but it is easily negated by having mindless / immune enemies. Situtationally being very good does not make a power too strong - it means it is situational.

Harm type spells, conversely, are Negative Energy - which many, many more creatures are not immune to, making it far more likely to work.

Further balancing this power is the fact that the damage dealt is limited to how much damage the manifester themselves is suffering from. A psion / psychic warrior at full health cannot use it, as they have no damage to transfer. As Telepaths tend to not have high number of HP due to d4 hit dice, a 5th level Telepath who manifests this power is probably not going to do the full damage, unless they're near death or higher level. Psychic Warriors, who will have the larger HP pool, but gain this power later in level, are limited in usage of this power by the power point cost and their power point pool.

While this is definitely a nice power, and at times can be very devastating, it does have several limiting factors.

Myth 21: Elans are overpowered
Answer: The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn. So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round.
Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot.
Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability.
The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else. Use of them on a regular basis will end up with a character who, while hard to kill, won't be able to contribute as much to combat. If you feel that these abilities need to be brought in line, limit the number of power points that can be spent on any of these abilities as 1 / HD or 1 / 2 HD, or something that suits your taste.

Myth 22: The Overchannel feat is too strong
Answer: The Overchannel feat, for those unfamiliar, allows you to boost your effective manifester level by up to 3, thereby letting you spend more power points on powers than would normally be allowed. The downsides to this are that:
a) You must spend a feat on Overchannel
b) You take damage for using the feat (1d8 for 1 point, 3d8 for 2 points, 5d8 for 3 points)
c) The boost is capped at 3 extra manifester levels and no more

To avoid taking the damage, you can take yet another feat, Talented, which allows you to avoid the damage - but only up to 3rd level powers - and you must expend psionic focus to do so. What this means is that if you want to Overchannel every round, you need a 3rd feat - Psionic Meditation - to do so, otherwise it's every other round.

This boost is offset by the extra power point cost to the already limited power point pool, the need to take anywhere from 1-3 feats out of the 12-13 you get as a (human) psion, and the fact that, for damage-based powers, after 7-8th level, Empower Power is more efficient and costs fewer power points, as well as one-two fewer feats.

Myth 23: The Slayer is overpowered
Answer:No, I don't mean Buffy. There exist two versions of this prestige class, the Illithid Slayer in the XPH and the Slayer in the SRD. The first is balanced by requiring DM intervention to meet the prerequisites, something that can easily be used to keep it out of any game. The second has no RP requirements and is the main focus of this myth.

A Psychic Warrior 6 / Slayer 10 / ClassX 4 is not commonly viewed as overpowered. Any hit to the Psychic Warrior's manifester level is huge due to the extremely limited nature that is the Psychic Warrior's manifester chart.
However, a Psion 8 / Slayer 10 / Full BAB class 2 has been seen as pretty strong, bordering on the overpowered side.

What needs to be taken into account when deciding if this prestige class is acceptable to use would be two things: other sources allowed, who is taking it. If the answer to the second is the Psychic Warrior, I would say it is not going to cause much of a problem. The Psychic Warrior will be somewhat stronger, but not overpoweringly so. Remember, he's also losing out on effectively 2 bonus feats (due to the bonus feats of the Slayer) along with a manifester level.

If the answer to the second is a Psion and the Complete series and 3.0 splatbooks are not allowed, I'd rethink allowing the generic SRD Slayer into the game. This class is decidedly stronger than the Core Eldritch Knight and grants far too much for any Psion to be able to enter into it. The psion does lose out on 3 Psion bonus feats (10, 15, 20) and 3 manifester levels, but can get 9th level powers and be considered a strong Gish build. Worst case scenario, stick with the XPH version, as then, unless you have the party hunt an Illithid, they won't be able to get access anyway.

Myth 24: Split Psionic Ray is too powerful
Answer: There are two ways to interpret Split Psionic Ray:
1) You can send the two rays at the same target, thereby doubling the damage or
2) The two targets must be separate, as the feat states two targets and not up to two targets

The way to rule on this is if the DM allows the Complete line of expansion books from WotC. Complete Arcane has Split Ray which specifically states it allows you to target the same creature with both rays, thereby making it logical that the psionic version would do the same. If Complete Arcane is not allowed, then it is recommended not to allow it, as it is quite powerful.

The power point cost is accurate in that metapsionic feats effectively cost one level less because they require focus expenditure and do not gain free damage scaling.

Myth 25: Synchronicity is overpowered
Answer: The wording of Synchronicity is actually the problem with this power. Does it grant an extra standard action? By the way it specifies move action + standard action, I'm inclined to say no, and that would be the way to keep it balanced. The overpowered view comes from those who feel that this grants them their normal allotment of moves in a round plus an extra standard action, which the power description does not state is gained.
Now, were this power Contingency-ed or Quickened, you would essentially have your first round of full actions (minus your swift) and your second round of actions where you can take the standard anytime you want. This sounds better than it is, since the power never states you get an extra standard action. While this does allow you to change your place on the initiative count based on need, it does not, nor should be thought to, grant you an extra standard action.
Even using Anticipatory Strike does not grant an extra standard action. The rules of readying an action, which this power does, clearly state that once you take your action, you have essentially used a new turn's standard action and your initiative count changes.

Myth 26: Anticipatory Strike is overpowered
Answer: There are a few things about this power that need to be understood.
First, immediate actions cannot be taken until your first turn in combat. This is often times overlooked, but you cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. The basic rules for combat also state that each character starts out flat-footed until they are able to act. So this ability cannot be used on a surprise round or before the character's first turn in initiative.
Next, the power does not grant any extra actions, per se, it simply lets you use them earlier. It also uses the swift action up for the next round, eliminating any Quickened-type effects. The next round, you must either spend another 3 pps in order to act or wait until the initiative count recycles.
While this is definitely a nice power, if you take into account that it borrows actions, not creates, uses the next swift action, and can't be done before the character would normally be able to do something, it is fairly well balanced.
Everything you ever need to know about psionics and how balanced it is. It is tl;dr and i doubt you will read it all, but I just wanted you to know that you are not new, and your concerns have been addressed many many times before.

Fizban
2009-04-26, 11:23 PM
Things I didn't like: unneeded astral construct nerf, racial SLA feats that didn't need to have their own names, planar fluff.

Things I did like: the actual new feats, the powers, the errata to powers that did need it (+1 DC per power point is wrong), some of the PrCs (Soulbow's a good example), and the Erudite.

Soi basically, I liked the actual content. It's a good book that has a lot of powers and "spell" powers that needed to be added, as well as plenty of unique new powers. It also has the Erudite, which is basically the only casting system that I really like: spontaneous casting while able to learn as many spells as you like, and with a point based system at that! (And no, it's not horribly broken, it's still worse than the wizard. Erudite gets a few different powers per day, while the wizard can have as many different, stacking effects as he has spell slots, usually 2 or 3 per class level).

Shinizak
2009-04-27, 12:07 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

Teron
2009-04-27, 12:23 AM
One issue I have with the book, aside from those already brought up, is that some of the scarce good material in it, like the erudite and some of the powers, was just reprinted from Dragon. The right three issues or so of Dragon will get you half the decent material from CP, and a fair amount of good, albeit largely non-psionic, content besides that.

ghost_warlock
2009-04-27, 12:32 AM
Problems with the Complete Psionic:


Terrible/dissonant fluff - such as the divine mind, a psionic class that relies on the divine for power points. Just...why? In the XPH psionics are introduced/described as expressing one's own potential. Catering to the will of gods is the realm of the cleric, paladin, favored soul, and numerous already-existing classes with their own sourcebooks and has no place in a psionic supplement.
Lackluster classes - lurk and most of the PrCs, much has already been said about this, above.
Flagrant redundancy - many of the feats included are simply racial feats allowing a character to use a psi-like ability 3 times rather than once/day. All of these could have easily been collapsed into a single feat, giving room for feats that may actually have been interesting.
What book is this now? - much of the content seems as if it would have been better suited to a Races of the Mind book than a book that primarily deals with characters classes (the traditional realm of the 'Complete' series), as if Wizards decided to just hastily and ham-fistedly jam both books together.
Nerfs where nerfs are unneccesary - already mentioned with regards to astral construct.
Nerfs disguised as buffs - the various feats to augment the astral construct to a specific form typically give a weaker set of abilities than a standard astral construct with abilities chosen from the menu. The class that gives the ability to create multiple astral constructs, when this is an ability characters could already do before the power was nerfed.
Obviously poor copyeditting - such as the flayerspawn psychic, wherein the text mentions using power points to augment the mind blast, yet no mechanics are given for doing so and it seems as if this ability was removed without removing references to it.
Boring/dissonant powers - a few powers giving bonuses to seldom-used skills, powers invoking the planes - particularly the celestial and infernal, which should be divine spells.
Silence where updates/clarifications are needed/wanted - predominantly thicken skin, as well as a couple other powers from XPH that can best be described as "wonky."
There's probably more that I'm forgetting at the moment.


Now, there are some jewels in the rough, but its fairly upsetting that a couple third-party books (Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential) are more imaginative, better written/editted, and just plain more fun.

JoshuaZ
2009-04-27, 12:40 AM
People have already given a few decent examples of the problems. I'm going to only list two more:

Bad illithid fluff: How the heck do the Illithid feats work? Given how Illithids reproduce the feats don't make much sense in the most naive form. I've heard three explanations that are more or less ok:

1) People with Illithid heritage aren't descended from mind flayers. They are the ancestors of the beings who will become mind flayers in the future. This is a pretty cool idea.
2) People with illithid heritage are descended from slaves who were experimented on by mind flayers.
3) People with illithid heritage are descended from people who had partial or failed implantation of mind flayer young.

Now, all three of these are interesting and decent explanations. But not a single one of them is in the book.

Practiced Manifester: For all the comments about Practiced Manifester being worthwhile, they didn't even convert it over correctly since they don't explain if you get additional bonus power points from the increased manifester level.

Samb
2009-04-27, 12:47 PM
Now now all complete books have bad fluff, useless PrCs, etc. Most only have a few gems just like CPsi. I'm not disputing that some stuff in the book can be silly but no more so than others.

Mantles are cool even fluff wise. Your mind is an open conduit to the very foundations of the multiverse Access to good and evil let's you become an angel when you metamorph. Really hard to hate on the fluff when the mechanics are so cool.

Practiced manifested specifically states that it does not increase your PSP or powers known. All psionic characters need to take this feat anyway if they plan on using schism.

Racial feats are a mixed bag as well but the ones that stand out really shine. Githyanki charm converts daze to charm. Synad multitask is so good makes taking a feat to extra uses worth it.

Josh the Aspie
2009-04-27, 06:32 PM
I'm rather curious as to why so many people say that Soul Bow is so wonderful. I've heard many people decry it. I've also heard that the soulblade prestige class is woefully underpowered.

Also, in my opinion, Psionics suffers from the same fluff problems as monks do. Psionics, and Monks, both read as beings who's source of power is within themselves, where their own mind or body is their entire focus... and yet due to suffering from MAD, they need external stat bumping items even more than other classes do, and at the same time it is -harder- to enhance their attacks by any real means, especially in the case of mind blades.

Flickerdart
2009-04-27, 06:35 PM
I'm rather curious as to why so many people say that Soul Bow is so wonderful. I've heard many people decry it. I've also heard that the soulblade prestige class is woefully underpowered.

Also, in my opinion, Psionics suffers from the same fluff problems as monks do. Psionics, and Monks, both read as beings who's source of power is within themselves, where their own mind or body is their entire focus... and yet due to suffering from MAD, they need external stat bumping items even more than other classes do, and at the same time it is -harder- to enhance their attacks by any real means, especially in the case of mind blades.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. MAD Psionics? Soulknife PrC? You're way back in 3.0, man. Check out the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-27, 06:37 PM
I'm rather curious as to why so many people say that Soul Bow is so wonderful. I've heard many people decry it. I've also heard that the soulblade prestige class is woefully underpowered.

Also, in my opinion, Psionics suffers from the same fluff problems as monks do. Psionics, and Monks, both read as beings who's source of power is within themselves, where their own mind or body is their entire focus... and yet due to suffering from MAD, they need external stat bumping items even more than other classes do, and at the same time it is -harder- to enhance their attacks by any real means, especially in the case of mind blades.

Wait, MAD? What? This isn't MADness.
This is Psionics!

Can you explain what made you think MAD? Psions use only Int, Wilders only Cha, Psiwars used War/Str (since they are melee warriors that manifest), Ardent uses Wis, etc.

Are thinking of Soulknifes?

Soulbows use Wis for damage, Dex for hit (or Wis to hit if Zen Archery from Complete Warrior is available), etc.

Josh the Aspie
2009-04-27, 07:08 PM
I am completely aware that Psions are no where near as MAD as they used to be, however many Egoist powers still require good physical stats to use well, even if all that it takes to activate them in the first place is a high Int. Where as before, you could have made a combative Psion where all you needed for your core discipline would be the stat that synergized best with your powers, whether for an Egoist, or a Nomad.

I was, however, primarily referring to the Soulknife base class.

And there IS a SoulKnife base class with the text starting on the second column of page 26, stat block on page 27.

Aquillion
2009-04-27, 07:15 PM
I am completely aware that Psions are no where near as MAD as they used to be, however many Egoist powers still require good physical stats to use well, even if all that it takes to activate them in the first place is a high Int. Where as before, you could have made a combative Psion where all you needed for your core discipline would be the stat that synergized best with your powers, whether for an Egoist, or a Nomad.

I was, however, primarily referring to the Soulknife base class.

And there IS a SoulKnife base class with the text starting on the second column of page 26, stat block on page 27.Those are a few very, very specific cases, though. Most psions just need one stat (plus Con and Dex for the same reasons everyone needs them, but those don't count.)

In fact, an Elan Psion doesn't even need Con quite so much -- they can convert power points to absorb damage at a 1-PP-for-2-HP ratio, and each bonus in their manifesting stat gives them one power point every two levels, so an Elan Psion can actually ignore Con and just pump their manifesting stat.

Of course, their con save will suck... but luckily, their other Elan power helps make up for that. Elan Psions are really among the least MAD classes in the game.

Josh the Aspie
2009-04-27, 07:16 PM
Please pardon. I apparently had a few bats in my belfry on my initial post on this thread. I was looking over at the soulbow prestige class on and off while typing up my post, and so must have smerged that when typing up a comment on the Soul Knife base class, where I smerged the name of -that- with the name of their distinctive ability, the mind blade.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-27, 07:19 PM
It is okay, Soulknife aren't so much MAD as class features are largely buyable.

The only unique feature is they can keep magic weapon (mindblade) in an antimagic field: but that is situationally useful.

Josh the Aspie
2009-04-27, 07:24 PM
Those are a few very, very specific cases, though. Most psions just need one stat (plus Con and Dex for the same reasons everyone needs them, but those don't count.)

There is also the issue of the opposed Charisma check for opposing control attempts, but wizards have the same issue, and clerics (who also need charisma for turning attempts, if they aren't using those to power other abilities) deal with it to a lesser degree.

Still, I find it odd that if a Telepath and a Wilder use the same control power on a target, the Wilder is more likely to win control of the target, unless the Telepath submits himself to Int/Cha DAD.

tyckspoon
2009-04-27, 07:27 PM
I am completely aware that Psions are no where near as MAD as they used to be, however many Egoist powers still require good physical stats to use well, even if all that it takes to activate them in the first place is a high Int. Where as before, you could have made a combative Psion where all you needed for your core discipline would be the stat that synergized best with your powers, whether for an Egoist, or a Nomad.

I was, however, primarily referring to the Soulknife base class.


Metamorphosis is the defining combat Egoist power. Your physical stats are now completely irrelevant. Use it alone or Link Power it in with another buff; Force Screen is good value for the PP. Other disciplines operate more like traditional full casters and have no particular need for anything beyond Int.

Soulknives have no actual use in-class for their mental stats. They can focus on Str and Con the same way a Fighter does. MAD is only a problem if they want to go into Soulbow instead, at which point Wisdom is preferable (and Strength can be sacked, so.. still not really MAD.) Soulknife's problem is the class just sucks.

Bluebeard
2009-04-27, 07:47 PM
There is also the issue of the opposed Charisma check for opposing control attempts, but wizards have the same issue, and clerics (who also need charisma for turning attempts, if they aren't using those to power other abilities) deal with it to a lesser degree.

Still, I find it odd that if a Telepath and a Wilder use the same control power on a target, the Wilder is more likely to win control of the target, unless the Telepath submits himself to Int/Cha DAD.

Why don't I know what you're talking about? Is this 3.0 psionics or am I missing something really really basic?

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-27, 08:08 PM
Why don't I know what you're talking about? Is this 3.0 psionics or am I missing something really really basic?

You're missing something really really basic.

If two people are mentally controlling the same target and give conflicting orders, the controllers make opposed Charisma checks to see who gets control.

It's one of those "just in case" rules - it's very unlikely to ever come up.

Chronos
2009-04-27, 08:34 PM
Quoth Samb:
Practiced manifested specifically states that it does not increase your PSP or powers known. All psionic characters need to take this feat anyway if they plan on using schism.No, it doesn't say anything about power points. It states that it doesn't increase your powers known or powers per day. Just like the spellcaster version... Except that psionic classes don't have powers per day. Maybe they meant for it not to increase power points, but whoever translated that feat over from the spell version apparently forgot that psionics works differently from spells. And do you really want someone who doesn't know the difference between psionics and spells writing a book about psionics?

And as it is, bonus power points for a high ability score depend on manifester level, and Practiced Manifester does increase manifester level, so it does actually end up increasing power points.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-27, 08:50 PM
You're missing something really really basic.

If two people are mentally controlling the same target and give conflicting orders, the controllers make opposed Charisma checks to see who gets control.

It's one of those "just in case" rules - it's very unlikely to ever come up.

True, but charmed people must also be ordered with opposed Charisma checks. That happens more often (because Charm Person, etc is before the mind dominate stuff).

Aquillion
2009-04-27, 08:53 PM
Quoth Samb:No, it doesn't say anything about power points. It states that it doesn't increase your powers known or powers per day. Just like the spellcaster version... Except that psionic classes don't have powers per day. Maybe they meant for it not to increase power points, but whoever translated that feat over from the spell version apparently forgot that psionics works differently from spells. And do you really want someone who doesn't know the difference between psionics and spells writing a book about psionics?

And as it is, bonus power points for a high ability score depend on manifester level, and Practiced Manifester does increase manifester level, so it does actually end up increasing power points.Also, it really sort of makes sense for it to increase your power points. The reason the spellcaster version doesn't increase your spells/day is because doing that will also grant you access to higher level spell slots -- but the same isn't true for manifesting. An additional handful of power points is a much, much smaller benefit than a caster reaching a whole higher level of spells.

tyckspoon
2009-04-27, 09:01 PM
True, but charmed people must also be ordered with opposed Charisma checks. That happens more often (because Charm Person, etc is before the mind dominate stuff).

Only if you are asking them to do "something they wouldn't ordinarily do." Generally, when you're applying Charm you want the target to do something they already do normally (fight, provide information, open a door, etc); you just want them to do it for you. And since Charm causes them to consider you a very good friend, that's not really a problem. The biggest conflict is probably when you Charm somebody mid-fight and ask them to fight against the people they normally work with, since Charm doesn't remove old loyalties. You can probably get them to sit it out, tho.

JoshuaZ
2009-04-28, 08:05 PM
Also, it really sort of makes sense for it to increase your power points. The reason the spellcaster version doesn't increase your spells/day is because doing that will also grant you access to higher level spell slots -- but the same isn't true for manifesting. An additional handful of power points is a much, much smaller benefit than a caster reaching a whole higher level of spells.

Yes, from a balance standpoint since spells are essentially automatically augmented a bit for damage die, they are effectively getting what amounts to the extra power points for free, many times over. Even when you get the extra power points the feat still isn't as good as the equivalent feat for a wizard or sorcerer.